What is "freedom"?

[Lao Tzu]

On a side note- I for one have more respect for the person who tries to outrun the cops when being chased for a speeding violation instead of merely pulling over like society's beaten dog.

Same here. The government and authroity figures need to fear the public as much as the public fears them. If not, then they have no incentive to treat us decently. Cops in America used to torture civilians routinely until a few decades ago. They didn't stop/slow down out of the goodness of their hearts, they stopped because the public organized and started fucking up their lives and careers if they did.

Most people just let authority figures and social conformity walk all over them. Read Stanley Milgram's book, it is really sad what social sheep we all are.

 

[gjohnson5]

State sponsored violence is very dangerous. The problem with allowing the police to go unchecked is that a cop who hates blacks or a cop who hates jews will pull you over and treat you harshly wheather you did something or not. It is the job of the state to defend it's police officers with whatever means at thier disposal, so allowing them to torture or become vigilantees would mean complete chaos

Same here. The government and authroity figures need to fear the public as much as the public fears them. If not, then they have no incentive to treat us decently. Cops in America used to torture civilians routinely until a few decades ago. They didn't stop/slow down out of the goodness of their hearts, they stopped because the public organized and started fucking up their lives and careers if they did.

Most people just let authority figures and social conformity walk all over them. Read Stanley Milgram's book, it is really sad what social sheep we all are.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

very good....that it is.
"Free your mind, and the rest will follow"..

-Envogue.

 

[Lao Tzu]

State sponsored violence is very dangerous. The problem with allowing the police to go unchecked is that a cop who hates blacks or a cop who hates jews will pull you over and treat you harshly wheather you did something or not. It is the job of the state to defend it's police officers with whatever means at thier disposal, so allowing them to torture or become vigilantees would mean complete chaos

I believe humans are basically good, but also basically sheepish. I was at a talk last week about human rights in Myanmar and the Burmese speakers didn't have any anger against the military. They said it was '500-1000 bureaucrats who ran the government' who they were mad at. And it is true, all it takes is a few hundred people in control of a government to damage millions of lives.

Once Joseph Stalin died the purges in the USSR stopped. Prison population dropped by 70%. And people still love the guy, even though his single handed leadership ruined so many lives.

Remove the few hundred Nazi officials in charge of germany 70 years ago and history would've been totally different. Remove Joseph Stalin and the USSR changes dramatically.

I have heard that the reason we are sheep is evolutionary, so fighting it may be futile. The social organization where everyone submits has an advantage over the one wehre there is constant rebellion and revolt and infighting. But still, being prone to being sheep combined with a few bad sheep in the lead can really ruin our lives.

I think 180 million people died in the 20th century from governments. Of those, about 130 million were in the USSR, China & Germany. many of the deaths in the USSR & China were directly due to the leadership of Mao & Stalin. Once these guys stepped down the deaths stopped. The deaths in germany were due to a few hundred nazi officials. So there you have it, a handful of people directly kill over 100 million people and the public just go along with it. Mao & Stalin are now two of the biggest heroes on earth.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

I believe humans are basically good, but also basically sheepish. I was at a talk last week about human rights in Myanmar and the Burmese speakers didn't have any anger against the military. They said it was '500-1000 bureaucrats who ran the government' who they were mad at. And it is true, all it takes is a few hundred people in control of a government to damage millions of lives.

Once Joseph Stalin died the purges in the USSR stopped. Prison population dropped by 70%. And people still love the guy, even though his single handed leadership ruined so many lives.

Remove the few hundred Nazi officials in charge of germany 70 years ago and history would've been totally different. Remove Joseph Stalin and the USSR changes dramatically.

I have heard that the reason we are sheep is evolutionary, so fighting it may be futile. The social organization where everyone submits has an advantage over the one wehre there is constant rebellion and revolt and infighting. But still, being prone to being sheep combined with a few bad sheep in the lead can really ruin our lives.

I think 180 million people died in the 20th century from governments. Of those, about 130 million were in the USSR, China & Germany. many of the deaths in the USSR & China were directly due to the leadership of Mao & Stalin. Once these guys stepped down the deaths stopped. The deaths in germany were due to a few hundred nazi officials. So there you have it, a handful of people directly kill over 100 million people and the public just go along with it. Mao & Stalin are now two of the biggest heroes on earth.

Is it merely coincidence that they were both communists? I wonder if Hitler were instead a communist, maybe he'd have also been a hero. There probably wouldn't have been a Holocaust, so that would've certainly helped his bid.

 

[Lao Tzu]

Is it merely coincidence that they were both communists? I wonder if Hitler were instead a communist, maybe he'd have also been a hero. There probably wouldn't have been a Holocaust, so that would've certainly helped his bid.

Hitler isn't a hero because he lost ww2. Had he won I'm sure he'd be considered a hero. Mao & stalin are heroes because they had so much power that they could control the information people had access to, and nobody had access to anything that made them look bad.

Christianity & Islam are only considered to be true because its followers were better at forcibly converting people a thousand years ago. Had some other religion been better at military conquest that faith would be the one true faith.

 

[H_T_]

this thread keeps me thinking about Animal Mother (Adam Baldwin) from Full Metal Jacket....

 

[test boy ii]

Hitler isn't a hero because he lost ww2. Had he won I'm sure he'd be considered a hero. Mao & stalin are heroes because they had so much power that they could control the information people had access to, and nobody had access to anything that made them look bad.

Christianity & Islam are only considered to be true because its followers were better at forcibly converting people a thousand years ago. Had some other religion been better at military conquest that faith would be the one true faith.

Interesting.

Has there been a successful society without religion?

Modern Europe is not very religious. They are doing OK as far as I know.

Stalin tried to purge religion I believe. Russia has not benefitted from that.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Hitler isn't a hero because he lost ww2. Had he won I'm sure he'd be considered a hero. Mao & stalin are heroes because they had so much power that they could control the information people had access to, and nobody had access to anything that made them look bad.

Christianity & Islam are only considered to be true because its followers were better at forcibly converting people a thousand years ago. Had some other religion been better at military conquest that faith would be the one true faith.

Good points.
Also if he was a communist there likely wouldn't have been a WW2. His stance against it sealed his fate. We can only speculate if national socialism would've eventually become as wide-spread as communism was.

 

[Subzeero]

It's a state of mind.

strongly disagree. Freedom is no mind!