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Ufc 62

I got two matches up in the bookie forum

FORREST GRIFFIN -320
STEPHAN BONNAR +240

Aug-26
10:00:00 PM
CHUCK LIDDEL -250
RENATO SOBRAL +160
 
lidell....I figured that he'd win, but at least have it go to the second round.

Chuckie beat the Brazillian like a step child.
 
EnderJE said:
lidell....I figured that he'd win, but at least have it go to the second round.

Chuckie beat the Brazillian like a step child.
Click to expand...

BJJ sucks! Now the top Echelon fighters kick BJJ practioners asses all the time.
 
PICK3 said:
BJJ sucks! Now the top Echelon fighters kick BJJ practioners asses all the time.
Click to expand...
I dunno if it sucks, but it seems that it's taking a beating right now. I'm sure in a few years the tide will switch again and a street wrestling type fighting style will come back.

So, Chuck vs Wandy....
 
is chuck griffin?
and boonar brazilian?
I need to be correct in the bookie forum
 
EnderJE said:
I dunno if it sucks, but it seems that it's taking a beating right now. I'm sure in a few years the tide will switch again and a street wrestling type fighting style will come back.

So, Chuck vs Wandy....
Click to expand...

Wandy is awesome, but the only chance he has against Chuck is catching him with a MT knee like he did Rampage twice.

Lots of 205 pounders can take Chuck down, but nobody can hold him on the ground and once he's standing he's devastating.
 
PICK3 said:
Wandy is awesome, but the only chance he has against Chuck is catching him with a MT knee like he did Rampage twice.

Lots of 205 pounders can take Chuck down, but nobody can hold him on the ground and once he's standing he's devastating.
Click to expand...
I dunno. I recall Chuckie losing badly in Pride. But then again, Wandy isn't invincible. I wouldn't mind seeng Chuck vs Fedor.
 
EnderJE said:
I dunno. I recall Chuckie losing badly in Pride. But then again, Wandy isn't invincible. I wouldn't mind seeng Chuck vs Fedor.
Click to expand...

Fedor is waaaaaaay too big for Chuck.

The old Chuck in Pride isn't the same fighter.
 
PICK3 said:
Fedor is waaaaaaay too big for Chuck.

The old Chuck in Pride isn't the same fighter.
Click to expand...
Yeah, people change and get better / worse over time. But still, if he won that match, he would of taken Wandy and we could of had this one be the second match. This way, we'd have something to critique against rather then the UFC vs Pride comments that we have.

True, Fedor is alot heavier then Chuck. But, I don't recall Chuck backing down from anyone and both seem to be riding high right now. However, we'll see how well Fedor is doing after his hand heals.
 
EnderJE said:
Yeah, people change and get better / worse over time. But still, if he won that match, he would of taken Wandy and we could of had this one be the second match. This way, we'd have something to critique against rather then the UFC vs Pride comments that we have.

True, Fedor is alot heavier then Chuck. But, I don't recall Chuck backing down from anyone and both seem to be riding high right now. However, we'll see how well Fedor is doing after his hand heals.
Click to expand...

Yeah ... I'd love to see Chuck vs Wandy. Although Chuck is on top of his game now, you can never count out Wandy, he's a sick fuck. If Chuck defeats Wandy his biggest opponent will be what Couture when through ... his age.

When I said Fedor is too big I mean frame wise, he's a natural 230+ pounder while Chuck is best at 205. It would be like when Randy setup to heavyweight and had success until he met fat ass Rodrigues.
 
EnderJE said:
I don't know about BJJ totally sucking...Nog is still good.
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Yeah ... I wouldn't say it totally sucks, but at the very top it doesn't rule like it once did.

Nog couldn't handle Fedor and would have even have his hands full with CroCop since CC improved his takedown defense.

MMA has evolved to exactly that ... you have to have a well versed mixed background.

Can't wait to see Matt vs St. Pierre 2.
 
PICK3 said:
Yeah ... I wouldn't say it totally sucks, but at the very top it doesn't rule like it once did.

Nog couldn't handle Fedor and would have even have his hands full with CroCop since CC improved his takedown defense.

MMA has evolved to exactly that ... you have to have a well versed mixed background.

Can't wait to see Matt vs St. Pierre 2.
Click to expand...

Of course not, it's because it WAS ruling by itself, that other guys starting training jiu jitsu which is going to make it harder for them to dominate.. Its frustrating to see a good standup fighter get taken down and not be trained enough to know what to do, friggin arm hanging out, weak triangle or simple choke just sitting there because he cant put it together in time.. then HE ends up tapping. The fight still usually ends up on the ground, unless a knockout occurs, but really the guy better on the ground will win.
 
CaliGirl said:
Of course not, it's because it WAS ruling by itself, that other guys starting training jiu jitsu which is going to make it harder for them to dominate.. Its frustrating to see a good standup fighter get taken down and not be trained enough to know what to do, friggin arm hanging out, weak triangle or simple choke just sitting there because he cant put it together in time.. then HE ends up tapping. The fight still usually ends up on the ground, unless a knockout occurs, but really the guy better on the ground will win.
Click to expand...
But now we have the other way where some of the good grapplers are getting killed out there because they can't take a punch. Ah well.
 
EnderJE said:
But now we have the other way where some of the good grapplers are getting killed out there because they can't take a punch. Ah well.
Click to expand...

oh yeah, totally it does go both ways as I stated with the knock out. I think Pride has a higher concentration of well rounded fighters, do you?
 
CaliGirl said:
oh yeah, totally it does go both ways as I stated with the knock out. I think Pride has a higher concentration of well rounded fighters, do you?
Click to expand...

Pride is greater at every weight class except Chuck & Matt Hughes.
 
CaliGirl said:
oh yeah, totally it does go both ways as I stated with the knock out. I think Pride has a higher concentration of well rounded fighters, do you?
Click to expand...
Well...I think of it like this. I'm always jazzed to see a Pride fight. I've been really disappointed in the past few UFC fights (liddell vs babalu, hughes vs gracie, silva vs arlovski...)
 
EnderJE said:
Well...I think of it like this. I'm always jazzed to see a Pride fight. I've been really disappointed in the past few UFC fights (liddell vs babalu, hughes vs gracie, silva vs arlovski...)
Click to expand...

Yeah, but have you watched the early PRIDE's ... snore fest.

Things picked up around PRIDE 9.
 
EnderJE said:
Well...I think of it like this. I'm always jazzed to see a Pride fight. I've been really disappointed in the past few UFC fights (liddell vs babalu, hughes vs gracie, silva vs arlovski...)
Click to expand...

Exactly.

So is Chuck v. Wandi on or off? Is it definite either way?

Chuck v. Wandi: either man has a very good chance, IMO.
 
don't wait until the last minute to scoop me on this crap
I love to book shit
 
Protobuilder said:
Exactly.

So is Chuck v. Wandi on or off? Is it definite either way?

Chuck v. Wandi: either man has a very good chance, IMO.
Click to expand...
According to Sherdog and Wiki, it looks like it's off. It would be a good fight, but I'm thinking that Wandy might lose that one for some reason. Chuck's at the top of his game.

Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing Mark Hunt Vs Tim Silvia. The Samoan can sure take a punch (just watching the Mark vs Crocop fight and he took the kick right to the head and shrugged it off).
 
EnderJE said:
According to Sherdog and Wiki, it looks like it's off. It would be a good fight, but I'm thinking that Wandy might lose that one for some reason. Chuck's at the top of his game.

Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing Mark Hunt Vs Tim Silvia. The Samoan can sure take a punch (just watching the Mark vs Crocop fight and he took the kick right to the head and shrugged it off).
Click to expand...

Yeah, but Hunt's grappling/submissions skill are suspect. Tim would be able to take him down and finish him.
 
PICK3 said:
Yeah, but Hunt's grappling/submissions skill are suspect. Tim would be able to take him down and finish him.
Click to expand...
Fully agree. But, I see Tim as more of a standup kind of guy and would try to end it on the feet. I don't see him as a wrestler. But then again, what the hell do I know...
 
PICK3 said:
Yeah ... I wouldn't say it totally sucks, but at the very top it doesn't rule like it once did.

Nog couldn't handle Fedor and would have even have his hands full with CroCop since CC improved his takedown defense.

MMA has evolved to exactly that ... you have to have a well versed mixed background.

Can't wait to see Matt vs St. Pierre 2.
Click to expand...

Do you guys realize Sobral is Brazilian, but not a BJJ guy? He only recently started training at Gracie Barra, the BJJ Mecca. His previous team was Ruas Vale Tudo. His original background is freestyle wrestling.
 
Jacob Creutzfeldt said:
Do you guys realize Sobral is Brazilian, but not a BJJ guy? He only recently started training at Gracie Barra, the BJJ Mecca. His previous team was Ruas Vale Tudo. His original background is freestyle wrestling.
Click to expand...

Yeah ... I heard them blabber about his wrestling accomplishments.

Still at the very upper echelon bjj is on it's way down in MMA.
 
PICK3 said:
Yeah ... I heard them blabber about his wrestling accomplishments.

Still at the very upper echelon bjj is on it's way down in MMA.
Click to expand...

Established BJJ guys like Arona, Bustamante, and Filho would disagree. The BJJ Top game players are still some of the most highly ranked MMA guys in the world. The BJJ guard players are losing out in MMA, because the current rule structures are against them.

BJJ still is a lynchpin skill for MMA. You won't see the submission game dissapear. What you are seeing is guys from BJJ get defeated by guys who know enough BJJ not to go to the ground. Also the rule structure is changing to award fights to guys who fight on the feet. If you refuse to go down with a BJJ guy and he butt scoots and invites you down, he is considered unagressive and penalized. The same argument can be had that the standup guy is unagressive though as he also is refusing to engage. There is a 'standup' rule, but conversely no 'come down' rule.
 
Jacob Creutzfeldt said:
Established BJJ guys like Arona, Bustamante, and Filho would disagree. The BJJ Top game players are still some of the most highly ranked MMA guys in the world. The BJJ guard players are losing out in MMA, because the current rule structures are against them.

BJJ still is a lynchpin skill for MMA. You won't see the submission game dissapear. What you are seeing is guys from BJJ get defeated by guys who know enough BJJ not to go to the ground. Also the rule structure is changing to award fights to guys who fight on the feet. If you refuse to go down with a BJJ guy and he butt scoots and invites you down, he is considered unagressive and penalized. The same argument can be had that the standup guy is unagressive though as he also is refusing to engage. There is a 'standup' rule, but conversely no 'come down' rule.
Click to expand...
Like I said, right now the BJJ / wrestling guys are getting beat. Give it a few years and the tide will turn. Either through the rules or (better yet) they'll adapt.
 
I have a wrestling background and have always pulled for the grapplers, but CroCop with minimum grappling training proved how easy it is to learn takedown defense.

I'm not dismissing the contributions of BJJ to MMA, but it's no the dominant force.

Again I'm talking about the very best MMA practioners. I have plans to fuck with a Gracie personally.

I think it's easier to learn takedown/sub defense that not getting KTFO by a true striker.

It's roughly analogous to triathletes. Obviously you have to master running/cycling/swiming, but it's easier for the swimmer to master the other two than a runner who's never been in a pool.
 
PICK3 said:
I have a wrestling background and have always pulled for the grapplers, but CroCop with minimum grappling training proved how easy it is to learn takedown defense.

I'm not dismissing the contributions of BJJ to MMA, but it's no the dominant force.

Again I'm talking about the very best MMA practioners. I have plans to fuck with a Gracie personally.

I think it's easier to learn takedown/sub defense that not getting KTFO by a true striker.

It's roughly analogous to triathletes. Obviously you have to master running/cycling/swiming, but it's easier for the swimmer to master the other two than a runner who's never been in a pool.
Click to expand...


I can introduce you to a few, I'd LOVE to see you "fuck with a Gracie personally"!!!
 
CaliGirl said:
I can introduce you to a few, I'd LOVE to see you "fuck with a Gracie personally"!!!
Click to expand...

No thanks ... I meant to say I don't plan to fuck with a Gracie personally. :worried:

Wait a second, this is the internet ... bring them pussies on. :)
 
PICK3 said:
No thanks ... I meant to say I don't plan to fuck with a Gracie personally. :worried:

Wait a second, this is the internet ... bring them pussies on. :)
Click to expand...
Wait a sec. You wanna fuck a Gracie? Pretty ghey. IMHO.
 
EnderJE said:
Like I said, right now the BJJ / wrestling guys are getting beat. Give it a few years and the tide will turn. Either through the rules or (better yet) they'll adapt.
Click to expand...

I agree the wrestlers are generally on the decline, but BJJ stylists still rank highest when they compete. Guys like Paulo Filho, the Noguiera bros., Ricardo Arona, Murillo Bustamante, and BJ Penn are all championship caliber fighters. You find no other discipline that routinely produces more high quality fighters.

The true decline is caused when camps become 'incestuous'. By incestuous I mean they do not train outside their sphere of expertise. BTT is composed entirely of BJJ guys, but they bring in other training disciplines to adapt the BJJ to counter other styles. When Fedor prepped for Cro-cop he brought Jerome Lebanner into his camp. A team like Hammerhouse would be an example of an incestuous camp. Mainly they train as wrestlers vs. wrestlers and hence do not train to fight as wrestlers vs. kickboxers, vs. BJJ guys etc. Why would Mark Coleman routinely spar with Kevin Randleman if he's prepping for Cro-cop? It makes as much sense as driving laps in a dump truck to practice for the Indy 500.

I think we agree more than we disagree. I just don't see the decline of BJJ fighters. I still see them as generally dominant and certainly most influential. None of this happens in a vaccuum though. All the teams are to some degree stylistically cross-pollinated.
 
Protobuilder said:
Not that it matters much, if at all, but Hammerhouse trains Phil Baroni, who's a very good striker, IIRC.
Click to expand...

No. That does matter. The guys at Hammerhouse know what they need to do I'm sure. They work with Renzo Gracie also. I'm sure it was a submission wake up call was when Randleman was guillotined by Cro-cop. They spent a long streak as a top team. The problem with a team on the decline like Hammerhouse is, "Who wants to train there?". If you aspire to be a top fighter you want to be training with a winning team. They have to draw the talent from other arts somehow and too many team losses will not draw new, versatile talent. Everybody wants to hitch to a shooting star, not a falling star.
 
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