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coolcolj
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It all depends on the depth you catch it as well - muscle clean (catch with minimal leg bend) , power (1/4 squat), squat clean near parallel or lower.
Oly lifts depends on speed strength, not everyone has the same ability at this, although the powerclean is less so than the power snatch.
here are some ratios from CT
Team sport athletes
f) power clean / hang clean
Average: 1.0 - 1.25
Strong: 1.3 - 1.5
Very strong: 1.6 +
g) snatch
Average: 0.7 - 0.9
Strong: 1.0 - 1.2
Very strong: 1.3 +
Strength athletes:
f) power clean / hang clean
Average: 1.2 - 1.4
Strong: 1.5 - 1.8
Very strong: 1.9 +
g) snatch
Average: 1.0 - 1.2
Strong: 1.3 - 1.4
Very strong: 1.5 +
Bodybuilders
f) power clean / hang clean
Average: 0.8 - 1.1
Strong: 1.2 - 1.3
Very strong: 1.4 +
g) snatch
Average: 0.6 - 0.8
Strong: 0.9 - 1.1
Very strong: 1.2 +
-----
some words from CT - no correlation between oly lifts and squats
I asked this question to him, and got a great thread out of it
Christian Thibaudeau
03/08/03
07:42 PM
Canada
There is actually little correlation between what you can squat and what you can snatch (especially power snatch). I'll give you several examples:
1. Last summer I trained with a world championship lifter and I was actually able to outsquat him (550lbs to 505lbs) however his power snatch was much higher than mine (330lbs to 280lbs).
2. I've trained with a guy (94kg class) who could barely do 3 reps with 315lbs in the squat, yet could snatch 275lbs and power clean 315lbs!
3. I have also trained with a lifter (77kg) who could only squat 330lbs but could snatch 235lbs and clean & jerk 300lbs.
4. I had two hockey players, one who back squatted 375lbs for 2 reps but only did 205lbs on the power clean (despite good technique and a lot of speed) and another one who squatted less (352lbs x 1) but who power cleaned 300lbs.
5. I trained with a few powerlifters who could deadlift over 700lbs (one was close to 800lbs) and squatt over 680lbs but who could only power clean 275lbs (and they did practice the lifts, it was not and odd lift fro them).
6. I started training for competition again last monday. I must say that I had neglected my legs during my "body transformation" phase. But after only two olympic lifting session (after a 4 months break) I snatched 5kg less than my all-time best, jerked 5kg MORE than my all-time best and cleaned 10kg less than my all-time best. In the mean time my back squat regressed by over 75lbs and my front squat by close to 50lbs. AND I am now 30lbs lighter than when I did set my olympic lifting PBs. So in my case, leg strength is not well correlated with results in the classic lifts.
There was a time when I would think that the more I increased my squat, the more I would clean and snatch. That just wasn't the case AT ALL!
7. I own several Ironmind training hall tapes and very often the strongest squatters are not the strongest lifters when it comes to the olympic lifts.
Using proportions to know what you *should* be able to do is absolutely worthless at best and probably even counterproductive.
Christian Thibaudeau
03/08/03
08:30 PM
Canada
Cool, a relative beginner with low starting strength levels in the squat will increase his olympic lifting a lot by gaining leg strength. However at some point, gaining more brute strength will no yield the same level of improvement and eventually even large strength gains will not lead to improvement in your olympic lifts.
Zatsiorsky talks about this in his book "Science and Practice of Strength Training". Basically saying that when you lack strength, improving it will yiled great power gains. But if you already have sufficient brute strength, adding even more won't add much power.
At some point in your lifting career you might found that gaining 25lbs on your squat will lead to gains of 25lbs on your snatch or clean. At other times even a 50lbs increase in your squat won't bring you an improvement in your clean or snatch. At other times your squat may stay stable or even regress while you gain more strength in your clean or snatch.
When I first started olympic lifting I could full squat 405lbs, clean 250lbs and snatch 175lbs. Increasing my squat to 485lbs improved my snatch to 253lbs and my clean to 319lbs, a combined gain of 147lbs.
When I increased my squat to 575lbs I increased my snatch to 291lbs and my clean to 352lbs (I did clean 374lbs from the hang though) for a relatively similar gain in squatting strength I only improved my total by 71lbs, half the gains as with my previous squat improvement. So even in one individual the ratio between the squat and clean/snatch will vary during his career.
Oly lifts depends on speed strength, not everyone has the same ability at this, although the powerclean is less so than the power snatch.
here are some ratios from CT
Team sport athletes
f) power clean / hang clean
Average: 1.0 - 1.25
Strong: 1.3 - 1.5
Very strong: 1.6 +
g) snatch
Average: 0.7 - 0.9
Strong: 1.0 - 1.2
Very strong: 1.3 +
Strength athletes:
f) power clean / hang clean
Average: 1.2 - 1.4
Strong: 1.5 - 1.8
Very strong: 1.9 +
g) snatch
Average: 1.0 - 1.2
Strong: 1.3 - 1.4
Very strong: 1.5 +
Bodybuilders
f) power clean / hang clean
Average: 0.8 - 1.1
Strong: 1.2 - 1.3
Very strong: 1.4 +
g) snatch
Average: 0.6 - 0.8
Strong: 0.9 - 1.1
Very strong: 1.2 +
-----
some words from CT - no correlation between oly lifts and squats
I asked this question to him, and got a great thread out of it
Christian Thibaudeau
03/08/03
07:42 PM
Canada
There is actually little correlation between what you can squat and what you can snatch (especially power snatch). I'll give you several examples:
1. Last summer I trained with a world championship lifter and I was actually able to outsquat him (550lbs to 505lbs) however his power snatch was much higher than mine (330lbs to 280lbs).
2. I've trained with a guy (94kg class) who could barely do 3 reps with 315lbs in the squat, yet could snatch 275lbs and power clean 315lbs!
3. I have also trained with a lifter (77kg) who could only squat 330lbs but could snatch 235lbs and clean & jerk 300lbs.
4. I had two hockey players, one who back squatted 375lbs for 2 reps but only did 205lbs on the power clean (despite good technique and a lot of speed) and another one who squatted less (352lbs x 1) but who power cleaned 300lbs.
5. I trained with a few powerlifters who could deadlift over 700lbs (one was close to 800lbs) and squatt over 680lbs but who could only power clean 275lbs (and they did practice the lifts, it was not and odd lift fro them).
6. I started training for competition again last monday. I must say that I had neglected my legs during my "body transformation" phase. But after only two olympic lifting session (after a 4 months break) I snatched 5kg less than my all-time best, jerked 5kg MORE than my all-time best and cleaned 10kg less than my all-time best. In the mean time my back squat regressed by over 75lbs and my front squat by close to 50lbs. AND I am now 30lbs lighter than when I did set my olympic lifting PBs. So in my case, leg strength is not well correlated with results in the classic lifts.
There was a time when I would think that the more I increased my squat, the more I would clean and snatch. That just wasn't the case AT ALL!
7. I own several Ironmind training hall tapes and very often the strongest squatters are not the strongest lifters when it comes to the olympic lifts.
Using proportions to know what you *should* be able to do is absolutely worthless at best and probably even counterproductive.
Christian Thibaudeau
03/08/03
08:30 PM
Canada
Cool, a relative beginner with low starting strength levels in the squat will increase his olympic lifting a lot by gaining leg strength. However at some point, gaining more brute strength will no yield the same level of improvement and eventually even large strength gains will not lead to improvement in your olympic lifts.
Zatsiorsky talks about this in his book "Science and Practice of Strength Training". Basically saying that when you lack strength, improving it will yiled great power gains. But if you already have sufficient brute strength, adding even more won't add much power.
At some point in your lifting career you might found that gaining 25lbs on your squat will lead to gains of 25lbs on your snatch or clean. At other times even a 50lbs increase in your squat won't bring you an improvement in your clean or snatch. At other times your squat may stay stable or even regress while you gain more strength in your clean or snatch.
When I first started olympic lifting I could full squat 405lbs, clean 250lbs and snatch 175lbs. Increasing my squat to 485lbs improved my snatch to 253lbs and my clean to 319lbs, a combined gain of 147lbs.
When I increased my squat to 575lbs I increased my snatch to 291lbs and my clean to 352lbs (I did clean 374lbs from the hang though) for a relatively similar gain in squatting strength I only improved my total by 71lbs, half the gains as with my previous squat improvement. So even in one individual the ratio between the squat and clean/snatch will vary during his career.
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