Winstrol - The pros and cons of oral and injectable!!!

[marvelous54]

also, quick question

would running injectable winstrol at 50mg EOD be fine on the liver for 8 weeks?

thinkin about runnin a testosterone propionate/winstrol cycle this summer

I've ran it for 8wks with no problems but everyone is different. I wouldn't go anylonger than 8wks.

 

[MercDD]

Didn't Anthony Roberts write an article a few years ago comparing inj/oral winstrol, and say the same stuff ??


Merc.

 

[marvelous54]

Didn't Anthony Roberts write an article a few years ago comparing inj/oral winstrol, and say the same stuff ??


Yes he did.

There are a lot of related studies concerning the effects of oral v. inj drugs on SHBG. I know many feel there is no difference but I honestly think there is. That being said if you are taking them with other AAS then I would say you wouldn't SEE much of a diference - oral has better synergy with the other AAS giving you better gains, inj has better nitrogen retention giving you better gains.

I personally prefer oral because I always run it with other AAS. The difference in the effect on the liver is not going to be great over a short period of time like 6 - 8 weeks.

 

[st8grad]

Going through digestion in the stomach is not first pass. It gets broken down in the stomach to be carried to the liver before it can be distributed to the circulatory system. Going to the liver through the hepatic portal is the first pass. The 17-AA lets the oral drug survive this first pass and then it enters the bloodstream. If it wasn't 17-AA the liver could actually metabolize the drug and only a small fraction would make it to the circulatory system.

Once the drug makes it past this first pass effect it gets metabolized just like any other drug right?

That is to say that it still gets metabolized by the liver but not in the same manner as if you ingest a drug through the GI tract. Since it survives first pass metabolism it doesn't matter which way you take it.

If the drug wasn't 17AA, then yes, the injectable would yield better results.

So in a nut shell the inject circumvents having to go through this first pass, but adding 17aa also allows the drug to survive first pass. So it doesn't matter.

We really need a pharmacology expert to weigh in on this. Any PharmD's or any Pharma drug development guys in the house?

If there is any benefit it would be that more of the drug is absorb IM as opposed to PO. But there isn't any evidence to support that since it is 17aa. If more of the drug does reach the circulatory system via injection then it is bound to be very minor. So if the difference is maybe 10-20mgs per week, I doubt that would be enough to be all that relevant.

 

[almost-pro]

i've always gotten great results from either drinking or taking tabs, so I never saw a need in poking myself any more then I have to. The one thing about winstrol that I do not like is that it litereally screws up my lipid profile something awful! At the end of a winstrol run I will have basically 0 good cholesterol.

 

[marvelous54]

1. Actually first-pass metabolism includes gastrointestinal lumen, gut wall enzymes, bacterial enzymes, and hepatic enzymes. Put simply first-pass metabolism occurs in both the gut and the liver.

2. 17 alpha-alkylation is used to increase the amount of the drug that makes it through the first-pass. Not all of the drug survives first-pass so the amount that actually circulates through the blood is not as high as it would have been if injected. This is also the reason the oral has better synergy with other anabolic androgenic steroids. Remember sex hormone binding globulin is produced in the liver, therefore the winstrol has it's chance to free up some test by lowering the ammount of sex hormone binding globulin in the body.

 

[marvelous54]

They're both 17 alpha-alkylated. It doesn't matter which one you use. There has been studies on it and the real world results show that you can't tell the difference. I can't shoot it so I take the tabs. But YES, before anyone asks, YOU CAN DRINK WINSTROL!...

Hows it going Mak? I would say you are right about not being able to tell the difference, I mentioned earlier that since most take Winstrol with other AAS the benefits of each would likely be a wash since the helps reduce SHBG and frees up test and the injectable has better nitrogen retention.

I would however like to read the studies you are referring to if it isn't a problem to post them.

 

[JohnnyWest]

The 17 alpha-alkylated was added to Winstrol (and other orals) so more of the drug could survive the first-pass thus allowing a larger portion of the drug to reach the bloodstream. At this time the drug circulates in the bloodstream until it is absorbed by another tissue, preferably muscle, and it makes its way back to the liver for the second-pass metabolism (the second-pass metabolism takes place in the liver only).

injectable winstrol is also methylated - hence why you can drink it

The injectable goes directly into the bloodstream and skips first-pass metabolism. Therefore more of the drug is available for other tissues to absorb (i.e. preferably muscle). What does not get absorbed makes its way to the liver for what is called second-pass metabolism.

true, but the difference in available hormone is not hugely signifficant, othe then the time it takes the injected depot to release. possiby causing the injectable to release less hormone longer

Hepatoxicity

1. Oral - the drug in its full capacity must undergo first-pass metabolism and the portion that is left once it travels through the bloodstream will undergo second-pass metabolism.

2. Injectable - the drug goes directly into the blood stream and is more readily available for muscle absorption, the portion not absorbed goes through a much less rigid second-pass metabolism.

true, but the drug still needs to be removed by the liver, and it is still quite toxic on second pass

Obviously it is far less toxic to inject winstrol rather than ingest it. Also injecting allows more of the drug to be available for muscle absorption and in turn has the advantage assisting in building more new lean muscle mass than the oral version due to better nitrogen retention.

most people say there is no difference, but either way running 75mg oral instead of 50mg would negate any differences

agree on some things, comments in red

 

[marvelous54]

agree on some things, comments in red

my reply in blue


The 17 alpha-alkylated was added to Winstrol (and other orals) so more of the drug could survive the first-pass thus allowing a larger portion of the drug to reach the bloodstream. At this time the drug circulates in the bloodstream until it is absorbed by another tissue, preferably muscle, and it makes its way back to the liver for the second-pass metabolism (the second-pass metabolism takes place in the liver only).

a.)injectable winstrol is also methylated - hence why you can drink it

The injectable goes directly into the bloodstream and skips first-pass metabolism. Therefore more of the drug is available for other tissues to absorb (i.e. preferably muscle). What does not get absorbed makes its way to the liver for what is called second-pass metabolism.

b.)true, but the difference in available hormone is not hugely signifficant, othe then the time it takes the injected depot to release. possiby causing the injectable to release less hormone longer

a&b) Yes it is 17aa but the only purpose for 17aa is to help the drug survive first-pass metabolism - when you inject the drug does not go through first-pass and there is more of it is absorbed by other tissue

Hepatoxicity

1. Oral - the drug in its full capacity must undergo first-pass metabolism and the portion that is left once it travels through the bloodstream will undergo second-pass metabolism.

2. Injectable - the drug goes directly into the blood stream and is more readily available for muscle absorption, the portion not absorbed goes through a much less rigid second-pass metabolism.

c) true, but the drug still needs to be removed by the liver, and it is still quite toxic on second pass

c) Yes but there is no comparison of which one puts the liver under the most stress. That isn’t even debatable. Both methods of administration will have to go through second-pass metabolism but your liver is only subjected to the far harsher first-pass when the drug is taken orally. Even if there is still half of the drug remaining after first pass the oral method would be at least three times as harsh.

This isn’t exactly what happens but I just wanted to give the gist of what happens rather than speaking about completely scientific. Nonetheless it provides a decent picture of the difference.

50mg orally – liver attempts to metabolize 50mg on the first pass and the remaining 25 on the second pass; 50mg injected – liver attempts to metabolize 25mg on the second pass; oral administration has subjected the liver to a total of 75mg while injecting only subjected the liver to 25mg

Obviously it is far less toxic to inject winstrol rather than ingest it. Also injecting allows more of the drug to be available for muscle absorption and in turn has the advantage assisting in building more new lean muscle mass than the oral version due to better nitrogen retention.

d.) most people say there is no difference, but either way running 75mg oral instead of 50mg would negate any differences

d.) This takes us back to the liver issues.


Like I said, I don’t think you will be able to tell a difference either way if you are taking it with other AAS in a cycle. I just think the method in which they provide their benefts are different.

 

[marvelous54]

i've always gotten great results from either drinking or taking tabs, so I never saw a need in poking myself any more then I have to. The one thing about winstrol that I do not like is that it litereally screws up my lipid profile something awful! At the end of a winstrol run I will have basically 0 good cholesterol.

not to mention it's lil painful