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Which brand AR-15?

juiceddreadlocks said:
defense.
Click to expand...

For defense you can pretty much go with any of the big names, I personally am partial to Bushmaster. Depending upon what distance you will be engaging targets, you might want to look into an M4 or Flat-top so you can use some kind of optic as your primary sighting system. It's makes it easier to hit faster. Defensively speaking, if you need more than 16 inches of barrel, then an AR-15 is the wrong tool for the job. For less than 30 feet, I'll second the suggestion of a shotgun instead.
 
Colonel Ingus said:
For defense you can pretty much go with any of the big names, I personally am partial to Bushmaster. Depending upon what distance you will be engaging targets, you might want to look into an M4 or Flat-top so you can use some kind of optic as your primary sighting system. It's makes it easier to hit faster. Defensively speaking, if you need more than 16 inches of barrel, then an AR-15 is the wrong tool for the job. For less than 30 feet, I'll second the suggestion of a shotgun instead.
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http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=21&t=388123

This is the one I was looking at... seems spot on with what you're suggesting :destroy:
 
Man there's been some bad shit happen around where I work in Little Rock, and it's put me on a firearm buying frenzy. Fucking entitlement mentality bitch ass ghetto trash lives across the street from the sleep lab where I work, shooting out windshields and murdering people and shit. Idont feel safe down there during the day or night.
 
I almost bought the Beowulf, But I really want a AR 50. So Ill wait and save.
 
I know the guys that own Rock River. I worked for both of them at Armalite in 1996. I have worked for Springfield Armory on and off for 18 years now.

Rock River Arms, without a doubt is the most intelligently managed and run firearms company I have seen. Chuck is a genius with finding the right materials and sub contractors, and Mark is one of the best gunsmiths I have seen. I watch two guys that are members of the American Pistolsmiths Guild work everyday so I know my shit.


dawg4life said:
look in to Rock River Firearms most of the guys I know have and swear by Rock River
Click to expand...
 
man you cant go wrong with any of em really only thing is if you buy a colt your just buying it for the name. personally I think they suck I carried a colt when I was an infantryman for the marine corps ohh rahh! rock river arms is great so is bushmaster. I own a bushmaster and they are accurate and very dependable, more so than colts. also if your weapon is for home defense therse really no reason for an optic sight. just thing about it. your in a tight quarters do you think you really have time to look down and get a sight allinment through and optic hell no! the iron sights are just fine like i said if your in a tight spot all you gotta do is point in the general direction. what i would recommend instead is a tactial flashlight one you could mount on your weapon (streamlights brand are awesome). reason being is that if someone breaks in your house more than likely its gonna be at night. TRUST ME a light makes more sense than some stupid optic. oh yeah remember this the AR 15 is powerfull be aware that it can easliy go through walls and end up hitting a loved one so watch your fire and it takes time to learn the weapon system to become compitant with it no matter who u are, and you have to keep it clean otherwise it'll jam and all you'll have is an $$$ paperweight. sorry for the shitty spelling.
 
I've got a Colt AR-15 HBAR made in the 80's that I like.
If I was to buy a new one it'd most likely be a DPMS.
I have a Kel-Tec PLR 16 (never fired) that uses the AR15/M16 clips. I like that concept - A pistol that fires rifle ammo while using plentifull HiCap clips.
 
I've heard from some cop that the parts wear down rather quickly on a DPMS but I really dont know for myself, shit though they look solid to me I like DPMS .308
yeah I like that concept too !
 
I though a AR-15 was just made by Colt. A Bushmaster isn't a AR-15. I really don't understand the question. You could say it like this, "what is better a bushmaster or AR-15?" I shot a Barrett not long ago, it's a sniper rifle. I think they're in the $6,000 dollar range, but this gun can fire smooth. Almost no recoil. I'll get a pic. Stoner also makes an excellent sniper. I like the AR-?, the little handgun that shoots same shells and has same magazines. Better get ready ya'll, the gun ban is coming..........
 
im not keen on using an ar-15 as home defense. the 60gr bullets dont penatrate much. you need something like a 12ga slug or ak-47 to shot through multiple walls and kill the target.

i used to thing the mossberg 12ga defender was good until i realized the az-47 would be more effective because you hold 30 rounds, and are semi-auto with more aiming control.. pistol grip shotgun is hard to aim and each shot you have to pump it than aim again.. ak you just let it rip...and if you ever seen the penetration reports you'll see the shotgun slug is the best but the ak is good enough for home use plus the addintional advantagfes noted up top.
 
BigboyAl said:
12ga slug or ak-47 to shot through multiple walls and kill the target.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what you SHOULDN'T want! If you live in town or have others living in your house the odds of collateral damage is high.
 
Advantage of shotgun is to use bird shot and a marine shotgun that holds ten rounds. You spray (just a term) and you cover way more space. Do you realize that an ak-47 round will go through walls? What about neighbors. Thats more danger than one could afford. Bird shot in marine shotgun. Or a slower shot from a gun, you know, like a 357. Those are designed more for rip apart than distance. AK-47 is distance man...... i like desert eagle but would never shoot in a house. You know, be practical about it.

Walli


BigboyAl said:
im not keen on using an ar-15 as home defense. the 60gr bullets dont penatrate much. you need something like a 12ga slug or ak-47 to shot through multiple walls and kill the target.

i used to thing the mossberg 12ga defender was good until i realized the az-47 would be more effective because you hold 30 rounds, and are semi-auto with more aiming control.. pistol grip shotgun is hard to aim and each shot you have to pump it than aim again.. ak you just let it rip...and if you ever seen the penetration reports you'll see the shotgun slug is the best but the ak is good enough for home use plus the addintional advantagfes noted up top.
Click to expand...
:)
 
you guys are wrong, a bird shot wont even kill a man, it wont stop them if your in a gun fight. i seen the reports..ill find link later and show you.. you want wall penatrationg you want to shot the guy behind a wall if need be..dont worry about neibghors..gun wont go through the entire home..

buck shot = waste and you defenitly dont want that, it wont stop a man in his tracks..

slug = yes, but hard to aim and only 6-8 rounds..

ak = even better, more shtos and better aiming..
 
LOL!!!

Won't go through what? My sis had a 9mm slug come through the front wall, through a coat closet(with coats), out the back of the closet, across the dinning area, lodged in the wall of the kids bedroom. And all this, AFTER it had been fired through the front door by a pissed off neighbor!

I hope you are willing to risk everything you have on your decision. And #3 or #4 buckshot will indeed stop a human. I'd actually prefer it to #00 or #000, but all in all shooting through walls is a bad idea. I wonder about peeps like you.
 
Last edited:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

read, learn then get back me with some karma after my recommendation saves your ass... :)

*He does note #00 or #000 will stop a human and is recommended but nothing less..


HERES THE QUOTE AT THE END:

Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.

When To Use Birdshot
A friend of AR15.com sends this:

"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'"
 
Interesting. I have no idea who this guy is but some of his data actually supports what I was saying. His test shows pellets with enough energy to go through three interior walls, and if you have anyone else in your house you want to consider penetration of things other than the bad guy.
I have tested mostly rifles and pistols. And even down to .22 LR and can tell you for a fact that slugs penetrate far more than most people would believe.
If I have to shoot a gun inside my house, a lot has already gone wrong. I want to shoot something that will penetrate into a human 10 to 12" as that is about all thats needed to poke holes in the vitals. More than that I feel I could be endangering family members. It's a personal choice.
As for educating myself, I have some knowledge and experience, and although your comment sounds a bit insulting, I also know most "knowledge" is nothing more than regurgitated drivel that supports someone point of view. That said, here is a url to a site that has test data from the military. http://www.frfrogspad.com/shotgun.htm
I think if you look at this you'll see they were talking about shots at distances well beyond the distance of shooting inside any house I've ever been in. The test for penetration at 7 yards is most realistic.
I won't ever shoot through a wall at what sounds like a bad guy! It could just as easily be one of my boys.

One more thing, I've served in combat and can tell you that survivability doesn't always depend on what you get shot with.
 
dont take it the wrong way, i wasnt trying to insult anyone. i couldnt tell if some comments were based on assumption or physical evidence.

thanks for your link. you should check out the rest of that website, there are some great reviews of ammo and other calibers going head to head.
 
BigboyAl said:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

read, learn then get back me with some karma after my recommendation saves your ass... :)

*He does note #00 or #000 will stop a human and is recommended but nothing less..


HERES THE QUOTE AT THE END:

Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.

When To Use Birdshot
A friend of AR15.com sends this:

"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'"
Click to expand...

After all the effort in testing and documenting the testing for the buckshot and slug loads, it's interesting that he offers only anectdotal evidence for the use of birdshot. No specifics, and even the mention of it's use when being stopped by the paper of the third board does not reference the distance from the muzzle on that "test".
I see that he shows the pictures of where the shot cup penetrated the drywall in his buckshot pictures. Also interesting to note that he points out that the pattern is very tight at typical room-to-room distances. Wouldn't it seem logical that an ounce and an eigth (typical target load) of 9, 8, or 7½ shot would remain partially in the shot cup at that distance (12 feet listed for the buckshjot testing) and result in a terminal effect similar to what Glasser Safety Slugs do? Even if only half of the shot stays in the wad, we're talking about a mass of over 220 grains. I believe that at the 7 yard distance often quoted in self defence situations that a birdshot load would spread, and therefore wouldn't penetrate more than a few layers of drywall, but if he's claiming that it won't do it at 12 feet then were is the data?
 
Colonel Ingus said:
After all the effort in testing and documenting the testing for the buckshot and slug loads, it's interesting that he offers only anectdotal evidence for the use of birdshot. No specifics, and even the mention of it's use when being stopped by the paper of the third board does not reference the distance from the muzzle on that "test".
I see that he shows the pictures of where the shot cup penetrated the drywall in his buckshot pictures. Also interesting to note that he points out that the pattern is very tight at typical room-to-room distances. Wouldn't it seem logical that an ounce and an eigth (typical target load) of 9, 8, or 7½ shot would remain partially in the shot cup at that distance (12 feet listed for the buckshjot testing) and result in a terminal effect similar to what Glasser Safety Slugs do? Even if only half of the shot stays in the wad, we're talking about a mass of over 220 grains. I believe that at the 7 yard distance often quoted in self defence situations that a birdshot load would spread, and therefore wouldn't penetrate more than a few layers of drywall, but if he's claiming that it won't do it at 12 feet then were is the data?
Click to expand...

i dont think you can count the sum of all the pellets hitting a target even if's its only 3" diameter. the indivual weight of a pellet is what helps give it ft/lbs of energy, which is what helps penatration.
he never shows acuatl dadta on the bird shots, i guess we can assume that since the #4 & #1 shots showed fairly weak results that the birdshot was that much worst only braking 2 boards. the guy takes email request, maybe somoene should send him one showing the birdshot results.
 
BigboyAl said:
i dont think you can count the sum of all the pellets hitting a target even if's its only 3" diameter. the indivual weight of a pellet is what helps give it ft/lbs of energy, which is what helps penatration.
Click to expand...


I agree. Any pellets that stray from the shot cup are not going to penetrate much at all. But those that do stay together will have the benefit of their combined mass for their initial penetration. Now how deep that goes before they all head in different directions is the big question. Before slugs were apporved for hunting deer where I live, some of the old timers used to say that dripping candle wax in to the shot on a buckshot load would help keep the pattern together longer. Now they use buffer material to do that.

Here's another point for those that mention energy delivered when discussing penetration. If a 9mm, or a .223, (or whatever) has a certian amount of energy as it enters a target (bad guy), and that round completely penetrates that target, then it has NOT transferred all of that energy to that target. The round continues on with a portion of it's energy remaining. Now take another projectile that penetrates a target and REMAINS IN THE TARGET. In that case the projectile has transferred ALL of it's energy to the target. Of course this is why hollow-points were designed, and what hollow-points are designed to do. We're talking about Terminal Ballistics.....not terminal like as in death, but as in the end of that projectile's flight path. Lots and lots of variables involved with that too, and many other factors FAR OUTWEIGH the importance using terminal ballistics as the sole basis for a decision concerning self defense.
 
AR-15 for self defense? hmmmm...well, would want either a handgun (assuming you have a permit to carry concealed firearm) or a shotgun for home envasion type defense. But, anyways, go with a colt or bushmaster, if you really want something NICE and big...and expensive...go with none other than my personal favirote (second favirote) Desert Eagle .50 Cal. Isreali Arms handgun, expect high recoil. I would try to lean away from the assualt rifle deal.
 
Hey dude, imho an AR is way overkill in the house. Others are right on a shoty is your best choice, but that's left up to the .45 in my house because I have the most trainning on it. If you really want an AR I would have to recomend the bushy. I've put close to 50k rounds through mine without a single issue. Just replace the barrel as it wears out.
 
Without CQB training your choice of arms is by far more critical to your success. You need something you can shoot well under stress / duress.
Schools like Thunder Ranch, or Gunsite would be my first recommendation.
 
I joined the forum to set some stuff straight in the post by someone asking why silencers were illegal, and noticed that it was 3 years old. So I'll just hold off on that post.

Anyway, looks like a neat forum, I'm looking to gain some muscle for this summer anyway, so I'll stick around.

As for the AR15 for home defense. I really suggest against using a .223 for home defense. .223 is a high velocity round, and will penetrate your walls, floors. Why risk it.

If you want an AR15 for home defense, go with a pistol caliber, such as 9mm. You can get frangible ammunition, which will more than likely disintegrate when striking a hard surface. Also, in close situations you don't really want to have a 16" barrel sticking
out there. A 9mm shooting through a 10" barrel will reach full velocity, and be relatively quiet, verses a .223 shooting through a 10" barrel, it still packs a punch, but you will go deaf from shooting it without protection. In fact, the muzzle blast produced from it would probably scare any intruder away by itself.

Most people prefer a shotgun or a pistol. For you it will be whatever you feel more comfortable with. Good luck. Read up.
 
I have an Armalite AR-180 Costa Mesa; semi-auto only, of course. Got it after the Clinton ban expired. Had to pay a plenty for it due to supply & demand. Clean serial number and NO PAPERS!!! I had an Uzi back in the 80s before the ban went in the first time. Wish I had kept it, but didn't want to register it and didn't want to get caught with it illegally either. Why do I need it? Because .223 Remington is the ONLY AMMO that WALMART STILL HAS IN STOCK! (And no, it's not kept in California.)

Charles
 
to answer the OPs question, I would definately say Colt. I have one and it is much better quality than other brands, More expensive, but the best one
 
metalfujimi said:
to answer the OPs question, I would definately say Colt. I have one and it is much better quality than other brands, More expensive, but the best one
Click to expand...

BullShit!

I have one built on a Stag lower, one Rock River Arms, and have messed with several Colts. If you taped over the names you'd not be able to tell the apart. Superior was making the Colt Lowers & Uppers for them. I don't know if they still are but you can buy from Superior directly. Money goes farther if you don't buy based on name alone.
 
BNG said:
BullShit!

I have one built on a Stag lower, one Rock River Arms, and have messed with several Colts. If you taped over the names you'd not be able to tell the apart. Superior was making the Colt Lowers & Uppers for them. I don't know if they still are but you can buy from Superior directly. Money goes farther if you don't buy based on name alone.
Click to expand...
the quality is not immediate, but in how long it will last. Colt is the original and still makes the version that will have the best resale value.
 
metalfujimi said:
resale
Click to expand...

Blasphemy! No one in their right mind would consider selling something like a treasured family heirloom. :D

When it comes to a working firearm, I have yet to see one wear out completely. In any brand. There are some piece that will need to be replaced, but even those, few people put enough downrange to see the failure.
 
BNG said:
Blasphemy! No one in their right mind would consider selling something like a treasured family heirloom. :D

When it comes to a working firearm, I have yet to see one wear out completely. In any brand. There are some piece that will need to be replaced, but even those, few people put enough downrange to see the failure.
Click to expand...
colts will not wear out as quickly as other brands. Lasts longer until you have to start replacing parts
 
I don't care for the AR platform myself, I"ll take a loose sk/ak over an AR anyday... if you want something nice for competitions, yeah AR's are alright, if you want something for when the SHTF that isn't going to be temperamental then I'd not mess with AR's.
 
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