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Why Americans back the war

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JAMES CARROLL
Why Americans back the war
By James Carroll, Globe Columnist | September 21, 2004

THE WAR IN IRAQ goes from worse to catastrophic. Hundreds of Iraqis were killed last week, as were two dozen US soldiers. Planned elections in January point less to democracy than civil war. Kidnapping has become a weapon of terror on the ground, matching the terror of US air attacks. An American "take-back" offensive threatens to escalate the violence immeasurably. The secretary general of the United Nations pronounced the American war illegal.

In the United States, an uneasy electorate keeps its distance from all of this. Polls show that most Americans maintain faith in the Bush administration's handling of the war, while others greet reports of the disasters more with resignation than passionate opposition. To the mounting horror of the world, the United States of America is relentlessly bringing about the systematic destruction of a small, unthreatening nation for no good reason. Why has this not gripped the conscience of this country?

The answer goes beyond Bush to the 60-year history of an accidental readiness to destroy the earth, a legacy with which we Americans have yet to reckon. The punitive terror bombing that marked the end of World War II hardly registered with us. Then we passively accepted our government's mad embrace of thermonuclear weapons. While we demonized our Soviet enemy, we hardly noticed that almost every major escalation of the arms race was initiated by our side -- a race that would still be running if Mikhail Gorbachev had not dropped out of it.

In 1968, we elected Richard Nixon to end the war in Vietnam, then blithely acquiesced when he kept it going for years more. When Ronald Reagan made a joke of wiping out Moscow, we gathered a million strong to demand a nuclear "freeze," but then accepted the promise of "reduction," and took no offense when the promise was broken.

We did not think it odd that America's immediate response to the nonviolent fall of the Berlin Wall was an invasion of Panama. We celebrated the first Gulf War uncritically, even though that display of unchecked American power made Iran and North Korea redouble efforts to build a nuclear weapon, while prompting Osama bin Laden's jihad. The Clinton administration affirmed the permanence of American nukes as a "hedge" against unnamed fears, and we accepted it. We shrugged when the US Senate refused to ratify the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, with predictable results in India and Pakistan. We bought the expansion of NATO, the abrogation of the ABM Treaty, the embrace of National Missile Defense -- all measures that inevitably pushed other nations toward defensive escalation.

The war policy of George W. Bush -- "preventive war," unilateralism, contempt for Geneva -- breaks with tradition, but there is nothing new about the American population's refusal to face what is being done in our name. This is a sad, old story. It leaves us ill-equipped to deal with a pointless, illegal war. The Bush war in Iraq, in fact, is only the latest in a chain of irresponsible acts of a warrior government, going back to the firebombing of Tokyo. In comparison to that, the fire from our helicopter gunships above the cities of Iraq this week is benign. Is that why we take no offense?

Something deeply shameful has us in its grip. We carefully nurture a spirit of detachment toward the wars we pay for. But that means we cloak ourselves in cold indifference to the unnecessary suffering of others -- even when we cause it. We don't look at any of this directly because the consequent guilt would violate our sense of ourselves as nice people. Meaning no harm, how could we inflict such harm?

In this political season, the momentous issue of American-sponsored death is an inch below the surface, not quite hidden -- making the election a matter of transcendent importance. George W. Bush is proud of the disgraceful history that has paralyzed the national conscience on the question of war. He does not recognize it for what it is -- an American Tragedy. The American tragedy. John Kerry, by contrast, is attuned to the ethical complexity of this war narrative. We see that reflected in the complexity not only of his responses, but of his character -- and no wonder it puts people off. Kerry's problem, so far unresolved, is how to tell us what we cannot bear to know about ourselves. How to tell us the truth of our great moral squandering. The truth of what we are doing today in Iraq.
 
AristotleBC said:
Can the affective terminology


oh did rush teach you that ? if it wasnt there i would stop talking about it ..but it happens to be something i care about...and other americans care too....your types days are numbered.....and until it effects you directly you can stay in your McWorld. but then you will see it more clearly im sure
 
Look - There is no place for affective speak in a serious argument, which this ought to be. The ONLY purpose of those types of passages are to evoke an emotional response, which doesn't further objectivity.

I am sure you'd agree that using emotionalism to get us into war is fallacious; using it to speak out against it is equally so.

Stick to the facts. If the case is strong, emotive terms aren't necessary anyway, and it keeps one from looking silly.
 
AristotleBC said:
Look - There is no place for affective speak in a serious argument, which this ought to be. The ONLY purpose of those types of passages are to evoke an emotional response, which doesn't further objectivity.

I am sure you'd agree that using emotionalism to get us into war is fallacious; using it to speak out against it is equally so.

Stick to the facts. If the case is strong, emotive terms aren't necessary anyway, and it keeps one from looking silly.

its cool..sorry man..this shit realy does piss me off ...all i do is research this shit (besides work)...realy... im not kidding ...and all signs point to bush = bad..and i dont want anyone to go through what im going through right now..i want everyone to get along..or at least leave each other alone...sounds cheesy ....but it aint a perfectworld ... :spin:
 
Someone enlighten me. What was the supposed reason for the war in the first place?
 
biteme said:
Someone enlighten me. What was the supposed reason for the war in the first place?

oh i dunno ....ask a republican .....they have lots of reasons to go to war apparently....multiple reasons for the same issue ..it realy is a neat-o trick
 
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PERFECTWORLD said:
oh i dunno ....

Neither do I. Bush gave Sadaam 24 hours to get out of the country or we would attack? They had weapons of mass destruction? Really, what the fuck are we doing over there? What a tragic mess.
 
AristotleBC said:
Look - There is no place for affective speak in a serious argument, which this ought to be. The ONLY purpose of those types of passages are to evoke an emotional response, which doesn't further objectivity.

I am sure you'd agree that using emotionalism to get us into war is fallacious; using it to speak out against it is equally so.

Stick to the facts. If the case is strong, emotive terms aren't necessary anyway, and it keeps one from looking silly.
perhaps the writer of the article did not intend to engage in a serious, fact based argument; rather, (s)he may have sought to offset the pro-war emotion produced by the proponents of war, using exactly the same technique

oh, and biteme, the reason you guys got into this war was to basically control parts of the middle east for your own purposes - namely oil revenue, diversion of tax payer funds to various military contractors (at a huge loss to the tax payer, but hey, certain people still get rich), and to control some middle eastern realestate so as to have a better position to influence other ME nations, namely Iran

the reason most americans support the war is even simpler...ignorance

cheers
 
the reason most americans support the war is even simpler...ignorance

cheers[/QUOTE]

The average American is quite ignorant.
 
biteme said:
Neither do I. Bush gave Sadaam 24 hours to get out of the country or we would attack? They had weapons of mass destruction? Really, what the fuck are we doing over there? What a tragic mess.

actually after 9-11 bush sent wepons inspectors over to find "whatever"...they found some missles ....inspectors told him to dispose of them...(they buried them with bulldozers ..i saw it on cnn happening .complying with the inspectors ....not finding any wmd..shortly after we invaded iraq....
 
GoldenDelicious said:
perhaps the writer of the article did not intend to engage in a serious, fact based argument; rather, (s)he may have sought to offset the pro-war emotion produced by the proponents of war, using exactly the same technique

oh, and biteme, the reason you guys got into this war was to basically control parts of the middle east for your own purposes - namely oil revenue, diversion of tax payer funds to various military contractors (at a huge loss to the tax payer, but hey, certain people still get rich), and to control some middle eastern realestate so as to have a better position to influence other ME nations, namely Iran

the reason most americans support the war is even simpler...ignorance

cheers

ouch ...bitting....but true
 
PERFECTWORLD said:
actually after 9-11 bush sent wepons inspectors over to find "whatever"...they found some missles ....inspectors told him to dispose of them...(they buried them with bulldozers ..i saw it on cnn happening .complying with the inspectors ....not finding any wmd..shortly after we invaded iraq....

So basically there wasn't a sound reason and we violated the UN pact? I have yet to hear a valid reason for this war.
 
biteme said:
So basically there wasn't a sound reason and we violated the UN pact? I have yet to hear a valid reason for this war.

Exactly !!!!....if you were a girl i kiss you


j/k

i swear to god im ready to storm the whitehouse and drag those wigs out of bed
 
biteme said:
So basically there wasn't a sound reason and we violated the UN pact?
yeah, pretty much

i wouldnt call it a violation of a pact as much as id call it a complete undermining (practical and symbolic) of one of the more useful organisations in the world

something i have to say though, is that if the US military is overextended right now, through its occupation of 2 fairly toothless countries (comparitively...the afghans and iraqis were dirt poor, have no airforce, shitty equipment...), an enemy of the calibre of, say, Iran, or North Korea might just be a bit of a problem...

i think a little attitude adjustment is in order
 
GoldenDelicious said:
the reason most americans support the war is even simpler...ignorance

cheers
All I hear day in and day out is how much my fellow Americans are opposed to the war. Yes , there's many who are for it but I think they're the same people who stocked up on the food and water for Y2K.
 
biteme said:
So basically there wasn't a sound reason and we violated the UN pact? I have yet to hear a valid reason for this war.

I think there was an entirely valid reason for the war - highly immoral but valid - oil , money and strategic interest.
 
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September 23, 2004

















The White House may have had a reason to go to war with Iraq that had nothing to do with whether or not Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. (Larry Downing/Reuters) Reason for War?
White House Officials Say Privately the Sept. 11 Attacks Changed Everything

By John Cochran



W A S H I N G T O N, April 25 — To build its case for war with Iraq, the Bush administration argued that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, but some officials now privately acknowledge the White House had another reason for war — a global show of American power and democracy.

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Officials inside government and advisers outside told ABCNEWS the administration emphasized the danger of Saddam's weapons to gain the legal justification for war from the United Nations and to stress the danger at home to Americans.
"We were not lying," said one official. "But it was just a matter of emphasis."

Officials now say they may not find hundreds of tons of mustard and nerve agents and maybe not thousands of liters of anthrax and other toxins. But U.S. forces will find some, they say. On Thursday, President Bush raised the possibility for the first time that any such Iraqi weapons were destroyed before or during the war.

If weapons of mass destruction were not the primary reason for war, what was? Here's the answer officials and advisers gave ABCNEWS.

The Sept. 11, 2001, attacks changed everything, including the Bush administration's thinking about the Middle East — and not just Saddam Hussein.

Senior officials decided that unless action was taken, the Middle East would continue to be a breeding ground for terrorists. Officials feared that young Arabs, angry about their lives and without hope, would always looking for someone to hate — and that someone would always be Israel and the United States.

Europeans thought the solution was to get a peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians. But American officials felt a Middle East peace agreement would only be part of the solution.

The Bush administration felt that a new start was needed in the Middle East and that Iraq was the place to show that it is democracy — not terrorism — that offers hope.

Sending a Message

Beyond that, the Bush administration decided it must flex muscle to show it would fight terrorism, not just here at home and not just in Afghanistan against the Taliban, but in the Middle East, where it was thriving.

Officials deny that Bush was captured by the aggressive views of neo-conservatives. But Bush did agree with some of their thinking.

"We made it very public that we thought that one consequence the president should draw from 9/11 is that it was unacceptable to sit back and let either terrorist groups or dictators developing weapons of mass destruction strike first at us," conservative commentator Bill Kristol said on ABCNEWS' Nightline in March.

The Bush administration wanted to make a statement about its determination to fight terrorism. And officials acknowledge that Saddam had all the requirements to make him, from their standpoint, the perfect target.

Other countries have such weapons, yet the United States did not go to war with them. And though Saddam oppressed and tortured his own people, other tyrants have done the same without incurring U.S. military action. Finally, Saddam had ties to terrorists — but so have several countries that the United States did not fight.

But Saddam was guilty of all these things and he met another requirement as well — a prime location, in the heart of the Middle East, between Syria and Iran, two countries the United States wanted to send a message to.

That message: If you collaborate with terrorists, you do so at your own peril.

Officials said that even if Saddam had backed down and avoided war by admitting to having weapons of mass destruction, the world would have received the same message; Don't mess with the United States.

Former CIA Director James Woolsey said on Nightline this week that although he believed Saddam was a serious threat and had dangerous weapons, going to war to prove a point was wrong.

"I don't think you should go to war to set examples or send messages," Woolsey said. Get the transcript of the Woolsey interview.

Sept. 11, 2001

But what if Sept. 11 had never happened? Would the United States have gone to war with Iraq? Administration officials and others say no, at least not now.

The Bush administration could probably have lived with the threat of Saddam and might have gone after him eventually if, for example, the Iraqi leader had become more aggressive in pursuing a nuclear program or in sponsoring terrorism.

But again, Sept. 11 changed all that.

Listen closely, officials said, to what Bush was really saying to the American people before the war.

"I hope they understand the lesson of September the 11th," Bush said on March 6. "The lesson is, is that we're vulnerable to attack, wherever it may occur, and we must take threats which gather overseas very seriously. We don't have to deal with them all militarily, but we have to deal with them."

Has the war done what the officials ABCNEWS talked to wanted?

It seems to have improved the behavior of the Syrians and maybe the Iranians, they said, although there is still concern that Iran will meddle in Iraq. And it may have even put some fear in the North Koreans, they added. Plus, they said it probably has helped the Middle East peace process.

But will Iraq be the model that can persuade young Arabs there is more to life than hatred? Too early to know, they said.

Their point: We are deeply worried about the Shiites. It will be a tragedy if radical, anti-American elements gain control in post-Saddam Iraq.

One official said that in the end, history and the American people will judge the United States not by whether U.S. officials find canisters of poison gas or vials of some biological agent.

History will judge the United States, the official said, by whether this war marked the beginning of the end for the terrorists who hate America.






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SVT-TROY said:
All I hear day in and day out is how much my fellow Americans are opposed to the war. Yes , there's many who are for it but I think they're the same people who stocked up on the food and water for Y2K.


LOL 'bout 2 years or so ago when I was pro-service peeps but anti-war (a VERY politically incorrect point of view for an "American" to have at the time) I was blown out of the water by these very same rocket scientists! Heheheheheheeee I still remember one MORON had the balls to post because I was "anti-war" that meant that I was "anti-American-troops" as they were WARriors! hehehehehe

One REAL SMART dumbass even tried to explain why we went to war likening Hussein to a neighbor that is beating his wife, etc. It was "our duty" to not close the blinds and pretend it wasn't happening because "you never know when that neighbor will start to violate us as he doesn't have respect for HIS OWN HOUSE!" Yet that same old dumbass ignores the fact that his own "real life" friends beat the shit out of their significant others!!!! hehehehehee

The funniest part of all of this was that these rocket scientists were MY FRIENDS! HEHehehehehehheeee

Now they are all happily beating the shit out of each other somewhere... or at least busy putting their head back in their assholes ignoring how some of them are busy beating the shit out of each other because "it isn't really happening" - *wink*

Gotta love war mongers!

Imagine that... my viewpoints haven't changed and now I am the one that is "politically correct"!
 
.

History will judge the United States, the official said, by whether this war marked the beginning of the end for the terrorists who hate America.

How can terrorism ever be stopped?
 
"Terrorism" is just another word for people who dont do what we say and we dont like - the US supported OBL in Afghanistan before and Hussein , before it called them freedom fighters - that was when they were doing things that the US liked (mostly committing "terrorism" against the Soviets/Iran).
The US has refused to hand over Chechen "terrorists" to the Russia post school massacre and yet Bush moans on about a war against terror.
The only way to stop this is to stop lies and deceit and be fair to all parties - thats what happened in the North of Ireland. Sit down and listen to them and hammer out an agreement which would be enforced - lotta people wouldnt like it (I'm thinkin Israel specifically) but if you want peace and stability then thats the cost.

Oh and all of the above goes for the Russians too.
 
Last edited:
Mandinka2 said:
"Terrorism" is just another word for people who dont do what we say and we dont like



No it isn't. We don't care what Joe Islam does, but when he starts bombing us so we get out of Saudi, or so he can try and destroy the "Great Unbeliever" in prelude to the world being encircled into an Islamist theocracy, we care and call him a terrorist.
 
As Pat Buchanan so correctly quotes in his book, "Terrorism is the price of Empire."

What he is referring to of course, is how the neo-conservative movement has entirely hijacked the Bush presidency, and sent us in this direction. We now, are building our very own West Bank, except instead of 500,000 Palestinians, it consists of 20,000,000 Iraqis. We made a mistake going into Iraq when we did, and without the support we needed. We should've stayed on mission in Afghanistan. Had we committed the same effort, troops, and money to that mission, as we now have bogged in Iraq, we may be able to legitimately declare 'mission accomplished' in that theater at least. Instead, we now have both countries, from logistical and security standpoints, becoming a nightmare, we control less and less every day, especially in Iraq. Usama bin Laden has clearly become Usama bin Forgotten in this administration's eyes, and yesterday, the President said that the central focus of the war on TERROR is Baghdad.... :freak:

After all this, combined with the sorry state of affairs we have at home, this guy has the unmitigated GALL to ask for my vote on a second term...

I am a veteran. I voted for John McCain in the 2000 primaries. I consider myself fiscally conservative, and socially, pretty liberal. After al of the on-the-job training in foreign policy that Bush has had, at the expense of over a thousand American lives lost in an unnecessary undertaking, there is no way that I can see why an independent minded, non-affiliated person could vote to keep GW Bush.... JMHO


As a sidebar, the definition of a 'terrorist' as being an extremist Muslim is a false one... Go back in history... Terrorism is a tactic, not a country. Our president has finally realized that...

Sidebar 2: I don't think Kerry is a perfect candidate. But between these two men, he is CERTIANLY the lesser of 2 evils.
 
The hilarious part is that this administration actually thought that unilaterally invading another country and trying to force your idea of democracy on them would have the desired affect. As I said at the time and repeatedly since then, IT WILL DO THE OPPOSITE YOUR MORONS!

Is it really the case that Bush and all his high paid strategists cannot see that doing this will exponentially increase the hatred of America in the region and create potential breeding grounds for even more terrorists for decades to come? Are they really that dense?

Every day in Iraq, this is proving to be the case more and more.
 
AristotleBC said:
If terrorism is the price of empire, why did we get hit most in the 1990's?

Are you saying that we weren't engaging in empirical activities then??? Please... Iraq makes these activities worse, but the neo-con movement in some form or another has been moving into all phases of American poiltics and foreign policy since the fifties...
 
PERFECTWORLD said:
THE WAR IN IRAQ goes from worse to catastrophic.

Nazi Germany = catastrophic
Pol Pot = Catastrophic
Chairman Mao = Catatrophic
Stalin = Catastrophic.
Iraq = a low intensity conflict.

Hundreds of Iraqis were killed last week, as were two dozen US soldiers.

A tragedy, sure. Anyone have any stats on improvements?

Planned elections in January point less to democracy than civil war.

Non sequitur / contradictory.

Kidnapping has become a weapon of terror on the ground, matching the terror of US air attacks.

Horseshit.
1. Kidnapping and terror are old buddies, ask FARC.
2. American air attacks and beheading civilians are not equivalent.

An American "take-back" offensive threatens to escalate the violence immeasurably.

Or stop the violence, when all the terrorists that this author freely admits exist are killed.

The secretary general of the United Nations pronounced the American war illegal.

I am surprised he had time to do this while still managing to count all the money his organization stole

In the United States, an uneasy electorate keeps its distance from all of this.

I'm not uneasy. You?

Polls show that most Americans maintain faith in the Bush administration's handling of the war, while others greet reports of the disasters more with resignation than passionate opposition.

Wow. Americans have different opinions. This also contradicts the use of "uneasy" above.

To the mounting horror of the world,

Ha. The majority of the world's citizens live in such poverty that reading isn't even an option, much less vociferous opposition to the US's foreign policy. Are we to assume the author concluded this after he asked
1. Chinese rice farmers
2. Indian street beggars
3. Bangladeshi mud hut dwellers
4. One armed African diamond miners

or was this written after consluting with

5. A few angry kids from berkeley?

the United States of America is relentlessly bringing about the systematic destruction of a small, unthreatening nation

We could destroy Iraq in a week. Level it flat, occupy, conquer and enslave its people tomorrow. We're not there to destroy it, that is self evident by our actions. Talk to someone who's been there.

for no good reason. Why has this not gripped the conscience of this country?

Right. Why has the country not decided to sit on its hands and watch the world pass us by? Nice.

The answer goes beyond Bush to the 60-year history of an accidental readiness to destroy the earth, a legacy with which we Americans have yet to reckon.

Doomsday predictions always get the attention of dumb readers. See "Weekly World News". I wonder if the author would accept that he implies it was king liberal FDR that started this policy, or if he ignores all that.

The punitive terror bombing that marked the end of World War II hardly registered with us.

I guess we were too upset about the 400,000 US dead and too happy about destroying Germany and Japan to get mad about that. This is really some twisted bullshit from your author.

"Punitive terror bombing" after WW2. WHo started the war? The greatest war of all time? Who? America? Did we invade Poland? Did we bomb Pearl Harbor? No and No. But other barbaric leaders did. And now this moron who wrote this article indicts us for "punitive" actions against these nations which plunged the world into war. Bizarre.

Scarier still is people support this horseshit.

Then we passively accepted our government's mad embrace of thermonuclear weapons.

Funny how being at war for 5 years wants to make you prepare to destroy the next enemy, huh?

While we demonized our Soviet enemy,

We demonized them? I thought it was Stalin rushing peasants to the Gulag and stifling dissent....they demonized themselves. The USSR - the greatest mass murderer of all time, and we demonized them? LOL!

we hardly noticed that almost every major escalation of the arms race was initiated by our side -- a race that would still be running if Mikhail Gorbachev had not dropped out of it.

Why did he drop out of it? because HIS COUNTRY FELL APART. Because our foreign policy toward the USSR worked!

In 1968, we elected Richard Nixon to end the war in Vietnam, then blithely acquiesced when he kept it going for years more.

Yep. And what THIS has to do with anything in the rest of this post is anyone's guess!

When Ronald Reagan made a joke of wiping out Moscow, we gathered a million strong to demand a nuclear "freeze," but then accepted the promise of "reduction," and took no offense when the promise was broken.

Yep. Probably because the USSR collapsed.

We did not think it odd that America's immediate response to the nonviolent fall of the Berlin Wall was an invasion of Panama.

As if Noriega had anything to do with Europe and oir policies ever coalesced regarding the Iron Curtain and Panama.

We celebrated the first Gulf War uncritically, even though that display of unchecked American power made Iran and North Korea redouble efforts to build a nuclear weapon, while prompting Osama bin Laden's jihad.

We fought that war to protect Muslims, specifically Saudis and Kuwaitis. Iran's theocratic regime wanted a bomb long before that. What is even funnier in this article is that the author admits it is OK for Iran and NK to want a nuclkear bomb after Gulf War I, but when the US wanted nukes post WW2, we were on a "mad craze". Illogic, anyone?

The Clinton administration affirmed the permanence of American nukes as a "hedge" against unnamed fears, and we accepted it.

OK for Iran, bad for us? LOL!!

We shrugged when the US Senate refused to ratify the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, with predictable results in India and Pakistan.

Shall we assume the US Senate has dominion over the actions of India and Pakistan?

We bought the expansion of NATO

An odd quarrel, given that unilateralism is later derided.

the abrogation of the ABM Treaty, the embrace of National Missile Defense -- all measures that inevitably pushed other nations toward defensive escalation.

Defensive escalation? Defense against who? The US? Ha! The US represents the first empire in the history of the world that can truly conquer the entire world.

There is no defense; the difference between our forces and the rest of the world is unthinkable. Ten aircraft carriers! Russia alone has more than two, and they are in disrepair. We could build more tomorrow. If the US assumed a militaristic posture, we'd conquer the world. There is no "defensive escalation". Our military seems tame because we are bending over backwards to not be fierce in Iraq.

Note: I don't advocate American militarism for the sake of militarism. It is a credit to our nation that we do not seek to grow our empire through military conquest. But we could own the world pretty fast.

The war policy of George W. Bush -- "preventive war," unilateralism, contempt for Geneva -- breaks with tradition, but there is nothing new about the American population's refusal to face what is being done in our name.

Our contempt for geneva equals our enemies. If you want to fight a war, you bring it to them.


This is a sad, old story. It leaves us ill-equipped to deal with a pointless, illegal war.

If you don't think this war is warranted, then you believe the Middle east is fine. If you believe the Middle east is fine....you must be deaf and blind.

The Bush war in Iraq, in fact, is only the latest in a chain of irresponsible acts of a warrior government, going back to the firebombing of Tokyo. In comparison to that, the fire from our helicopter gunships above the cities of Iraq this week is benign. Is that why we take no offense?

Is this guy actually arguing that we should not have firebombed Tokyo? To him I say, "Bataan Death March"

Something deeply shameful has us in its grip. We carefully nurture a spirit of detachment toward the wars we pay for. But that means we cloak ourselves in cold indifference to the unnecessary suffering of others -- even when we cause it.

This contradicts the statements above. If the author writes Polls show that most Americans maintain faith in the Bush administration's handling of the war, while others greet reports of the disasters more with resignation than passionate opposition. then how can he say we are indifferent?

We don't look at any of this directly because the consequent guilt would violate our sense of ourselves as nice people. Meaning no harm, how could we inflict such harm?

I think we do mean harm. We mean harm to terrorists, theocracies, Islamic dictatorships etc. We are nice people, nice enough to know that these systems of government are inherently bad, and nice enough to bring about their demise.

In this political season, the momentous issue of American-sponsored death is an inch below the surface, not quite hidden -- making the election a matter of transcendent importance.

One second we don't care, it's OK, we've been doing this for 60 years, NOW this is an issue of transcendant importance? Did it become that today? yesterday?

George W. Bush is proud of the disgraceful history that has paralyzed the national conscience on the question of war. He does not recognize it for what it is -- an American Tragedy. The American tragedy.

Destorying Japan and Germany: Not a tragedy
Destroying the USSR: Not a tragedy
Removing the greatest killer of Muslims since the Crusades: Not a tragedy

John Kerry, by contrast, is attuned to the ethical complexity of this war narrative. We see that reflected in the complexity not only of his responses, but of his character -- and no wonder it puts people off.

Yes, the answer to a problem with humanity is contained in a Senator from Massachusetts. Amazingly it is the same guy who oted for the war, against the war, said he would not remove Saddam, then he would.....yep, sounds like just what we need. And just for good measure, Kerry will throw some extra controls on business too.

Kerry's problem, so far unresolved, is how to tell us what we cannot bear to know about ourselves. How to tell us the truth of our great moral squandering. The truth of what we are doing today in Iraq.

I honestly cannot understand how anyone can take this sort of self-contradictory, illogical, and untrue nonsense and consider it seriously.

this is complete and total bullshit. And it is poorly written. And illogical. And wrong. And contradictory.

Think for yourself orb, I don't have the time to urinate on your posts inch by inch anymore.
 
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"this is complete and total bullshit. And it is poorly written. And illogical. And wrong. And contradictory. "

and this is your opinion...which you are Entitled to...........right?

i thought it was a very thought provoking article...judging by your post you found it the same....
 
wow AND your smater than this guy ...you should get off the internet "PISSING ON MY POST " and do some good for the world....



Biographical Sketch
Writer James Carroll was born in Chicago on January 22, 1943. He has been a civil rights activist, antiwar demonstrator and a Catholic priest, but he left the priesthood in 1974 to concentrate on his writing.
The author has described his 1978 novel about Irish immigrants, Mortal Friends, which has sold more than one million copies, as "the book that gave me my career." He has also stated that his life and family have profoundly influenced his writing, which includes subjects as diverse as the Catholic church, the Vietnam War, the Boston Irish, the FBI and the Rosenberg spy case. However, it is his deeply-felt memoir, An American Requiem, the National Book Award winner, described by Robert Patton in the Washington Post as one of the "best memoirs of Vietnam combat" that is closest to his own life story.

James Carroll attended Georgetown University and graduated from St. Paul's College, Washington, D.C. with a B.A. in 1966 and an M.A. in 1968. He studied with Southern poet Allen Tate at the University of Minnesota. He is married to novelist Alexandra Marshall. The writers have two children, Elizabeth and Patrick, and live in Boston, where Carroll is a columnist with the Boston Globe.

James Carroll has written several religious works, and has contributed articles and poetry to journals, including Catholic World, Poetry, Christian Century, Ploughshares, and The New Yorker.

For further biographical information see the following titles in the Reference Section of the Main Library:

Who's Who in America
Biog. Ref. E663 .W56
Contemporary Authors v. 81-84
Biog. Ref. Z1224 .C6 v.81-84
Contemporary Literary Criticism v. 38
Ref PN771 .C59 v.38
Current Biography May 1997
Biog. Ref. CT100 .C8

Books by James Carroll
Forbidden Disappointments: Poems. New York: Paulist Press, 1974.
The Winter Name of God. New York: Sheed and Ward, 1975.

Madonna Red. Boston, Little, Brown, 1976.

Mortal Friends. Boston, Little, Brown, 1978. (PS3553 .A764 M6)

Fault Lines. Boston, Little, Brown, 1980. (PS3553 .A764 F3 1980)

Family Trade. Boston, G.K. Hall, 1982.

Prince of Peace. Boston, Little, Brown, 1984.

Supply of Heroes. New York, Dutton, 1986. (PS3553 .A764 S8 1986)

Firebird. New York, Dutton, 1989.

Memorial Bridge. Boston, Houghton, Mifflin, 1991. (PS3553 .A764 M4 1991)

The City Below. Boston, Houghton, Mifflin, 1994. (PS3553 .A764 C58 1994)

An American Requiem. Boston, Houghton, Mifflin, 1996. (PS3553 .A764 Z464 1996 )



Interviews
Basbanes, Nicholas. "James Carroll: a Memoir of Fathers and Sons: Interview." Publishers Weekly. 243 (May 27, 1996): 52-53.*
*Full text of this article is available through the Brandeis Libraries' Electronic Research Center workstations . To access from the Brandeis University Library's Homepage, click on "InfoTrac Web", then click on the "Proceed" button, and enter "Expanded Academic ASAP." At the entry box type the search: carroll james and submit.

Gilmour, Peter. "Father, Son, and an Unholy War: Peter Gilmour Interviews James Carroll." U.S. Catholic. 62:5 (May 1, 1997):27.**

Kenney, Michael. "Publish and Cherish: Alexandra Marshall and James Carroll Live a Literary Love Story." Boston Globe. February 27, 1997:E1

Spalding, John D. "Father & Son, God & Country." Commonweal. 124:10 (May 23, 1997):12.


Articles and Essays about James Carroll
Baumann, Paul. "Notebook: Re: James Carroll." Commonweal 124:10 (May 23, 1997): 6.
Carroll, James. "Annals of Vietnam: A Friendship that Ended the War." New Yorker. October 21, 1996:130-156.

Green, Martin. "The FBI and Leo Tolstoy: James Carroll's Themes: the Pull of Violence and the Moral Necessity of Nonviolence." Atlantic Monthly. July 1994:100-106.*

*Full text of this article is available through the Brandeis Libraries' Electronic Research Center workstations . To access from the Brandeis University Library's Homepage, click on "InfoTrac Web", then click on the "Proceed" button, and enter "Expanded Academic ASAP." At the entry box type the search: carroll james and submit.

Kennedy, Eugene. "The Bright, Wounded Generation." Commonweal108:7(April 10, 1981):216-218.

O'Rourke, William. "James Carroll." Signs of the Literary Times. Albany, NY: State University of New York Press, 1993. 102-104.

Schott, Webster. "Maguire the Mettlesome Priest." New York Times Book Review. November 4, 1984:44.****

****In order to view this document via the Internet, one may become an online subscriber to The New York Times from their home computer (currently free) by going to The New York Times web site (http://www.nytimes.com/). After subscribing, click on "books". In order to search the New York Times Book Review archives for the full text of the review, type 'james carroll' using the single quote marks, and scroll down to the review you wish to read.

Suplee, Curt. "Confessions of an Ex-Priest: James Carroll's Ministry of Fiction." Washington Post. June 1, 1982:B1.

Tagliabue, John. "Still Exorcising Demons from a Long-Ago War." New York Times. November 14, 1996:C15.

Thompson, Betty. "Touches of Grace from Three Writers." Christian Century. 107:8 (March 7, 1990):237.


Reviews of An American Requiem
"An American Requiem." New Yorker. 72 (August 12, 1996):73
Bushkoff, Leonard. "A Son's Memoir of Sadness and Hope." Christian Science Monitor. May 23, 1996:B1.

Eder, Richard. "At War with My Father; Memoir. Los Angeles Times Book Review. May 19, 1996:2.

Kisor, Henry. "James Carroll's Haunting Memoir." Chicago Sun-Times. June 16, 1996:14.

Lehmann-Haupt, Christopher. "For One Man and His Father, the War at Home." The New York Times. May 9, 1996:C18.

Niebuhr, Gustav. "The War at Home." The New York Times Book Review. May 19, 1996:7:36.****

****In order to view this document via the Internet, one may become an online subscriber to The New York Times from their personal computer (currently free) by going to The New York Times web site (http://www.nytimes.com/). After subscribing, click on "books". In order to search the New York Times Book Review archives for the full text of the review, type 'james carroll' using the single quote marks, and scroll down to the review you wish to read.

Patton, Robert. "In Memoriam." Washington Post Book World. June 16, 1996:12.

Samway, Patrick. "Terrible Longings." America. 174:19 (June 8, 1996):24.*

*Full text of this article is available through the Brandeis Libraries' Electronic Research Center workstations. To access from the Brandeis University Library's Homepage, click on "InfoTrac Web", then click on the "Proceed" button, and enter "Expanded Academic ASAP." At the entry box type the search: carroll james and submit.

Uebbing, James. "An American Requiem." Commonweal. 123:13 (July 12, 1996):25.*

*Full text of this article is available through the Brandeis Libraries' Electronic Research Center workstations. To access from the Brandeis University Library's Homepage, click on "InfoTrac Web", then click on the "Proceed" button, and enter "Expanded Academic ASAP." At the entry box type the search: carroll james and submit.

[Return to Table of Contents]
Last updated: 03/04/03
©2004 Brandeis University Libraries


:heks:
 
PERFECTWORLD said:
"this is complete and total bullshit. And it is poorly written. And illogical. And wrong. And contradictory. "

and this is your opinion...which you are Entitled to...........right?

i thought it was a very thought provoking article...judging by your post you found it the same....

James Carroll is a wonderful author. His book "Constantine's Sword" is among my personal favorites; a true history of Europe in the grips of the Catholic church for 1600 years. I recommend it highly; maybe the best book I have ever read.

Carroll's formal seminary education is clear when you read the article you provided. It is clear that he adheres to the doctrine of American exceptionalism while expecting nothing else of the rest of the world. (Iran, North Korea etc.)

We are supposed to be morally superior even in an inferior world (his implicit statement). Not surprisingly, that's the same thought process a Catholic priest would have; that he should "minister to the world", just as the US should, while doing no wrong.

The sheer illogic and hypocrisy of his article is delivered with the straightforwardness only a Catholic priset can muster when shoveling such nonsense. Carroll left the priesthood, it did not leave him.

Lastly, if you are familiar with this author, you'll understand that he shares some personal sense of guilt (thorugh his parents) for the Holocaust and the role of the church in it). Carroll's Dad was an army officer and his mom held a position which allows Carroll to meet the pope and do all sorts of church shit, which formed his thought process visible in this article.

it;s really easy to see....and really easy to see why he's so full of shit here. I could go deeper into it, but I don't think you have enough background on this author, or on formal Catholic education, to make a discussion worthwhile.

Am I smarter than he is? Don't know. probably :)

Do some good for the world? I've created 100+ jobs, as well as serving my country.

What have you done, other than copy, paste, and point fingers?
 
nothing you win good job ..have a party by your rugged individual-self...ill pull myself up by my bootstraps here with the common people ....
 
MattTheSkywalker said:
A tragedy, sure. Anyone have any stats on improvements?

True, I would like to see the total stats. I'm tired of either side saying that its getting better or worse to help their version of the truth.

MattTheSkywalker said:
We could destroy Iraq in a week. Level it flat, occupy, conquer and enslave its people tomorrow. We're not there to destroy it, that is self evident by our actions. Talk to someone who's been there.

Note: I don't advocate American militarism for the sake of militarism. It is a credit to our nation that we do not seek to grow our empire through military conquest. But we could own the world pretty fast.
Personally, I doubt this. If the US tried, I could see the world come back at you. Sure, you could level one small country, but I doubt that you'd take on the world. Besides, if you thought that the terrorism to the US was bad before. After all, Nero, Britain, everyone gets their time in the sun, but it doesn't last forever.

Doomsday predictions always get the attention of dumb readers.
Calling people dumb, doesn't help either. Just lay out ALL facts and let the people decide for themselves.

If you don't think this war is warranted, then you believe the Middle east is fine. If you believe the Middle east is fine....you must be deaf and blind.
Presuposition. I don't think that that the war is warranted unless there is a clear and present danger against your country. You may see it. I don't. Enlighten how Iraq was a danger to the US.

If the Iraqi want freedom (and I'm sure alot did), then my opinions it that they should have a revolution for their freedom. If they rely on another country (US), then when they are free, they start bitching about the new country who helped them out.
 
PERFECTWORLD said:
oh i dunno ....ask a republican .....they have lots of reasons to go to war apparently....multiple reasons for the same issue ..it realy is a neat-o trick

Or you can ask for the all but 1 democrat who voted for the war. They should know.

You partisan people are really idiotic.
 
75th said:
Or you can ask for the all but 1 democrat who voted for the war. They should know.

You partisan people are really idiotic.


your right that was a stupid crack on my part...im sure some republicans didnt want war....a lot are coming around now as well.....(i was pissed off or something at that point i dont remember :chomp:) ...i need a stick to beat off all the bush backers and that doesnt mean republican ,most conservative republicans dont recognize what he is either...
 
FLASHMAN73 said:
Are you saying that we weren't engaging in empirical activities then??? Please... Iraq makes these activities worse, but the neo-con movement in some form or another has been moving into all phases of American poiltics and foreign policy since the fifties...


Please define "empirical activities."

(You mean imperial activities, but please define it.)


Does this mean anything outside isolationism? Is isolationism really that realistic now? Did it even work well for us in the 20th century?


One thing I tire of are the armchair theorists. "Oh wouldn't it be great if the world was this way. The world should be this way."

Never addressing reality.
 
EnderJE said:
True, I would like to see the total stats. I'm tired of either side saying that its getting better or worse to help their version of the truth.

My sources are from people who have been there; I was in the Army for a while and alot of my friends were part of the invasion / rebuild.

Their stories are that we ar enot brutally killing people wholesale, we are doing wverything we can to foster good relations, etc.

Personally, I doubt this. If the US tried, I could see the world come back at you. Sure, you could level one small country, but I doubt that you'd take on the world. Besides, if you thought that the terrorism to the US was bad before. After all, Nero, Britain, everyone gets their time in the sun, but it doesn't last forever.

I was a soldier, I hate the idea of war, I know the people who fight it, I want them to live, on all sides. The idea of a state sending people out to die is abhorrent to me.

But I must say, the rest of the world is no match for American military might. We have more aircraft carriers than the rest of the world put together, doubled. We have fighter planes beyond anyone else, and we have trhe economic resources to build up a war machine like nothing that has ever been seen before. We've shot down missiles with lasers in tests; with a militarisitc posture we could filed this in weeks. Our tanks are so far beyond what anyone else has.....

The only thing stopping the US from conquering the world is the US. That makes us different than past empires. Will we last forever? No. Every nation collapses, so we the US.

Russia can't even silence Chechnya. China can't even feed its people.


Calling people dumb, doesn't help either. Just lay out ALL facts and let the people decide for themselves.

Actually I did a pretty good job of that in my post, I thought.

Presuposition. I don't think that that the war is warranted unless there is a clear and present danger against your country. You may see it. I don't. Enlighten how Iraq was a danger to the US.

The war in Iraq is designed to change the look of the Middle East; to impact Iran and Saudi Arabia and hasten the civil unrest there that will bring about democracy.

Both of those nations are teetering on collapse; Iran's citizenry is 60% under 30 years old and not too in love with hard line government. Saudi Arabia has 30% unemployment and per capita income has fallen 80% since 1980.

Both of those nations are state terror sponsors; no one denies this.

Our strategic goal is to bring about change throughout the region; we invaded Iraq to plant those seeds by hastening reform there, and allowing that to serve as a model.

This strategy can be critiqued, but it never is on this board. Rhetoric prevails, like in most of America.

If the Iraqi want freedom (and I'm sure alot did), then my opinions it that they should have a revolution for their freedom. If they rely on another country (US), then when they are free, they start bitching about the new country who helped them out.

That's a fair criticism of our strategy. Congrats, you;re the first :)
 
AristotleBC said:
No it isn't. We don't care what Joe Islam does, but when he starts bombing us so we get out of Saudi, or so he can try and destroy the "Great Unbeliever" in prelude to the world being encircled into an Islamist theocracy, we care and call him a terrorist.

How does that square with the US sponsored "terrorism/freedom-fighting" that "liberated" (oh dear!) Afghanistan from the Soviets in the name of Islam ?
 
MattTheSkywalker said:
Their stories are that we are not brutally killing people wholesale, we are doing everything we can to foster good relations, etc.
That is my assumption as with Vietnam. Some soldiers are good, some are bad. Unfortunately, the bad get the press.

MattTheSkywalker said:
But I must say, the rest of the world is no match for American might...
Given on a level playing field. I doubt you'd be able to stop "dirtier" tactics unless you closed all borders and clense your own staff (like the Muslim priest who threw in a grenade right before the way, still can't get over that one).

My impression is that this is where you'd have a problem. You level the city, one crazy army guy fires a nuke at his own base...blah..blah..blah...

MattTheSkywalker said:
Both of those nations are state terror sponsors; no one denies this.

Our strategic goal is to bring about change throughout the region; we invaded Iraq to plant those seeds by hastening reform there, and allowing that to serve as a model.
Point taken. Put that way, it does make sense.

Unfortunately, it appears to serve as a lightening rod for hardliners and the state sponsored terrorists. Now its just a matter of time and bloodshed until it becomes the "beacon" of change that you are professing.

But I do see the point. Eventually, the terrorism will stop and it will be free. There is no other way at this point, because you can't back down no matter what happens now.

As you know, trading with terrorists never works out. :)

On a somewhat related note, I can't believe that some countries back out because of this. So what if one or ten people get captured and are threatened with beheading. "Needs of the many..."
 
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