When should you wear a weight belt?

[Ehiems]

Weight training is supposed to strenghten tissues of the body (bones, muscles and connective tissues).
Should you only wear supportive back devices when the weight is heavy and reps low? Or does one base wearing one on the type of excercise they're doing...or both? Heres what I do - what do guys think.
Barbell Squats = Only if I do 2-3 reps.
Bench press = Never!
Barbel curls = Always
Militay presses = Always
Lat Exercises = Always
Dumbell Excercises = ?

 

[gymtime]

Weight belts should be worn on heavy compound movements only. For example, a 4-6 rep set of squats or deads. They are useless on any other excercise, unless you have a pre-existing back problem.

 

[coolcolj]

I never wear them, they're a crutch

 

[Thaibox]

...when you have two crushed discs like my sorry ass sucks

 

[danielson]

i originally was under the impression that yopu dont wear a weight belt during squats as you wanted your lower back muscles to develop with your squat....but presumably a level of weight comes along where u need a belt

so what weight would you class as heavy enough for a belt during squats

people at my gym always freak out when i squat without a belt, saying i shouldnt even look at that weight unless i have one. ive never had a priblem with the weight i use, and no-one at my gym squats very much anyways.......but should i be wearing one just 'in case'?



i dont for BB curls as a try my hardest to to have any movement in my lower back from swining, should i be wearing one then as well?

should i be wearing one for any compund movement that mght involve my back?

 

[Ehiems]

Thaibox - were the crushed discs a result of not wearing a belt during weightlifting?

 

[bignate73]

when your transverse abdominis, multifidus, obliques, spinal erectors, lats, glutes and rectus abdominis all fall off...

thats when.

training au natural has worked for quite a few successful athletes, powerlifters and otherwise.

 

[HighIntensity]

i dont care what you fellas say I wear a belt whenever training and love it, and by the way my lower back is well defined.

 

[the People's Champ]

how are those tree trunks HI?

 

[Hannibal]

I only use my belt for Fridays Dynamic (speed) Squats. And I wear it a notch or so loose...so that I can practice pushing my ab out against it to support my lower back.

Use the belt as a teaching aid...not a crutch.

 

[b fold the truth]

Hmmm...let me think. I did events today and the ONLY time I wore mine was when I did the log clean and press. I wear it loose and use the front as a shelf to help with the clean.

When I train...it is exactly that...training. I want to strengthen every single muscle on my body.

When do you wear a belt? When you compete.

B True

 

[FitnessFrk]

when you are suba diving !

 

[coolcolj]

When you wear a belt you can defienitly lift a bit more.

The thing is, if you wear a belt right from the start you rely on it.
If you start without and build up your strength up over a period of time without it, you never do need it. No matter how heavy, as you body has strengthen itself to the weights you use.

Like they say Rome wasn't built in one day, slow and easy does it. I find its the guys who hurry to add on weight to bar etc are the ones that usually wear a belt at my gym so far I've noticed.

 

[bignate73]

a belt teaches a faulty recruitment pattern for abdominal stabilization. the natural instinct we are born with is actually to draw in the umbilicus to segmentally stabilize the spine, by pushing out, yes you are creating intra abdominal pressure (against an apparatus) and creating gross stability for your spine BUT also creating a weakness functionally for the body to SEGMENTALLY support itself by deep postural stabilizers. knowing the relationship between the inner unit and outer unit, commonly referred to as the core would shed some light on the subject. core is often misused by powerlifters by just referring to abs and lower back or even midsection. the true definition of the core is a bit more intricate of a relationship between deep postural stabilizers and the outer unit.

 

[Welsh power house]

Guys, i have to admit, i have always worn a belt for deadlifts, squats and power cleans....reading this thread has made me realize that i should really loose it, but will i injure my self because my body has become dependant on it?
squats wil be my greatest challenge without a belt.

Advice?
bignate, you know this inside out what you think?

I am currently doing squats, leg presses, cleans, clean & presses, high pulls......i would have thought to use a belt....should i?

 

[FitnessFrk]

drop the weight on your working sets by 50% and start over. it's the only way to develop the weaks spot that you have created.

 

[aurelius]

drop the weight on your working sets by 50% and start over. it's the only way to develop the weaks spot that you have created.

I didn´t go that far back, but I did have to put the ego on the shelf when I got smart about weight belts.

I only use it when going 90% or heavier on squats. Never on deadlifts or anything else.(except on first dates)

 

[Blkout]

Damn near every pro bodybuilder wears a belt. It doesn't make you a man not to wear one, it just makes back injuries more succeptible. Wear a belt on squats and deadlifts if your doing any kind of serious weight.

 

[b fold the truth]

It doesn't make you a man not to wear one, it just makes back injuries more succeptible.

Really? How so?

B True

 

[bignate73]

Damn near every pro bodybuilder wears a belt.

It doesn't make you a man not to wear one, it just makes back injuries more succeptible.

Wear a belt on squats and deadlifts if your doing any kind of serious weight.

ah, the appeal to authority fallacy. pro bb'ers arent the epitome of form, technique, biomechanics or even good common sense in most training cases.

yes it does "not make you a man", how many men or people are born with weight belts on?

define serious weight. when do you draw the line and why? cause it feels heavy? because you cant control it properly withouth a belt? i think then you have your answer as to what to do....and it doesnt consist of strapping on a belt. time to exercise the ego and those arms and peel off some weight so you dont injure yourself.

retraining one's self to lift without a belt is the same as with straps and everything, you take a step back and then move forward again. learning proper core stabilization is the key.

 

[FitnessFrk]

a majority of pro bbers may wear belts, the point is ?...do you know how many olympic lifters train with out them and have broken records with out them ? a lot...

 

[Blkout]

ah, the appeal to authority fallacy. pro bb'ers arent the epitome of form, technique, biomechanics or even good common sense in most training cases.

yes it does "not make you a man", how many men or people are born with weight belts on?

define serious weight. when do you draw the line and why? cause it feels heavy? because you cant control it properly withouth a belt? i think then you have your answer as to what to do....and it doesnt consist of strapping on a belt. time to exercise the ego and those arms and peel off some weight so you dont injure yourself.

retraining one's self to lift without a belt is the same as with straps and everything, you take a step back and then move forward again. learning proper core stabilization is the key.

Oh yea, that's right, I forgot how many top pro's we have here on this board. I forgot how many of you actually know more than they do, silly me!!!

And just for the record, straps and belts have a place. Straps are very useful for when you cannot train a large muscle like back without forearm fatigue. And before you say that means you should train forearms harder, I think you should know that not everyone is going to have the grip strength of Samson. Some people will always have better genetics when it comes to grip or any other muscle being built. Only a fool can say that no one should use straps. Its a blanket statement when there are people out there who's grip strength will NEVER match their back strength.

As for belts, the belts helps to stabilize the spine by compressing your abdominal wall inwards. Thus keeping it from pushing forward. I would expect you hardcore pro's to know about this.

I have a read a ton of BS on this board over the last few months, and I am amazed at how many people we have here that are damn near know-it-all's. Weight training is a subjective matter, what works for one person is not always going to be the same for another since we were not all built the same.

The only people I've ever seen not use a belt when doing heavy deads or squats were people who either put their ego first, were not doing very much weight to start with, or too fat to use a belt.



B-fold, you just got finished saying that you use one too, why would use one if you didn't think it helps? Please explain..........

 

[b fold the truth]

I wear mine when I compete...I train to compete...and on competition day...I wear my belt. I wear my belt on the log press from time to time in a loose fashion and I make a shelf out of the front of it to help with the clean of the log...if a competition allows it.

Wearing a belt does make a difference in your strength on a lift...but when I train...I want to train everything. I will train weakness as much as possible. If my grip is my weak point...I train my grip very hard. Most people's abs are their weak point...so I feel the need to train my abs. I am constantly moving with the weight that I am using in a contest...so my abs and entire core must be very strong.

I do agree with you that a belt will make you stronger...but in training...it is exactly just that...training.

Note, and this may be the difference here, that I am a strength athlete. My thoughts may not apply to anyone else.

B True

 

[HighIntensity]

Oh yea, that's right, I forgot how many top pro's we have here on this board. I forgot how many of you actually know more than they do, silly me!!!

And just for the record, straps and belts have a place. Straps are very useful for when you cannot train a large muscle like back without forearm fatigue. And before you say that means you should train forearms harder, I think you should know that not everyone is going to have the grip strength of Samson. Some people will always have better genetics when it comes to grip or any other muscle being built. Only a fool can say that no one should use straps. Its a blanket statement when there are people out there who's grip strength will NEVER match their back strength.

As for belts, the belts helps to stabilize the spine by compressing your abdominal wall inwards. Thus keeping it from pushing forward. I would expect you hardcore pro's to know about this.

I have a read a ton of BS on this board over the last few months, and I am amazed at how many people we have here that are damn near know-it-all's. Weight training is a subjective matter, what works for one person is not always going to be the same for another since we were not all built the same.

The only people I've ever seen not use a belt when doing heavy deads or squats were people who either put their ego first, were not doing very much weight to start with, or too fat to use a belt.



B-fold, you just got finished saying that you use one too, why would use one if you didn't think it helps? Please explain..........

amen

 

[bignate73]

Oh yea, that's right, I forgot how many top pro's we have here on this board. I forgot how many of you actually know more than they do, silly me!!!

And just for the record, straps and belts have a place. Straps are very useful for when you cannot train a large muscle like back without forearm fatigue. And before you say that means you should train forearms harder, I think you should know that not everyone is going to have the grip strength of Samson. Some people will always have better genetics when it comes to grip or any other muscle being built. Only a fool can say that no one should use straps. Its a blanket statement when there are people out there who's grip strength will NEVER match their back strength.

As for belts, the belts helps to stabilize the spine by compressing your abdominal wall inwards. Thus keeping it from pushing forward. I would expect you hardcore pro's to know about this.

I have a read a ton of BS on this board over the last few months, and I am amazed at how many people we have here that are damn near know-it-all's. Weight training is a subjective matter, what works for one person is not always going to be the same for another since we were not all built the same.

The only people I've ever seen not use a belt when doing heavy deads or squats were people who either put their ego first, were not doing very much weight to start with, or too fat to use a belt.

forearm fatigue before back gives out, and why is there such a disparity? because someone used straps to create the strength disparity or their body hasnt grown to catch up with the ego. the human body has this amazing capability to adapt based on the demands imposed on it, dont let "genetics" be a scapegoat for an overexcited ego. patience sometimes will allow bodyparts to strengthen together instead of creating a further deficit by using straps to reinforce a weak grip. dont be a victim of genetics if you cant hang on, just keep trying. if you train for cosmetics, which most on here do, then by all means use straps and your grip can continue to be weaker than your prime mover's capacity. if the back can contract against it then the biceps can pull it and so on and so forth down the chain. take something out of the chain and its not functional, but to each his own.

as for what a belt does, YES YOU ARE RIGHT, it does compress the abdomen. BUT, if you are using it as most do, chances are the abdominal muscles are either pressing out or being forced out, which does nothing but build a reverse recruitment pattern for deep postural stabilization. ie, you learn how to move wrong. this sets the stage for becoming another victim of poor stabilization when the device is removed. the lifter doesnt learn to properly stabilize via deep postural musculature and thus has to rely on gross stability ( pressure from the weight belt) instead of segmental stability (pressure created by a corset effect from the transverse abdominis, and compressive forces of the multifidus) which is done by actually DRAWING IN, not pressing out. hence reverse recruitment. the outer unit takes over and basically negates any deep stabilization and tells the inner unit to relax. a bit of study on postural stabilization or core stability might help clarify this.

so if you are done spouting off some muscle and fiction factoids or tidbits out of Arnold's Encyclopedia, maybe a bit of insight into actual performance enhancement training and prehabilitation would be in order.

"were not doing very much weight to start with"

relative to whom, what reference point or whose opinion? is there a magical number where a belt is mandatory or is that the point where form becomes sloppy and thus needs reinforcement because the lifter cant hold his body from buckling under his own muscle control?

the logic escapes me.

 

[bignate73]

now we'll wait for the grip victims to chime in......

 

[b fold the truth]

So...to try and understand you better...do you mean that you need to tighten your abs and pull them in when you are squatting and deadlifting? I am not for sure what you are meaning. Can you give it to me in the "simple" form?

B True

 

[bignate73]

if you think about your belly button, drawing it in to the spine (obviously it wont go that far) essentially you will have activated the transverse abdominis and multifidus. couple that with the breath that you are taking prior to your repetition and you have intra abdominal pressure as is needed. this works well with the vasalva maneuver because you are creating pressure through the breath thats held, the abdominal cavity is smaller due to drawing in (which serves to press the internal organs into the anterior portion of the spine, stabilizing it from the front.) the transverse abdominis (tva) is connected to the spine via the thoracolumbar fascia so when it contracts by drawing in, it creates whats called hoop tension or a corset effect. the internal pressure and the smaller abdomen creates the same effect as that of the tightened belt and the pressing out of the abs against a belt.

i can get you more reading if you would like....

 

[b fold the truth]

Yeah, I would love to read more. Can you also explain why Louie Simmons as well as every other powerlifter that I know believe that you should push outwards with your belly when you lift...to protect your spine?

Why is it that I am stronger when I push my belly outwards when I squat? It is the same when I deadlift and do my events too. Pushing my belly out is one of the main things I feel that helps me on a heavy set...as do most strength athletes.

B True

 

[coolcolj]

I don't even think about it, I just do the exercise or movement.
Its all automatic to me.

 

[needsize]

have a read a ton of BS on this board over the last few months, and I am amazed at how many people we have here that are damn near know-it-all's. Weight training is a subjective matter, what works for one person is not always going to be the same for another since we were not all built the same.

The only people I've ever seen not use a belt when doing heavy deads or squats were people who either put their ego first, were not doing very much weight to start with, or too fat to use a belt.

That last quote is funny as hell, you talk about everyone on here generalizing and lumping everyone together, and then you go and say something like that. I'd like to know where I fit in then, I'm not a powerlifter, I just do deads for back thickness, but can still deadlift 3x my bodyweight, so I would say I'm not using a small amount of weight. I never go above 10% bodyfay, so I know I'm not fat. So where exactly do I fit into your generalizations?

 

[Lumberg]

Guys, pay attention to the marines on here. They know what they are talking about. A few months ago I asked what brand of weight belt was the best and most people were like "your gym shorts." They directed me to a FASCINATING three-part article on testosterone.net about your core stabilizing mechanism and it blew me away. I will never use a belt again unless I am either injured or maxing out on either the squat or the deadlift. As far as military presses and curls, WTF?

JC

P.S. for the article on testosterone.net search for "How to be back strong and beltless."

 

[bignate73]

Guys, pay attention to the marines on here. They know what they are talking about. A few months ago I asked what brand of weight belt was the best and most people were like "your gym shorts." They directed me to a FASCINATING three-part article on testosterone.net about your core stabilizing mechanism and it blew me away. I will never use a belt again unless I am either injured or maxing out on either the squat or the deadlift. As far as military presses and curls, WTF?

JC

P.S. for the article on testosterone.net search for "How to be back strong and beltless."

exactly, thats the article i would refer to people. very comprehensive and will answer bfold's question perfectly.

bfold, pay attention to the words gross stability and segmental stability. they are the difference between what you are talking about and what i am talking about.

http://www.chekinstitute.com/articles.cfm?select=16
http://www.chekinstitute.com/articles.cfm?select=17

and this one on abs in or out.
http://www.chekinstitute.com/articles.cfm?select=24

hope that clarifies my position a bit more. i practice this with my clients who come to me with back pain and it works wonders just to teach them postural control and functional stability. just imagine what the athlete can do with it.

 

[Blkout]

I wear mine when I compete...I train to compete...and on competition day...I wear my belt. I wear my belt on the log press from time to time in a loose fashion and I make a shelf out of the front of it to help with the clean of the log...if a competition allows it.

Wearing a belt does make a difference in your strength on a lift...but when I train...I want to train everything. I will train weakness as much as possible. If my grip is my weak point...I train my grip very hard. Most people's abs are their weak point...so I feel the need to train my abs. I am constantly moving with the weight that I am using in a contest...so my abs and entire core must be very strong.

I do agree with you that a belt will make you stronger...but in training...it is exactly just that...training.

Note, and this may be the difference here, that I am a strength athlete. My thoughts may not apply to anyone else.

B True

Ok, I see your point, now let me add one more to it and see what you think again.

OK, say your abs and lower back are weak. I understand by your theory that you would want to bring those points up to match the rest of your body. I have no problem with that. But lets say that your abs and lower back are preventing you from squatting or deadlifting a weight that challenges your legs or back. Does this mean you should not wear a belt and hope that the lagging muscle catch up, or wear a belt, challenge your legs or back and then work on some extra excercises to on another day to bring up those lagging points?


My point is that while we would all love to have proportional strength in all muscles, this is just not the case most of the time. so since this is often the case, why not just use a belt or straps for lifting on those excercises that are needed and then work the weaker muscles seperately another day until they catch up, if they ever catch up.

 

[Hannibal]

Yeah, I would love to read more. Can you also explain why Louie Simmons as well as every other powerlifter that I know believe that you should push outwards with your belly when you lift...to protect your spine?

Why is it that I am stronger when I push my belly outwards when I squat? It is the same when I deadlift and do my events too. Pushing my belly out is one of the main things I feel that helps me on a heavy set...as do most strength athletes.

B True

ELEMENTARY MY DEAR WATSON....my "guess" would be that the people that Nate trains are NOT strength athletes. "How to be back strong and beltless"...is great unless you plan to compete in an event which allows the use of belts...then you better no how to use one.

I AGREE with what Nate says...if the people I worked with were "people into fitness" or "bodybuiders". Someone even posted to do what Marines do....Marines would never wear a weightbelt in combat...so they should not train with one. But strength athletes have to know how to use their belt. If you have a half a ton across your back, and you plan to take it for a ride...I hope you are pushing your belly out.

 

[Hannibal]

Does this mean you should not wear a belt and hope that the lagging muscle catch up, or wear a belt, challenge your legs or back and then work on some extra excercises to on another day to bring up those lagging points?

Thats EXACTLY what it means. If you notice that your lower back and ab strength is out of propotion to the rest of your body...then you have found your "weakness". You need to make it strong. And if you just strap on a belt...then even though you are doing extra work for your lagging parts...they will never catch up to the rest...because you are strengthening then through the use of the belt.

I ditched the belt for everything but Speed Squats on Friday. And initially all my Max Effort movements went down...but after a couple of weeks or two...with some extra core work...my poundages were back up. So when I put the belt on in competition I am that much stronger.

 

[Lumberg]

ELEMENTARY MY DEAR WATSON....my "guess" would be that the people that Nate trains are NOT strength athletes. "How to be back strong and beltless"...is great unless you plan to compete in an event which allows the use of belts...then you better no how to use one.

I AGREE with what Nate says...if the people I worked with were "people into fitness" or "bodybuiders". Someone even posted to do what Marines do....Marines would never wear a weightbelt in combat...so they should not train with one. But strength athletes have to know how to use their belt. If you have a half a ton across your back, and you plan to take it for a ride...I hope you are pushing your belly out.

I was the one who said listen to the marines and I specifically meant listen to what Big Nate says. I do not know if his statements are endorsed by the USMC as a whole and I did not mean to imply that. I meant pay attention to him as a person because he knows his shit.

JC

 

[Lumberg]

Personally I see use of a belt as similar to use of a suit or shirt in powerlifting. You should get as strong as possible without it, then in the weeks leading up to a contest start working the gear into your routine so that you are used to it and know your limits.

If you are not maxing out you do not need a belt. Period. It will cause bad recruitment patters of the muscles in your gut.

As far as the other person who asked if they should lower their weights and work on their supporting muscles on other days, yes. The articles even have a training program for strenghtening the TVA that you could follow.

And as a person who has considered using straps but recently DLed a new PR without straps, my advice is to stop being a pussy and just do it!

Just for the record using lots of chalk helps too.

JC

 

[Night Fly]

I haven't used a weight belt for any exercise in a long time. I have really been focusing on strengthening my lower back, though, so I don't have much of a problem. I would suggest (probably like everyone else in this thread, but I just hit "reply" before reading) that you do your workouts without a belt...unless you are going for a really heavy one rep max....or for a contest.

 

[Hannibal]

I was the one who said listen to the marines and I specifically meant listen to what Big Nate says. I do not know if his statements are endorsed by the USMC as a whole and I did not mean to imply that. I meant pay attention to him as a person because he knows his shit.

JC

I know man...I was agreeing with you. My point was train for what you compete at. Marines "competition" is combat. And they would never use a weightbelt in combat...so they shouldnt use one in training.

 

[Blkout]

now we'll wait for the grip victims to chime in......

I get a strong feeling that maybe your grip is better than average so you've never had this problem or maybe its that you've never moved enough weight to need straps. If so, good for you.

I'm not one to blow workout after workout waiting for my grip to MAYBE catch up to the strength of my traps and back. If you choose to do so hoping your grip will eventually catch up so be it. I can have a strong grip without it hampering my back and trap workouts. My grip gets worked on every other excercise, but I am not going to let it hold my back and traps from growing just so that I can be proportionally strong in all muscles. Unfortunately you seem to have a hard time understanding where genetics come in. While I agree that you can improve any muscle in your body, there is almost always a muscle or two that grows better than the rest in your body and often a muscle or two that grows slower than the rest. Why is this? Genetics. And because of this is the same reason why straps and belts have their place.

If you can squat 600lbs without a belt or deadlift 700lbs without a belt, I think that's wonderful, consider yourself blessed with great genetics in those areas, but the average user is going to be stronger in the back, traps, and legs than their grip or back will ever tolerate after working out for a few years. I guess I could take it a step further and say, why risk injuring your forearms or lower back just so that you can say you lift without those aids? To me its not worth it, injuries are setbacks and not something I am fond of. I leave my ego outside when I come into the gym.

I am into getting the absolute maximum work out of the muscle I am training that day, yes I realize that other stabilizing muscles will be involved but I am not into hammering those muscles just for the sake of balance. I can always spend extra time working those muscles on a seperate day to bring them up without wasting my bigger workouts waiting for the smaller muscles to play catch up?

Can you see what I am saying here? I am not arguing with anyone, just providing a different view that some of you don't seem to see. maybe we all just have different goals which is why I don't try to tell any of you how you should work out. Training is subjective so you have to be careful in giving advice to someone because as I said before, what works for you may not be good for someone else.

 

[Arioch]

Someone should dig in the Supertraining list archives for discussions of Chek's idea that the transverse abdominus can be selectively recruited in this manner. He was torn to shreds, by many posters, and he withdrew from the discussion. This has been an established pattern. His idea of heavy weight, and a relevant counterpoint went something like:

Chek: "I know what it is like to work with really strong athletes. I have help train a man who can squat 600."

Dave Tate: "At our gym, that's an above average bench."

Note: The above is paraphrased.

Several other people challenged him to support his statements, and he could not. Including Chad Riley and Eric Burkheart (S$C coach - Irvine).

The fact is that wearing a belt allows a lifter to generate more force due to the heightened stability of increased IAP. (studies available upon request - tomorrow).

 

[bignate73]

LOL, i gotta get my avatar changed.

now im gonna get an email from the Commandant of the Marine Corps....hmmm...maybe there is another job opportunity there. going back in as fitness advisor to the Commandant

back to business.

ok, with some of the things bfold said, i will concede. IF, your competition allows it, why not add a bit more stability to your lift. IF, everyone commenting to "use the belt" had read the articles i posted, they would know that the abs will travel out upon maximum lifts, but they will do so under eccentric control of the TVA and NOT by being "pushed out deliberately". (those lost, read the article) but this isnt to say that training to maintain TVA control shouldnt be paramount. on competition day, the use of a belt WITH full TVA activation will allow for now increased spinal stability and intra abdominal pressure, thereby increasing your core stability. full on pushing out of the abs is relying on the belt and generally means less abdominal control. strength athlete or no, its a functional stabilization pattern that gets reversed with sedentary people, uninformed athletes and powerlifters. we unlearn it basically. as a child, it is still instinct.

so to cap it up. if you want to use said belt to help on competition day, fine. but dont neglect the other X amount of times you do your lifts to actually strengthen yourself functionally and protect your spine.

as for the argument of strengthening the weak part and continuing to use supports or straps. think about it this way, do you get better at shot putting by doing shoulder presses or practicing the movement. work the movement as a whole to increase the capabilities of all the muscles in the complex. want to get better at squats, squat. want to be able to hang on doing pullups, then hang on. that doesnt mean that other exercises wont hasten your progress but the specific movment itself is the best training to progress.

 

[Blkout]

Thats EXACTLY what it means. If you notice that your lower back and ab strength is out of propotion to the rest of your body...then you have found your "weakness". You need to make it strong. And if you just strap on a belt...then even though you are doing extra work for your lagging parts...they will never catch up to the rest...because you are strengthening then through the use of the belt.

I ditched the belt for everything but Speed Squats on Friday. And initially all my Max Effort movements went down...but after a couple of weeks or two...with some extra core work...my poundages were back up. So when I put the belt on in competition I am that much stronger.

You seem to be missing the point that maybe everyone's back and abs aren't going to be strong enough to support large lifts. I again will say that genetics play a role here. If your legs grow at an insane rate but your back and abs are slow growers, then why should anyone sacrifice their leg workouts until their abs and back TRY to catch up. Its like saying that your only as strong as your weakest link, well in bodybuilding this is can be overcome by working around sometimes. While I agree that optimally we would hope that all our muscles are proportionally as strong as the others, this is not often the case. I am not encouraging anyone to never worry about weak points, but I am saying that its sutpid to hold back another body part while smaller less genetically gifted muscles play catch up.

Again, I fail to see where many of you don't understand this. maybe as I said before, we are just training for two different things, as a bodybuilder, I am into making the targeted muscle grow, not achieveing proportional strength. Strength is nice, but some muscles are just going to be stronger than others. Genetics play a role here.

 

[Lumberg]

Someone should dig in the Supertraining list archives for discussions of Chek's idea that the transverse abdominus can be selectively recruited in this manner. He was torn to shreds, by many posters, and he withdrew from the discussion. This has been an established pattern. His idea of heavy weight, and a relevant counterpoint went something like:

Chek: "I know what it is like to work with really strong athletes. I have help train a man who can squat 600."

Dave Tate: "At our gym, that's an above average bench."

Note: The above is paraphrased.

Several other people challenged him to support his statements, and he could not. Including Chad Riley and Eric Burkheart (S$C coach - Irvine).

The fact is that wearing a belt allows a lifter to generate more force due to the heightened stability of increased IAP. (studies available upon request - tomorrow).

I don't know if I will ever squat, much less bench, 600 lbs and I don't care. Chek is not talking about competitive powerlifters so much as weightlifting enthusiasts and bodybuilders.

However as nate said even for them is is a good idea to learn the proper recruitment pattern for the TVA and augment the stability with a belt if they so choose.

JC

 

[b fold the truth]

The guy who cuts the grass at work wears his powerlifting belt when he cuts the grass...lol...I love it. He also wears his gloves too...

B True

 

[bignate73]

He was torn to shreds, by many posters, and he withdrew from the discussion.

Several other people challenged him to support his statements, and he could not. Including Chad Riley and Eric Burkheart (S$C coach - Irvine).

The fact is that wearing a belt allows a lifter to generate more force due to the heightened stability of increased IAP. (studies available upon request - tomorrow).

one voice against many cant be heard. i would withdraw too. old habits die hard.

supporting his statements or that of core stability. he need not, there is plenty of information out there for people to seek out.

i have read many of supertraining's discussions, and they seem to border on perpetuation of old beliefs. or disseminating information that can be had by simple research. its not an elite list of people, though there are some that are. siff does have some big names on his board but there are some genuine knuckleheads as well. i would gather that a bulk of them were the ones you speak of who challenged chek's statement.

as for IAP, yes belts do that. noone is arguing that. but the body is capable of producing a great amount of pressure on its own as well but simple muscle control. much of the pressure produced by pushing the abs out is elastic tension of the stretched transverse abdominis, rectus abdominis, and obliques. simple pressure theory, make the box SMALLER and the air or contents inside push harder against the walls, make the box bigger and you have to fill it with more to get the same pressure. the belt facilitates making the box smaller, the TVA activated IS the wall of the box. you make the choice.

 

[Blkout]

LOL, i gotta get my avatar changed.

now im gonna get an email from the Commandant of the Marine Corps....hmmm...maybe there is another job opportunity there. going back in as fitness advisor to the Commandant

back to business.

ok, with some of the things bfold said, i will concede. IF, your competition allows it, why not add a bit more stability to your lift. IF, everyone commenting to "use the belt" had read the articles i posted, they would know that the abs will travel out upon maximum lifts, but they will do so under eccentric control of the TVA and NOT by being "pushed out deliberately". (those lost, read the article) but this isnt to say that training to maintain TVA control shouldnt be paramount. on competition day, the use of a belt WITH full TVA activation will allow for now increased spinal stability and intra abdominal pressure, thereby increasing your core stability. full on pushing out of the abs is relying on the belt and generally means less abdominal control. strength athlete or no, its a functional stabilization pattern that gets reversed with sedentary people, uninformed athletes and powerlifters. we unlearn it basically. as a child, it is still instinct.

so to cap it up. if you want to use said belt to help on competition day, fine. but dont neglect the other X amount of times you do your lifts to actually strengthen yourself functionally and protect your spine.

as for the argument of strengthening the weak part and continuing to use supports or straps. think about it this way, do you get better at shot putting by doing shoulder presses or practicing the movement. work the movement as a whole to increase the capabilities of all the muscles in the complex. want to get better at squats, squat. want to be able to hang on doing pullups, then hang on. that doesnt mean that other exercises wont hasten your progress but the specific movment itself is the best training to progress.

Nate to a certain extent I do agree on creating bad habits, ok fine. But saying that a belt is useless or a crutch is blanket statement. It has a place. No it should not be used in place of bad form, I agree.

As for the last paragraph, while I do agree that doing the movment itself would always be better, keep in mind that you cannot do ANY back movements without using your forearms, therefore, your weakest link is always going to be your forearms since your back will more than likely grow at a faster rate. Why hold up my back potential waiting for my forearms to catch up? Its ludicrous. If we were in the fortunate of position of being able to target ONLY the muscle being trained it would be wonderful but this is not the case, there will always be stabilizing muscles involved. More times than not those stabilizing muscles are not going to grow as fast as the larger muscles. Heavy compund movements expose these weaknesses the best. Do not hold back a larger muscle until a smaller one catches up, instead do extra work for the smaller muscle and with hope and hard work, it should catch up. Straps and belts are a good thing when used properly.

 

[b fold the truth]

I stand up, tighten my belt and make sure that I am properly chalked. I spread my feet out wide and make sure to spread the floor with my chucks. My knee wraps are so tight that I can barely sit down....

I get focused...take in a big breath of air...head up, back arched, and I sit back back back back back....till I hit the toilet.

I love my gear.

B True

 

[bignate73]

let me just say that i see where alot of people are coming from, their thinking is etc.

everyone will have a goal, be it cosmetic, strength, power, functionality, health, fitness etc. its up to the person to make the tradeoff to get what he/she wants. if someone wants to train beyond what one bodypart can handle in order to develop another, its their choice. just so long as they understand the steps they took or didnt take to get there. its like looking into someone else's yard and saying, im going to get into that yard. now you can either hop the fence or go through it. (i'm bullheaded enough to go through it, but i dont use straps.)

interesting discussions by all though. kudos!

 

[bignate73]

I stand up, tighten my belt and make sure that I am properly chalked. I spread my feet out wide and make sure to spread the floor with my chucks. My knee wraps are so tight that I can barely sit down....

I get focused...take in a big breath of air...head up, back arched, and I sit back back back back back....till I hit the toilet.

I love my gear.

B True

i stand up, undo my belt, drop my pants, look down, breathe in, draw in, sit back, vasalva maneuver, <BEDOOP!> right into the toilet.

"where did it go?"

must be my strong core.

 

[Blkout]

The guy who cuts the grass at work wears his powerlifting belt when he cuts the grass...lol...I love it. He also wears his gloves too...

B True

OK, now that was funny.

 

[b fold the truth]

It is discussions like this where I actually do sit back and learn things. It is also the type of discussion where I get upset and say things that I don't really mean. I hope that this never happens and I don't offend anyone badly.

I think with any discussion, especially one which we want to "win", we use extreme cases as examples.

I train without a belt because my back and abdominal region must be accustomed to very high loads throughout a contest. When it counts...I will wear a belt.

Example: I went to St. Louis to train with a group of strongmen up there. We did the overhead log press, heavy atlas stones, then the partial deadlift. My back was fried before I even got to the deadlift (from the 420lb atlas stone no doubt...). It was still training for me though...so I did not use straps or a belt.

I did all of my sets with no belt or straps...till Willie pulled 835. I tried 835 totally raw and could not budge it. I then put on my belt (loosely) and pulled it. Still no straps. It was a mini-contest...and training.

It is important to train most all the time without a belt, especially as you get older. I feel this way because the back and abdominal region are very important for daily functions...and you probably will not be wearing a belt when you bend down to pick up the groceries or your grandchildren.

If you reach a set where your abdominal region or your grip will NOT hold the weight...the use of straps or a belt might be a good idea...but not on all sets.

I still train for events which require lots of grip work, so I make every exercise a grip event. I feel that in order to strengthen your grip, a few sets of wrist curls or gripper exercises, is not gonna do it. The grip is strengthened from work over long periods of time...in my opinion. I am only as strong as my weakest link...so I try to eliminate them.

Just a few more thoughts to throw around..

B True

 

[aurelius]

I did all of my sets with no belt or straps...till Willie pulled 835. I tried 835 totally raw and could not budge it. I then put on my belt (loosely) and pulled it. Still no straps. It was a mini-contest...and training.

Could have been mental.

 

[b fold the truth]

Could have been mental.

Yep, could have been. It could have been that my core was my weakest link and the use of the belt strengthened it enought to make the lift. I also did overhead presses and atlas stone work that day.

I think I'm good for mid 9's to 1,000 with a belt and straps.

B True

 

[Lumberg]

Dude b real that's awesome. Wouldn't that be a world record?

I know that mid-to-high 800s is enough to win the event in WSM qualifiers.

JC

 

[b fold the truth]

Dude b real that's awesome. Wouldn't that be a world record?

I know that mid-to-high 800s is enough to win the event in WSM qualifiers.

JC

World record is held by...shoot...can't think of his name. From California...ahhhhhhh. 1062 or something like that...really close to 1,100.

B True

 

[b fold the truth]

Ken Brown, 1062