Who's really paying tax in this country???

[digimon7068]

According to statistics released yesterday by the Department of Treasury, during 2008 and 2009 (the Department is a little behind the times...it's the goverment ), the upper one-fifth of US households paid 67.9% percent of the total federal taxes, the lower one-fifth paid 0.3% of the total federal taxes and the one-fifth in the middle paid 9.4% of the total federal taxes.

Further, during the economic downturn, the top 1% of households suffered the greatest losses in income (a 36% decrease), over the period from 2007 through 2009.

Finally, the overall average effective federal tax rates of 18% in 2008 and 17.4% in 2009 were the lowest during the 30-year period from 1979 through 2009.

Sometimes fact is stranger than fiction, yes??

 

[simply dave]

...Further, during the economic downturn, the top 1% of households suffered the greatest losses in income (a 36% decrease), over the period from 2007 through 2009.

What is not stated is that said 1%'ers feel the loss less than low to middle incomes. When one is earning 1.5 million/year, does one feel a 36% loss of income vs a household earning 40K/year that loses only 20%. The answer is obvious. The top household might have to vacation in the Florida Keys instead of the Cayman Islands whereas the middle/low household might have to carpool because it's either gas money or food on the table.

It's a matter of perspective. Oh...and I'm going to trust everything the gov't throws out to me as gospel...especially when coming from a department headed up by Geithner ( a former Wall Streeter himself...such an incestuous relationship the corporate/govt machine.).

 

[digimon7068]

What is not stated is that said 1%'ers feel the loss less than low to middle incomes. When one is earning 1.5 million/year, does one feel a 36% loss of income vs a household earning 40K/year that loses only 20%. The answer is obvious. The top household might have to vacation in the Florida Keys instead of the Cayman Islands whereas the middle/low household might have to carpool because it's either gas money or food on the table.

It's a matter of perspective. Oh...and I'm going to trust everything the gov't throws out to me as gospel...especially when coming from a department headed up by Geithner ( a former Wall Streeter himself...such an incestuous relationship the corporate/govt machine.).

it's just government stats...they tend to leave the emotion out of it...and from my chair, those statistics are a fairly accurate depiction of the current state of affairs...and from a "pain" perspective, everything is relative, economies of scale, you dig??

oh and, the fact that the published statistics seem to fly in the face of what the current administration would like you to believe, makes me feel a little more warm and fuzzy about the probable validity.

 

[digimon7068]

oh yeah...welcome back, dave. don't take me or anyone else around here too seriously...we don't take ourselves seriously...no one else should either...and, if you choose to do so?? you do so at your own peril.

most of us come here to blow off some steam, bust some balls and make fun of the french...there are some real smart and real serious people around here but pretty much all of them check that shit at the door...this is a chat board on a steroid website...this is the island of misfit toys.

 

[digimon7068]

oh and, i get my news from npr, john stewart, stephen colbert (the only frog that gets a pass), mike & mike, howard stern, and the myriad of tax, economic, financial and valuation periodicals that i read on a daily basis...you asked.

 

[simply dave]

Thanks...Been in Portland preparing my mother's house for her return after her amputation and rehab. Had to clear out a lot of "trip hazards" (she lost a leg), install new lighting, grab bars in the showers...a lot of stuff.

 

[digimon7068]

Thanks...Been in Portland preparing my mother's house for her return after her amputation and rehab. Had to clear out a lot of "trip hazards" (she lost a leg), install new lighting, grab bars in the showers...a lot of stuff.

see...now that's ^^^^ some serious shit right there...but, this place?? knot serious.

 

[billfred]

According to statistics released yesterday by the Department of Treasury, during 2008 and 2009 (the Department is a little behind the times...it's the goverment ), the upper one-fifth of US households paid 67.9% percent of the total federal taxes, the lower one-fifth paid 0.3% of the total federal taxes and the one-fifth in the middle paid 9.4% of the total federal taxes.

Further, during the economic downturn, the top 1% of households suffered the greatest losses in income (a 36% decrease), over the period from 2007 through 2009.

Finally, the overall average effective federal tax rates of 18% in 2008 and 17.4% in 2009 were the lowest during the 30-year period from 1979 through 2009.

Sometimes fact is stranger than fiction, yes??

LIES. Rich people should pay MAOR.

 

[billfred]

BTW - what does a CPA know about who is paying taxes. You are completely full of shit.

 

[digimon7068]

LIES. Rich people should pay MAOR.

num6ers don't lie

 

[-SD-]

I pay taxes, digi can attest for sure

 

[billfred]

I pay taxes, digi can attest for sure

fucking 1% er

 

[digimon7068]

I pay taxes, digi can attest for sure

you probably won't this year, though...provided that your partnership cums to fruition.

 

[SpyWizard]

What is not stated is that said 1%'ers feel the loss less than low to middle incomes. When one is earning 1.5 million/year, does one feel a 36% loss of income vs a household earning 40K/year that loses only 20%. The answer is obvious. The top household might have to vacation in the Florida Keys instead of the Cayman Islands whereas the middle/low household might have to carpool because it's either gas money or food on the table.

It's a matter of perspective. Oh...and I'm going to trust everything the gov't throws out to me as gospel...especially when coming from a department headed up by Geithner ( a former Wall Streeter himself...such an incestuous relationship the corporate/govt machine.).

sd, with that logic, we should push the price of gas to .99 cents per gallon and let the 1% pay any difference, that would give the greatest fastest relief to the "Poor" and middle class.. and effect the bottom line of more americans than any other thing..

 

[simply dave]

sd, with that logic, we should push the price of gas to .99 cents per gallon and let the 1% pay any difference, that would give the greatest fastest relief to the "Poor" and middle class.. and effect the bottom line of more americans than any other thing..

Hmmm...nope. The game is rigged. The "market" is controlled, subsidized, and directed through the corporatocracy called the US government in favor of the wealthy. We are witnessing an ever increasing schism between the wealthy and poor with the middle class shrinking.

We already have price controls on gasoline (and far too many other commodities for that matter). What we don't need is more regulation to favor the wealthy.

Quite frankly, I think we're too far down this road to turn around. It's going to take drastic (and most likely violent) measures to effect a change now.

 

[digimon7068]

Hmmm...nope. The game is rigged. The "market" is controlled, subsidized, and directed through the corporatocracy called the US government in favor of the wealthy. We are witnessing an ever increasing schism between the wealthy and poor with the middle class shrinking.

We already have price controls on gasoline (and far too many other commodities for that matter). What we don't need is more regulation to favor the wealthy.

Quite frankly, I think we're too far down this road to turn around. It's going to take drastic (and most likely violent) measures to effect a change now.

the market is controlled...by artificially low interest rates...subsidized by the chinese...provided they keep buying our paper...the day that they quit buying our paper, interest rates will go up and the market will be more fucked up than it is right now.

 

[Mr. dB]

According to statistics released yesterday by the Department of Treasury, during 2008 and 2009 (the Department is a little behind the times...it's the goverment ), the upper one-fifth of US households paid 67.9% percent of the total federal taxes, the lower one-fifth paid 0.3% of the total federal taxes and the one-fifth in the middle paid 9.4% of the total federal taxes.

Further, during the economic downturn, the top 1% of households suffered the greatest losses in income (a 36% decrease), over the period from 2007 through 2009.

Finally, the overall average effective federal tax rates of 18% in 2008 and 17.4% in 2009 were the lowest during the 30-year period from 1979 through 2009.

Sometimes fact is stranger than fiction, yes??

That upper 1/5th also owns over 97% of total assets in America.

 

[digimon7068]

That upper 1/5th also owns over 97% of total assets in America.

my statistics came from the department of treasury and yours came from......???

 

[brownbrown]

Federal taxes are a small part of the system. Payroll/ state and local taxes/sales taxes are a huge part.

 

[digimon7068]

Federal taxes are a small part of the system. Payroll/ state and local taxes/sales taxes are a huge part.

but, federal tax and who is actually paying it, is a hotly debated topic everywhere...and the department of treasury report is clearly at odds with the liberal rhetoric.

 

[75th]

but, federal tax and who is actually paying it, is a hotly debated topic everywhere

Since when?

The only time it's discussed is when the Fox news/low information/plunkey crowd try to get away by saying that 50% of Americans dont pay any taxes.

 

[digimon7068]

Since when?

The only time it's discussed is when the Fox news/low information/plunkey crowd try to get away by saying that 50% of Americans dont pay any taxes.

you're kidding, right?? everyone is screaming tax-the-rich...turn's out the top 20% are paying 68% of the tax, while the bottom 20% are paying 0.3% of the tax.

 

[75th]

you're kidding, right?? everyone is screaming tax-the-rich...turn's out the top 20% are paying 68% of the tax, while the bottom 20% are paying 0.3% of the tax.

Of the federal income tax, you mean.

 

[miplank]

Someone lock this piece of shit thread

 

[wootoom]

Nice fucking piece of shit thread you pathetic fucktards

 

[miplank]

I'm pacing

 

[simply dave]

Someone lock this piece of shit thread

Is it making your brain explode?

 

[miplank]

Is it making your brain explode?

U talkin to me? u geriatric fuck

 

[simply dave]

U talkin to me? u geriatric fuck

Yeah, I'm talking to you, but it was under the assumption that you had a brain. My bad. Carry on.

 

[miplank]

Yeah, I'm talking to you, but it was under the assumption that you had a brain. My bad. Carry on.

Were you ever in the military?

 

[wootoom]

Here we go.....

 

[SpyWizard]

I don't pay taxes on $64000 every year, per person, put it retirement funds.. further if access to the money is needed i simply take a loan against it from myself. the % terms are very good..

and the 15% dividend that I pay to myself and my wife is way better than paying state federal and social security taxes..

 

[simply dave]

Were you ever in the military?

There's a "nifty" little feature called "search"...Perhaps you should try it. You do know what search means, yes? **grin**

 

[miplank]

The last thing you want is for me to start searching

 

[simply dave]

The last thing you want is for me to start searching

Yeah...OK kiddo. Some of you kids are fodder for us old fucks (although I prefer the term: curmudgeon...That's not too many syllables for you, is it?). You're too much fun to fuck with. Go take your BP meds now as I'd hate to see you "pop" over this. **grin**

 

[digimon7068]

Yeah...OK kiddo. Some of you kids are fodder for us old fucks (although I prefer the term: curmudgeon...That's not too many syllables for you, is it?). You're too much fun to fuck with. Go take your BP meds now as I'd hate to see you "pop" over this. **grin**

he's not goofing around...give him 10 minutes and he'll know everything there is to know about you...at least as far as the interwebs are concerned...doubt me?? dare him

 

[digimon7068]

Of the federal income tax, you mean.

well, duh! my statistics were gleaned from the department of treasury...that was kinda the point of the thread.

 

[digimon7068]

Were you ever in the military?

just in case you're confused dave...you're being baited ^^^^

 

[digimon7068]

I don't pay taxes on $64000 every year, per person, put it retirement funds.. further if access to the money is needed i simply take a loan against it from myself. the % terms are very good..

and the 15% dividend that I pay to myself and my wife is way better than paying state federal and social security taxes..

are you aware of the whole "reasonable compensation" thing that the irs can and will use to beat you over the head with?? might wanna do a little research before you get yourself an examination notice...you might wanna check into a new tax guy too...oh and, i'm available...and i'm familiar with all 50 states.

 

[digimon7068]

The last thing you want is for me to start searching

welcome back

 

[75th]

well, duh! my statistics were gleaned from the department of treasury...that was kinda the point of the thread.

And the point of my post. Nobody disputes who pays what percentage of federal income taxes.

Side note: per the usual, Stewart explains things brilliantly.

World of Class Warfare - The Poor's Free Ride Is Over - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart - 08/18/11 - Video Clip | Comedy Central

 

[miplank]

And the point of my post. Nobody disputes who pays what percentage of federal income taxes.

Well, not if you're on foreign soil at the time...

 

[75th]

stfu

 

[miplank]

see if I ever share any lobby candy with you in a consumer based economy again!

 

[75th]

what about a california roll?

 

[miplank]

you'll need to speak with my AA

 

[musclemom]

I'm confused. 67.9% + 9.4% + 0.3% adds up to 77.6%, right? I suck at math but still ...

Okay, we are talking about 100% of the taxes being paid, correct? (as opposed to owed) Those numbers should come out to be 100% or am I missing something???

 

[kx250rider]

I'll tell you EXACTLY who it is; SMALL BUSINESSES!!!!!!!!! That's why the system is broken, and Obama hasn't a clue. It's all public record, and I have an honest accountant, so I'll lay it out right here & now: Our 2010 return reflected $2 mil gross income, and we paid $443K in federal taxes, and $20K CA taxes (we're TX residents but have one small business entity in CA in order to be legal). Now, according to Obama, that makes us RICH (?????). But the truth and fact is, that by the time we paid all of the expenses for the business, we took home less than $200K, and put some of that aside for business growth.

AND, still the Dems might say we're sitting nice & fat, but I debate that. Some years we might have an actual loss, and will have drawn out of savings to pay the bills. Sure in those years we haven't had to pay taxes, but taxing the SH*T out of our small business on good years, leaves no money to hire more people, or to put away to pay the bills when we retire, etc etc. If they want to unfairly tax people they consider "rich", then let's stop taxing small businesses, and tax the people on ONLY the money they actually get to keep after they pay the entire expenses of their businesses. Yes, they let us deduct, but it's pennies on the dollar. A joke. Spend $100K on new avocado trees and irrigation, and maybe get to write off $7K of it. But still pay income tax on the other $93K which was put back into the business; resulting in more avocados to need picking by paid workers. Jeez; makes me angry to even write this!

Charles

 

[75th]

Gimme a break.

Ask any competent business owner what they would prefer: a 5% tax break or 5% more customers. 99 out of 100 will opt for the latter.

We need to start focusing on supporting the real job creators - the middle class.

 

[SpyWizard]

I'll tell you EXACTLY who it is; SMALL BUSINESSES!!!!!!!!! That's why the system is broken, and Obama hasn't a clue. It's all public record, and I have an honest accountant, so I'll lay it out right here & now: Our 2010 return reflected $2 mil gross income, and we paid $443K in federal taxes, and $20K CA taxes (we're TX residents but have one small business entity in CA in order to be legal). Now, according to Obama, that makes us RICH (?????). But the truth and fact is, that by the time we paid all of the expenses for the business, we took home less than $200K, and put some of that aside for business growth.

AND, still the Dems might say we're sitting nice & fat, but I debate that. Some years we might have an actual loss, and will have drawn out of savings to pay the bills. Sure in those years we haven't had to pay taxes, but taxing the SH*T out of our small business on good years, leaves no money to hire more people, or to put away to pay the bills when we retire, etc etc. If they want to unfairly tax people they consider "rich", then let's stop taxing small businesses, and tax the people on ONLY the money they actually get to keep after they pay the entire expenses of their businesses. Yes, they let us deduct, but it's pennies on the dollar. A joke. Spend $100K on new avocado trees and irrigation, and maybe get to write off $7K of it. But still pay income tax on the other $93K which was put back into the business; resulting in more avocados to need picking by paid workers. Jeez; makes me angry to even write this!

Charles

yep I'm with ya but in my case i won't hire anyone if I can't pay you on a 1099 I won't hire you, it's that simple but I do service work more than anything..

 

[simply dave]

Side note: per the usual, Stewart explains things brilliantly.

World of Class Warfare - The Poor's Free Ride Is Over - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart - 08/18/11 - Video Clip | Comedy Central

Awesome. I love Jon Stewart. "Those food chillin' mutherfukkers!" LOL! And wow, some of the comments by Hannity, O'Reilly, Coulter...absolutely disgusting. To think I used to listen to them...ugh.

 

[kx250rider]

Gimme a break.

Ask any competent business owner what they would prefer: a 5% tax break or 5% more customers. 99 out of 100 will opt for the latter.

We need to start focusing on supporting the real job creators - the middle class.

The bottom line is that they're punishing those who are willing to stick our necks out to make a business successful, and the tax law deck is stacked so badly against the small business owner, that it's easier to just go get a job someplace. Herewith is a vicious circle... No small business = no jobs to "just go get". I'm sure there are many businesses who would say they'd like 5% more customers better than a 5% tax break, and I might be one of them. But I'm stating that a 100% tax break on every penny that is reinvested in the business, is what will rocket the economy back to what it was in the 1950s at it's best. Not a deduction of 30% against a new 40% tax, or any of the other hare-brained schemes they keep trying to fool the voters with.

Bending the topic, I still say that a flat ta across the whole country is the best idea. 10%, 18%; whatever... And make that only due on what a small business owner gets for him/herself after paying the bills on the business. That's fair, because those who work smart and work hard, will make big $$$, and those who have other priorities, will go get decent jobs and be happy too. Then if they want to, they can change course and go for the big time whenever they want to.

Until anyone has actually owned a business and felt how much work and responsibility is involved, they don't understand why we'd be so angry at being punished for success with high taxes and prejudiced laws. Obama has never felt it, and at least he's honest enough to admits that.

Charles

 

[Mr. dB]

you're kidding, right?? everyone is screaming tax-the-rich...turn's out the top 20% are paying 68% of the tax, while the bottom 20% are paying 0.3% of the tax.

What's the problem with that, when you consider the percentage of the total income they're pulling?

 

[wootoom]

A high tax bracket employee in Holland pays 52% tax a year

 

[digimon7068]

What's the problem with that, when you consider the percentage of the total income they're pulling?

i don't have a problem with it...i'm just pointing out the fact that the statistics seem to contradict the rhetoric...ya know, the whole "the rich aren't paying their fair share" rhetoric? looks to me like the ones that can afford it are picking up the biggest part of the tab. should the tab be bigger?? our deficit would suggest so...but, that wasn't the point of my thread.

 

[youpissmeoff]

A high tax bracket employee in Holland pays 52% tax a year

And there are more Dutch living outside the Netherlands than in it.

 

[digimon7068]

I'm confused. 67.9% + 9.4% + 0.3% adds up to 77.6%, right? I suck at math but still ...

Okay, we are talking about 100% of the taxes being paid, correct? (as opposed to owed) Those numbers should come out to be 100% or am I missing something???

uhhh, the statistics only addressed 3 of the 5 deciles...i guess that they figured the other 2 were kinda self-explanatory (i.e., they were in between)

 

[digimon7068]

I'll tell you EXACTLY who it is; SMALL BUSINESSES!!!!!!!!! That's why the system is broken, and Obama hasn't a clue. It's all public record, and I have an honest accountant, so I'll lay it out right here & now: Our 2010 return reflected $2 mil gross income, and we paid $443K in federal taxes, and $20K CA taxes (we're TX residents but have one small business entity in CA in order to be legal). Now, according to Obama, that makes us RICH (?????). But the truth and fact is, that by the time we paid all of the expenses for the business, we took home less than $200K, and put some of that aside for business growth.

AND, still the Dems might say we're sitting nice & fat, but I debate that. Some years we might have an actual loss, and will have drawn out of savings to pay the bills. Sure in those years we haven't had to pay taxes, but taxing the SH*T out of our small business on good years, leaves no money to hire more people, or to put away to pay the bills when we retire, etc etc. If they want to unfairly tax people they consider "rich", then let's stop taxing small businesses, and tax the people on ONLY the money they actually get to keep after they pay the entire expenses of their businesses. Yes, they let us deduct, but it's pennies on the dollar. A joke. Spend $100K on new avocado trees and irrigation, and maybe get to write off $7K of it. But still pay income tax on the other $93K which was put back into the business; resulting in more avocados to need picking by paid workers. Jeez; makes me angry to even write this!

Charles

the new health care bill is going to KILL small business...balee dat! small business owners now have a gun to their head...you either pick up 50% of every employee's health insurance, or you pay a non-deductible penalty. oh and, the kicker?? the biggest employers (walmart, mcdonalds, et al)?? they were allowed to "opt-out" of the new bill...who says democrats are for the common man??? hahahaha *sigh*

 

[simply dave]

..oh and, the kicker?? the biggest employers (walmart, mcdonalds, et al)?? they were allowed to "opt-out" of the new bill...who says democrats are for the common man??? hahahaha *sigh*

Agreed. Kinda convenient, don't you think?

 

[digimon7068]

Agreed. Kinda convenient, don't you think?

the sad thing is that walmart, mcdonalds, et al, can afford the expense...they'll just pass it directly on to you and me...the regular guy has a very limited ability to pass on any of those costs...he'll wind up eating most of it himself...if he survives at all.

i'm not a lawyer but, it has to be a violation of some kind of (constitutional) commerce clause when the government mandates a cost that is entirely to the detriment of small businesses only...it is going to create a government-mandated anti-competitive situation. public law 86-272 prohibits (for example) pennsylvania from taxing ohio businesses (that do business in pa) different from pa businesses because, to do so would be a restriction of interstate commerce and a detriment to the free market. so, how can the federal government enact legislation that clearly favors one group of businesses over another, and is to the detriment of the free market??

maybe obama really IS a socialist??

 

[EnderJE]

maybe obama really IS a socialist??

If he was socialist, then I think he would gander to the European view and pass the laws on everyone vs only a select few.

 

[digimon7068]

If he was socialist, then I think he would gander to the European view and pass the laws on everyone vs only a select few.

actually, his extremely burdensome and potentially painful healthcare bill only leaves out the select few...which is exactly the way that things are done in socialist countries...the impotent folks get to eat steak and everyone else eats shit...there are rich people in socialist countries too...the goverment just gets to pick and choose who they are.

 

[klsanders]

I say we vote Charles for president, his view is spot on with the small business in mind.

 

[EnderJE]

I say we vote Charles for president, his view is spot on with the small business in mind.

Okay, "Charles - alter".

 

[EnderJE]

actually, his extremely burdensome and potentially painful healthcare bill only leaves out the select few...which is exactly the way that things are done in socialist countries...the impotent folks get to eat steak and everyone else eats shit...there are rich people in socialist countries too...the goverment just gets to pick and choose who they are.

I'm not sure that I agree with your view of the socialist countries. We seem to be at different degrees of the same point.

One additional trait that I'm seeing in socialist countries is the lack of 'extremism' and more trust in the government (thinking of Denmark, Norway, etc).

It goes back to my freedom to kill yourself with food example. Bloomburg wants to bad the large soda and people are fighting him for it. I wouldn't expect to see that type of resistance in socialist type countries.



In the end, it doesn't really matter. You or I are not able to change the current overall conditions and these thread reduce our chances for QT to post up boob pics.

 

[-SD-]

you probably won't this year, though...provided that your partnership cums to fruition.

Shes looking better and better

 

[digimon7068]

I'm not sure that I agree with your view of the socialist countries. We seem to be at different degrees of the same point.

One additional trait that I'm seeing in socialist countries is the lack of 'extremism' and more trust in the government (thinking of Denmark, Norway, etc).

It goes back to my freedom to kill yourself with food example. Bloomburg wants to bad the large soda and people are fighting him for it. I wouldn't expect to see that type of resistance in socialist type countries.



In the end, it doesn't really matter. You or I are not able to change the current overall conditions and these thread reduce our chances for QT to post up boob pics.

touche...when i think of socialism i tend to fixate on cold war russia and the other eastern bloc countries, where there were doctors and ditch-diggers pulling the same wage, and there was a privileged, elite class that got to live kings.