ttlpkg....IT depression is real....

[strongchick]

Snarfed this quote from netslaves.com for you as an example of how depressed the IT market is:

"Just to back up my friend and his friends who have been out of work for over a year...Ive been laid off and unemployed for 6 months nowmyself. I use to be a Cisco Network Engineer and Architect, i designed and built from the ground up, $50 million dollar e-business, e-commerce etc networks on a global level....i have been looking for a job EVERY SINGLE DAY for 6 months now. It is just like youve been reading! It's worse than the great depression, i guess all of youy lucky folks that still hold jobs just would rather prefer to walk thru this entire thing with blinders on and pretend it isnt happening? CASE IN POINT: I have spent the last 2 weeks going to every single company with a network and an IT department in the entire Southern NH and MA areas, ive in this 2 week period printed over 100 resumes (mine are 4 pages long as i have many years and much experience) and hand delivered them to over 100 companies.....let me tell you some statistics iv'e learned (of course youll never hear about these companys statistics because their not Enrons or large enough for the magor news organizations to even bother with).
FACT 1- Every single one of these 100 companys has had magor layoffs in the last 2 months, and laying off more by the week these last 2 weeks!
FACT 2- 25% of them are already in Chapter 11 and struggling just to keep their doors open every single day!
FACT 3- Another 25% of them are shutting their doors completely within days and or over the next week or two!
And every single receptionist ive been greeted by when i lay my spiel on them that i am a laid off Network Engineer pounding the pavement looking for work, has gotten a good chuckle and wished me the best as they will all soon be in the same boat as me and the million + other laid off IT workers out there in lala land (they say the figure is a million+, but i'd bet my left and right nuts it is triple that, i dont think anyone has the balls to tell us the real figure, that's how bad it really is...) SO why dont you wake up and stand up in the shit your shoveling in and get a grip on reality......because right now, the state that this country and the economy is in makes the Great Depression look like a fucking picnic!!!! Oh yeah, and by the way, to everyone, did you ever think that it is pretty hard to relocate, when your flat broke, the unemployment has run out and your surviving on grunt wages..DUHHHHHHHHH? It totally mystifies me that some of you are highly intelligent hi-tech workers with brains and degrees, and what mystifies me even more is that most of you pipe dreamers still have jobs? WAKE UP PEOPLE, this country is in a world of shit, and all our government gives a flying shit about is every other pissant country in the world and those country's problems, the Airlines and the Insurance industry, etc(?) and not one flying rats-ass about its own people, the hard working out of work american citizens, who want nothing more to have a job like me and all those million(S) others, we, who gave every ounce and drop of their blood, sweat and tears via 16-18 hour days every single day for years like myself (me a lot of 24 hour straight days as well thank you very much!) -CASE IN POINT: All the Republicans want to do is give $100 billion in a so called stimulas package to Corporate America and screw the american citizen and laid off workers, Jesus H Christ, this is like a extremely bad nightmare that never ends and you cant wake up from, as if big corporations dont have and isnt sitting on enough stockpiles of money, and we the laid off Hi-Tech workers who have nothing and are fearing eviction, foreclosures, utilities shutoffs and car repossesions, will all be living in the streets in cardboard boxes soon enough just dont seem to matter at all, were just statistics to our own government

signed, a laid off extremely intelligent, high end, ex $90k a year network engineer corporate refugee statistic...THINK ABOUT ALL OF THAT! The next time any of you make some idiotic remark, cause it could be you next, out here with the rest of us! in HELL
...."

 

[TheProject]

For someone who claims to be extremely intelligent, the writer of that post sure isn't very eloquent and obviously doesn't know how to use a spell checker.

As far as the meat of what he or she is saying, I don't know that I buy it. I just had to lay off one of my employees yesterday, and he had a job offer as of last week. He has one certification, a wide variety of skills, and no degree.

I think the job market and the difficulty in finding a new IT job varies from region to region.

 

[strongchick]

For someone who claims to be extremely intelligent, the writer of that post sure isn't very eloquent and obviously doesn't know how to use a spell checker.

As far as the meat of what he or she is saying, I don't know that I buy it. I just had to lay off one of my employees yesterday, and he had a job offer as of last week. He has one certification, a wide variety of skills, and no degree.

I think the job market and the difficulty in finding a new IT job varies from region to region.

what salary level? cheap guys can find jobs easy in my region.

 

[saint808]

it jobs here are nowhere to be found for sure.

 

[TheProject]

what salary level? cheap guys can find jobs easy in my region.

Well, I'd call it mid-to-high. He's not a cheap help desk guy, that's for sure. Yeah, the mid 20's guys are always in demand.

In this instance, it would've been about a $10K raise.

 

[the nature boy]

Well, I'd call it mid-to-high. He's not a cheap help desk guy, that's for sure. Yeah, the mid 20's guys are always in demand.

In this instance, it would've been about a $10K raise.

a 10K raise? Then I want to get laid off.

I'm joking in case someone is monitoring my internet activity.

 

[TheProject]

a 10K raise? Then I want to get laid off.

I'm joking in case someone is monitoring my internet activity.

Yeah, I laughed when he told me about it, because then his salary would be higher than mine, and I was his manager!

 

[the nature boy]

Yeah, I laughed when he told me about it, because then his salary would be higher than mine, and I was his manager!

welcome to the wonderful world of information technology.

Hey project, what kind of work do you do?

 

[TheProject]

welcome to the wonderful world of information technology.

Hey project, what kind of work do you do?

No kidding.

I'm a professional geek. I've done Mac support, PC support, NT Server work, network admin stuff, even some phone stuff.

Now I'm in managment, which to my employees means I'm technically stupid.

With him being laid off, I'll be doing more technical stuff, but I've kept myself in it pretty well the whole time. Not quite as sharp as I used to be, but I hold my own.

All told, I've been in IT for about 5 years, and I still love it.

 

[strongchick]

No kidding.

I'm a professional geek. I've done Mac support, PC support, NT Server work, network admin stuff, even some phone stuff.

Now I'm in managment, which to my employees means I'm technically stupid.

With him being laid off, I'll be doing more technical stuff, but I've kept myself in it pretty well the whole time. Not quite as sharp as I used to be, but I hold my own.

All told, I've been in IT for about 5 years, and I still love it.

glad you are happy and employed...but that Cisco guy ranting is like...from way beyond PC support and NT network admin.

I'm talking about IT people with intense degrees and Cisco certs -- Cisco certs...that can't get jobs.

 

[Test boy]

IT workers are not the only ones biting a big bullet. I'm a photographer....guess what gets cut out in a bad recession? I'm sure this is true of many other businesses with a product that people do not necessarily need. My phone rings about 2% as much as it used to. I'd be dead without other income.

 

[the nature boy]

No kidding.

I'm a professional geek. I've done Mac support, PC support, NT Server work, network admin stuff, even some phone stuff.

Now I'm in managment, which to my employees means I'm technically stupid.

With him being laid off, I'll be doing more technical stuff, but I've kept myself in it pretty well the whole time. Not quite as sharp as I used to be, but I hold my own.

All told, I've been in IT for about 5 years, and I still love it.

OMG that management line is soooo damn funny. That's what happens over here too. Once people become managers they lose any sort of technical skill. "Uh, you mean a switch and a router aren't the same?" "I don't care how you make it work, just do it."

 

[TheProject]

glad you are happy and employed...but that Cisco guy ranting is like...from way beyond PC support and NT network admin.

I'm talking about IT people with intense degrees and Cisco certs -- Cisco certs...that can't get jobs.

I understand that he's above and beyond NT admin, but if he's cross-trained, he should be able to get a different job.

That, to me, is like a CEO complaining because he can't make 2 million a year anymore. If I'm forced to change jobs, I fully realize that I will probably step back at least one level and take a pay cut.

This also seems to me to be symptomatic of all these schools and programs churning out certified professionals. You end up, in many cases, with people that are book smart in a certain area, lacking experience, and having no cross-training.

Certifications and specialized professionals are great, but it can be very limiting.

 

[the nature boy]

Certifications and specialized professionals are great, but it can be very limiting.

That's true. being very specialized is not a good thing, having a good knowledge covering the entire systems architecture is probably going to save someones ass if they get laid off.

 

[TheProject]

OMG that management line is soooo damn funny. That's what happens over here too. Once people become managers they lose any sort of technical skill. "Uh, you mean a switch and a router aren't the same?" "I don't care how you make it work, just do it."

My boss is a pretty sharp guy, but he has his moments.

One of my favorite arguments with him was whether or not frame relay was a WAN or not...

 

[TheProject]

That's true. being very specialized is not a good thing, having a good knowledge covering the entire systems architecture is probably going to save someones ass if they get laid off.

You need to have a variety of skills to survive in IT. Everything changes SO fast that what you're really good at might be gone in a year or two.

If I hadn't learned to support PC's, I'd be up a creek right now. Try finding a Mac support job.

 

[Code]

It is indeed bad out there.
I'm interviewing for experienced (but not senior) network engineers, and I get resumes from people with graduate level degrees and director/executive experience.

I'd say for each position I have open I get an average of 200 resumes a week.

It's not pretty in the IT field right now, and it's not going to get any better for about a year or so. Once all the companies realize that having 10 Sr VPs of Marketing running 20 marketing grunts, it's going to be a cold Christmas for those guys.

I have a friend starting a business and all the IT and programming work is being done by people volunteering on the off-chance the company will fly and they'll get a job 3-6 months from now.

 

[TheProject]

Hey Code, if you don't mind my asking, what part of the country are you in? I'm in the Midwest, and I suspect that the market is worse out west, but I don't have any facts to back that up.

 

[HappyScrappy]

the market isn't good in boston either, I have friends that have been out for like 5 months.
I'm really hoping I don't get laid off.
I'm tryting to get things setup on the side - but really I just wish things were back to normal - not insane where no talent ass clowns are getting good jobs, but just normal where I don't have to frea losing my job and there being nothing out there.

I also feel bad for all of the people that switched to comp sci b/c they heard of the huge demand that there will be and now there is very little demand... so they are going to come flood the market with young unexperience labor... not going to be pretty...

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Wow! Did I leave the IT world at the right time!

I was a Cisco guy.

 

[the nature boy]

I'm on the east coast, and we're getting hit hard too. Like code said, we're laying off VP's now.

 

[strongchick]

I understand that he's above and beyond NT admin, but if he's cross-trained, he should be able to get a different job.

That, to me, is like a CEO complaining because he can't make 2 million a year anymore. If I'm forced to change jobs, I fully realize that I will probably step back at least one level and take a pay cut.

This also seems to me to be symptomatic of all these schools and programs churning out certified professionals. You end up, in many cases, with people that are book smart in a certain area, lacking experience, and having no cross-training.

Certifications and specialized professionals are great, but it can be very limiting.

dude...a CCIE or CCNP is not like other certs. I agree you should have other skills. But if you get CCIE or even CCNP, you probably don't have time to study for other things...that program is so intense. Remember, a CCIE goes to a lab with Cisco head techies gazing over you to see if you can solve their riddles. And a CCNP cannot be acquired without SOME handson.

And face it, most normal people figure that if they stay out of management, the more experience they get, the more money they get. That's the whole point of being a techie, at least I thought.

Incomes should balance out a bit, given lower demand, but not even able to find a job?

I'm shaking my head at this.

 

[Lao Tzu]

thats sad. all these people devoting 5 or 6 years to getting a degree that won't be good for more than a couple years in an unreliable business.

 

[the nature boy]

is there such a thing as being overspecialized then? We don't have any CCIE's but we do tons of Cisco implementations all the time. CCIE's would probably be too expensive, plus let's face it, if you have proper connections with vendors and have a somewhat large expereinced organization, CCIE's aren't needed IMO.

 

[Code]

I'm in the Bay Area out in California.

Being specialized is tantamount to death. I look for multi-faceted skill sets in an employee, the day of the 'role player' in IT is gone, no one gets a paycheck for being a Tape Ape or DB admin.

 

[TheProject]

dude...a CCIE or CCNP is not like other certs. I agree you should have other skills. But if you get CCIE or even CCNP, you probably don't have time to study for other things...that program is so intense. Remember, a CCIE goes to a lab with Cisco head techies gazing over you to see if you can solve their riddles. And a CCNP cannot be acquired without SOME handson.

And face it, most normal people figure that if they stay out of management, the more experience they get, the more money they get. That's the whole point of being a techie, at least I thought.

Incomes should balance out a bit, given lower demand, but not even able to find a job?

I'm shaking my head at this.

Believe me, I know a CCIE or CCNP is not like other certs, and you may not have time to study for other certs concurrently, but you have to decide on your path of progression. The tech I've got on staff got his MCSE, and then went after Cisco certification. He's a CCNA right now, and is pursuing further Cisco certification because it interests him. However, he doesn't want to do *just* routers.

In my experience, what you said about staying out of management was true a year or two ago, but not so much anymore. There comes a point where you simply cannot advance any more. I've got a buddy who does mainframe work, and he's stuck where he's at. Sure, he makes good money, but there's no more career progression for him.

Personally, I've always wanted to get into management. I enjoy the techie work, but I get sick of getting the same question every damn day. How many times do I have to tell people how to open e-mail? That's an exaggeration, but I'm sure you understand what I mean.

I think there are jobs out there, but not nearly as many high-demand, high salary jobs as there once were. It drives me nuts to hear all these IT training places advertise on the radio. "Come get trained in Microsoft, Cisco, or Novell! Make $60,000 a year!"

The job market is tight, yes, but this is not the great depression all over again.

 

[TheProject]

I'm in the Bay Area out in California.

Being specialized is tantamount to death. I look for multi-faceted skill sets in an employee, the day of the 'role player' in IT is gone, no one gets a paycheck for being a Tape Ape or DB admin.

Amen to that. I'm part manager, project leader, server admin, help desk tech, tape operator, and network admin. When I hired my last tech in February, I looked for experience and a broad skill set.

 

[the nature boy]

I think there are jobs out there, but not nearly as many high-demand, high salary jobs as there once were. It drives me nuts to hear all these IT training places advertise on the radio. "Come get trained in Microsoft, Cisco, or Novell! Make $60,000 a year!"

Dude those places fucking suck. I went to one of those places like 4 years ago to study Novell Netware (remember that?). The material is so bad and dumbed down for all the rejects and mullets heads and drooling open mouth breathers out there. They claim to have some sort of standardized test to only let those that are capable of comprehending the concepts actaully take the courses. Instead they let anyone come in, and most of them drop out (including me). Those places are shady. Those places cost $$$$'s too!!

 

[TheProject]

Dude those places fucking suck. I went to one of those places like 4 years ago to study Novell Netware (remember that?). The material is so bad and dumbed down for all the rejects and mullets heads and drooling open mouth breathers out there. They claim to have some sort of standardized test to only let those that are capable of comprehending the concepts actaully take the courses. Instead they let anyone come in, and most of them drop out (including me). Those places are shady. Those places cost $$$$'s too!!

I think there's some value to the material that they teach, but you're not going to create a competent tech of any sort in a matter of weeks. I had several applicants with no experience that went through that training, and suddenly thought they were technical wizards.

If someone wants to go to classes there, and do some work on an entry level help desk, then cool. Don't get an MCSE and expect me to let you work on my servers with no real experience.

 

[the nature boy]

I think there's some value to the material that they teach, but you're not going to create a competent tech of any sort in a matter of weeks. I had several applicants with no experience that went through that training, and suddenly thought they were technical wizards.

If someone wants to go to classes there, and do some work on an entry level help desk, then cool. Don't get an MCSE and expect me to let you work on my servers with no real experience.

they may have some valuable material, but I'd rather buy a book instead. You can have a cert or whatever, but no matter how much you know there's going to be a learning curve whenever you enter a new environment.

 

[Code]

I'll never hire someone with only certs again. Being CCNA CCIE or any other allegedly high dollar certificate programs do not teach people the essential things above and beyond networking.

If I take a guy with just certs and a high school diploma and ask him to give me statement of work to put an IPSec enginer in the DMZ, he'd never be able to do the documents even though he could likely do the work.

And likewise, if I asked someone with only certs present a proposal displaying the ROI of going from platform X to platform Z, he'd turn white with fear.

Guys with certs tend to be role players, they can only do what they've studied. The industry needs people who can do a lot more than administer to a network and a database.

 

[strongchick]

I'm a programmer.

I stopped getting certs in 1999.

CCIE...do you know any?

They are not your typical paper techie.

 

[the nature boy]

hey I'm looking for a job. does anyone know who's looking for anyone with DOS or Windows 3.1 experience?

 

[TheProject]

they may have some valuable material, but I'd rather buy a book instead. You can have a cert or whatever, but no matter how much you know there's going to be a learning curve whenever you enter a new environment.

Absolutely. I always tell people there's the Microsoft way and then there's the right way.

 

[TheProject]

hey I'm looking for a job. does anyone know who's looking for anyone with DOS or Windows 3.1 experience?

Boy, not so much anymore. Most places are at least looking for Win95 experience, preferable NT and 2000.

 

[TheProject]

I'm a programmer.

I stopped getting certs in 1999.

CCIE...do you know any?

They are not your typical paper techie.

Nah, I don't know any CCIE's, and I'll take your word for the fact that they're not your typical paper techie. I would venture to guess that the problem with having that high a level of certification is that you'd need a large environment to really live up to your potential. Plus, I suspect that many places are looking for the jack-of-all trades types as opposed to specialists. The niche for specialists has certainly shrunk.

Something else that has not been mentioned in all this are the factors outside of certs. Things like communication skills, interviewing skills, etiquette, personal presentation, etc. I can't tell you how many people I interviewed that didn't know how to give a proper interview, how to answer questions, or think on their feet.

Not to mention the people that were rejected out-of-hand because they misspelled words on their resume or used incorrect grammar.

Some may think that I'm too picky about such things given that I'm hiring for technical positions, but I think it says a lot about your level of professionalism.

Anyway, just something else to think about.

 

[Island Son]

(i assume you're kidding but)
not even the refurbished-computer nonprofits use Win 3.1.
I still use my dos skills every few months. Batches are cool!

 

[the nature boy]

Boy, not so much anymore. Most places are at least looking for Win95 experience, preferable NT and 2000.

sorry that was my idea of a bad joke.

 

[Drew Carey]

You guys are making me scared! I just got laid off from my job. I was a manger at a trucking company (a fortune 300 company) for close to 10 years. I have enough money and unemployment checks coming in to support my ass for a year while I go back to the local university. I'm signed up for a bunch Cisco related classes and plan on taking the test next December or so. Now you guys are making me question my decision.

 

[minion]

One things for sure the IT profession is certainly a boring occupation. That's depressing enough.

When I retire from the Navy, I'm going to take up a complete opposite. Like furniture making, race car building, a bike shop anything but this.

 

[TheProject]

sorry that was my idea of a bad joke.

Well, that's what I get for being a tard and biting on your bad joke...

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

I think one of you guys above said this - but the modern tech person will have an understadning of business as well as how to do tech stuff.

The days of being just a tech guy are coming to an end. A corporation will be looking forpeople who ADD value, and a tech guy who understands business (particularly the role of tech in the company's business) is worth something to the company.

A tech guy who does only tech is a necessary evil. There's the difference.

Strongchick, I know dozens of CCIE's. Most of them are OK, a few are exceptional, and a few are shit. It happens. I myself am a CCNP and I have passed teh CCNP written. I also have a contract to write a book on the subject. I know my Cisco shit. And I am thrilled to be out of the field.

 

[TheProject]

You guys are making me scared! I just got laid off from my job. I was a manger at a trucking company (a fortune 300 company) for close to 10 years. I have enough money and unemployment checks coming in to support my ass for a year while I go back to the local university. I'm signed up for a bunch Cisco related classes and plan on taking the test next December or so. Now you guys are making me question my decision.

Well, I think if there's any lesson to be learned out of this thread, it's to diversify your skill set so that you can not only do Cisco work, but a variety of other things too.

It's hard to pursue multiple paths at the same time, if it's possible at all. I know the Cisco certs require a lot of time. Hopefully, you can get an entry-level position somewhere after you're done with classes, and work your way up.

Who knows, by next December, the IT environment could (and probably will) be completely different.

 

[TheProject]

I think one of you guys above said this - but the modern tech person will have an understadning of business as well as how to do tech stuff.

The days of being just a tech guy are coming to an end. A corporation will be looking forpeople who ADD value, and a tech guy who understands business (particularly the role of tech in the company's business) is worth something to the company.

A tech guy who does only tech is a necessary evil. There's the difference.

Strongchick, I know dozens of CCIE's. Most of them are OK, a few are exceptional, and a few are shit. It happens. I myself am a CCNP and I have passed teh CCNP written. I also have a contract to write a book on the subject. I know my Cisco shit. And I am thrilled to be out of the field.

And this is why I'm pursuing my MIS degree instead of straight CS. I think there's a lot of value to the business knowledge in the IT world.

Matt, what drove you out of the field?

 

[natasan]

I'm talking about IT people with intense degrees and Cisco certs -- Cisco certs...that can't get jobs.

With everyone searching jobs right now, people just need to find ways to make themselves more marketable.

If you're talking CCNA for a cisco cert - good luck. They mean as much as McDonald's napkins. High schools offer Cisco Academy now as a course - ending in either a CCNA or CCNP.

Take a look into things like SANS GIAC or the SSCP / CISSP for certifications that matter. If you're a router / switch monkey and out of work - well, get back into either system administration, programing, or database work.

If you know anything about SAP, PeopleSoft, or ERD in general - there are quite a few jobs still hiring.

 

[strongchick]

With everyone searching jobs right now, people just need to find ways to make themselves more marketable.

If you're talking CCNA for a cisco cert - good luck. They mean as much as McDonald's napkins. High schools offer Cisco Academy now as a course - ending in either a CCNA or CCNP.

Take a look into things like SANS GIAC or the SSCP / CISSP for certifications that matter. If you're a router / switch monkey and out of work - well, get back into either system administration, programing, or database work.

If you know anything about SAP, PeopleSoft, or ERD in general - there are quite a few jobs still hiring.

I'm talking CCIE

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Matt, what drove you out of the field?

1. Kind of bored with NY city (20 years will do it), needed a change of scenery. The best paying tech jobs are in NYC.

2. Kinda bored with tech work in general. Wroiting a tech book is enough tech.

3. Excellent management opportunity at an impressive outsourcing company.

4. Some success with my own businesses.

 

[strongchick]

1. Kind of bored with NY city (20 years will do it), needed a change of scenery. The best paying tech jobs are in NYC.

2. Kinda bored with tech work in general. Wroiting a tech book is enough tech.

3. Excellent management opportunity at an impressive outsourcing company.

4. Some success with my own businesses.

what business are you in?

 

[huntmaster]

Well . . .

I am in the DFW area and will graduate in a week and a half with a CIS degree and the pickings are very slim down here.

I have interviewed for several jobs and got second interviews to two of them----but the one that I was counting on ended with a supposed 'cut back' of desired new-hires.----Texas Utilities Corp.(big energy giant in TX)

Me and a few buddies are going to hit dallas hard this month and January and if nothing comes up ----- I will just take the Java and Dreamweaver classes that I am signed up for and keep working part-time.

I never thought the job market would be like this when I started---but its not a problem. I am confident that I will end up with the right job before long.