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The "Return to Sender" Technique
- Thread starter Rick Collins
- Start date
bwood
Banned
rick, it seems to me that as sloppy as the feds/locals
can be at times, that having a firepot handy might
not be a bad idea...
by firepot, i mean a small kiln type apparatus
set up with perhaps some homemade thermite
or powdered aluminum with a magnesium flare igniter...
feds knock after acceptance...what evidence???
no, thats not it at 4500 F right there i swear...
can be at times, that having a firepot handy might
not be a bad idea...
by firepot, i mean a small kiln type apparatus
set up with perhaps some homemade thermite
or powdered aluminum with a magnesium flare igniter...
feds knock after acceptance...what evidence???
no, thats not it at 4500 F right there i swear...
In such an instance, law enforcement will offer their sworn testimony that the package was delivered and was unrecoverable upon a susequent search. The will testify and may also introduce expert testimony that the device you describe was hot enough to destroy the package and its contents in short order. The defendant could quite possibly also be charged with obstruction of justice for destrying the evidence. The fact finder will then be asked to draw a reasonble inference predicated upon the testimony and circumstantial evidence.
RW
RW
Cops making the effort
This is a good post, but is over-emphasized in some ways.
1st
It costs money to have these controlled deliveries and have 2,3+ cops involved in the sting, so there has to be a good incentive for them, i.e. large qty, history of trafficking, a subject of interest , link to a bigger bust, etc.
2nd
The cops will want to make sure all their I's are dotted and T's crossed before moving in. This means they preffer to have the packag accepted AND opened when they raid the house
3rd
With the current police budgets, cops are more selective in who they go after. If they want to just make any bust, there are plenty of drug dealers around town that they can go and harrass
4th
Cops are lazy and get involved only when they have to. In this case if they received a phone call from customs, they would have to react.
5th
Cops will need to know what's in the package before getting a warrent. In that case they would have to open the package and as a result it would be delayed. Pending on how it was packaged, iot might not be easy to repack it as original.
I don't know in the US, but here in Canada we typically get a letter or phone call from customs regarding the package, wanting information or to come in and sign for it. In that case if you are not expecting anything, you simply decline to accept.
In any case as paneral said, if your house is clean, the pigs have nothing ot really nail you with. Pigs like to work backwards, if they find something they justify the search. If not, then case is usually dropped, even for a bogus package...
This is a good post, but is over-emphasized in some ways.
1st
It costs money to have these controlled deliveries and have 2,3+ cops involved in the sting, so there has to be a good incentive for them, i.e. large qty, history of trafficking, a subject of interest , link to a bigger bust, etc.
2nd
The cops will want to make sure all their I's are dotted and T's crossed before moving in. This means they preffer to have the packag accepted AND opened when they raid the house
3rd
With the current police budgets, cops are more selective in who they go after. If they want to just make any bust, there are plenty of drug dealers around town that they can go and harrass
4th
Cops are lazy and get involved only when they have to. In this case if they received a phone call from customs, they would have to react.
5th
Cops will need to know what's in the package before getting a warrent. In that case they would have to open the package and as a result it would be delayed. Pending on how it was packaged, iot might not be easy to repack it as original.
I don't know in the US, but here in Canada we typically get a letter or phone call from customs regarding the package, wanting information or to come in and sign for it. In that case if you are not expecting anything, you simply decline to accept.
In any case as paneral said, if your house is clean, the pigs have nothing ot really nail you with. Pigs like to work backwards, if they find something they justify the search. If not, then case is usually dropped, even for a bogus package...
Terms like a "large" quantity and a "clean" house can be subjective and arguable. In the States, we don't get Customs phone calls. Instead, we get bored postal inspectors looking to justify next year's budget with a controlled delivery. While there are clearly pieces of truth in some of Dr. JK's points, if the overall impression taken from it is that nobody has been arrested for accepting a package unless they open it, that's not correct.
bwood
Banned
ROID WARRIOR said:
i dont believe so...as state law varies, lets examine this under the model penal code...
we are dealing with the crime of possession which requires that the possessor knowingly procured or received the thing possessed, OR was aware of his control thereof for a sufficient period to have been able to terminate his possession...
unless the state's law provides some presumption as to the possessor's mens rea, i believe the hasty destruction of the package and its contents MAY be an effective defense...i can see where the court may hold that the person should have contacted the authorities...
BUT remember that each element of the offense must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt...therefore if the person's setup of an appropriate destructive device can be reasonably explained and his story is believable as to his fear and dismay upon discovering that an unknown third party was attempting to implicate him, his subsequent destruction of the contraband may serve as an effective defense...especially if he is able to keep his wits and not implicate himself by running his mouth and there is no other contraband in the residence...
also, hindering prosecution requires that a person have the PURPOSE to hinder the prosecution by destroying the evidence...the above should be a defense to that as well due to the noble purpose of terminating the possession of contraband...
my main concern is the possibility of shoddy work by the investigators even precluding an indictment...
were pictures taken of the evidence??? were samples taken and tested??? is the prosecutor really willing to roll the dice on a handfull of allegations minus any physical evidence???
i believe that if i was a dealer receiving big packages, and not wise enough to use proxies, that i would invest in my own glass marble crafting business/hobby...with the above quick ignite system...
I'm not sure I understand the point of all this. Initially, it was my impression that you suggested obliterating the package in an effort to claim that it never existed and that the People had no case. Otherwise, you're simply proposing what is essentially an elaborate and convoluted, albeit creative, spin on writing "return to sender" and placing the package back outside in an effort to purge the acceptance. In that case, if the package contains tablets or capsules, why not simply do what is done on every narcotic drug raid everyday of the week: make a mad dash to the garbage disposal or flush them. There is no need for a quick fire, only a quick flush.
RW
RW
Theoretically possible that a jury could have a reasonable doubt, given all of the "if's" of the 4th paragraph (and maybe a few others). [They could also buy, "Omigod, honestly, I was flushing that nasty white coke powder down the toilet even before you cops burst in!"] In practice, I'm extremely skeptical that this defense could be pulled off successfully.
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New member
Sorry to enlighten everyone here but if you get a controlled delivery odds are you are screwed when you sign for the package. End result is a plea bargain and you’ll be working with the enemy until the day you are sentenced.
They’ll hold sentencing day and the DA’s recommendation to the judge as leverage over your head to turn everyone you know in.
Destroy the evidence and it’s as if it’s sitting there in court anyway. If you have a clean house you are still screwed. After they seize your legal supplements they’ll try to link it all together anyway. It’s not about trial and they know it. It will never reach trial and they know this too. It’s all about numbers.
They’ll hold sentencing day and the DA’s recommendation to the judge as leverage over your head to turn everyone you know in.
Destroy the evidence and it’s as if it’s sitting there in court anyway. If you have a clean house you are still screwed. After they seize your legal supplements they’ll try to link it all together anyway. It’s not about trial and they know it. It will never reach trial and they know this too. It’s all about numbers.
Gee, thanks for enlightening us! But wasn't that acceptance issue the original point of the thread?
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