Why the need for clomid with forma-stanzol?

[MrMotivate]

Ok heres my 6 wk cycle breakdown I am about to begin
Wk 1-6
Helladrol l 50/75/75/100/100/125
Katana 2 maybe 3 caps daily as recommended on package (will take Helladrol solo for first 2 wks and then begin to add in Katana at beginning of wk 3)
HCGenerate 5 caps daily as recommended on package
N2guard 7 caps daily as recommended on package
Liv52

PCT wk 7-10
test Infusion 3 caps 2X per day
Forged methyl EAA
Forma-stanzol
......
Wk 11-14
Bridge
D spark

So so all this is posted in another thread but and I dont have any questions about the cycle (unless you would like to offer advice) but most threads and people I ask recommend Clomid and if I were to take it, it would be at this dosage for a PCT Clomid 50/25/12.5/12.5 x 4wks.
My question is in regards to clomid, looking at the description for forma-stanzol, it says it is the 'all in one' thats takes the place of nolva and clomid but without the bad side effects, and I know Montana doesnt like clomid but most other pros often recommend it as part of their PCT so I am asking, if I am going to take the posted PCT with forma/test infusion/ and methyll then is it necessary to still take clomid? ... and secondly if you say it is necessary then what would be the added benefit?
If you want to know, I am 31 yrs old, training 10 years, and at about 14% bf (probably less) and this would be my first real planned out cycle.
If at the same time you offer your opinion about clomid, you would also like to comment on my cycle or offer advice... it is appreciated, thanks a lot bros!

 

[wcjcMr.O]

personally I like clomid. Ran it at 50mg last time, (I think, would have to check my log) but balls plumped up nicely and didnt experience any sides that I wouldnt attribute to getting off the juice anyway. Didnt do blood work after cycle. But I "felt" ok and didnt experience the mood swings or depresseion thats usually associated with clomid. Granted it was but a single part of my pct.

 

[MrMotivate]

Ok thanks for the input... do you remember what the rest of your PCT was ?

 

[wcjcMr.O]

Think I ran Forma leading up to the end of my cycle than throughout PCT. Think I ran a fairly high dose of Fadogia Aggrestis. Spelling is probably wrong. Ran some D-aspartic acid. Somethin else too I cant remember off hand. My cycles have never been high dose or complex. Very simple. So I never felt the need to get too crazy with the pct. Would probably run HCG if I could get my hands on it. But thats kind of a whole nother ball game with the bacteriostatic water and shit. Probably no harder than running a clean vial of gear just havent looked into it too much and with the cycles I have run I havent felt the need.

Granted thats not always the best option. You can never really have too strong of a pct. Better an expensive pct than losing gains or feeling like absolute shit

 

[joeblow12345]

On a longer or harsher cycle I'd definitely recommend clomid but you should be fine without it here.

 

[saadhm]

I feel that its good to have it on hand just in case and if towards the last week of your cycle you feel really suppressed or shutdown then you should take the clomid, if not then you should be good with your current PCT.

That's just my opinion though.

 

[Jbranken]

I thinks it's better to be safe than sorry when it comes to pct. forma has many benefits so I run it along side a low dose of clomid. Clomid will stimulate FSH and LH levels when they are in a bad place. I'd say 25/25/25/25 or 25/25/12.5/12.5 are good low doses for a ph cycle. Anything that will help get hormones back quickly so you can maintain gains is a good idea

I remember your other thread about the cycle. Looks good! The methyl EAA and test infusion should be a great combo

 

[MrMotivate]

I thinks it's better to be safe than sorry when it comes to pct. forma has many benefits so I run it along side a low dose of clomid. Clomid will stimulate FSH and LH levels when they are in a bad place. I'd say 25/25/25/25 or 25/25/12.5/12.5 are good low doses for a ph cycle. Anything that will help get hormones back quickly so you can maintain gains is a good idea

I remember your other thread about the cycle. Looks good! The methyl EAA and test infusion should be a great combo

Ok sounds good so the consenus is that clomid still has its benefits when used with forma, particularly in stimulating FSH and LH levels. So if I just get some of this and keep it on standbye and use my normal PCT (since this is my first cycle I dont know how one usually feels after) but how will I know if I should be adding in some clomid? how would I be feeling? depressed, shitty, or what?

 

[Sherk]

Ok sounds good so the consenus is that clomid still has its benefits when used with forma, particularly in stimulating FSH and LH levels. So if I just get some of this and keep it on standbye and use my normal PCT (since this is my first cycle I dont know how one usually feels after) but how will I know if I should be adding in some clomid? how would I be feeling? depressed, shitty, or what?

Going by "feel" is a false sense of security. The ONLY way to truly know is blood work but unfortunately blood work shouldn't be done while the drugs are still in your system. You won't get an accurate reading. The best way is to run your pct then get bloods and run again if needed. But you have to have bloods done from before your cycle to know where you currently stand so then you know when you're recovered. Otherwise it's a guessing game of if you're really fully recovered or not.

 

[LOVEOZ]

Ok sounds good so the consenus is that clomid still has its benefits when used with forma, particularly in stimulating FSH and LH levels. So if I just get some of this and keep it on standbye and use my normal PCT (since this is my first cycle I dont know how one usually feels after) but how will I know if I should be adding in some clomid? how would I be feeling? depressed, shitty, or what?

I completed my first cycle towards the end of last year. I didn't use clomid. I used post/unleashed, forma and zma. I felt good.

Sent from my GT-I9210T using EliteFitness

 

[Jbranken]

I agree with sherk. Feeling good doesn't mean things are good. Always go the smart route and use some clomid

 

[Headholio]

Ok sounds good so the consenus is that clomid still has its benefits when used with forma, particularly in stimulating FSH and LH levels. So if I just get some of this and keep it on standbye and use my normal PCT (since this is my first cycle I dont know how one usually feels after) but how will I know if I should be adding in some clomid? how would I be feeling? depressed, shitty, or what?

So thats a good explanation of why to add Clomid to forma, but if you already have clomid, why would you add forma? And with the combination, how would you know what dose would keep your E not too low and not too high?

 

[Jbranken]

So thats a good explanation of why to add Clomid to forma, but if you already have clomid, why would you add forma? And with the combination, how would you know what dose would keep your E not too low and not too high?

The way I see it, the oldschool combo of clomid and nolva was popular because clomid was effective at stimulating LH and FSH but not as effective as nolva at binding to the ER so, nolva had its purpose. But now, we're replacing nolva with forma because it has many other benefits and has none of nolva's unwanted sides. Although clomid does block estro at ER, it may not do so effectively alone.

 

[Sherk]

Edit: didn't realize what I was writing has already been said right above me

 

[Nelson Montana]

The way I see it, the oldschool combo of clomid and nolva was popular because clomid was effective at stimulating LH and FSH but not as effective as nolva at binding to the ER so, nolva had its purpose. But now, we're replacing nolva with forma because it has many other benefits and has none of nolva's unwanted sides. Although clomid does block estro at ER, it may not do so effectively alone.

The way you see it is wrong. Nolva was used to prevent gyno and the old timers thought estrogen rose after a cycle so they used it. Dan Duchaine, the man who came up with the idea, admitted it was off base later on.

Clomid was used to stimulate LH, unfortunately after a cycle most of the LH stimulation leads to an increase in estrogen.

UNLEASHED and POST YCLE has been working great for most everyone who's used it for the last 10 years. And it's safe, natural and has no rebound effect. So why use anything else.

 

[MrMotivate]

Thanks for posting Montana! I appreciate the input, should I use unleashed/post cycle with any test boosters such as test infusion, forma, or hcgenerate?

 

[Sherk]

The way you see it is wrong. Nolva was used to prevent gyno and the old timers thought estrogen rose after a cycle so they used it. Dan Duchaine, the man who came up with the idea, admitted it was off base later on.

Clomid was used to stimulate LH, unfortunately after a cycle most of the LH stimulation leads to an increase in estrogen.

UNLEASHED and POST YCLE has been working great for most everyone who's used it for the last 10 years. And it's safe, natural and has no rebound effect. So why use anything else.

If I remember correctly he was referring to contest prep and trying to lower or even drop estrogen completely to help remove water retention as well as gyno. It's stated in his contest prep issue of the UG steroid handbook. Which he later back tracked the statement of it being able to remove estro. I know you don't agree with nolva or clomid but many many people have had great success with the pct. I use to get bloods before and after every cycle and recovered just fine. Here's a short excerpt talking how nolva does play a good roll with recovery.

"Nolvadex also has some important features for the steroid using athlete. In hypogonadic and infertile men given nolvadex, increases in the serum levels of LH, FSH, and most importantly, testosterone were all observed. The best (rough) estimate I can give you from my research is that 20mgs of Nolvadex will raise your testosterone levels about 150% and this would of course greatly aid post-cycle-recovery. What this means to us is that if you take Nolvadex after a cycle, when you are trying to raise your levels of testosterone, LH, and FSH back to normal, it will greatly aid recovery. In fact, if I were limited to just one compound to aid me in post-cycle-recovery, Nolvadex would be my choice. If you want a comparison, it would require 150mgs of Clomid to accomplish that type of elevation in testosterone, but nolvadex also significantly increased the LH (Leutenizing Hormone) response to LHRL after 6 weeks."

The reason for me posting this and somewhat defending the compounds is not everyone has success with your natural herbal products. Not bashing them, just not everything is going to work for everyone. I was one that it didn't and I decided to go on trt after that pct. This was almost 2 years ago before people got back on the clomid band wagon with pct here at EF. Before everyone would flame if you mentioned adding clomid or nolva to a pct, so I figured I'd see what the hype was about with your products. Now I see adding clomid to a pct is common practice on this board all of a sudden. Don't really understand that but that's besides the point.

 

[MrMotivate]

Thanks a lot for all the info... will continue looking into it and doing more research

 

[Jbranken]

The way you see it is wrong. Nolva was used to prevent gyno and the old timers thought estrogen rose after a cycle so they used it. Dan Duchaine, the man who came up with the idea, admitted it was off base later on.

Clomid was used to stimulate LH, unfortunately after a cycle most of the LH stimulation leads to an increase in estrogen.

UNLEASHED and POST YCLE has been working great for most everyone who's used it for the last 10 years. And it's safe, natural and has no rebound effect. So why use anything else.

What I said wasn't wrong.

Nolva is a weak estrogen that binds to the ER, preventing stronger estro produced by the body from binding. (which is why people use to to prevent gyno.) Clomid is also a weak estrogen that binds to the ER but also stimulates LH and FSH. How is this wrong

 

[2tickets]

Is the big issue with just following a nova and clomid PCT that while nolva prevents estrogen binding it doesnt prevent it accumulating as your body still produces it via aromatase. So the clomid.boosts LH which boosts test which is then.converted in part to estrogen which then floats around doing....well....nothing. Then when u come off nova and.clomid you have still got all that estrogen in the system which is what causes the estrogen rebound affect.

The natty supps like ps erase, forma, post cycle etc seem to address this by adding not only additional LH boosting ingredients like DAA, tribulus etc but also an AI into PCT which prevents formulation of estrogen in the first place meaning the use of nolva is almost redundant because what little estrogen remains in the body is prevented from doing anything by the clomid which is also a very mild serm. Also means when you come off at the end any rebound affect is minimal.

Is that about right?

Seems to make sense anyway but never too proud to admit when wrong lol

Sent from my GT-I9100 using EliteFitness

 

[NoFatChicks91]

All I'm going to say about clomid....

Some people don't experience emotional sides...

However... I felt great before and on cycle. Was a mild epi cycle
Started clomid and like day 2 or 3 man, depression, anxiety and paranoia hit me like a brick...
The mental state it put me in caused issues with my girlfriend and I, and we ended up breaking up.

I got off the clomid week 2 because I couldn't handle life lol... dosing was at 25.
Instead, I switched to torem and was already on forma.

My 2 cents... I'm going to use forma, unleashed/post cycle, test infusion and methyl for my Hella cycle. If needed I may use torem. Nolva and I don't get along but torem hasn't treated me too badly.

Fuck clomid. If you don't get sides on it you're lucky.

 

[MrMotivate]

All I'm going to say about clomid....

Some people don't experience emotional sides...

However... I felt great before and on cycle. Was a mild epi cycle
Started clomid and like day 2 or 3 man, depression, anxiety and paranoia hit me like a brick...
The mental state it put me in caused issues with my girlfriend and I, and we ended up breaking up.

I got off the clomid week 2 because I couldn't handle life lol... dosing was at 25.
Instead, I switched to torem and was already on forma.

My 2 cents... I'm going to use forma, unleashed/post cycle, test infusion and methyl for my Hella cycle. If needed I may use torem. Nolva and I don't get along but torem hasn't treated me too badly.

Fuck clomid. If you don't get sides on it you're lucky.

Hey great post man! Im about to take Hella and my PCT right now planned is Methyll EAA, test infusion, and forma.... you have these plus unleashed/post cycle? dont they do the same thing? or do you get extra benefit from adding those two?

 

[stevesmi]

well i will agree with the guys who said how you feel after cycle means nothing. keep in mind it takes long esters weeks to clear. even in low amounts, even though they aren't considered 'active' in studies (blah) it doesn't mean its still not working in your body and suppressing you. so you feeling good is extremely mis-leading.

the ONLY way to know anything is to not only run bloods, but also understanding your bloods. I have a handy link below where you can get bloodwork done and you are welcome to have me interpret your results

 

[NoFatChicks91]

My understanding is that unleashed is needed to restore free test. Test infusion, IMO could take the role of post cycle possibly. And I believe methyll EAA would be a nice addition.

The reason I threw all those in there together is that I have unleashed and post cycle on hand. I want to try methyll EAA so I want to implement that, as well.

Last PCT, I ran unleashed/post cycle, test infusion, phytoserms, and bridge... sounds like overkill and probably was, but I made sick gains in PCT...

Unfortunately I haven't don't my research on the EAA enough to give you a solid answer so hopefully these guys can help. I just wanted to warn you about the clomid. Made me suicidal bro... Everyone should know what to expect before they take that shit, even if they end up not experiencing those side effects...

 

[JoeBlob]

Everyone reacts different to all drugs, especially Clomid. You can experience anything from feeling like hell to feeling great.. but you won't know until you try it. My suggestion would be to add Clomid at 12.5 - 25mg/day when you start PCT, and adjust dosages or drop it all together by how you react. It won't take long for you to know if you should continue or not. Luckily your cycle isn't too harsh so you could probably get away with natty supps, but Clomid is a must IMO!

 

[NoFatChicks91]

Everyone reacts different to all drugs, especially Clomid. You can experience anything from feeling like hell to feeling great.. but you won't know until you try it. My suggestion would be to add Clomid at 12.5 - 25mg/day when you start PCT, and adjust dosages or drop it all together by how you react. It won't take long for you to know if you should continue or not. Luckily your cycle isn't too harsh so you could probably get away with natty supps, but Clomid is a must IMO!

Agreed, you will know if clomid is making you an emotional roller coaster after 2 or 3 days.

If it fucks you up too bad, like I said, I had success with torem and forma

 

[Nelson Montana]

What I said wasn't wrong.

Nolva is a weak estrogen that binds to the ER, preventing stronger estro produced by the body from binding. (which is why people use to to prevent gyno.) Clomid is also a weak estrogen that binds to the ER but also stimulates LH and FSH. How is this wrong

Because it doesn't necessarily bind to the estro that causes problems. Then you just wind up with more estrogen, which why people feel like whinny bitches on it more often than not..

 

[Nelson Montana]

If I remember correctly he was referring to contest prep and trying to lower or even drop estrogen completely to help remove water retention as well as gyno. It's stated in his contest prep issue of the UG steroid handbook. Which he later back tracked the statement of it being able to remove estro. I know you don't agree with nolva or clomid but many many people have had great success with the pct. I use to get bloods before and after every cycle and recovered just fine. Here's a short excerpt talking how nolva does play a good roll with recovery.



"Nolvadex also has some important features for the steroid using athlete. In hypogonadic and infertile men given nolvadex, increases in the serum levels of LH, FSH, and most importantly, testosterone were all observed. The best (rough) estimate I can give you from my research is that 20mgs of Nolvadex will raise your testosterone levels about 150% and this would of course greatly aid post-cycle-recovery. What this means to us is that if you take Nolvadex after a cycle, when you are trying to raise your levels of testosterone, LH, and FSH back to normal, it will greatly aid recovery. In fact, if I were limited to just one compound to aid me in post-cycle-recovery, Nolvadex would be my choice. If you want a comparison, it would require 150mgs of Clomid to accomplish that type of elevation in testosterone, but nolvadex also significantly increased the LH (Leutenizing Hormone) response to LHRL after 6 weeks."

The reason for me posting this and somewhat defending the compounds is not everyone has success with your natural herbal products. Not bashing them, just not everything is going to work for everyone. I was one that it didn't and I decided to go on trt after that pct. This was almost 2 years ago before people got back on the clomid band wagon with pct here at EF. Before everyone would flame if you mentioned adding clomid or nolva to a pct, so I figured I'd see what the hype was about with your products. Now I see adding clomid to a pct is common practice on this board all of a sudden. Don't really understand that but that's besides the point.

First off, that book is 30 years old and as I said, Dan, who was a friend of mine, himself admitted it sounded good in theory but didn't pan out well. And using an anti e to dry out is for contest preperation which has nothing to do with what anyone here is doing.

I'm not sure abou the Clomid bandwagon. Some peoeple have success with it but it comes with risks. Since UNLEASHED and POST CYCLE (and using HCGen on cycle) works every bit as well without the side effects, I don't see why anyone would use it.

 

[stevesmi]

well hcg smashes LH and FSH and causes T to jump. but what happens after you are done with it? LH and FSH bounce back up and T drops back down. a good way to kickstart a pct but its only a first step.

clomid/nolva will boost LH and T but when you come off then what? unfortunately you lose that effect and you are back down right? so then what after that... yup jump back on cycle without your body recovering on its own. I'm not advocating anything I'm just stating the timeline of things in pct. eventually your body must take over on its own without being manipulated by drugs.

 

[Jbranken]

Good discussion. I agree clomid is risky because of mood swings and depression. But I also feel pct is risky without it. That being said, unleashed is an awesome product. But can it and post cycle really mimic what clomid does? Don't mind running OTC along with a serm but dropping the serm altogether? I'm skeptical and worried it would turn out badly the one time I try it

 

[Nelson Montana]

Good discussion. I agree clomid is risky because of mood swings and depression. But I also feel pct is risky without it. That being said, unleashed is an awesome product. But can it and post cycle really mimic what clomid does? Don't mind running OTC along with a serm but dropping the serm altogether? I'm skeptical and worried it would turn out badly the one time I try it

No, it doesn't work at all like Clomid. It increases FreeT so you have more of your own T while your body starts to recover. Even if clomid worked for you, it'll stop working ponce you stop and then you have to start recovering all over again.

 

[MrMotivate]

Everyone has had some really good input and a big thanks to MONTANA for dropping by after my PM! I ask all this because I know my body and I would probably be prone to the side effects of clomid and after researching it ... I really dont want to use it unless it is absolutely necessary but it doesnt sound like it is in my case.. So right now my PCT plan is Methyll EAA, Forma-stanzol, and test infusion... I can run it like this but now I am considering adding in some Unleashed and maybe Unleashed and Post Cycle. Actually I will definitely add in Unleashed to make it Unleashed/Methyll Eaa/Test Infusion and Forma as my PCT ............... so would adding Post Cycle be overkill?

 

[NegroPops]

my bro uses clomid, and he is fuckin huge. therefore he is right