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Went to a Funeral Yesterday - Some thoughts

Lestat

Lestat

MVP
EF VIP
So first off, this is not meant to be an attack on religion. I am sure it will come off that way, but I'm just trying to explain/digest/discuss thoughts and feelings here.

So this was my 6th funeral. They are never fun, but a part of the human experience I suppose right?

This one was Catholic. I had been to a Catholic wedding (luckily I have been to far more weddings than funerals so far in my life). They are heavy on ceremony. Lots of singing, standing, praying. The whole gig.

Towards the end, they had about 15 minutes for Eulogies. My friend gave one (it was his father that had passed away this week after battling prostate cancer for 5 years). His sister. His Aunt. These were all great. Very personal. Something happy, something sad, something to remember.

But the other 75% of the ceremony was praising god. They even mentioned the pope's name in the thing! They talked about how this life is tough and full of struggles but its just a momentary stepping stone to something greater, eternity with Jesus. They said our father had gone and prepared a place for us by his side. They said that this guy that died, had faith, and that was what was most important. Faith first, then family, but we are all family in Christ. They did stuff with holy water. They had incense. They did communion (I am not Catholic so I did not participate). I enjoy watching the rituals.

So what seemed strange or weird to me was that this whole thing was basically a way to celebrate god and faith, and less of a time to reflect on this wonderful and unique human being that is no longer with us. His body had stopped being able to support his brain by keeping it fresh with oxygen and now his consciousness is no longer here. Where is he, who knows, will we see him again? Probably not. (Can't say for certain no, but from what we know, its highly unlikely.) Yet many people up there talked directly to his casket and mentioned that they would be seeing him again.



This is sort of an attack, but this church was amazing. On a hill with a 180 degree view that the pulpit stood right in the center of. Breathtaking.

So this place pays no taxes on its property or income. Not exactly sure why we give that benefit, but I was wondering, how come the Tarrot card reader that I passed on the way home doesn't get to write off all of her income and pay no taxes? Should income someone gets from putting out books on how to read a horoscope be tax free as well?

Anyway, there's your Lestat anti religion thread for the weekend.
 
I respect your opinion, as I've gotten older - my faith has significantly increased, although I have always been a thoughtful and considerate person.

I have been to over 100 funerals easily, by the time I was 18, three of my closest friends were killed, since then I have lost many friends thru natural and violent death. With regards to family, I lost my father when he was 43 (I was 11), I had over 25 aunts and uncles (1/2 are gone now). Laugh at me, however I try to remember them daily in my prayer when I reflect and truly believe I will meet them again someday.

Not sure how else to explain it.
 
take religion in our life for what it is, interperet it how you want, but i hope you arnt trying to prove a point with these threads.

if you are so secure and happy in your perception of the world then why seek approval from EFers? unless you are trying to "prove them wrong" or make them feel stupid for believing...in which case you're an asshole.

you have enough in life and seem to have enough fun and fullfillment to enjoy life without having to interfere with what lets other people get through theirs.

if all that religion shit wasnt a comfort to them, then they wouldnt do it. but that doesnt stop you from having your ashes spread at sea or whatever you wanna do

but i still think youre conflicted on what to believe and WANT us to prove you wrong and show you the path to god
 
I hated going to mass when I was a kid. All of that stand, sit, kneel shit has to be to keep you awake. Eh, whatever.
 
I think my point here is this.

With everyone talking about how this life is just a test, or full of sin and struggles, and the best is yet to come, it seems to demean this existence.

What is wrong with enjoy this life for what it is? Experience it, embrace it, love it. I live my life like there will not be another one, I want this one to be the best it possibly can. Will there ever be another consciousness that is identical to me? No. I'd love to have an eternal life somewhere, but for now I'll enjoy what I do have.
 
i think lestat is making this thread for provoking thought. nothing wrong with that. he explains his perception of the event/funeral. he was there in support of his friend who had just lost his father so obviously he is not mocking but rather asking for others' thoughts (even though Im sure he knows who will respond and how they will respond).

IMO let people worship as they choose. whatever helps them feel better and get through the grieving process.

funny story about church: when i was growing up, we used to attend church every sunday and we even went to midnight mass on christmas eve. well once when i was about 7, i fell asleep at midnight mass and i peed my pants and all over the pew. lmao.
 
SublimeZM said:
i always loved the stories they told
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Yeah. I really only went when I was visiting my grandparents, so I have good memories of being with my Nana.

For a guy that's so content with everything it seems Lestat goes out of his way to try and make people unhappy.
 
jnevin said:
I hated going to mass when I was a kid. All of that stand, sit, kneel shit has to be to keep you awake. Eh, whatever.
Click to expand...
I was an altar boy just so I had some shit to do
 
I don't like funerals, seems like a celebration of death to me. I'd rather remember them when they were alive. Let Spart put them in a hole and be done with it.
 
Hi Lestat,

I really like you and think you would be great to sit down and visit with IRL. Some of my best friends in life are ones who do not share my religious of politcal beliefs.

Anywhoo...Us Christians take great comfort in our faith and rituals. I have also been to Catholic funerals and although I am protestant and don't understand a lot of thier rituals, I respect them. We don't do insence and holy water but rather songs, videos of their life put to music, "gift of words", singing, and a word of encouragement from the pastor.

The people at the Christain funerals seem much more peaceful than the people at a "Celebration of Life" non-Christian memorial service that I attended. Oh man, give me a faith-filled, God Praising, hopfull service anytime over a hysterical, crying, "this is the end of the world" sad "celebrationof life" service of people who do not believe in God.

The grieving families so take comfort in the fact that because the DO believe, they will see thier loved one someday again. It seems silly to you I know, but to us it gives the ability to be happy and move on.

Now, re: the Tarot lady -vs- the Church's taxes. She is in it to make money and the church is registered as a non-profit, charitable organization. They feed the poor, cloth the needy and are amazing organizations for enriching the communities in which they operate. The tarot lady uses her profits as any other small business owner does and is also able to reap tax benefits of being a small business owner.


I very rarely even click on one of these threads about religion because I know what I believe and don't get into debates.
 
Good thread and great thoughts. Lestat, I agree with many of your religious views. I'd much rather celebrate the person's life and remember them instead of preaching all that "he's in a better place" with God and Jesus and whatever. I still enjoy the ritual of wake followed by funeral. When my grandfather died it was disturbing to watch my grandmother go through this entire process. Some people might need to hear the religious aspect of death for peace of mind. I don't. I accept it on different terms.

Last year when our priest was preaching his stuff with my grandfather lifeless in the casket behind him, I couldn't help but feel a little angry. I resented this man for thinking he deserved to speak at my grandfather's wake. Did you know him personally? No. Did you know how he lived his life and what he sacrificed and what he left behind? No. So shut up with your religious spew that will mean nothing in the long run. Nobody was listening to this standard reading you consider sacred or holy. I felt insulted.

This is exactly why I wrote my speech. After the priest was done I promptly stood and up recited my piece. It was the most heartfelt, moving, emotional thing I ever had to do. People laughed and cried. It served it's purpose.

I'm pretty sure my point enforces what Lestat is trying to say; we should cherish the person for exactly who they were and what they did in a positive light. Religion seems so impersonal, like it's scripted routine. I too live life as if it's the only one I will have. I place no security or promise in an afterlife. In the end, nobody gives a shit. Be you and have love in your heart.
 
I agree with swole and smurfy, let people believe whatever it is that helps them sleep at night, or get up every morning, but by saying "he's in a better place now" doesn't that imply that the place we are all in, or headed during our lifetimes is bad or undesirable?

curyvmomma - the idea of showing videos or playing the person's favorite music sounds like what I would want at my funeral. A celebration of the life that was mine.
 
Lestat said:
I agree with swole and smurfy, let people believe whatever it is that helps them sleep at night, or get up every morning, but by saying "he's in a better place now" doesn't that imply that the place we are all in, or headed during our lifetimes is bad or undesirable?

curyvmomma - the idea of showing videos or playing the person's favorite music sounds like what I would want at my funeral. A celebration of the life that was mine.
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One of the coolest funerals I went to had this. My friend, a 30 year old hottie in the prime of her life was struck down by cancer. She was married to a awesome guy who we all knew would have no problem getting another great wife.

At the end of a beautifully done multimedia presentation there was a short video clip of her at about 85 pounds, do-rag (no hair) but still looking as pretty as ever. Just frail as heck though. The camera closed in as she said a few parting words. She laughed with tears in her eyes and said, "I love you all! Take good care of Greg (her hubby). He's gonna need it!" We all laughed and cried too. The forsight involved with her family taking that video of her was immeasurable. It was nice to see her laugh and joke one more time. A great gift to us.

Yep, I want a high tech funeral too, lol.
 
PuddleMonkey said:
I don't like funerals, seems like a celebration of death to me. I'd rather remember them when they were alive. Let Spart put them in a hole and be done with it.
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no shit the funeral is very short and all ppl want to do is get to the food after....

bullshit
 
Lestat said:
I agree with swole and smurfy, let people believe whatever it is that helps them sleep at night, or get up every morning, but by saying "he's in a better place now" doesn't that imply that the place we are all in, or headed during our lifetimes is bad or undesirable?

curyvmomma - the idea of showing videos or playing the person's favorite music sounds like what I would want at my funeral. A celebration of the life that was mine.
Click to expand...

the funeral home had pictures of my grandfather with fam and stuff in a slideshow, it was really nice
 
curvymommy said:
mercy...one thing about you is that you are VERY predictable. That's something I do like. Lends to an air of security ~ always knowing what to expect.
Click to expand...
:friends:
 
curvymommy said:
mercy...one thing about you is that you are VERY predictable. That's something I do like. Lends to an air of security ~ always knowing what to expect.
Click to expand...

it's also boring
 
Maybe the praising god was their way to deal with the guilt or fear or depression? You know...go through the motions and all that to take away the depressing thoughts about their loss?
 
depends on the clergy
the best funeral I ever heard was a mormon funeral
the gist of it was that the problems between people in this world were rooted in selfishness
 
MightyMouse69 said:
I respect your opinion, as I've gotten older - my faith has significantly increased, although I have always been a thoughtful and considerate person.

I have been to over 100 funerals easily, by the time I was 18, three of my closest friends were killed, since then I have lost many friends thru natural and violent death. With regards to family, I lost my father when he was 43 (I was 11), I had over 25 aunts and uncles (1/2 are gone now). Laugh at me, however I try to remember them daily in my prayer when I reflect and truly believe I will meet them again someday.

Not sure how else to explain it.
Click to expand...
I love you.
 
Spartacus said:
depends on the clergy
the best funeral I ever heard was a mormon funeral
the gist of it was that the problems between people in this world were rooted in selfishness
Click to expand...
The Mormons are focused on the family unit in general. That includes into their belief in the afterlife.; You're a family on Earth and in the afterlife. They're a very close community in general.
 
I'm of the opinion every family needs an atheist member
the logical nuetral voice
 
I spoke at my father's funeral and I found the overly religious talk rather annoying because I feel it diminished his memory. It took the focus away from my father and the man he was. I was the only child to speak at the funeral, I'm the youngest of six, and I didn't mention God or Jesus once but my siblings felt I gave the best eulogy and captured who he was perfectly.


Lestat said:
So first off, this is not meant to be an attack on religion. I am sure it will come off that way, but I'm just trying to explain/digest/discuss thoughts and feelings here.

So this was my 6th funeral. They are never fun, but a part of the human experience I suppose right?

This one was Catholic. I had been to a Catholic wedding (luckily I have been to far more weddings than funerals so far in my life). They are heavy on ceremony. Lots of singing, standing, praying. The whole gig.

Towards the end, they had about 15 minutes for Eulogies. My friend gave one (it was his father that had passed away this week after battling prostate cancer for 5 years). His sister. His Aunt. These were all great. Very personal. Something happy, something sad, something to remember.

But the other 75% of the ceremony was praising god. They even mentioned the pope's name in the thing! They talked about how this life is tough and full of struggles but its just a momentary stepping stone to something greater, eternity with Jesus. They said our father had gone and prepared a place for us by his side. They said that this guy that died, had faith, and that was what was most important. Faith first, then family, but we are all family in Christ. They did stuff with holy water. They had incense. They did communion (I am not Catholic so I did not participate). I enjoy watching the rituals.

So what seemed strange or weird to me was that this whole thing was basically a way to celebrate god and faith, and less of a time to reflect on this wonderful and unique human being that is no longer with us. His body had stopped being able to support his brain by keeping it fresh with oxygen and now his consciousness is no longer here. Where is he, who knows, will we see him again? Probably not. (Can't say for certain no, but from what we know, its highly unlikely.) Yet many people up there talked directly to his casket and mentioned that they would be seeing him again.



This is sort of an attack, but this church was amazing. On a hill with a 180 degree view that the pulpit stood right in the center of. Breathtaking.

So this place pays no taxes on its property or income. Not exactly sure why we give that benefit, but I was wondering, how come the Tarrot card reader that I passed on the way home doesn't get to write off all of her income and pay no taxes? Should income someone gets from putting out books on how to read a horoscope be tax free as well?

Anyway, there's your Lestat anti religion thread for the weekend.
Click to expand...
 
the funeral is for the living
and when you sit down to "design" the funeral
you can have the clergy of your choice and you can brief him on what you want
the clergy is there for you
though as with any profession,some are selfish and will use the funeral op to preach

catholics have a specific funeral mass procedure and this is what you get if you have the funeral at the church
but you can also have a funeral for a catholic more according to your wishes at the funeral home chapel
and use the catholic priest
just discuss it with the priest and make your desires known
 
I'm sorry lestat the families funeral wishes weren't inline with what you wanted
don't go next time if they bug you
 
Spartacus said:
the funeral is for the living
and when you sit down to "design" the funeral
you can have the clergy of your choice and you can brief him on what you want
the clergy is there for you
though as with any profession,some are selfish and will use the funeral op to preach

catholics have a specific funeral mass procedure and this is what you get if you have the funeral at the church
but you can also have a funeral for a catholic more according to your wishes at the funeral home chapel
and use the catholic priest
just discuss it with the priest and make your desires known
Click to expand...
One of my good friends in high school is the son of the mortician that helped bury my father and works in the family business. He was a powerlifter back in the day and could carry a corpse on each shoulder. My family is very religious and I respect their beliefs but I thought it was poignant that my words were more valuable to them then than the "Jesus and afterlife" eulogies made; My father wasn't a religious man.
 
Spartacus said:
I'm sorry lestat the families funeral wishes weren't inline with what you wanted
don't go next time if they bug you
Click to expand...
Spartacus, you're one of my favorite EF peeps but you know that family wishes differ. My father's service was dictated by my mother, as it should have been since they were together for 34 years. I would have preferred a different service but I respect their relationship and my mother's wishes. I was lucky enough to give a voice to the man my father was....as a human being. There are people alive today that wouldn't be but for him and that was something I wanted to give a voice.
 
Lestat said:
I think my point here is this.

With everyone talking about how this life is just a test, or full of sin and struggles, and the best is yet to come, it seems to demean this existence.

What is wrong with enjoy this life for what it is? Experience it, embrace it, love it. I live my life like there will not be another one, I want this one to be the best it possibly can. Will there ever be another consciousness that is identical to me? No. I'd love to have an eternal life somewhere, but for now I'll enjoy what I do have.
Click to expand...

If our existence ends with death in this world, then what's the point? Seriously, if someone lives 80 years and dies, and their soul and everything disappears in 80 years then what matters? What if this whole world died and life as we knew it stopped? Why would any funeral matter?
Things that aren't eternal have no meaning, because they have a defined limit in an infinite universe. Even the life of Earth, the planet itself, is less than a sliver when compared to the limitless universe.

If a person dies, pretty soon everyone who remembers them will die too. If it weren't for books like the Bible we wouldnt even have a clue who was a important figure 6000 years ago. Archeology, Stories, History, and all that crap only tell us so much. And some books are long forgotten.
Eventually everything decays...

It's the things that don't decay that matter.
 
healother said:
If our existence ends with death in this world, then what's the point? Seriously, if someone lives 80 years and dies, and their soul and everything disappears in 80 years then what matters? What if this whole world died and life as we knew it stopped? Why would any funeral matter?
Things that aren't eternal have no meaning, because they have a defined limit in an infinite universe. Even the life of Earth, the planet itself, is less than a sliver when compared to the limitless universe.

If a person dies, pretty soon everyone who remembers them will die too. If it weren't for books like the Bible we wouldnt even have a clue who was a important figure 6000 years ago. Archeology, Stories, History, and all that crap only tell us so much. And some books are long forgotten.
Eventually everything decays...

It's the things that don't decay that matter.
Click to expand...
The point is living your life to the fullest.
 
healother said:
A life isn't full unless it has some eternal meaning in the grand scheme of things...
Click to expand...
Life is important because as far as we know you get one go at it and you better make the most of it.
 
Spartacus said:
I'm sorry lestat the families funeral wishes weren't inline with what you wanted
don't go next time if they bug you
Click to expand...

TITCR.


Lestat, hopefully before you die, you'll have told someone how you wish your funeral services to be carried out. When your funeral is carried out to your wishes, hopefully someone isn't bitching about it and nit-picking at bullshit details and where it was held and whether or not taxes were paid, etc.

Hopefully they just focus on you, and the person they knew you as.

Hopefully they understand the larger aspect of why they are there and they focus on that, regardless of whether they agree with the way things were done.

All the best to you bro.
 
javaguru said:
Spartacus, you're one of my favorite EF peeps but you know that family wishes differ. My father's service was dictated by my mother, as it should have been since they were together for 34 years. I would have preferred a different service but I respect their relationship and my mother's wishes. I was lucky enough to give a voice to the man my father was....as a human being. There are people alive today that wouldn't be but for him and that was something I wanted to give a voice.
Click to expand...
I know that,I just was just keeping the post simple.
Believe me we find ourselves in the middle of many heated family arguements
 
Judge a man by his actions fully. I've certainly made mistakes and have my faults, but I'd like to be remembered for being there for my friends and family when they needed me the most.. For the little things that noone sees (so that when people criticize you ) you and a select few others know the truth... The tears you've shed for the pain you see in others and the prayers you've said for them... The little acts of kindness that often do more good than you'll ever know.
 
healother said:
If our existence ends with death in this world, then what's the point? Seriously, if someone lives 80 years and dies, and their soul and everything disappears in 80 years then what matters? What if this whole world died and life as we knew it stopped? Why would any funeral matter?
Things that aren't eternal have no meaning, because they have a defined limit in an infinite universe. Even the life of Earth, the planet itself, is less than a sliver when compared to the limitless universe.

If a person dies, pretty soon everyone who remembers them will die too. If it weren't for books like the Bible we wouldnt even have a clue who was a important figure 6000 years ago. Archeology, Stories, History, and all that crap only tell us so much. And some books are long forgotten.
Eventually everything decays...

It's the things that don't decay that matter.
Click to expand...
nihilism
 
healother said:
A life isn't full unless it has some eternal meaning in the grand scheme of things...
Click to expand...


You mean like being good to everyone around you because it's the right thing and possibly leave a legacy because you're unselfish? Or doing it just to get into "heaven"? The latter seems like you'd be living a lie every day of your life, and by just about every religion's standards, a sin.
 
Lestat said:
This is sort of an attack, but this church was amazing. On a hill with a 180 degree view that the pulpit stood right in the center of. Breathtaking.

So this place pays no taxes on its property or income. Not exactly sure why we give that benefit, but I was wondering, how come the Tarrot card reader that I passed on the way home doesn't get to write off all of her income and pay no taxes? Should income someone gets from putting out books on how to read a horoscope be tax free as well?
.
Click to expand...


Is has since been sold for 35 Million (rumoured to pay lawsuits against pedophile priests) but there was a large 15 acres waterfront estate (21,000sq ft main house) to put up the nuns that were on a sabbatical. I have done two showhouses there in the past 5 years before it was sold and everyone (EVERYONE, even the God fearing) will tell you that the nuns are the nastiest vindictive bitches you will ever meet period. They were so spoiled (yes, spoiled like spoiled self centered children they behaved) that construction crews refused to return to the site.

The caretaker of the property (a friend of mine) can tell you stories about some of the things that these nuns would do that would vastly change anyone thoughts of those that claim to be an extension of God.
 
Good thread and great thoughts. Lestat, I agree with many of your religious views. I'd much rather celebrate the person's life and remember them instead of preaching all that "he's in a better place" with God and Jesus and whatever. I still enjoy the ritual of wake followed by funeral. When my grandfather died it was disturbing to watch my grandmother go through this entire process. Some people might need to hear the religious aspect of death for peace of mind. I don't. I accept it on different terms.

Last year when our priest was preaching his stuff with my grandfather lifeless in the casket behind him, I couldn't help but feel a little angry. I resented this man for thinking he deserved to speak at my grandfather's wake. Did you know him personally? No. Did you know how he lived his life and what he sacrificed and what he left behind? No. So shut up with your religious spew that will mean nothing in the long run. Nobody was listening to this standard reading you consider sacred or holy. I felt insulted.

This is exactly why I wrote my speech. After the priest was done I promptly stood and up recited my piece. It was the most heartfelt, moving, emotional thing I ever had to do. People laughed and cried. It served it's purpose.

I'm pretty sure my point enforces what Lestat is trying to say; we should cherish the person for exactly who they were and what they did in a positive light. Religion seems so impersonal, like it's scripted routine. I too live life as if it's the only one I will have. I place no security or promise in an afterlife. In the end, nobody gives a shit. Be you and have love in your heart.
Click to expand...


100% agree with you and lestat. At my funeral I want everone to blaze a phatty and to laugh and cry about who I was. I dont want some stranger(priest) to talk about god and all this crap, because its not who I am. I think funeral should be personalized. If the person who died was religious then by all means have it that way.
 
Times have changed and times are strange
Here I come, but I aint the same
Mama, Im coming home
Times gone by seem to be
You could have been a better friend to me
Mama, Im coming home


they played that Ozzy song at one funeral
I thought that was cool
 
javaguru said:
What about New Orleans and Katrina, seems like a dick move to me?
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If you argue that Katrina wouldn't have happened with a kind God, you got to bring it all in. What I mean is, how can God give you free will, but then make sure nothing bad ever happens, and everything is roses. Free will comes with a price.

Last time I was home, My Grand-dad died. Which sucked, but at least I was home. The funeral was ok. Had to have been the biggest concentration of mullets i've seen. The whole thing was pretty good. Little church out in the sticks. The preacher who had retired got up and talked about growing up around him and the family, told some stories about growing up around him, so it was pretty personal. He was 88 when he went, and he had 10 kids, so it was filled up. There was a lot of talk about church, but church was also a huge part of his life.

The only hiccup was that they didn't say my youngest uncles name when they called out all family, which pissed off all the other ones...since they probably didn't cause he was gay, and most were sure it was due to the (relatively) new wife's wishes. However, you go out to bury him, and there my uncle's grave sitting there (by my granny's). Just seemed dumb and needlessly petty.

It turned into sort of a family reunion. As far as religion goes into it, I can only speak from my experiences...but for them not to say anything about God, or read any versus or such would have been odd to everyone there, since religion had been a huge part of their life with him, and they were at the church most of them had been to through their childhood. It was part of being in the family.

If it wasn't a big part of the guy's life, or he didn't care about it much, I can understand why you would think it takes away from talking about his life and pushes it's own agenda. But if it was, or it is a part of his wife's, it's going to be talked about.
 
healother said:
If our existence ends with death in this world, then what's the point? Seriously, if someone lives 80 years and dies, and their soul and everything disappears in 80 years then what matters? What if this whole world died and life as we knew it stopped? Why would any funeral matter?
Things that aren't eternal have no meaning, because they have a defined limit in an infinite universe. Even the life of Earth, the planet itself, is less than a sliver when compared to the limitless universe.

If a person dies, pretty soon everyone who remembers them will die too. If it weren't for books like the Bible we wouldnt even have a clue who was a important figure 6000 years ago. Archeology, Stories, History, and all that crap only tell us so much. And some books are long forgotten.
Eventually everything decays...

It's the things that don't decay that matter.
Click to expand...
From what we know, more than 90% of all the species that have lived on earth are now extinct. What is the point?

If you can't find meaning in life without the false hope of an afterlife then I don't know what to tell you. If you didn't have faith in another life what would you do? Kill yourself? Kill others? Act rude?

I'll tell you what I do, because I'm doing it. I'd live everyday to the fullest, do my best to wake up and go to bed with a smile everyday and hopefully bring a little joy to someone else's life in the process.

I do understand the need for some people's to think they have another existence ahead. I can see why it would be depressing to think of this blink of an eye we have for a life and ask, what's the point? But its up to each and every one of us to decide how you will life your life. If you want to honor a deity, go ahead. Keep in mind you are just falling in line with the same fantasy others had come up with to fulfill the same needs you are now seeking to have fulfilled.
 
healother, you hit upon the entire crux of the matter bro, props to that.

You should ask yourself, do you want to take it upon yourself to give your own life meaning (it can mean as much or as little as you want really) or are you going to rely on others to tell you what that meaning is?
 
jnevin said:
You mean like being good to everyone around you because it's the right thing and possibly leave a legacy because you're unselfish? Or doing it just to get into "heaven"? The latter seems like you'd be living a lie every day of your life, and by just about every religion's standards, a sin.
Click to expand...

Doing something just to get into heaven or just to leave a legacy is silly. Most legacy's are eventually forgotten. And its hard to have a clean conscience when the only motive for your actions is to get into heaven.

I'm saying that we should focus on people and not so much on earthly things, because earthly things rot away, but the soul is at the heart of one's character and the soul lasts forever.

of course those that don't agree with me on the existence of souls wont understand.
 
Lestat said:
healother, you hit upon the entire crux of the matter bro, props to that.

You should ask yourself, do you want to take it upon yourself to give your own life meaning (it can mean as much or as little as you want really) or are you going to rely on others to tell you what that meaning is?
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I guess I can only do what I believe. I can't make myself find my own definition of what is meaningful, because what I think is meaningful is what I believe to be true. And that truth isn't something that came out of my head, it existed long before I was born. I just saw it.
 
healother said:
I guess I can only do what I believe. I can't make myself find my own definition of what is meaningful, because what I think is meaningful is what I believe to be true. And that truth isn't something that came out of my head, it existed long before I was born. I just saw it.
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You are right, this something isn't anything that came out of your head, it was told to you as fact and truth by people in authority. Think for yourself bro, question authority.
 
Spartacus said:
it's hard not to be cynical when often you watch them carve up the money
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I consider it obscene...my dad taught us to make it on our own steam. No arguing over the money, in contrary, I was their only natural born child in their marriage and my dad distributed everything equally between his children and his step children. He was a fair and even man.
 
blackhawk60 said:
If you argue that Katrina wouldn't have happened with a kind God, you got to bring it all in. What I mean is, how can God give you free will, but then make sure nothing bad ever happens, and everything is roses. Free will comes with a price.

Last time I was home, My Grand-dad died. Which sucked, but at least I was home. The funeral was ok. Had to have been the biggest concentration of mullets i've seen. The whole thing was pretty good. Little church out in the sticks. The preacher who had retired got up and talked about growing up around him and the family, told some stories about growing up around him, so it was pretty personal. He was 88 when he went, and he had 10 kids, so it was filled up. There was a lot of talk about church, but church was also a huge part of his life.

The only hiccup was that they didn't say my youngest uncles name when they called out all family, which pissed off all the other ones...since they probably didn't cause he was gay, and most were sure it was due to the (relatively) new wife's wishes. However, you go out to bury him, and there my uncle's grave sitting there (by my granny's). Just seemed dumb and needlessly petty.

It turned into sort of a family reunion. As far as religion goes into it, I can only speak from my experiences...but for them not to say anything about God, or read any versus or such would have been odd to everyone there, since religion had been a huge part of their life with him, and they were at the church most of them had been to through their childhood. It was part of being in the family.

If it wasn't a big part of the guy's life, or he didn't care about it much, I can understand why you would think it takes away from talking about his life and pushes it's own agenda. But if it was, or it is a part of his wife's, it's going to be talked about.
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If you accept a biblical vengeance oriented deity then you sound like the wife of an abusive spouse; "He only gets drunk and beats us once a weak but he provides for us otherwise." She'll soon follow up with, "He only beats me when I do something wrong but he loves me and I love him." Doesn't sound like a healthy relationship to me.
 
healother said:
I guess I can only do what I believe. I can't make myself find my own definition of what is meaningful, because what I think is meaningful is what I believe to be true. And that truth isn't something that came out of my head, it existed long before I was born. I just saw it.
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apply this to the advice youve gotten from EF and you will be golden bor.
 
javaguru said:
If you accept a biblical vengeance oriented deity then you sound like the wife of an abusive spouse; "He only gets drunk and beats us once a weak but he provides for us otherwise." She'll soon follow up with, "He only beats me when I do something wrong but he loves me and I love him." Doesn't sound like a healthy relationship to me.
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I don't think Katrina had anything to do with vengance. It was just life. You build a city in a depression off the Gulf of Mexico, fuck with the flow of the river that deposits sediment and whatever to the delta and the natural barriers the land had, screw up the wetlands, and mix in a hurricane and you have a problem.

As for heavy theological discussions on the nature of God and what we understand. I'm not the most qualified person on that subject, but I don't think we understand a lot. I am not an expert, haven't taken any theology classes yet, but I can think for myself on the matter.

The bible was written by man. The catholic church decided which books to include in the bible, and destroyed some gospels too. But it is obvious that the old testamant was a time with there were no christians. The stories are important, but it was a different way of doing things. Jesus came and changed the way of doing things.

I don't know why it was done the way it was done. The only idea I have come up with is that it had to be done the way it was done in order for survival. People wouldn't have made it then without being a bit ruthless.
 
blackhawk60 said:
I don't think Katrina had anything to do with vengance. It was just life. You build a city in a depression off the Gulf of Mexico, fuck with the flow of the river that deposits sediment and whatever to the delta and the natural barriers the land had, screw up the wetlands, and mix in a hurricane and you have a problem.

As for heavy theological discussions on the nature of God and what we understand. I'm not the most qualified person on that subject, but I don't think we understand a lot. I am not an expert, haven't taken any theology classes yet, but I can think for myself on the matter.

The bible was written by man. The catholic church decided which books to include in the bible, and destroyed some gospels too. But it is obvious that the old testamant was a time with there were no christians. The stories are important, but it was a different way of doing things. Jesus came and changed the way of doing things.

I don't know why it was done the way it was done. The only idea I have come up with is that it had to be done the way it was done in order for survival. People wouldn't have made it then without being a bit ruthless.
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You provided a reasonable and rational response. It's ironic that "God" is given credit for every positive thing that happens and never criticized when bad things happen. If you're an evangelical Christian than God takes a personal interest in and is responsible for everything that happens.
 
lol @ a supreme being even caring. Look at mass murders like Rwanda, you think he had his finger on the pulse of that one?
 
Lestat said:
lol @ a supreme being even caring. Look at mass murders like Rwanda, you think he had his finger on the pulse of that one?
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It's all part of God's plan to test your faith bro......just a test of faith ...like when he commands you to kill your child.....just a test of faith...
 
Lestat said:
If you can't find meaning in life without the false hope of an afterlife then I don't know what to tell you. If you didn't have faith in another life what would you do? Kill yourself? Kill others? Act rude?

I do understand the need for some people's to think they have another existence ahead. I can see why it would be depressing to think of this blink of an eye we have for a life and ask, what's the point? But its up to each and every one of us to decide how you will life your life. If you want to honor a deity, go ahead. Keep in mind you are just falling in line with the same fantasy others had come up with to fulfill the same needs you are now seeking to have fulfilled.
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Most religions incorporate the idea of progression or reward for good behavior up-front. But its a central theme for motivating human beings, not that different from "work hard and you'll get that promotion", "train hard, eat and sleep and you'll finally bench XYZ", or "Go to school and get a degree and better things will be waiting for you". And in some cases, its crap -- you may not get that job regardless... or your genes are never going to let you bench 455... or you're going to be in the low-end of the employment spectrum anyway... Who knows, but sometimes the bet pays-off and sometimes it doesn't.

So does focusing on the promotion interfere with your enjoyment of your current job? It might if you let it. Will you be so obsessed with your goal of 455 that you can't celebrate getting 365 for 5 reps? It might if you let it.

Bottom line is many people -- most people even -- need hope and want a shot at something bigger and better. Why wouldn't you expect to see the same thing in religion?
 
javaguru said:
You provided a reasonable and rational response. It's ironic that "God" is given credit for every positive thing that happens and never criticized when bad things happen. If you're an evangelical Christian than God takes a personal interest in and is responsible for everything that happens.
Click to expand...
There's a semantics issue here. Saying something is God's "will" implies its part of his larger plan. Claiming that each and every specific action is the direct result of God's hand is beyond saying something is "His will".

And yeah, Christians tend to find "Gods Will" selectively and shy away when atrocities or disasters occur. It can be a get-out-of-explanation card for most.
 
Lestat said:
I think my point here is this.

With everyone talking about how this life is just a test, or full of sin and struggles, and the best is yet to come, it seems to demean this existence.

What is wrong with enjoy this life for what it is? Experience it, embrace it, love it. I live my life like there will not be another one, I want this one to be the best it possibly can. Will there ever be another consciousness that is identical to me? No. I'd love to have an eternal life somewhere, but for now I'll enjoy what I do have.
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The early Christian church almost fell into this trap too. A splinter group took-up the idea that all worldly things were bad and evil -- even food and water. I wish I could remember the name of these guys, but Paul wrote a series of letters explaining something similar to what you are saying -- that Christianity is a gift to be celebrated, not a whip to lash yourself with.
 
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