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*The Ross Protocols: Beginner, Intermediate, and Advanced Cycles!*

Ross

Grand Master Junior
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The Ross Protocols:
Beginner, Intermediate, and Advanced Steroid Therapies!




Beginner Cycles




Beginner BULKING Cycle #1

Weeks 1-4: Dianabol, 25mgs ED
Weeks 1-8: Testosterone Enanthate, 250mgs
Weeks 8-12: Oral Winstrol, 50mgs ED
*PCT - post cycle therapy - *


Beginner BULKING Cycle #2

Weeks 1-6: Dianabol, 40mgs ED
Weeks 1-8: Sustanon, 500mgs
Weeks 6-10: Anavar, 50mgs ED
*PCT - post cycle therapy - *


Beginner CUTTING Cycle #1

Weeks 1-8: Primobolan, 300mgs
Weeks 1-8: Testosterone Enanthate, 250mgs
Weeks 1-10: Anavar, 50mgs ED
*PCT - post cycle therapy - *

Beginner CUTTING Cycle #2

Weeks 1-8: Primobolan, 300mgs
Weeks 1-8: Testosterone Propionate, 100mgs EOD
Weeks 1-8: Winstrol, 50mgs ED
*PCT - post cycle therapy - *





Intermediate Cycles


Intermediate BULKING Cycle #1


Weeks 1-6: Dianabol, 30-40mgs ED
Weeks 1-10: Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - , 400mgs
Weeks 1-10: testosterone enanthate, 500mgs
Weeks 6-12: Turinabol, 50mgs ED
*Pre-PCT - post cycle therapy - *
*PCT - post cycle therapy - *


Intermediate BULKING Cycle #2

Weeks 1-6: Dianabol, 30-40mgs ED
Weeks 1-12: Equipoise, 600mgs
Weeks 1-10: Omnadren, 500mgs
Weeks 8-14: Turinabol, 50mgs ED
*Pre-PCT - post cycle therapy - *
*PCT - post cycle therapy - *


Intermediate CUTTING Cycle #2


Weeks 1-10: Turinabol, 50mgs ED
Weeks 1-10: Testosterone Propionate, 150mgs EOD
Weeks 1-10: Masteron, 100mgs EOD
Weeks 1-10: Anavar, 50mgs ED
*Pre-PCT - post cycle therapy - *
*PCT - post cycle therapy - *


Intermediate CUTTING Cycle #2


Weeks 1-10: Winstrol, 75mgs ED
Weeks 1-10: Testosterone Propionate, 150mgs EOD
Weeks 1-10: Masteron, 100mgs EOD
Weeks 1-10: Primobolan, 400mgs
*Pre-PCT - post cycle therapy - *
*PCT - post cycle therapy - *




Advanced Cycles


Advanced BULKING Cycle #1


Weeks 1-6: Anadrol, 100mgs ED
Weeks 1-10: Testosterone Enanthate, 750mgs
Weeks 1-10: Trenbolone Acetate, 50-75mgs ED
Weeks 1-12: Equipoise, 600mgs
Weeks 8-12: Masteron, 150mgs EOD
*Pre-PCT - post cycle therapy - *
*PCT - post cycle therapy - *

Advanced BULKING Cycle #2


Weeks 1-4: Testosterone Suspension, 50-100mgs ED
Weeks 1-10: Testosterone Enanthate, 750mgs
Weeks 1-10: Trenbolone Acetate, 50-75mgs ED
Weeks 1-12: Primobolan, 600mgs
Weeks 8-12: Halotestin, 30mgs ED
*Pre-PCT - post cycle therapy - *
*PCT - post cycle therapy - *


Advanced CUTTING Cycle #1


Weeks 1-8: Winstrol, 100mgs ED
Weeks 1-10: Testosterone Propionate, 150mgs EOD
Weeks 1-10: Trenbolone Acetate, 50-75mgs ED
Weeks 1-10: Anavar, 80mgs ED
Weeks 8-10: Masteron, 150mgs ED
*Pre-PCT - post cycle therapy - *
*PCT - post cycle therapy - *


Advanced CUTTING Cycle #2


Weeks 1-10: Masteron, 150mgs EOD
Weeks 1-10: Testosterone Propionate, 150mgs EOD
Weeks 1-10: Trenbolone Acetate, 50-75mgs ED
Weeks 1-10: Primobolan, 400mgs
Weeks 6-10: Halotestin, 30mgs ED
*Pre-PCT - post cycle therapy - *
*PCT - post cycle therapy - *​
 
Primo and Long Ester tests for 8 weeks? Interesting. That is guaranteed to leave beginners feeling cheated on their first cycle, especially since the magic won't be happening until week 6.

Your beginner cutting cycles are my ideal bulkers, with doses slightly modified.

Did we mention diet in this thread?

Either way it's a nice gathering of raw, basic information.
 
Advanced Cutting Cycle #2, June 15TH. That is the best cut cycle around.

It's good to see Halo in there. So many people are scared of it. They should be... if used improperly.

Ran this cycle last summer too. Only major downer for me was insomnia. But I have some Ambien to get me through 8-10 weeks of Tren.... Strong like BULL!

Good post, Thanks Ross!
 
halfcenturian said:
Advanced Cutting Cycle #2, June 15TH. That is the best cut cycle around.

It's good to see Halo in there. So many people are scared of it. They should be... if used improperly.

Ran this cycle last summer too. Only major downer for me was insomnia. But I have some Ambien to get me through 8-10 weeks of Tren.... Strong like BULL!

Good post, Thanks Ross!
Anytime my friend. :)
 
good ross! finally someone else that agrees u do not need a gozillioin mg's of primo on a cycle to be effective
 
Ross said:
The Ross Protocols:
Beginner, Intermediate, and Advanced Steroid Therapies!




Beginner Cycles




Beginner BULKING Cycle #1

Weeks 1-4: Dianabol, 25mgs ED
Weeks 1-8: Testosterone Enanthate, 250mgs
Weeks 8-12: Oral Winstrol, 50mgs ED
*PCT - post cycle therapy - *



your recommending wait 4 weeks for the test to clear before starting pct??​
 
So the ideas behind this is to build high androgens which of course will aid in muscle and strength gains and simply disregard the properties (ie benfits of each compound--ie anavar can aid in fat loss but its simply used as an androgen) working together with the other orals?
 
No matter what the body will not produce more gains even when swapping and mixing compounds,



As soon as your put androgens in the blood stream the body attempts to reach homeostatis and slows your gains down even if your pumping loads in or swapping compounds,

If this was true we would all be doing this and be 500lbs+, come on for gods sake,

, the body grows very fast at the begining of any cycle depending on compounds then it reacts to the growth by shutting it down, staying on for what ever reason results in more sides,

Your better off priming opening the growth window hit a short cycle and before the body can react and adjust your off recovering fast,
 
So u r an advocate of short 6-8 week cycles? Give an example of a standard one u might use?

Faizakafez said:
No matter what the body will not produce more gains even when swapping and mixing compounds,



As soon as your put androgens in the blood stream the body attempts to reach homeostatis and slows your gains down even if your pumping loads in or swapping compounds,

If this was true we would all be doing this and be 500lbs+, come on for gods sake,

, the body grows very fast at the begining of any cycle depending on compounds then it reacts to the growth by shutting it down, staying on for what ever reason results in more sides,

Your better off priming opening the growth window hit a short cycle and before the body can react and adjust your off recovering fast,
 
Faizakafez said:
No matter what the body will not produce more gains even when swapping and mixing compounds,



As soon as your put androgens in the blood stream the body attempts to reach homeostatis and slows your gains down even if your pumping loads in or swapping compounds,

If this was true we would all be doing this and be 500lbs+, come on for gods sake,

, the body grows very fast at the begining of any cycle depending on compounds then it reacts to the growth by shutting it down, staying on for what ever reason results in more sides,

Your better off priming opening the growth window hit a short cycle and before the body can react and adjust your off recovering fast,

This is utter nonsense, I have my BEST gains on most injectables from weeks 5-10, and when adding an additional anabolic, up to 20 weeks of full anabolic effect.

A 6 week cycle is a JOKE for the serious bodybuilder bro.
 
Ross said:
This is utter nonsense, I have my BEST gains on most injectables from weeks 5-10, and when adding an additional anabolic, up to 20 weeks of full anabolic effect.

A 6 week cycle is a JOKE for the serious bodybuilder bro.

Usually my cycles range between 8-12 weeks. 6 weeks is too short. This time, I agree with Ross. Good post btw.
 
xrsist said:
your recommending wait 4 weeks for the test to clear before starting pct??

bro make your point

..I mean are you asking him cuz you didn't understand it?
..or do you disagree with it? ..and if so where? ..& why?

cuz it looks like you're just heckling him
 
Chocolate_Thunder said:

There are three essential stages of a Proper "Steroid Therapy":

1.) The Steroid Cycle: Anabolic steroids are utilized over the course of many weeks, sometimes many months, as the bodybuilder aquires as much muscle mass as possible, or while dieting to preserve muscle and aid in fatloss.

2.) Active Recovery(Pre-PCT): This is the period of time DIRECTLY AFTER YOUR CYCLE. DO NOT GO STRAIGHT INTO post cycle therapy! This is why you experience a POST-CYCLE CRASH! Utilizing an ACTIVE RECOVERY PERIOD, will allow the body to BEGIN producing testosterone once again, while still remaining in an ANABOLIC STATE!

PRE-PCT allows the HPTA to begin LH/FSH output, while still receiving additional anabolic support. This is the peroid of time where we utilize a NON-inhibitory steroid while the endogenous testosterone level begins to recover. This occurs PRIOR TO FULL PCT, so that by the time we begin full PCT the HPTA has already began recovering.

Active RECOVERY: The HPTA BEGINS to restore endogenous testosterone production once it detects the body's androgen level beginning to decline(end of cycle).

Therefore, HPTA CAN BEGIN TO RECOVER WHILE STILL IN AN ANABOLIC STATE!


The following drugs can be used during Active Recovery:

Anavar/Proviron= 20mgs/25mgs
Anavar/Masteron= 20mgs/200mgs
Primobolan/Masteron= 200mgs/200mgs
Turinabol/Proviron= 30mgs/25mgs
Turinabol/Masteron= 30mgs/200mgs
Winstrol/Masteron= 25mgs/200mgs
Dianabol/Proviron= 15mgs/25mgs
Dianabol/Masteron= 15mgs/200mgs


3.) Post Cycle Therapy: Now that your HPTA has began recovering, and you have successfully transitioned out of your steroid cycle, it is now time to FULLY RESTORE THE HPTA. Now is the time for your FULL agressive post cycle therapy regimen, including HCG, Aromasin, and Nolvadex if desired.
 
Ross said:
There are three essential stages of a Proper "Steroid Therapy":

1.) The Steroid Cycle: Anabolic steroids are utilized over the course of many weeks, sometimes many months, as the bodybuilder aquires as much muscle mass as possible, or while dieting to preserve muscle and aid in fatloss.

2.) Active Recovery(Pre-PCT): This is the period of time DIRECTLY AFTER YOUR CYCLE. DO NOT GO STRAIGHT INTO post cycle therapy! This is why you experience a POST-CYCLE CRASH! Utilizing an ACTIVE RECOVERY PERIOD, will allow the body to BEGIN producing testosterone once again, while still remaining in an ANABOLIC STATE!

PRE-PCT allows the HPTA to begin LH/FSH output, while still receiving additional anabolic support. This is the peroid of time where we utilize a NON-inhibitory steroid while the endogenous testosterone level begins to recover. This occurs PRIOR TO FULL PCT, so that by the time we begin full PCT the HPTA has already began recovering.

Active RECOVERY: The HPTA BEGINS to restore endogenous testosterone production once it detects the body's androgen level beginning to decline(end of cycle).

Therefore, HPTA CAN BEGIN TO RECOVER WHILE STILL IN AN ANABOLIC STATE!


The following drugs can be used during Active Recovery:

Anavar/Proviron= 20mgs/25mgs
Anavar/Masteron= 20mgs/200mgs
Primobolan/Masteron= 200mgs/200mgs
Turinabol/Proviron= 30mgs/25mgs
Turinabol/Masteron= 30mgs/200mgs
Winstrol/Masteron= 25mgs/200mgs
Dianabol/Proviron= 15mgs/25mgs
Dianabol/Masteron= 15mgs/200mgs


3.) Post Cycle Therapy: Now that your HPTA has began recovering, and you have successfully transitioned out of your steroid cycle, it is now time to FULLY RESTORE THE HPTA. Now is the time for your FULL agressive post cycle therapy regimen, including HCG, Aromasin, and Nolvadex if desired.

Can't you just run HCG DURING cycle instead of the "PRE-PCT?" The way you are describing it this sounds a little easier? Am I not understanding you correctly? For example let's say I'm doing the following cycle:

1-8 - Test Prop 100mg ED
1-6 - Tren Aca 75mg ED
1-6 - 50mg Winstrol ED
3-9 - HCG 500iu's a week
11-14 - 50mg Clomid ED

Wouldn't this be easier for the HPTA to recover seeing that you were keeping up volume for the time you were "on?"
 
I dunno Ross
HCG works despite androgen levels or state of the HPTA.
Testicles can produce testosterone even when HPTA is broken


Ross said:
2.) Active Recovery(Pre-PCT): This is the period of time DIRECTLY AFTER YOUR CYCLE. DO NOT GO STRAIGHT INTO post cycle therapy! This is why you experience a POST-CYCLE CRASH! Utilizing an ACTIVE RECOVERY PERIOD, will allow the body to BEGIN producing testosterone once again, while still remaining in an ANABOLIC STATE!
 
I wish some of you guys would get it through your thick skulls what's actually going on here and what we are all witnessing - haven't you figured it out yet? - are the signs not obvious?

We will all someday look back and wish we had realised earlier on what it was we were all able to be a part of, it has all become clear to me now:

Ross is the second coming of the messiah, rather than waste time helping leppers, prostitutes, the demonically posessed, faunicators etc etc he has instead come to walk among the meatheads and revolutionise the use of God's greatest gift to mankind, that of anabolics!

Come, kneel before him and worship in his majesty!
 
Faizakafez said:
I wish some of you guys would get it through your thick skulls what's actually going on here and what we are all witnessing - haven't you figured it out yet? - are the signs not obvious?

We will all someday look back and wish we had realised earlier on what it was we were all able to be a part of, it has all become clear to me now:

Ross is the second coming of the messiah, rather than waste time helping leppers, prostitutes, the demonically posessed, faunicators etc etc he has instead come to walk among the meatheads and revolutionise the use of God's greatest gift to mankind, that of anabolics!

Come, kneel before him and worship in his majesty!

Amen! :)
 
THE GOOD SUN said:
bro make your point

..I mean are you asking him cuz you didn't understand it?
..or do you disagree with it? ..and if so where? ..& why?

cuz it looks like you're just heckling him

i was asking him a simple question, was that too hard for you to understand?
 
Ross said:
The Ross Protocols:
Beginner, Intermediate, and Advanced Steroid Therapies!




Beginner Cycles




Beginner BULKING Cycle #1

Weeks 1-4: Dianabol, 25mgs ED
Weeks 1-8: Testosterone Enanthate, 250mgs
Weeks 8-12: Oral Winstrol, 50mgs ED
*PCT - post cycle therapy - *



let me rephrase this for some of the more illiterate readers

ross, why do you recommend waiting 4 weeks from your last shot of testosterone to start pct in this cycle?​
 
it does make sense but is there science to back it uP. Some would argue that evn when suppressed your HPTA does not do what it is supposed to do? So "bridging" with AAS is a waste of tme and money.

I however think is a great theroy. I have alwyas thought this even in the days when ross was here before. I just dont know at what dose and which drugs still allow some natural production of test to kick start the HPTA.


If this theroy is true why not use them year round since the only supress and not shut down? as ot be anabolic year round.
 
xrsist said:
let me rephrase this for some of the more illiterate readers

ross, why do you recommend waiting 4 weeks from your last shot of testosterone to start pct in this cycle?

"illiterate readers" ..wow that's quite a platform you've placed yourself on ..you know you really shouldn't talk down to people even if they truely were illiterate ..it's very unbecoming and it makes you look like a pompous ass


and by the way, oh literate one ..he answered your question several posts ago in #18


..have a great day!! :)
 
Post 18 is totally inaccurate, and I would not call it an answer to anything. More like something he needs to study himself instead...

THE GOOD SUN said:
"illiterate readers" ..wow that's quite a platform you've placed yourself on ..you know you really shouldn't talk down to people even if they truely were illiterate ..it's very unbecoming and it makes you look like a pompous ass


and by the way, oh literate one ..he answered your question several posts ago in #18


..have a great day!! :)
 
gjohnson5 said:
Post 18 is totally inaccurate, and I would not call it an answer to anything. More like something he needs to study himself instead...

with all due respect G, (..and I do respect you) ..it was Ross's answer to his question ..now weather Ross's answer is acurate or founded is a different matter altogether


let's debate it and shread it in proper fashion
 
THE GOOD SUN said:
with all due respect G, (..and I do respect you) ..it was Ross's answer to his question ..now weather Ross's answer is acurate or founded is a different matter altogether


let's debate it and shread it in proper fashion


How was xrsist out of line? Did you geet a PM from someone saying h has a prob with Ross and now when he posts in his thread you think he i atacking Ross? He just asked a question bro. Back up off Xrsist bit. He is a good bro. Someone that will still be here for many years to come. Sponsers come and go.

I actualy like ross. He argues in a nice way. Never got personal like AR and a few others do/did
 
THE GOOD SUN said:
"illiterate readers" ..wow that's quite a platform you've placed yourself on ..you know you really shouldn't talk down to people even if they truely were illiterate ..it's very unbecoming and it makes you look like a pompous ass


and by the way, oh literate one ..he answered your question several posts ago in #18


..have a great day!! :)

post #18 was directed towards Singleton's question "what is pre pct?" in post #16
 
Ross said:
There are three essential stages of a Proper "Steroid Therapy":

1.) The Steroid Cycle: Anabolic steroids are utilized over the course of many weeks, sometimes many months, as the bodybuilder aquires as much muscle mass as possible, or while dieting to preserve muscle and aid in fatloss.

2.) Active Recovery(Pre-PCT): This is the period of time DIRECTLY AFTER YOUR CYCLE. DO NOT GO STRAIGHT INTO post cycle therapy! This is why you experience a POST-CYCLE CRASH! Utilizing an ACTIVE RECOVERY PERIOD, will allow the body to BEGIN producing testosterone once again, while still remaining in an ANABOLIC STATE!

PRE-PCT allows the HPTA to begin LH/FSH output, while still receiving additional anabolic support. This is the peroid of time where we utilize a NON-inhibitory steroid while the endogenous testosterone level begins to recover. This occurs PRIOR TO FULL PCT, so that by the time we begin full PCT the HPTA has already began recovering.

Active RECOVERY: The HPTA BEGINS to restore endogenous testosterone production once it detects the body's androgen level beginning to decline(end of cycle).

Therefore, HPTA CAN BEGIN TO RECOVER WHILE STILL IN AN ANABOLIC STATE!


The following drugs can be used during Active Recovery:

Anavar/Proviron= 20mgs/25mgs
Anavar/Masteron= 20mgs/200mgs
Primobolan/Masteron= 200mgs/200mgs
Turinabol/Proviron= 30mgs/25mgs
Turinabol/Masteron= 30mgs/200mgs
Winstrol/Masteron= 25mgs/200mgs
Dianabol/Proviron= 15mgs/25mgs
Dianabol/Masteron= 15mgs/200mgs


3.) Post Cycle Therapy: Now that your HPTA has began recovering, and you have successfully transitioned out of your steroid cycle, it is now time to FULLY RESTORE THE HPTA. Now is the time for your FULL agressive post cycle therapy regimen, including HCG, Aromasin, and Nolvadex if desired.

im guessing you have studies to back these claims up?
 
THE GOOD SUN said:
with all due respect G, (..and I do respect you) ..it was Ross's answer to his question ..now weather Ross's answer is acurate or founded is a different matter altogether


let's debate it and shread it in proper fashion

Xrsist posed a legit question and was not just doing it to attack Ross.

Since we're being contemplative, are you Ross's lawyer? Cause I see no reason why Ross can't defend himself if he feel liek he was being attacked.

I don't know you and have nothing against you. But when someone attacks a good bro like Xrsist, an elite mentor for more than one good reason, then I feel disturbed. Calm down man. No harm done.
 
MichaelScott said:
good question xrsi i was under the assumption 2 weeks was sufficient to wait to do pct

for long esters yes. i personally like to use only a week for something like test prop though.
 
Ross said:
If someone has a question, please ask now. :)
can u elaborate on post 18? i also have learned this to be wrong .. but i am opened minded and would like to hear more .. maybe i missed something along the way
 
Ross said:
If someone has a question, please ask now. :)

Ross said:
There are three essential stages of a Proper "Steroid Therapy":

1.) The Steroid Cycle: Anabolic steroids are utilized over the course of many weeks, sometimes many months, as the bodybuilder aquires as much muscle mass as possible, or while dieting to preserve muscle and aid in fatloss.

2.) Active Recovery(Pre-PCT): This is the period of time DIRECTLY AFTER YOUR CYCLE. DO NOT GO STRAIGHT INTO post cycle therapy! This is why you experience a POST-CYCLE CRASH! Utilizing an ACTIVE RECOVERY PERIOD, will allow the body to BEGIN producing testosterone once again, while still remaining in an ANABOLIC STATE!

PRE-PCT allows the HPTA to begin LH/FSH output, while still receiving additional anabolic support. This is the peroid of time where we utilize a NON-inhibitory steroid while the endogenous testosterone level begins to recover. This occurs PRIOR TO FULL PCT, so that by the time we begin full PCT the HPTA has already began recovering.

Active RECOVERY: The HPTA BEGINS to restore endogenous testosterone production once it detects the body's androgen level beginning to decline(end of cycle).

Therefore, HPTA CAN BEGIN TO RECOVER WHILE STILL IN AN ANABOLIC STATE!


The following drugs can be used during Active Recovery:

Anavar/Proviron= 20mgs/25mgs
Anavar/Masteron= 20mgs/200mgs
Primobolan/Masteron= 200mgs/200mgs
Turinabol/Proviron= 30mgs/25mgs
Turinabol/Masteron= 30mgs/200mgs
Winstrol/Masteron= 25mgs/200mgs
Dianabol/Proviron= 15mgs/25mgs
Dianabol/Masteron= 15mgs/200mgs


3.) Post Cycle Therapy: Now that your HPTA has began recovering, and you have successfully transitioned out of your steroid cycle, it is now time to FULLY RESTORE THE HPTA. Now is the time for your FULL agressive post cycle therapy regimen, including HCG, Aromasin, and Nolvadex if desired.

im guessing you have studies to back these claims up ross? but seeing this is the 2nd time iv had to ask this i guess not
 
xrsist said:
im guessing you have studies to back these claims up ross? but seeing this is the 2nd time iv had to ask this i guess not

I would consider giving him a break. Just because he posts on the internet doesn't mean that he devotes all of his time to it. I should have been in bed 15 minutes ago, but other things kept me from it...woman in my shower and on my bedroom computer keeping me awake for the last hour.

I'm curious about the 4 week PCT issue myself, but I don't expect him to be on the board posting away like a meth-crazed jackrabbit 24/7. I hope people don't expect me to jump on a thread with a question within an hour of someone asking it. I have a non-digital life too.
 
xrsist said:
im guessing you have studies to back these claims up ross? but seeing this is the 2nd time iv had to ask this i guess not

Studies for WHAT CLAIMS?
 
Ross said:
Studies for WHAT CLAIMS?

your claims that "There are three essential stages of a Proper "Steroid Therapy"

what happened to waiting for the esters to near clear then starting clomid/nolva? works for me and many many others on this board and around the world, so how is this better? and if it is i guess you have studies to back it up?

or is this just another one of your theories that you made up?
 
xrsist said:
your claims that "There are three essential stages of a Proper "Steroid Therapy"

what happened to waiting for the esters to near clear then starting clomid/nolva? works for me and many many others on this board and around the world, so how is this better? and if it is i guess you have studies to back it up?

or is this just another one of your theories that you made up?

Ok, let's adress this issue;

The problem with TRADITIONAL cycles is that your body experiences a POST CYCLE CRASH.

Even with the most agressive PCT protocol including HCG/Aromasin/Nolvadex/Clomid will NOT prevent this dreaded POST CYCLE CRASH that everyone experiences when coming OFF of cycle.

I have ELIMINATED this POST CYCLE CRASH with my invention of the PRE-PCT(Active Recovery).

Using my Pre-PCT procotol, you will not only maintain ALL OF YOUR GAINS, you will experiece a faster, easier and more effective PCT.
 
Chapter 2

**The STANDARD Cycle**



A PERFECT CYCLE CONSISTS OF *BOTH*, SLOW AND FAST-ACTING STEROIDS!

In most cases, a LONG-esterfied injectable steroid such as Testosterone Enanthate would function as the BASE of the cycle, providing slow but consistent gains throughout the entire cycle's duration.

A SHORT-acting steroid is used in either the BEGINNING of a cycle or at the END of a cycle. Typically, Dianabol and Anadrol are used at the beginning of a cycle to provide STRENGTH and MASS gains BEFORE the base(and/or secondary injectable) "KICK IN". A FAST-ACTING stroid such as Anavar or Winstrol is used at the END of a cycle and RIGHT UP UNTIL post cycle therapy, while the LONG-acting steroid SLOWLY exits the system.


An optimal cycle contains several components:


1.) A Base: This is the usually the most powerful compound in the stack, and it is typically ran throughout the entire duration of the cycle. Most individuals will choose Testosterone for a base, but for those uncomfortable using testosterone; Trenbolone, Equipoise, Masteron, and even Primobolan can be used instead. In your case, the base will be testosterone Enanthate.


2.) The JUMPSTARTER: This compound must be FAST-ACTING, so as to generate muscle and strength gains BEFORE YOUR BASE AND YOUR ASSISTANT KICK IN. Jumpstarting usually applies to BULKING cycles, but they can be used effectively in CUTTING cycles as well. Dianabol and Anadrol are the most popular steroids for JUMPSTARTING a cycle, because they both induce incredible strength and mass in a very short period of time; but it important to note that there are MANY other drugs that can be used for this purpose that are usually overlooked. Halotestin at 30-40mgs will provide ENORMOUS strength at the beginning of your cycle, making it GREAT to jumpstart BULKING cycles AND CUTTING cycles. Injectable Winstrol can ALSO be used to jumpstart BULKING CYCLES and CUTTING CYCLES. The Oral is too weak to act as an effective JUMPSTARTER. I would say the same for Anavar and Turinabol. Trenbolone Acetate and Testosterone Propionate(or suspension) are also very popular choices used to jumpstart BULKING cycles. You will be using Dianabol as your JUMPSTARTER.


3.) The FINISHER: A FAST-acting steroid MUST BE UTILIZED at the end of your cycle's duration! You MUST remain ANABOLIC right up until post cycle therapy! If you FAIL to use a fast-acting steroid such as Winstrol or Oxandrolone during your FINAL weeks while your BASE and your ASSISTANT leave your system, you will LOSE GAINS BEFORE YOU EVEN BEGIN post cycle therapy. This is one of the BIGGEST mistakes people make. Test E will not leave your system for at LEAST 3 weeks after your FINAL SHOT. Therefore, you MUST remain anabolic during these 3 weeks when your adrogen levels PLUMMET! You will be using Winstrol Inject as your Finisher.


Failure to uitlize ANY of the 3 ESSENTIAL COMPONENTS will result in a cycle that is LESS THAN OPTIMAL.*

For an intermediate or advanced user, a SECONDARY ANABOLIC called the "assistant" should be added for OPTIMAL results.

*) The Assistant: This compound is ran alongside the BASE for the majority of the cycle, providing a synergistic effect throughout it's duration. Most people will choose either Deca or Equipoise, usually using testosterone as the base. Trenbolone, Masteron, and Primobolan also make great Assistants. You will be using Deca as your Assiatant.

Weeks 1-6: Dianabol, 30mgs ED
Weeks 1-10: Test E, 500mgs
Weeks 1-10: Deca, 400mg
Weeks 10-14: Winstrol Inject, 75mgs ED



The Standard Cycle is designed for OPTIMUM anabolism, utilizing precise strategies in order to gain and sustain the most muscle possible!
 
....wow this is like mom and dads house. lol So if I'm doing dbol at the beginging 5 of 8 weeks now of my cycle of about 12 weeks, i should stop taking it after 8 weeks, wait till I take my last shot of test e/ EQ and then start taking it again for 4 weeks and then start clomid? Also this is my first cycle,...but money aint an issue. So can i just take an ass load of clomid? For a longer time frame i mean.
 
xrsist said:
how can you say everyone? some people maybe but that would be a minority, but myself and many many others have not crashed using the traditional pct regime which has been used for years.

edit: so in other words you dont have studies done to show this exceeds a traditional pct regime??

So you are saying that you maintain ALL of your gains using just an AI and some SERMS??


NOT ALL ANDROGENS CAUSE SHUTDOWN*

"Shutdown", is defined by a COMPLETE inhibition of the Pituitary/Testes, resulting in a TOTAL cessation of endogenous androgen production.

SOME androgens will only SUPPRESS endogenous androgen production, resulting in a DECREASED testosterone level, but not a complete shutdown. (Tbol, Var, Wistrol, EQ, Dianabol, masteron, proviron, halo, primo)

Very Androgenic/Progestenic/Estrogenic steroids(Tren, Deca, Drol, Test) cause a COMPLETE shutdown of endogenous hormone production.

The distinction between SUPRESSION and SHUTDOWN is utterly important, as steroids that cause LESS supression of endogenous hormones will allow for greater retention of gains upon ending the cycle, and a quicker, easier PCT.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Horm Metab Res. 1984 Sep;16(9):492-7.Related Articles, Links

Effect of non aromatizable androgens on LHRH and TRH responses in primary testicular failure.

Spitz IM, Margalioth EJ, Yeger Y, Livshin Y, Zylber-Haran E, Shilo S.

We have assessed the gonadotropin, TSH and PRL responses to the non aromatizable androgens, mesterolone and fluoxymestrone, in 27 patients with primary testicular failure. All patients were given a bolus of LHRH (100 micrograms) and TRH (200 micrograms) at zero time. Nine subjects received a further bolus of TRH at 30 mins. The latter were then given mesterolone 150 mg daily for 6 weeks. The remaining subjects received fluoxymesterone 5 mg daily for 4 weeks and 10 mg daily for 2 weeks. On the last day of the androgen administration, the subjects were re-challenged with LHRH and TRH according to the identical protocol. When compared to controls, the patients had normal circulating levels of testosterone, estradiol, PRL and thyroid hormones. However, basal LH, FSH and TSH levels, as well as gonadotropin responses to LHRH and TSH and PRL responses to TRH, were increased. Mesterolone administration produced no changes in steroids, thyroid hormones, gonadotropins nor PRL. There was, however, a reduction in the integrated and incremental TSH secretion after TRH. Fluoxymesterone administration was accompanied by a reduction in thyroid binding globulin (with associated decreases in T3 and increases in T3 resin uptake). The free T4 index was unaltered, which implies that thyroid function was unchanged. In addition, during fluoxymesterone administration, there was a reduction in testosterone, gonadotropins and LH response to LHRH. Basal TSH did not vary, but there was a reduction in the peak and integrated TSH response to TRH. PRL levels were unaltered during fluoxymesterone treatment.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS
 
xrsist said:
let me rephrase this for some of the more illiterate readers

ross, why do you recommend waiting 4 weeks from your last shot of testosterone to start pct in this cycle?

X please stop the uncivil belligerence .

and the same applies to everyone else.

I bulk deleted a string of posts once the bullshit started flying. If anyone feels their post shouldnt have been deleted and was a valid civil question or refutation re-post it.

we're determined to maintain a civil mature atmosphere here on the anabolics board. members are returning because the flame wars have ended.

let's get back to positive helping mode, and get with the program
 
Mavafanculo said:
X please stop the uncivil belligerence .

and the same applies to everyone else.

I bulk deleted a string of posts once the bullshit started flying. If anyone feels their post shouldnt have been deleted and was a valid civil question or refutation re-post it.

we're determined to maintain a civil mature atmosphere here on the anabolics board. members are returning because the flame wars have ended.

let's get back to positive helping mode, and get with the program

I am with Mava on this one, I think that presenting arguments and discussing things are great, but attacking the individual is not an argument and it is faulty logic.

People ususally do this when they can't explain their point.
 
Ross said:
So you are saying that you maintain ALL of your gains using just an AI and some SERMS??


NOT ALL ANDROGENS CAUSE SHUTDOWN*

"Shutdown", is defined by a COMPLETE inhibition of the Pituitary/Testes, resulting in a TOTAL cessation of endogenous androgen production.

SOME androgens will only SUPPRESS endogenous androgen production, resulting in a DECREASED testosterone level, but not a complete shutdown. (Tbol, Var, Wistrol, EQ, Dianabol, masteron, proviron, halo, primo)

Very Androgenic/Progestenic/Estrogenic steroids(Tren, Deca, Drol, Test) cause a COMPLETE shutdown of endogenous hormone production.

The distinction between SUPRESSION and SHUTDOWN is utterly important, as steroids that cause LESS supression of endogenous hormones will allow for greater retention of gains upon ending the cycle, and a quicker, easier PCT.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Horm Metab Res. 1984 Sep;16(9):492-7.Related Articles, Links

Effect of non aromatizable androgens on LHRH and TRH responses in primary testicular failure.

Spitz IM, Margalioth EJ, Yeger Y, Livshin Y, Zylber-Haran E, Shilo S.

We have assessed the gonadotropin, TSH and PRL responses to the non aromatizable androgens, mesterolone and fluoxymestrone, in 27 patients with primary testicular failure.


All patients were given a bolus of LHRH (100 micrograms) and TRH (200 micrograms) at zero time. Nine subjects received a further bolus of TRH at 30 mins. The latter were then given mesterolone 150 mg daily for 6 weeks. The remaining subjects received fluoxymesterone 5 mg daily for 4 weeks and 10 mg daily for 2 weeks. On the last day of the androgen administration, the subjects were re-challenged with LHRH and TRH according to the identical protocol. When compared to controls, the patients had normal circulating levels of testosterone, estradiol, PRL and thyroid hormones. However, basal LH, FSH and TSH levels, as well as gonadotropin responses to LHRH and TSH and PRL responses to TRH, were increased. Mesterolone administration produced no changes in steroids, thyroid hormones, gonadotropins nor PRL. There was, however, a reduction in the integrated and incremental TSH secretion after TRH. Fluoxymesterone administration was accompanied by a reduction in thyroid binding globulin (with associated decreases in T3 and increases in T3 resin uptake). The free T4 index was unaltered, which implies that thyroid function was unchanged. In addition, during fluoxymesterone administration, there was a reduction in testosterone, gonadotropins and LH response to LHRH. Basal TSH did not vary, but there was a reduction in the peak and integrated TSH response to TRH. PRL levels were unaltered during fluoxymesterone treatment.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS

I still don't get how this paper is evidence of what you say.

The subjects were already in primary testicular failure.

They were given LH to get their testicles going again, and it says that they still had suppressed testosterone levels.

It is demonstrating that the administration of steroids, one I have never heard of any of the lads using, I forget its common name now, does suppress the HPTA.



It shows that it is supppressing testosterone, even with giving them a leutenising hormone releasing factor/hormone. That in itself is meant to get test going again. They did this at the beginning and the end of this study.


Also, with regard to endocrinology research, this paper is really really old.
 
Tatyana said:
I am with Mava on this one, I think that presenting arguments and discussing things are great, but attacking the individual is not an argument and it is faulty logic.

People ususally do this when they can't explain their point.

do you mind telling me which point i couldnt explain to "the good sun" tatyana?

i asked a simple question to ROSS, not anyone else
 
xrsist said:
do you mind telling me which point i couldnt explain to "the good sun" tatyana?

i asked a simple question to ROSS, not anyone else

I haven't read the entire thread yet.

I will have a look later and see if I can get what everyone is saying
 
xrsist said:
do you mind telling me which point i couldnt explain to "the good sun" tatyana?

i asked a simple question to ROSS, not anyone else
Simple questions don't usually involve labeling someone "illiterate."

Instead of saying (in effect) "You're full of crap," try saying "I don't understand this part."
  • You don't embarrass yourself when it turns out you're wrong
  • You might actually learn something
  • If it turns out you were right and the other guy was wrong (it could happen...) he's more likely to admit it.
It's called being "civil." It's called "being a grownup."
 
Ross claims to have started endogenous testosterone whilst using "inhibitive" compounds AFTER compounds that cause complete shutdown have been used.

Most disagree with this statement, I know of people who have tried it and it doesnt work (with BW).

There are also no stuides to back this claim that I have seen or heard of.

Its a great idea, but there isnt much, if anything, to back it up.
 
Faizakafez said:
No matter what the body will not produce more gains even when swapping and mixing compounds,

I would like to know more about this.

There are only two isoforms of the testosterone receptor, and really, when you see the structure of testosterone (and oestrogen, progesterone and all their various forms), they are not that different, but the subtle differences do make a BIG difference.

Obviously there is a differential binding capacity with testosterone and dihydrotestosterone, and from what I have read, the modifications on steroids is basically adding an extra long chain to the 5-ring molecule so it will either

1. Not be cleared from the body as rapidly

2. Stay in the receptor site longer????

So my question is, really, is testosterone just testosterone?



As soon as your put androgens in the blood stream the body attempts to reach homeostatis and slows your gains down even if your pumping loads in or swapping compounds,

Very true, your receptor sites will become saturated quite quickly, and once they are full, adding more will not do anything.

Sort of like trying to squeeze 20 eggs into a standard dozen egg box.

There is some suggestion that there may be some other mechanism of action at supraphysiological doses, but I haven't found anything solid about this yet.


If this was true we would all be doing this and be 500lbs+, come on for gods sake,

I haven't got the paper, but from what I can remember reading it, people can have a very different response to steroids, up to 4x a different response, probably due to a different number or polymorphisms (natural variations) on the androgen receptors.



The body grows very fast at the begining of any cycle depending on compounds then it reacts to the growth by shutting it down, staying on for what ever reason results in more sides,

Has anyone got a link/paper about the differential binding of various exogenous steroids?
 
Tatyana said:
Has anyone got a link/paper about the differential binding of various exogenous steroids?

just a point on your comments - contrary to what was bro-ology conventional wisdom, androgen receptors do NOT downregulate in the presence of superphysiological levels of exo steroids, they actually UPregulate to accomodate - (I dont have the study links)
 
Ross said:
There are three essential stages of a Proper "Steroid Therapy":

1.) The Steroid Cycle: Anabolic steroids are utilized over the course of many weeks, sometimes many months, as the bodybuilder aquires as much muscle mass as possible, or while dieting to preserve muscle and aid in fatloss.

You mention homeostatic mechanisms, but there is also thought to be a 'set bodyweight' homeostatic mechanism, so putting on as much mass doesn't always work.

If it did, then there would not be so many lads posting, how do I keep my gains.




2.) Active Recovery(Pre-PCT): This is the period of time DIRECTLY AFTER YOUR CYCLE. DO NOT GO STRAIGHT INTO post cycle therapy! This is why you experience a POST-CYCLE CRASH! Utilizing an ACTIVE RECOVERY PERIOD, will allow the body to BEGIN producing testosterone once again, while still remaining in an ANABOLIC STATE!

PRE-PCT allows the HPTA to begin LH/FSH output, while still receiving additional anabolic support. This is the peroid of time where we utilize a NON-inhibitory steroid while the endogenous testosterone level begins to recover. This occurs PRIOR TO FULL PCT, so that by the time we begin full PCT the HPTA has already began recovering.

Active RECOVERY: The HPTA BEGINS to restore endogenous testosterone production once it detects the body's androgen level beginning to decline(end of cycle).

Therefore, HPTA CAN BEGIN TO RECOVER WHILE STILL IN AN ANABOLIC STATE!


The following drugs can be used during Active Recovery:

Anavar/Proviron= 20mgs/25mgs
Anavar/Masteron= 20mgs/200mgs
Primobolan/Masteron= 200mgs/200mgs
Turinabol/Proviron= 30mgs/25mgs
Turinabol/Masteron= 30mgs/200mgs
Winstrol/Masteron= 25mgs/200mgs
Dianabol/Proviron= 15mgs/25mgs
Dianabol/Masteron= 15mgs/200mgs


3.) Post Cycle Therapy: Now that your HPTA has began recovering, and you have successfully transitioned out of your steroid cycle, it is now time to FULLY RESTORE THE HPTA. Now is the time for your FULL agressive post cycle therapy regimen, including HCG, Aromasin, and Nolvadex if desired.

I found this and thought this was interesting:

http://www.hptaxis.com/technology_aih.htm


Hypogonadism is a disturbance of HPTA homeostasis. Hypogonadism is inadequate gonadal function, as manifested by deficiencies in spermatogenesis and/or the secretion of testosterone. The definitions of hypogonadism are consistent by using either reproductive capacity, infertility, and/or biochemically by testosterone and luteinizing hormone levels. The confirmation of the state of hypogonadism is exhibited either by reproductive or biochemical parameters.

Laboratory studies are the gateway to a proper diagnosis. The laboratory performing the assay defines the normal reference range for serum sex hormones. Similarly, infertility definitions encompass spermatozoa density, number, and quality. Testosterone is the initial screening laboratory study. Gonadotropins, luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), classify disorder. A total testosterone value <300-ng/dL (10.4-nmol/L) suggests hypogonadism while a total testosterone value <200-ng/dL is highly correlative of hypogonadism.

In primary hypogonadism, the defect is either in the testicles, absent or decreased spermatogenesis and/or the secretion of testosterone with elevated gonadotropin levels. In secondary hypogonadism (hypogonadotropic hypogonadism), the centers in the brain that control the gonads (hypothalamus and pituitary) do not function properly, resulting in absent or decreased spermatogenesis and/or the secretion of testosterone resulting from a decrease in follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) and/or luteinizing hormone (LH), respectively.

Hypogonadism is a disease with potentially serious consequences that include but are not limited to adverse body composition changes (decrease muscle mass and increased adiposity), decreased muscle strength, bone loss, increase in cardiovascular risk, adverse psychological effects (depression, low self esteem, guilt, increased stress, and anhedonia), sexual dysfunction (decreased libido, decreased spontaneous erections, decreased ejaculate, erection dysfunction, decreased sexual fantasies, and anorgasmia), decreased cognitive testing, sleep disturbances, infertility, and constitutional symptoms (general fatigue, agitation/motor dyskinesia, and decreased appetite).

Androgen administration or use of GnRH analogues results in a form of induced hypogonadism, functional hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. Androgen, nonsteroidal, administration is currently in the research and investigational stages. These studies indicate that their clinical use will also result in androgen-induced hypogonadism after cessation by their effects on gonadotropin levels.

Androgen induced hypogonadism (AIH) is the functional incompetence of the testes with subnormal or impaired production of testosterone or spermatozoa due to administration of androgens or anabolic steroids. AIH results from an abnormality in the normal functioning of the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis (HPTA), from a negative feedback inhibition of one of the hormone secreting glands, causing a cascading unbalance in the rest of the axis. To date, all compounds classified as androgens whether prescribed clinically or from illicit use cause a negative feedback inhibition of the hypothalamic pituitary testicular axis, suppress endogenous gonadotropin secretion, and as a consequence serum testosterone.

Case controlled and observational studies from licit and illicit anabolic/androgen steroid (AAS) administration demonstrate a hypogonadal state after their cessation. AAS, including testosterone, licit and illicit, administration induce a state of hypogonadism that continues after their cessation. This state is present during their administration but typically becomes symptomatic or manifest after AAS cessation.

For over fifty years, published literature demonstrates hypogonadism occurring after AAS cessation (AIH). AIH occurs in one-hundred percent of individuals upon AAS cessation. There is not a single study within the peer-reviewed literature demonstrating an immediate return of HPTA homeostasis upon AAS cessation. AAS, licit and illicit, induce a state of hypogonadism that continues after their cessation. The only variable is the duration and severity of AIH.

Countless publications study the use of testosterone as a male contraceptive agent. The simplistic reason for this is that exogenous administration will cause HPTA suppression, a decrease of sex hormones that includes endogenous testosterone production and the gonadotropins, both follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) and/or luteinizing hormone (LH).

The absence of FSH leads to infertility, contraception, or diminished spermatogenesis. This is an induced state of hypogonadism, infertility. The absent or decreased testicular testosterone production is replaced by its external administration. The individual does not experience the adverse effects of hypogonadism secondary to decreased serum testosterone because of exogenous testosterone administration. This does not take away from the fact that the patient is in a state of induced hypogonadism for the express purpose of contraception.

Birth control studies with testosterone administration in physiological as well as subphysiological doses demonstrate HPTA suppression. Studies conducted by World Health Organization have demonstrated complete recovery of the hypothalamic pituitary testicular axis (HPTA) after administration of supraphysiologic doses of testosterone for a year. The "complete recovery" referred to is spermatogenesis and not serum testosterone. The median time to recovery to the subject’s own geometric mean baseline sperm concentration is a range of 4.0-13.9 months. Thus, the data from the study affirm that the return of normal spermatogenesis may take over a year.


Male contraception studies with 19-nortestosterone, nandrolone, demonstrate the continued suppression of serum testosterone from control levels for greater than 15 weeks after nandrolone cessation. Other data available from the development of nandrolone decanoate for male contraception indicate that reversal of effects can take more than twelve months after discontinuation of the drugs.

The salient point is that after AAS cessation there is a period of recovery for HPTA normalization of gonadotropins (FSH and LH) and sex hormones (testosterone). This period is of an unknown duration and severity. This period of hypogonadism exposes the individual to the signs and symptoms of hypogonadism, specifically both adverse body composition changes and/or decreased muscle strength. Studies demonstrate the improvements in body composition obtained during AAS administration, are lost after AAS cessation.
 
Mavafanculo said:
just a point on your comments - contrary to what was bro-ology conventional wisdom, androgen receptors do NOT downregulate in the presence of superphysiological levels of exo steroids, they actually UPregulate to accomodate - (I dont have the study links)

They do in rats, but rats are not peeps. :)

Not as easy to dose up a bunch of lads and then dissect them.

What I was asking for if anyone has any info on the affinity of various types of steroids for testosterone receptors.

It is all about the pharmocodynamics.
 
That's the issue as with most steroid use.
Who is going to fund a study to allow users to 'abuse" steriods to show androgen upgregulation??? However there is plenty of politics in the USA that will say androgen receptors will downregulate without actually demonstrating the steroid "abuse"

So it's premature to say androgen receptors downregulate without posting a study showing high dose steroid use and also showing the associated downregulation

Anyway most of the information dealing with affinity of drugs to androgen receptors is generally in relation to testosterone

Tatyana said:
They do in rats, but rats are not peeps. :)

Not as easy to dose up a bunch of lads and then dissect them.

What I was asking for if anyone has any info on the affinity of various types of steroids for testosterone receptors.

It is all about the pharmocodynamics.
 
Tatyana said:
They do in rats, but rats are not peeps. :)

Not as easy to dose up a bunch of lads and then dissect them.

What I was asking for if anyone has any info on the affinity of various types of steroids for testosterone receptors.

It is all about the pharmocodynamics.

there were a few human studies, but nothing comprehensive

this one apparantly shows AR upregulation short term with var, but didnt test long term
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1999 Aug;84(8):2705-11.

this one shows doubling of AR receptors over a month but then an eventual return to baseline
Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2002 Mar;282(3):E601-7

I remember there were more, but I'd have to dig
 
Unfortunately where is the profit potential in telling people they can juice for extended periods of time and they bodies will actually adjust to it? Especially when the drugs are illegal?

God , I wanna move to the UK...

Mavafanculo said:
there were a few human studies, but nothing comprehensive

this one apparantly shows AR upregulation short term with var, but didnt test long term
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1999 Aug;84(8):2705-11.

this one shows doubling of AR receptors over a month but then an eventual return to baseline
Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2002 Mar;282(3):E601-7

I remember there were more, but I'd have to dig
 
Also once you are completly shut down and you on a drug that is suppressive I dont see how it would help kick start without something LIKE HCG, or clomid or something help kickstart your natty test levels.


I started thinking about this today. If you are using a longer ester tht will clear in about 3-4 weeks roughly and you start this drug that only suppresses then what kcik starts the HPTA? You would ned something else in the pre PCT to kick start right?

While the ester is still clearing you system are you not still anabolic? I dont start losing gains until about 3-4 weeks after last shot. In fact I am still making some gains. Sp while it is still clearing you are still shut down. Taking primo, dbol and the others you suggest will only prolong your recovery possibly and or waste your money becuase it is doing nothing. Alls you are dong is adding more hormones to your body when you are trying to restart the HPTA.

Why not just do a shot or two or three of HCG during your cycle, Right after or a week or so after your last shot and once again when you are starting PCT using Sustain or clomid or whatever protocol works well for you?
 
Pat_McCrotch said:
Also once you are completly shut down and you on a drug that is suppressive I dont see how it would help kick start without something LIKE HCG, or clomid or something help kickstart your natty test levels.


I started thinking about this today. If you are using a longer ester tht will clear in about 3-4 weeks roughly and you start this drug that only suppresses then what kcik starts the HPTA? You would ned something else in the pre PCT to kick start right?

While the ester is still clearing you system are you not still anabolic? I dont start losing gains until about 3-4 weeks after last shot. In fact I am still making some gains. Sp while it is still clearing you are still shut down. Taking primo, dbol and the others you suggest will only prolong your recovery possibly and or waste your money becuase it is doing nothing. Alls you are dong is adding more hormones to your body when you are trying to restart the HPTA.

Why not just do a shot or two or three of HCG during your cycle, Right after or a week or so after your last shot and once again when you are starting PCT using Sustain or clomid or whatever protocol works well for you?

First of all, you are confusing THE "FINISHER" with "Pre-PCT(Active Recovery). Please re-read both articles.

The HPTA begins recovering on it's own(once androgen/estrogen levels have sufficiently declined), but you are correct in assuming that the addition of HCG(or AndroGenerator!) during this Pre-PCT would be highly beneficial. I advise people to use AndroGenerator during PRE-PCT, but if you won't believe me, just start your PCT while on PRE-PCT and continue to run your PCT for an additional 6-10 weeks thereafter.
 
Ross said:
First of all, you are confusing THE "FINISHER" with "Pre-PCT(Active Recovery). Please re-read both articles.

The HPTA begins recovering on it's own, but you are correct in assuming that the addition of HCG(or AndroGenerator!) during this Pre-PCT would be highly beneficial. I advise people to use AndroGenerator during PRE-PCT, but if you won't believe me, just start your PCT while on PRE-PCT and continue to run your PCT for an additional 6-10 weeks thereafter.

You have some interesting ideas about steroids that are generating some interesting and sometimes heated debates.

So thanks for answering my question before about Uni, I now know you went.

My question is, what did you study?

My concern is that all of these recommendations are being made when:

1. You are young and have only been juicing for 4-5 years, so yes you have some experience, but not as much as a lot of the other lads on the board.

2. Do you have any formal qualifications in any of the fields related to human biology or medical studies? Endocrinology?


Experience does count for a lot, however, so does education.

Steroids are some of the most powerful drugs know to humans, and really, when handing out advice, you really are messing with the bit of men that they consider defines them the most, their bollux and their brains.
 
Tatyana said:
You have some interesting ideas about steroids that are generating some interesting and sometimes heated debates.

So thanks for answering my question before about Uni, I now know you went.

My question is, what did you study?

My concern is that all of these recommendations are being made when:

1. You are young and have only been juicing for 4-5 years, so yes you have some experience, but not as much as a lot of the other lads on the board.

2. Do you have any formal qualifications in any of the fields related to human biology or medical studies? Endocrinology?


Experience does count for a lot, however, so does education.

Steroids are some of the most powerful drugs know to humans, and really, when handing out advice, you really are messing with the bit of men that they consider defines them the most, their bollux and their brains.



couldnt have said it better....youre great for this board tat
 
Tatyana said:
I found this and thought this was interesting:

http://www.hptaxis.com/technology_aih.htm


Hypogonadism is a disturbance of HPTA homeostasis. Hypogonadism is inadequate gonadal function, as manifested by deficiencies in spermatogenesis and/or the secretion of testosterone. The definitions of hypogonadism are consistent by using either reproductive capacity, infertility, and/or biochemically by testosterone and luteinizing hormone levels. The confirmation of the state of hypogonadism is exhibited either by reproductive or biochemical parameters.

Laboratory studies are the gateway to a proper diagnosis. The laboratory performing the assay defines the normal reference range for serum sex hormones. Similarly, infertility definitions encompass spermatozoa density, number, and quality. Testosterone is the initial screening laboratory study. Gonadotropins, luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), classify disorder. A total testosterone value <300-ng/dL (10.4-nmol/L) suggests hypogonadism while a total testosterone value <200-ng/dL is highly correlative of hypogonadism.

In primary hypogonadism, the defect is either in the testicles, absent or decreased spermatogenesis and/or the secretion of testosterone with elevated gonadotropin levels. In secondary hypogonadism (hypogonadotropic hypogonadism), the centers in the brain that control the gonads (hypothalamus and pituitary) do not function properly, resulting in absent or decreased spermatogenesis and/or the secretion of testosterone resulting from a decrease in follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) and/or luteinizing hormone (LH), respectively.

Hypogonadism is a disease with potentially serious consequences that include but are not limited to adverse body composition changes (decrease muscle mass and increased adiposity), decreased muscle strength, bone loss, increase in cardiovascular risk, adverse psychological effects (depression, low self esteem, guilt, increased stress, and anhedonia), sexual dysfunction (decreased libido, decreased spontaneous erections, decreased ejaculate, erection dysfunction, decreased sexual fantasies, and anorgasmia), decreased cognitive testing, sleep disturbances, infertility, and constitutional symptoms (general fatigue, agitation/motor dyskinesia, and decreased appetite).

Androgen administration or use of GnRH analogues results in a form of induced hypogonadism, functional hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. Androgen, nonsteroidal, administration is currently in the research and investigational stages. These studies indicate that their clinical use will also result in androgen-induced hypogonadism after cessation by their effects on gonadotropin levels.

Androgen induced hypogonadism (AIH) is the functional incompetence of the testes with subnormal or impaired production of testosterone or spermatozoa due to administration of androgens or anabolic steroids. AIH results from an abnormality in the normal functioning of the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis (HPTA), from a negative feedback inhibition of one of the hormone secreting glands, causing a cascading unbalance in the rest of the axis. To date, all compounds classified as androgens whether prescribed clinically or from illicit use cause a negative feedback inhibition of the hypothalamic pituitary testicular axis, suppress endogenous gonadotropin secretion, and as a consequence serum testosterone.

Case controlled and observational studies from licit and illicit anabolic/androgen steroid (AAS) administration demonstrate a hypogonadal state after their cessation. AAS, including testosterone, licit and illicit, administration induce a state of hypogonadism that continues after their cessation. This state is present during their administration but typically becomes symptomatic or manifest after AAS cessation.

For over fifty years, published literature demonstrates hypogonadism occurring after AAS cessation (AIH). AIH occurs in one-hundred percent of individuals upon AAS cessation. There is not a single study within the peer-reviewed literature demonstrating an immediate return of HPTA homeostasis upon AAS cessation. AAS, licit and illicit, induce a state of hypogonadism that continues after their cessation. The only variable is the duration and severity of AIH.

Countless publications study the use of testosterone as a male contraceptive agent. The simplistic reason for this is that exogenous administration will cause HPTA suppression, a decrease of sex hormones that includes endogenous testosterone production and the gonadotropins, both follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) and/or luteinizing hormone (LH).

The absence of FSH leads to infertility, contraception, or diminished spermatogenesis. This is an induced state of hypogonadism, infertility. The absent or decreased testicular testosterone production is replaced by its external administration. The individual does not experience the adverse effects of hypogonadism secondary to decreased serum testosterone because of exogenous testosterone administration. This does not take away from the fact that the patient is in a state of induced hypogonadism for the express purpose of contraception.

Birth control studies with testosterone administration in physiological as well as subphysiological doses demonstrate HPTA suppression. Studies conducted by World Health Organization have demonstrated complete recovery of the hypothalamic pituitary testicular axis (HPTA) after administration of supraphysiologic doses of testosterone for a year. The "complete recovery" referred to is spermatogenesis and not serum testosterone. The median time to recovery to the subject’s own geometric mean baseline sperm concentration is a range of 4.0-13.9 months. Thus, the data from the study affirm that the return of normal spermatogenesis may take over a year.


Male contraception studies with 19-nortestosterone, nandrolone, demonstrate the continued suppression of serum testosterone from control levels for greater than 15 weeks after nandrolone cessation. Other data available from the development of nandrolone decanoate for male contraception indicate that reversal of effects can take more than twelve months after discontinuation of the drugs.

The salient point is that after AAS cessation there is a period of recovery for HPTA normalization of gonadotropins (FSH and LH) and sex hormones (testosterone). This period is of an unknown duration and severity. This period of hypogonadism exposes the individual to the signs and symptoms of hypogonadism, specifically both adverse body composition changes and/or decreased muscle strength. Studies demonstrate the improvements in body composition obtained during AAS administration, are lost after AAS cessation.
Excellent research Tatyana. Demonstrates what we all know that happens, but dont want to know!
 
gjohnson5 said:
Unfortunately where is the profit potential in telling people they can juice for extended periods of time and they bodies will actually adjust to it? Especially when the drugs are illegal?

God , I wanna move to the UK...

the UK or canada. in canada possesion is quasi legal as I understand it.
 
I am not defending Ross in anyway by what I am saying and I am interested in hearing his answers to your questions.

But in all honestly how many of us are truly qualified to give steroid advice? Technically I am not qualified. A close family member of mine who is an MD specializing in reproductive medicine & fertility is even hesitant about giving formal advice when I ask. They take their doctor hat off and put their family member hat on. Why? Even with all the medical training and speciality in the field, the theories, questions, etc. that are flying around about proper steroid use is not backed by long term studies at doses that are being used. Most of this family member's advice is given with "disclaimer" that in their best opinion this should work or based on what I know etc etc. We have to remember that this is merely an entertainment site of sorts where information is shared.

Tatyana said:
You have some interesting ideas about steroids that are generating some interesting and sometimes heated debates.

So thanks for answering my question before about Uni, I now know you went.

My question is, what did you study?

My concern is that all of these recommendations are being made when:

1. You are young and have only been juicing for 4-5 years, so yes you have some experience, but not as much as a lot of the other lads on the board.

2. Do you have any formal qualifications in any of the fields related to human biology or medical studies? Endocrinology?


Experience does count for a lot, however, so does education.

Steroids are some of the most powerful drugs know to humans, and really, when handing out advice, you really are messing with the bit of men that they consider defines them the most, their bollux and their brains.
 
GUARDIAN said:
I am not defending Ross in anyway by what I am saying and I am interested in hearing his answers to your questions.

But in all honestly how many of us are truly qualified to give steroid advice? Technically I am not qualified. A close family member of mine who is an MD specializing in reproductive medicine & fertility is even hesitant about giving formal advice when I ask. They take their doctor hat off and put their family member hat on. Why? Even with all the medical training and speciality in the field, the theories, questions, etc. that are flying around about proper steroid use is not backed by long term studies at doses that are being used. Most of this family member's advice is given with "disclaimer" that in their best opinion this should work or based on what I know etc etc. We have to remember that this is merely an entertainment site of sorts where information is shared.

As steroid are a controlled substance in most countries, and banned as a performance enhancing drug, then there really are not that many experts.

I think a bit of common sense though.

A lot of years of experience, personal and training others is a plus, so is having a scientific background in something related to human biology/biochem/physiology.

The combo of the two, awesome.

People need to do their own research, and while I have met some of the most brilliant people I know in the bodybuilding community, I have also met some who are seriously lacking in the grey matter department (and I have seen them giving out advice).
 
We should make people take a test and write a small steroid essay before giving advice? :)


U r right there seems to be a lack of common sense in some people posting.

Tatyana said:
As steroid are a controlled substance in most countries, and banned as a performance enhancing drug, then there really are not that many experts.

I think a bit of common sense though.

A lot of years of experience, personal and training others is a plus, so is having a scientific background in something related to human biology/biochem/physiology.

The combo of the two, awesome.

People need to do their own research, and while I have met some of the most brilliant people I know in the bodybuilding community, I have also met some who are seriously lacking in the grey matter department (and I have seen them giving out advice).
 
GUARDIAN said:
We should make people take a test and write a small steroid essay before giving advice? :)


U r right there seems to be a lack of common sense in some people posting.

I remember chatting with one young man in the gym, he is one of my every now and then training buddies.

He had been studying all the steroids.

He said he knew everything, so I asked him what I thought was a few basic questions like:

1. What steroid hormones are naturally occurring in your body?

2. Where do the sex steroid hormones come from/how are they produced/where are they produced?

3. What is the basic signalling pathway for sex steroids? Where is the receptor for sex steroids?

He didn't know.

I also remember after I got my copy of Anabolics 2006 and read the introduction, and my first thoughts were, 'Most of the lads are not doing any research, cause if they read these 10-12 pages, probably 75% of their questions on BBing forums would be answered'.

I am not sure what it is

-if people just don't know where to look

- if they don't really know how to do research

- if they are lazy

- if they don't have any basic understanding of human biology

- if they just can't be bothered

- some of you lads are just too fantastic, knowledgeable and helpful :)
 
Tatyana said:
As steroid are a controlled substance in most countries, and banned as a performance enhancing drug, then there really are not that many experts.

I think a bit of common sense though.

A lot of years of experience, personal and training others is a plus, so is having a scientific background in something related to human biology/biochem/physiology.

The combo of the two, awesome.

People need to do their own research, and while I have met some of the most brilliant people I know in the bodybuilding community, I have also met some who are seriously lacking in the grey matter department (and I have seen them giving out advice).

sort of off topic, many make the mistake of going to genetic geniuses for advice thinking they must know the answers and the secrets. When those GG's could probably do most everything wrong and STILL be in the top 95% of pros. Or are so gifted in recovery that running their excersize program would just waste you away to nothing via overtraining and cortisol.

its like asking reggie jackson how to hit a home run.
 
Tatyana said:
I remember chatting with one young man in the gym, he is one of my every now and then training buddies.

He had been studying all the steroids.

He said he knew everything, so I asked him what I thought was a few basic questions like:

1. What steroid hormones are naturally occurring in your body?

2. Where do the sex steroid hormones come from/how are they produced/where are they produced?

3. What is the basic signalling pathway for sex steroids? Where is the receptor for sex steroids?

He didn't know.

I also remember after I got my copy of Anabolics 2006 and read the introduction, and my first thoughts were, 'Most of the lads are not doing any research, cause if they read these 10-12 pages, probably 75% of their questions on BBing forums would be answered'.

I am not sure what it is

A-if people just don't know where to look

B- if they don't really know how to do research

C- if they are lazy

D- if they don't have any basic understanding of human biology

E- if they just can't be bothered

- some of you lads are just too fantastic, knowledgeable and helpful :)

Probably some combination of A-E (I lettered them for my easy reference :)). "B" should be a no brainer for most anyone with a college education. I am fortunate enough to have access to thousands of full text journals with my faculty access at the university. It allows me to conduct my own research and not have to rely on what someone else tells me to be true. Though posts, articles, & other literature from folks sparks a question that I may have (like i am sure it does with u) and I try to prove or disprove it based on my personal experience along with scientific documentation.
 
Sometimes an individual is unable to find the complex answers he/she is looking for and that is why we have VETS and MODS. :)
 
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