Why Esters Take So Long To Kick In?

[no1_brawler]

The enanthate ester has a half-life of 4.5 days. So 500mg given every 4.5 days and your body uses up 250mg every 4.5 days. If thats the case then why does it take 3-4 weeks for it to actually kick in and start gaining muscle?
Lots of people say that it takes long for the blood levels to peak and get stable, but why does that matter?
I know its a long ester but whats the actual reason why it takes that long to kick in, surely after the first injection your body should be using half of wat you injected in the next 4.5 days.

 

[Jon79]

its just simply the way the test is carried

say taking tren ace and you get alot of sides so you stop and it clears you system very quickly

say you are using tren e then you get bad sides its going to take at least 2 weeks for it to clear

thats all it is bro just different ways to carry the drug(test)

 

[Jon79]

longer it takes to clear the longer it takes to take effect

 

[no1_brawler]

ye i get all of that, im just wondering why the drug doesnt take effect as soon as its in your body seeing that all their half lives are relatively short.
Example:
Prop has a half-life of 2.5 days yet it kicks in, in around 10 days. Enanthate has half-life of 4.5 days, kicks in after around 20 days. Both seem to kick in after 4 half-lifes

 

[nydj66]

ye i get all of that, im just wondering why the drug doesnt take effect as soon as its in your body seeing that all their half lives are relatively short.
Example:
Prop has a half-life of 2.5 days yet it kicks in, in around 10 days. Enanthate has half-life of 4.5 days, kicks in after around 20 days. Both seem to kick in after 4 half-lifes

That's pretty much it. Somewhere around 5-6 half-lives is where you reach equilibrium.

For instance, if you inject 500mg every 5 days that's 100mg/day. But early in the cycle you're getting less than 100mg/day into your bloodstream (the rest is building up in your body fat). Once enough is built up in your body, you'll average 100mg/day going in and 100mg/day being absorbed.

Then at the end of your cycle you stop injecting and the excess in your body works it's way out over a few weeks.

 

[no1_brawler]

That's pretty much it. Somewhere around 5-6 half-lives is where you reach equilibrium.

For instance, if you inject 500mg every 5 days that's 100mg/day. But early in the cycle you're getting less than 100mg/day into your bloodstream (the rest is building up in your body fat). Once enough is built up in your body, you'll average 100mg/day going in and 100mg/day being absorbed.

Then at the end of your cycle you stop injecting and the excess in your body works it's way out over a few weeks.

thats the answer i was looking for. So your not actually geting the whole 500mg in your bloodstream when you just start, its building up in your fat. Never knew that, thanks

 

[st8grad]

thats the answer i was looking for. So your not actually geting the whole 500mg in your bloodstream when you just start, its building up in your fat. Never knew that, thanks

Guys are you kidding with those answers? It takes three weeks to kick in becuase it is building up in your fat? Without getting anywhere near scientific on esters, or half-lives, or enteric coatings on pills I think I can add a comment that should be somewhat credible on why it takes 3 weeks to "kick in."

It doesn't take 3 weeks to begin working in your body. However, as a lifter or athlete or whatever, you aren't going to feel any significant gains in strength or endurance in a day - or even a week. The test begins to enter your bloodstream the day you inject it. But that doesn't mean that your muscles and tendons and CNS are to the point where you can bench 20 pounds more overnight. You provide the training stimulus and your body responds by adapting, growing, and super compensating. But for it to be measureable, especially by any of our standards, it takes time. It is simply that your body cannot grow or become instantly strong for you to notice overnight.

Guys will swear that test prop is better than test e becuase it works "faster." The truth is no, not really. It all should be compensated for in the dosage. If you take test prop and test e, calculate the half-lives and adjust dosage accordingly, they will work exactly the same.

Please just don't say that the drug builds up into your fat and then your body uses it. It will get absorbed into fat, but that is completely beside the point.

 

[silver_shadow]

Guys are you kidding with those answers? It takes three weeks to kick in becuase it is building up in your fat? Without getting anywhere near scientific on esters, or half-lives, or enteric coatings on pills I think I can add a comment that should be somewhat credible on why it takes 3 weeks to "kick in."

It doesn't take 3 weeks to begin working in your body. However, as a lifter or athlete or whatever, you aren't going to feel any significant gains in strength or endurance in a day - or even a week. The test begins to enter your bloodstream the day you inject it. But that doesn't mean that your muscles and tendons and CNS are to the point where you can bench 20 pounds more overnight. You provide the training stimulus and your body responds by adapting, growing, and super compensating. But for it to be measureable, especially by any of our standards, it takes time. It is simply that your body cannot grow or become instantly strong for you to notice overnight.

Guys will swear that test prop is better than test e becuase it works "faster." The truth is no, not really. It all should be compensated for in the dosage. If you take test prop and test e, calculate the half-lives and adjust dosage accordingly, they will work exactly the same.

Please just don't say that the drug builds up into your fat and then your body uses it. It will get absorbed into fat, but that is completely beside the point.

hmmm.... someone should make a sticky with this post. good stuff bro.

 

[todoveritas]

Didn't we just do this one? A steroid has to enter into the ribosome on a molecular level to produce the amino-acid protein code via RNA synthesis. Transcription...translation...etc. This takes 7-10 days. The primary effects on muscles seen prior to that are almost always due to water weight.

 

[nydj66]

Guys are you kidding with those answers? It takes three weeks to kick in becuase it is building up in your fat? Without getting anywhere near scientific on esters, or half-lives, or enteric coatings on pills I think I can add a comment that should be somewhat credible on why it takes 3 weeks to "kick in."

It doesn't take 3 weeks to begin working in your body. However, as a lifter or athlete or whatever, you aren't going to feel any significant gains in strength or endurance in a day - or even a week. The test begins to enter your bloodstream the day you inject it. But that doesn't mean that your muscles and tendons and CNS are to the point where you can bench 20 pounds more overnight. You provide the training stimulus and your body responds by adapting, growing, and super compensating. But for it to be measureable, especially by any of our standards, it takes time. It is simply that your body cannot grow or become instantly strong for you to notice overnight.

Guys will swear that test prop is better than test e becuase it works "faster." The truth is no, not really. It all should be compensated for in the dosage. If you take test prop and test e, calculate the half-lives and adjust dosage accordingly, they will work exactly the same.

Please just don't say that the drug builds up into your fat and then your body uses it. It will get absorbed into fat, but that is completely beside the point.

Not sure where you're coming from on this one but my post was accurate and I stand by it.

If you inject testosterone suspension then it quickly enters your bloodstream, activates an adrogen receptor here and there, then hits your liver and is deactivated.

Esterification is a time-release mechanism for steroids. The ester increases the ratio of oil soulbility to water solubility so that the gear builds up in your body fat (oil) and slowly releases into your bloodstream (water).

That's the way it is; that's why longer esters have longer half-lives than shorter esters. That's why enanthate takes longer to reach full effect than prop does.

It's not that what you're saying is incorrect about it taking time for the compounds to take effect in your body, but early in a cycle with a long ester steroid, your bloodstream is not seeing the full dosage that you're injecting. So it takes that much longer for the effect you're referencing to occur.

 

[st8grad]

Not sure where you're coming from on this one but my post was accurate and I stand by it.

If you inject testosterone suspension then it quickly enters your bloodstream, activates an adrogen receptor here and there, then hits your liver and is deactivated.

Esterification is a time-release mechanism for steroids. The ester increases the ratio of oil soulbility to water solubility so that the gear builds up in your body fat (oil) and slowly releases into your bloodstream (water).

That's the way it is; that's why longer esters have longer half-lives than shorter esters. That's why enanthate takes longer to reach full effect than prop does.

It's not that what you're saying is incorrect about it taking time for the compounds to take effect in your body, but early in a cycle with a long ester steroid, your bloodstream is not seeing the full dosage that you're injecting. So it takes that much longer for the effect you're referencing to occur.

Esterification is a time release for the steroids. They are fat soluble which is what allows them to difuse into the cell membrane. But that doesn't mean it builds up in your fat and then is distributed to your bloodstream. It does slow absorption from the injection site. If an equal dose of prop or enan are used for a week straight, it will take longer for the enan to reach peak plasma serum levels than the prop. But it doesn't take three weeks for that to happen or kick in. The results from prop and enan will be the same taken over the same amount of time adjusting for the time release. If I took 200mg of Advil with a half life of 4 hours twice per day or 1 tablet of 400mg Advil XR (which doesn't exist) once per day with a half life of 8 hours, I am taking the same thing. For argument sake, the advil 200mg will hit peak plasma concentration at 2 hours and the advil xr 400mg will hit peak at 4 hours. So yes, I am getting quicker plasma concentrations with the immediate release but probably not clinically significant advantages in pain relief. So the ester slows absorption which slows metabolization of the drug. And it will take longer to reach peak levels, maybe like a day longer, but you are also shooting a higher dosage at once to compensate for the slower absorption. So if you can take test prop and tell me that you are benching as much in one week as you can with test e that takes three weeks, let me know your supplier, because he is selling you the same shit that superman takes and I want some of that. If I am wrong on this, then my sincerest apologies.

 

[nydj66]

Lets do it by the math. Let's say for the sake of argument that test enanthate has a half-life of 5 days.

You start with an injection of 500mg of test-e. 5 days later you have 250mg still in your body (esterified and inert) and the other 250mg was released into your bloodstream over the 5 days. The testosterone enanthate that was released into your blood met up with the esterase enzyme shortly after it entered your bloodstream. The esterase cleaved the ester and left the base steroid active and free to work it's magic. At that point it has mabye 30 minutes before it will hit your liver and be deactivated.

Anyway, for those 5 days you averaged 50mg/day (34.5 if you take into account the weight of the ester) of testosterone absorbed. So you injected what should be 100mg/day but your body absorbed only half that in the first half-life period.

So on that 6th day you inject another 500mg of test-e. Now you have 750mg in your body and 5 days later you have 375mg left esterified in your body. Over this 2nd half-life period you averaged 75mg/day of test-e absorbed into your body. Realize of course that on day 7 you absorbed more than 75mg and on day 10 you absorbed less than 75mg but the average over this period was still 75mg/day.

So over time your daily abosorption approaches the 100mg/day you are injecting. But a steroid with a longer half-life ester will take longer to reach equilibrium in this way than a shorter half-life ester. That's all I'm saying.

 

[yahya1966]

Lets do it by the math. Let's say for the sake of argument that test enanthate has a half-life of 5 days.

You start with an injection of 500mg of test-e. 5 days later you have 250mg still in your body (esterified and inert) and the other 250mg was released into your bloodstream over the 5 days. The testosterone enanthate that was released into your blood met up with the esterase enzyme shortly after it entered your bloodstream. The esterase cleaved the ester and left the base steroid active and free to work it's magic. At that point it has mabye 30 minutes before it will hit your liver and be deactivated.

Anyway, for those 5 days you averaged 50mg/day (34.5 if you take into account the weight of the ester) of testosterone absorbed. So you injected what should be 100mg/day but your body absorbed only half that in the first half-life period.

So on that 6th day you inject another 500mg of test-e. Now you have 750mg in your body and 5 days later you have 375mg left esterified in your body. Over this 2nd half-life period you averaged 75mg/day of test-e absorbed into your body. Realize of course that on day 7 you absorbed more than 75mg and on day 10 you absorbed less than 75mg but the average over this period was still 75mg/day.

So over time your daily abosorption approaches the 100mg/day you are injecting. But a steroid with a longer half-life ester will take longer to reach equilibrium in this way than a shorter half-life ester. That's all I'm saying.

tis why i inject long esters every 3 days instead of every 3.5.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Guys are you kidding with those answers? It takes three weeks to kick in becuase it is building up in your fat? Without getting anywhere near scientific on esters, or half-lives, or enteric coatings on pills I think I can add a comment that should be somewhat credible on why it takes 3 weeks to "kick in."

It doesn't take 3 weeks to begin working in your body. However, as a lifter or athlete or whatever, you aren't going to feel any significant gains in strength or endurance in a day - or even a week. The test begins to enter your bloodstream the day you inject it. But that doesn't mean that your muscles and tendons and CNS are to the point where you can bench 20 pounds more overnight. You provide the training stimulus and your body responds by adapting, growing, and super compensating. But for it to be measureable, especially by any of our standards, it takes time. It is simply that your body cannot grow or become instantly strong for you to notice overnight.

Guys will swear that test prop is better than test e becuase it works "faster." The truth is no, not really. It all should be compensated for in the dosage. If you take test prop and test e, calculate the half-lives and adjust dosage accordingly, they will work exactly the same.

Please just don't say that the drug builds up into your fat and then your body uses it. It will get absorbed into fat, but that is completely beside the point.

Thanks you. You just saved me the time to say the same thing I've said here over a dozen times. It doesn't seem to get through to some people though.

 

[solidspine]

Another reason, is it works and does not hurt as much to inject,

 

[basskiller]

Guys will swear that test prop is better than test e becuase it works "faster." The truth is no, not really. It all should be compensated for in the dosage. If you take test prop and test e, calculate the half-lives and adjust dosage accordingly, they will work exactly the same.

.

then why the difference in esters You are not trying to tell me that you can't get to maximum blood level concentration with prop faster than with enanthate?

The way I look at easters and this is toatly from an extreme laymans point of view is.. Esters are like time release. the longer the ester, the longer it takes the blood to cleave the ester making the parent steroid viably active.







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[CHICAGOSTACKS]

Man I Fell Like Im In Science Holy Shit You Guys Are Good But Im Still Confused.to Many People With Different Answers.
So Im Taking Sus.250 Whats My Weekly Mg Then Lol

 

[NFG123reborn]

The enanthate ester has a half-life of 4.5 days. So 500mg given every 4.5 days and your body uses up 250mg every 4.5 days. If thats the case then why does it take 3-4 weeks for it to actually kick in and start gaining muscle?
Lots of people say that it takes long for the blood levels to peak and get stable, but why does that matter?
I know its a long ester but whats the actual reason why it takes that long to kick in, surely after the first injection your body should be using half of wat you injected in the next 4.5 days.

The process doesn't have anything to do with serum concentrations of T, and this is also many bodybuilders don't frontload. If it were true that the serum (blood) concentration of T was responsible for gains, then fronloading 3 g on day one would lead to instant gains. But that clearly isn't the case.

The effect can take a while to be "felt" and for strength to increase, but the adpative responses happen within the first few days. T is cholesterol derivced hormone ligand. When it binds to the AR, leads to transcriptional activation, and the production of other gene products involved in virilization and muscle growth among many others. Some of these gene products are transcription factors themselves, and they THEN go back and turn on other sets of genes. Unlike signfalling that occurs from nerves (rapid saltatory signal transduction), endocrine signalling can take a long time for a process to be "optimized". The activation of gene products, and subsequent activation of further genes, formation of protein complexes needed for muscle growth, etc can take a while to change from your usual steady state into one created by supraphysiologic levels of androgens.

Not all Androgens work the same way, there is more evidence that Methandrostenolone works by anatagonizing glucocorticoid mediated pathways in some types of cells, since it has a lower naturala ffinity for the Androgen receptor. There is now growing evidence that the AR and other nuclear receptors work at non-classical elements, and perhaps even work on signal transduction cascades outside of the cell's nucleus.

This is a very complex process.

In medicine, its common practice to say that if you dose a medication or drug at a new level (such as coumadin), it takes a time equivalent of 5 half lives of the drug to reach a new steady-state level of the drug. While this may have important effects for anti-thrombotics and anti-hypertensives, it is not the major confounder in the two week delay seen with many synthetic androgens that are used. Once again, if this were simply the answer, and not the body's physiologic adaptation to the drug, then logically front loading would be able to completely eliminate delays in strength/mass. It doesn't completely eliminate them, and serum concentrations are not the cause as many believe.

NFG

 

[no1_brawler]

The process doesn't have anything to do with serum concentrations of T, and this is also many bodybuilders don't frontload. If it were true that the serum (blood) concentration of T was responsible for gains, then fronloading 3 g on day one would lead to instant gains. But that clearly isn't the case.

The effect can take a while to be "felt" and for strength to increase, but the adpative responses happen within the first few days. T is cholesterol derivced hormone ligand. When it binds to the AR, leads to transcriptional activation, and the production of other gene products involved in virilization and muscle growth among many others. Some of these gene products are transcription factors themselves, and they THEN go back and turn on other sets of genes. Unlike signfalling that occurs from nerves (rapid saltatory signal transduction), endocrine signalling can take a long time for a process to be "optimized". The activation of gene products, and subsequent activation of further genes, formation of protein complexes needed for muscle growth, etc can take a while to change from your usual steady state into one created by supraphysiologic levels of androgens.

Not all Androgens work the same way, there is more evidence that Methandrostenolone works by anatagonizing glucocorticoid mediated pathways in some types of cells, since it has a lower naturala ffinity for the Androgen receptor. There is now growing evidence that the AR and other nuclear receptors work at non-classical elements, and perhaps even work on signal transduction cascades outside of the cell's nucleus.

This is a very complex process.

In medicine, its common practice to say that if you dose a medication or drug at a new level (such as coumadin), it takes a time equivalent of 5 half lives of the drug to reach a new steady-state level of the drug. While this may have important effects for anti-thrombotics and anti-hypertensives, it is not the major confounder in the two week delay seen with many synthetic androgens that are used. Once again, if this were simply the answer, and not the body's physiologic adaptation to the drug, then logically front loading would be able to completely eliminate delays in strength/mass. It doesn't completely eliminate them, and serum concentrations are not the cause as many believe.

NFG

Very informative response. Only if i knew what any of that means, LOL. So can we say it takes around 5 half-lifes for a drug to kick in?

 

[nydj66]

The process doesn't have anything to do with serum concentrations of T, and this is also many bodybuilders don't frontload. If it were true that the serum (blood) concentration of T was responsible for gains, then fronloading 3 g on day one would lead to instant gains. But that clearly isn't the case.

NFG

By that statement you're implying that the effects of testosterone are independent of dosage? I'm sure that's not what you meant to say.

No one is saying that testosterone (or any other anabolic steroid) don't take time to affect their changes once they have been introduced into the body. But clearly the magnitude of those changes is dosage dependent. Longer esters start out with lower serum blood levels.; obviously.

So answer me this; I have 2 cycle options:

1.) Inject 100mg testosterone enanthate daily

2.) Inject 69mg testosterone suspension daily (the equivalent dosage of test).

Which cycle will make me stronger faster?

If your answer is truly going to be "it makes no difference" then try it and report back to us.

 

[mr.nitro]

ts because of overlapping doses.
say if you took 500mg of test e. every 3 days, it would take up to day 20 to reach an adverage of 1500mg

 

[st8grad]

By that statement you're implying that the effects of testosterone are independent of dosage? I'm sure that's not what you meant to say.

No one is saying that testosterone (or any other anabolic steroid) take time to affect their changes once they have been introduced into the body. But clearly the magnitude of those changes is dosage dependent. Longer esters start out with lower serum blood levels.; obviously.

So answer me this; I have 2 cycle options:

1.) Inject 100mg testosterone enanthate daily

2.) Inject 69mg testosterone suspension daily (the equivalent dosage of test).

Which cycle will make me stronger faster?

If your answer is truly going to be "it makes no difference" then try it and report back to us.

It won't make a difference as long as I inject the test e equivalent in one dose. I can't multiple dose a long acting ester and have it be the same as multiple dosing the short ester. For the length of the cycle I am trying to come up with the number that is exactly equal to the suspension given the half lives and length of cycle. The point is that if I find that matching number....whatever is truly equal.....then it won't matter what the ester is. If you are taking test prop or test suspension or test e, by itself, and you are at the mathematically adjusted equivalent dose, I would say that you see your strength gains on each one at roughly the same point in time. And for the record test prop hurts like crazy for me too.

 

[nydj66]

It won't make a difference as long as I inject the test e equivalent in one dose. I can't multiple dose a long acting ester and have it be the same as multiple dosing the short ester. For the length of the cycle I am trying to come up with the number that is exactly equal to the suspension given the half lives and length of cycle. The point is that if I find that matching number....whatever is truly equal.....then it won't matter what the ester is. If you are taking test prop or test suspension or test e, by itself, and you are at the mathematically adjusted equivalent dose, I would say that you see your strength gains on each one at roughly the same point in time. And for the record test prop hurts like crazy for me too.

100mg/day of test-e is 69mg/day of testosterone. They are equivalent.

If you're saying that you need to inject the test-e less often in higher doses I'm not buying that either. If you take 100mg/day or 500mg every 5 days the mean rise in serum testosterone level over time is the same. It's just a nice smooth curve if you inject daily and a saw-tooth jagged path if you inject higher doses less often. But the mean daily rise in serum levels is the same.

Do it in roid calulator and see for yourself.

 

[stbizzle]

Heres some information I got from another board.
This first one was posted by Whitey:

I've had a couple guys ask recently about frontloading. I've heard anecdotally from a lot of guys that they've tried both ways, and didn't notice any difference, so it can't be that good. I've been thinking about the whole concept, and think frontloading has merit, in theory.

And the lack of anecdotal support may just be a result of the fact that no one tests it in isolation. I haven't heard of anyone frontloading a long ester, with no oral compounds or short esters added (no kickstart), in order to compare the results against regular dosing of a long ester with no kickstart.

On paper, it actually looks pretty solid:

Take an injection of 500mg Test E. Assume the active life is about 10 days, so the half life is 5 days. In the first 5 days, one half of the compound is cleaved from the ester and released as active hormone. (Forget for now any controversy over linear release, and just think cumulative numbers over the half-life period.)

That means you get 250mg over 5 days (50mg ED, average), but then only half the compound is left, so over the next 5 days, you get only 125mg on average (not factoring in ester wt.) This is why, at a minimum, esters need to be injected by their half lives.

But with frontloading, we're just talking about getting the serum levels up quickly. Frontloading, can address this lag time. Let's say one doubles the dose, and on day 1 injects 1000mg Test E.

Day 1: 0mg active / 1,000mg Injection
Day 6: 500mg active (cumulative over past 5 days) / 500mg reserve + another 500mg Injection
Day 11: 500mg active / 500mg reserve + 500mg Injection
Day 16: 500mg active / 500mg reserve + 500mg Injection
...and so on - It stabilizes immediately.

Now, assuming a linear release (which is an oversimplification of reality, of course), you'd get 100mg of Test ED on this protocol (minus ester wt. of course). This would be from Day 1. Now if you want to shoot more frequently, the math gets more complex, and you'll probably need a spreadsheet, and have to make assumptions about linear release, which will make your calculations inevitably flawed.

But this should illustrate that if we look at distinct half-life periods, one double front-loading injection gets us right in the game. There is no "kick-in" period, or if so, it's not more than a day or two.

Now if you take an oral kickstart, your initial gains are coming mainly from that, and what you're running underneath really won't be very noticeable, IMO.

Thoughts? Keep in mind that this does not take into account optimal stability of serum levels, which might require more frequent injections. That's not really what I'm trying to discuss here.

 

[stbizzle]

Here it is, posted by Illusion on another board (Not named, because it's an open board).......


I am writing this but cannot take credit for it. This line of reasoning was pointed out to me by a bro who wishes to now remain anonymous.

GG and Superduty got me thinking tho so I'd thought I'd try to explain it.

The goal of injecting steriods is to increase blood levels of testosterone much higher than can be achieved normally. One of our criteria in doing this is to keep blood levels as stable as possible throughout cycle to provide the best environment for growth and to avoid as many sides as possible. I believe many side effects are caused by the spikes and dips created by once or twice a week injections, even using long esters. A way to reduce these sides would be to use a proper half life to determine when to inject or more importantly how much to frontload with.

Now most half lives are calculated on 1.5 x the number of carbon atoms to determine 1/2 life in days. Thats wrong! If you go to PubMed or AMJ you can look up numerous studies showing a much shorter half life(@ .7 per carbon atom)

That difference is because esters decay at a logarithmic rate, meaning the more esterified hormone in the injection depot, the more is released. This release rate slows as the amount of esterified hormone in the depot is reduced over time.
The general rule is about 0.7 X the number of carbons atoms in a linear ester . However when the body builder needs to keep in mind is that the majority of the esterified hormone is released, regardless of the ester, with the first 24hrs of injection because of the logarithmic rate of decay.
(THANKS TO BODY BY BALCO FOR HIS INFO)
What does this mean in simple terms?
I'll useTestosterone Enthante in an 8 week cycle as an example:

Assume a 5 day half life for enthanate based on .7 x it's carbons.
Injecting 579mg on day one of your cycle will provide stable levels of 550 mg per week for the duration of your cycle provided you replentish 75 mg EVERY DAY.
INJECT
Day 1- 579- giving you 550 mg in 24 hours
Day 2 75 giving you 550 mg
Day 3 75 550
Day 4 75 550
Day 5 75 550
Day 6 75 550
Day 7 75 550
Day 8 75 550
Day 9 75 550
Day10 75 550
Day11 75 550
Day12 75 550

and so on until day 57 when you stop injections
decay clearance is as follows
DAY Total MG
58 479
59 417
60 363
61 316
62 275
63 240
64 209
65 182
66 158
67 138
68 120
69 104
70 91
71 79
72 69
73 60
74 52
75 45
76 40
77 34
78 30
79 26
80 23
81 20
82 17
83 15
84 13
85 11
all the way down to day 98 (end of week 14) before the enth is totally cleared.
__________________


Enthanate Clearance 500 mg

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now let's look at 1 shot of test enthanate of 500mg taken on day one.

It will take 8 weeks to clear(assuming a 5 day 1/2 life)

DAY Injected 500 mg(level)

1 500
2 475
3 414
4 360
5 313
6 273
7 238
8 207
9 180
10 157
11 136
12 119
13 103
14 90

and so- on until week 9 when it reaches 0.

Enthanate injected E3D at 250 mg-levels

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOw lets look at Injections of Test Enthanate every 3 days with 250 mg.
Blood levels are all over the place and create many dips and spikes.
Not a prime anabolic environment. It takes 7 days and 3 injections to even get to 500 mg(498) adn then continues to dip and spike the 500 mark until week 4 but then the spikes are over 600 mg. This daily flucuation cannot be good for combating sides or keeping steady growth rate.
The other way to look at it is $$$$. 500 ed levels would be more economical. You'd gain more.
I wonder if the 2 grams a week guys would do better on 1 gram injected every day vs 3x a week.


DAY INJECT TOTAL

1.... .250.... 238
2 .......0..... 207..
3 ......0 .....180
4.... 250 ....394
5 ......0 .....343
6 ......0..... 299
7 .....250... 498
8 .....0...... 433
9..... 0 ......377
10 ..250 ....566
11... 0 ......493
12... 0..... 429
13 ..250..... 611
14... 0....... 532
15... 0 .....463
16.. 250 ...640
17 ...0 .....558
18 ....0 ....485
19 ...250 ..660
20... 0 .....575
21 ...0 .....500
22 .250 ....673
23... 0.... 586
24... 0 ....510
25 ..250.. 681
26... 0 ....593
27... 0.... 518
28 ..250 ..687
29 ..0 .....598
30 ..0 ....521

and so on.
^^That BTW, IS why you frontload.
I used this web calc for these figures.

 

[st8grad]

Here it is, posted by Illusion on another board (Not named, because it's an open board).......


I am writing this but cannot take credit for it. This line of reasoning was pointed out to me by a bro who wishes to now remain anonymous.

GG and Superduty got me thinking tho so I'd thought I'd try to explain it.

The goal of injecting steriods is to increase blood levels of testosterone much higher than can be achieved normally. One of our criteria in doing this is to keep blood levels as stable as possible throughout cycle to provide the best environment for growth and to avoid as many sides as possible. I believe many side effects are caused by the spikes and dips created by once or twice a week injections, even using long esters. A way to reduce these sides would be to use a proper half life to determine when to inject or more importantly how much to frontload with.

Now most half lives are calculated on 1.5 x the number of carbon atoms to determine 1/2 life in days. Thats wrong! If you go to PubMed or AMJ you can look up numerous studies showing a much shorter half life(@ .7 per carbon atom)

That difference is because esters decay at a logarithmic rate, meaning the more esterified hormone in the injection depot, the more is released. This release rate slows as the amount of esterified hormone in the depot is reduced over time.
The general rule is about 0.7 X the number of carbons atoms in a linear ester . However when the body builder needs to keep in mind is that the majority of the esterified hormone is released, regardless of the ester, with the first 24hrs of injection because of the logarithmic rate of decay.
(THANKS TO BODY BY BALCO FOR HIS INFO)
What does this mean in simple terms?
I'll useTestosterone Enthante in an 8 week cycle as an example:

Assume a 5 day half life for enthanate based on .7 x it's carbons.
Injecting 579mg on day one of your cycle will provide stable levels of 550 mg per week for the duration of your cycle provided you replentish 75 mg EVERY DAY.
INJECT
Day 1- 579- giving you 550 mg in 24 hours
Day 2 75 giving you 550 mg
Day 3 75 550
Day 4 75 550
Day 5 75 550
Day 6 75 550
Day 7 75 550
Day 8 75 550
Day 9 75 550
Day10 75 550
Day11 75 550
Day12 75 550

and so on until day 57 when you stop injections
decay clearance is as follows
DAY Total MG
58 479
59 417
60 363
61 316
62 275
63 240
64 209
65 182
66 158
67 138
68 120
69 104
70 91
71 79
72 69
73 60
74 52
75 45
76 40
77 34
78 30
79 26
80 23
81 20
82 17
83 15
84 13
85 11
all the way down to day 98 (end of week 14) before the enth is totally cleared.
__________________


Enthanate Clearance 500 mg

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now let's look at 1 shot of test enthanate of 500mg taken on day one.

It will take 8 weeks to clear(assuming a 5 day 1/2 life)

DAY Injected 500 mg(level)

1 500
2 475
3 414
4 360
5 313
6 273
7 238
8 207
9 180
10 157
11 136
12 119
13 103
14 90

and so- on until week 9 when it reaches 0.

Enthanate injected E3D at 250 mg-levels

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOw lets look at Injections of Test Enthanate every 3 days with 250 mg.
Blood levels are all over the place and create many dips and spikes.
Not a prime anabolic environment. It takes 7 days and 3 injections to even get to 500 mg(498) adn then continues to dip and spike the 500 mark until week 4 but then the spikes are over 600 mg. This daily flucuation cannot be good for combating sides or keeping steady growth rate.
The other way to look at it is $$$$. 500 ed levels would be more economical. You'd gain more.
I wonder if the 2 grams a week guys would do better on 1 gram injected every day vs 3x a week.


DAY INJECT TOTAL

1.... .250.... 238
2 .......0..... 207..
3 ......0 .....180
4.... 250 ....394
5 ......0 .....343
6 ......0..... 299
7 .....250... 498
8 .....0...... 433
9..... 0 ......377
10 ..250 ....566
11... 0 ......493
12... 0..... 429
13 ..250..... 611
14... 0....... 532
15... 0 .....463
16.. 250 ...640
17 ...0 .....558
18 ....0 ....485
19 ...250 ..660
20... 0 .....575
21 ...0 .....500
22 .250 ....673
23... 0.... 586
24... 0 ....510
25 ..250.. 681
26... 0 ....593
27... 0.... 518
28 ..250 ..687
29 ..0 .....598
30 ..0 ....521

and so on.
^^That BTW, IS why you frontload.
I used this web calc for these figures.

Crap! So I have to frontload and then inject every day? It may take 3 weeks to kick in because you have to get over test flu first. I injected saturday and am feeling achy and shit. The test e injection is a little sore and swollen and the eq injection is fine. Ok, so with a longer acting ester, it takes longer to achieve the desired blood levels of said compound. I've agreed with that. Someone throw a chart on here that details the equivalent dose of test e and test prop -assuming a conventional and widely recomended dosage schedule for both and on what day the test levels hit around my desired amount. Given the chart, is it truly possible that I don't feel a damn thing on test e for three weeks but on test prop I feel the results quickly or immediately? Given the results of the chart will be whatever they will be, are we dismissing the fact that the body has to undergo major changes in size and strength to be perceptible to the human eye and to the brain of a lifter, that regardless of what anyone says, is hoping for results from whatever he is taking like instantly. Also, does the compound build up in your bodyfat and then get distributed to your bloodstream? That has got to be refutable beyond a doubt. I say that guys aren't "feeling it" until week three but it is working before that because they go in and bench 300 on day 1 of injection....one week later they bench 305.....the next 310....the next 320....ok so in three weeks now they see the improvement, but in weeks 1 & 2 there was improvement but not enough for them to jump for joy. I argue that part of the "kick in" period is because of guys perception on what is working or not working. Also I think that the ester in question regardless of time to enter the bloodstream is not clinically significant enough to elicit a dramatic difference. Even if I 75 more mg of test in my system in a week or even after 3 days, with one compound over another, is it that big of a difference to make a significant impact?

 

[njmuscleguy]

Ok, so what's the moral of this story now.... inject longer esters more frequient (e.g daily) or just switch to shorter esters and shoot them daily anyway?

 

[greyfoxsbs]

is there somwhere half lives are listed?

 

[st8grad]

is there somwhere half lives are listed?

http://www.elitefitness.com/articledata/esters.html

This article does say that test is test is test. It doesn't explain too much anything about long acting test "kicking in." I still will not understand how making something long acting would reduce its effectiveness as long as the dosage was upped to account for the diff in half life and the weight of the ester. It comes down to perception I am very sure.

 

[nydj66]

The term "test is test" simply means that the ester has to be cleaved off esterified gear so that the base steroid can be activated. So, regardless of the testosterone you inject it's free testosterone that causes the gains.

With shorter esters you have to inject more frequently but the cycles can be shorter (because you will reach full serum levels more quickly).

The advantage of longer esters is that you can inject less frequently. Injecting a long ester daily will result in less variation in serum levels but it's not necessary. Injecting test-e twice weekly works just fine. Cycle based on long esters are run for longer lengths of time and you have to wait longer after the last injection to start PCT.

Test prop is 79% testosterone by weight while test-e and cyp are both 69% testosterone by weight. That does make some difference when comparing compounds.

The bulk of the waiting time for a steroid to kick in is probably due to time it takes for the compound to begin affecting changes in the body. However, there is still about a weeks difference in the perceived effect of prop and enanthate in increased libido, energy, and strength. That difference I believe is due to the difference in half-life of the esters.