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cyrex
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There have been numerous threads asking questions like:
"What oral only cycle should I do first?"
"What oral can I stack with dbol?"
"I don't like needles, what can I take to get big?"
I am creating this post to hopefully stifle these types of questions.
-------------------------------------------------
First let's list some of the common oral steroids I'll be refering to:
Also assume that this is directed toward a healthy male who has finished puberty and is done growing (growth plates are fused)
"Who should take an oral only cycle?"
No one, but that probably won't stop you will it? However, since orals have a very short half life, something like anavar, tbol, or winny may be a better choice than esterized injectables since they are more difficult to detect in a drug test later on down the road. But this is a seperate issue.
The majority of you out there who are interested in an oral only cycle are interested for one or more of the following reasons:
I completey agree with those that are hesitant to put something unnatural in their body and wanting to be safe on the first cycle and not go 'hardcore' right away. For those in that line of thought, please read on to learn what you should do for your first 'safe' cycle.
"Which oral is best?"
This very much depends on your goals, so I'll leave goal specific answers OUT of this thread and focus on some generalizations.
Of the orals listed above, oral winny and anavar will most likely allow you to keep the most of your gains, however they are also the two that you will gain the least on, whereas dbol and androl will give a HUGE boost in strength and mass (much of it will be water retention) but very little of these gains will be kept. Anavar, winny, and tbol are the most expensive but also anavar will most likely produce the least amount of sides. Based on this information, your goals, and your budget you can determine which you would prefer to use.
"What sides can I expect?"
Short answer, a lot. With the exception of anavar, common orals will have MORE side effects than common injectables (Test, EQ, Deca, etc).
You should expect and prepare for the following:
This list was in no particular order, however they are all valid sides that you may experience while using orals. Oral sides and how to counteract/prevent them are far LESS documented than those from some of the more common injectables (Testosterone). This is especially pronounced when taking an Oral Only cycle because a large dose is required for it to be more effective.
**Oral steroids must pass through the liver and are very toxic to the liver. For this reason, they should not be taken for longer than 4-6 weeks at a time unless you have cloned a few extra livers in case yours fails.
"How do these side effects compare to injectables?"
As stated above, injectables have more documented sides and there are a number of supplements and ancillaries that can be taken to prevent and counteract these. You may see all of off the above listed side effects with injectables with the exception of liver damage. Injectables are not subject to passing through the liver as orals are and are not anywhere near as toxic to the liver. Of the sides mentioned for oral steroids, the #1 sure thing on that list is liver damage. For the oral to work at all it MUST pass through the liver. With all of the above listed oral steroids, they all contain some significant level of liver toxicity. Anavar is the least toxic however and may be run longer than something like dbol before causing the same amount of liver damage.
This is one of the primary reasons why those of you who 'are hesitant to put anything unnatural in your body' or 'thinking "orals are safer since I they don't require needles" ' you are VERY WRONG. A liver toxic pill that must pass through your liver before working is definately unnatural and is NOT safe.
With the knowledge that you risk the same side effects MINUS the liver damage when using an oral compared to an injectable, the only difference here is you trade not having to poke yourself with a needle and risking a sore ass or possibly a very treatable abcess with damaging an extremely important organ in your body (your liver).
"What does the liver do anyway? Is important or can I have it removed like my apendix?"
Your liver is one of the more important organs in your body. It is almost as important as your brain, heart, and lungs. It is part of regulating glucose, regulating protein, regulating fat, regulating hormones, regulating fat soluble vitamins (A, D, E, K), protein synthesis(creation), bile acid synthesis(creation), cholesterol synthesis(creation), vitamin storage, cholesterol storage, filtering out toxic drugs (AA17 toxic products and poisons), filtering bile acids and phospholipids, filtering nutrients(amino acids, sugars, fats), defense against bacteria that crosses from the gut into the blood.
In short, if you lose your liver you won't live long. It is very difficult to repair and liver transplants have a relatively low rate of success to recover 100%.
Of all of the possible side effects of steroids, the one I personally consider the largest risk is liver disease. Remember this is much more common with orals than injectables!
"How will my gains compare to a common injectable like test cypionate?"
Your gains will come MUCH faster. However much of it will be water weight and it will be lost very quickly after you are finished. A longer half life steroid such as test cyp will take longer to be absorbed into the body and to work it's magic but that also means it requires fewer dosages and blood levels of the compound will stay the same longer. Once you finish your cycle, you will be ready for PCT in a few days whereas it may be 2 weeks after your last shot before you need to start PCT with test cyp.
Gains with an injectable will come slow and steady and will be comprised more of muscle than water, whereas gains from an oral will either be small (anavar) or contain a lot of water (dbol).
"I want to stack something with my [oral roid here]. What should I stack it with?"
Testosterone (Enanthate, Cypionate, Sust, etc) is the absolute best answer here . . .
Yes this is what I've been leading up to all along
If you've learned anything so far it's that orals will either not give much for gains or if they do, you won't keep them. They fuck up your liver at doses required to make the gains you want.
Absolute best way to use an oral is to stack it with an primary injectable such as Test, Deca, Eq, etc. This is because you will get the most bang for your buck. An oral alone is toxic to the liver, will cause sides, may be very expensive and you won't keep much of your gains. You stack it with an injectable and you can use less of it for less time which still does damage your liver a bit, but more along the lines of a weekend drinking binge rather than a few years worth of heavy alcoholism. There is a SYNERGISTIC effect with orals and injectables. Where you may gain +6 muscle with your oral alone and you might gain +7 strenght with your injectable alone this should total +13 strenght when taken together, however synergy means that they work together very nicely and rather than gaining +13 strenght you might gain +16 strength. If you are assuming this is +3 more than each alone, that is like taking your oral (+6) and turning it into a (+9) which is 50% more effective! For a smaller dose and taken during a shorter period!
"FUCK YOU, you tricked me into reading this thread. I don't want to inject anything. Needles are unsafe and lead to heroin addiction! I'm gonna take 10 weeks of androl and then I'm gonna come kick your ass when I'm benching 500 lbs bitch!"
Ok... looks like you already started your oral cycle and are roid ragin on me already. If this is the case, you should really stop now, get PCT going and toss the orals, or make out a living will so that way when your liver fails you can be prepared.
Injections are much safer when done properly than taking a liver toxic oral.
"How did you know I started already?... I'm still gonna kick your ass"
I'll bitch slap you in the belly and make your liver burst bitch!
"Ok so how do I inject properly and what injectable should I use?"
There we go.. I'll leave that for another thread. But look all around on the forums at elitefitness.com and research some more. There are some great guys there with great information.
"Can't I get AIDS from using a needle???"
Yes you can if you use a needle that someone else with HIV has used. Never use a needle that someone elese has used. They are very cheap and easily obtained. You can buy needles and syringes online legally as well as at a drugstore. They come in a very sterile package and are the same ones your doctor would use. Never reuse a needle even if it was used on yourself only.
"So I wasted all this money on these orals and I shouldn't use them??"
No, not at all, you can still use them. Use them along with an injectable to jumpstart your gains since it takes a while for the gains from a long ester injectable to do it's work. You can use smaller doses, for shorter amount of time so you can make your 1 cycle worth of oral last 2 or 3 cycles when stacked with something like Deca or EQ.
"Ok, sounds good. What is that PCT thing you were talking about?"
Post Cycle Therapy. I'll not go too deep into discussing this here. In short, all anabolic/androgenic steroids, oral and injectable, will shut down your testicles when used at any usefull dose. This means your testes fail to produce the natural amount of testosterone that your body needs. Post Cycle Therapy is drug therapy consisting of things like Nolvadex, Clomid, and/or HCG which all promote natural testosterone production and/or prevent negative effects of aromatized estrogen. They will get you back to your natural state and prevent side effects like gynomastia(bitch tits) from happening. For the most part you need to start this 2 or 3 days after finishing an oral only cycle.
I'll leave with a little story to exemplify the above questions:
If two genetically identical twins both began seperate cycles. Bob taking dbol @ 40mg/day and Jim taking test cyp @ 500mg/wk.
Bob is scared of needles and bought 5 weeks worth of dbol for 1000 simolians. Jim is also scared of needles but researched on EF and everyone told him to suck it up and stick it in his ass so he's gonna give it a go. He paid 1000 simolians for enough Test cypionate to last him 10 weeks. The following is an account of their story. None of which is unrealistic. Let's assume that as far as acne and balding goes, they experience the exact same sides or lack thereof as these are both sides that tend to be determined by genetic proneness to them.
Sunday: They begin
Monday: Bob will notice a definate pump when they workout. Jim will have a sore butt cheek.
Tuesday: Bob will be able to go a few more reps than Jim will and may have gained .5 lb or so. Jim won't be sore in the butt cheek much more but he won't feel much different.
Bob feels emotionally great. Everything looks prettier and smells sweeter.
...
Saturday: Bob has gained 5 lbs and looks a little puffy. He is lifting more weight on every exercise than Jim. Jim still feels nothing different
Fast forward 5 weeks.
Bob has gained 15 lbs he looks big and kinda puffy but he is lifting significantly more than Jim. He is finished with his cycle.
Jim is now feeling pretty damn good about himself for some reason and his lifts are going up faster.
Fast forward 1 week.
Bob has lost 5 lbs this week and seems to be peeing a lot.
Jim is feeling absolutely wonderful and his lifts just keep getting better he is starting to look a little puffy he has gained 12 lbs so far in the last 6 weeks.
Fast forward 4 weeks.
Bob has lost another 8 lbs and is lifting about as much as he was on day 5. Jim on the other hand has had his strenght go through the roof and is up 30 lbs since the start. His last injection was this week.
Fast forward a few weeks again.
Bob is still up 2 lbs from when he started (he hasn't lost any more)
Jim lost 5 lbs and doesn't look puffy at all he hasn't been losing any more weight, although his strenght has gone down a little bit he is still lifting quite a bit more than Bob. Unfortunately he has a big red and warm bump on his right butt cheek. Its sore to the touch and he is going to the doctor tomorrow.
Tonight Bob is jealous and pissed off that his bro Jim is bigger than him and stronger so he goes out and gets piss drunk.
Bob's friend calls Jim and says Bob is very sick at the bar and that Jim should come get him. Jim drives to the bar with a very sore butt and picks up Bob. Bob is coughing up blood but he is still trying to sing his favorite irishi drinking song. They go to the hospital.
Bob is admitted for liver failure and Jim is also seen by a doc. The doc diagnoses Jim with an abcess, administers some Kaflax (general antibiotic) and makes a small incision on the bump to releave the pressure and clean out a small pocket of puss. Jim gets patched up in 30 minutes and Bob is put on the liver transplant list.
"What oral only cycle should I do first?"
"What oral can I stack with dbol?"
"I don't like needles, what can I take to get big?"
I am creating this post to hopefully stifle these types of questions.
-------------------------------------------------
First let's list some of the common oral steroids I'll be refering to:
- Anadrol
- Anavar (var)
- Dianabol (dbol)
- Turanabol (tbol)
- Stanabol (oral winny)
Also assume that this is directed toward a healthy male who has finished puberty and is done growing (growth plates are fused)
"Who should take an oral only cycle?"
No one, but that probably won't stop you will it? However, since orals have a very short half life, something like anavar, tbol, or winny may be a better choice than esterized injectables since they are more difficult to detect in a drug test later on down the road. But this is a seperate issue.
The majority of you out there who are interested in an oral only cycle are interested for one or more of the following reasons:
- You are thinking "orals are safer since I they don't require needles"
- You are hesitant to put anything unnatural in your body (a steel piece of sharp metal)
- You want to hide your gear use from family/friends and orals are far less conspicuous than amps, vials, and syringes.
- You want to start with a small 'test' cycle and you are thinking that orals aren't as 'hardcore' as injecting some Deca.
I completey agree with those that are hesitant to put something unnatural in their body and wanting to be safe on the first cycle and not go 'hardcore' right away. For those in that line of thought, please read on to learn what you should do for your first 'safe' cycle.
"Which oral is best?"
This very much depends on your goals, so I'll leave goal specific answers OUT of this thread and focus on some generalizations.
Of the orals listed above, oral winny and anavar will most likely allow you to keep the most of your gains, however they are also the two that you will gain the least on, whereas dbol and androl will give a HUGE boost in strength and mass (much of it will be water retention) but very little of these gains will be kept. Anavar, winny, and tbol are the most expensive but also anavar will most likely produce the least amount of sides. Based on this information, your goals, and your budget you can determine which you would prefer to use.
"What sides can I expect?"
Short answer, a lot. With the exception of anavar, common orals will have MORE side effects than common injectables (Test, EQ, Deca, etc).
You should expect and prepare for the following:
- Liver Damage **
- Gynomastia
- Bloating
- Natural testosterone production shutdown
- Raised blood pressure
- Balding
- Enlarged prostate
- Acne
This list was in no particular order, however they are all valid sides that you may experience while using orals. Oral sides and how to counteract/prevent them are far LESS documented than those from some of the more common injectables (Testosterone). This is especially pronounced when taking an Oral Only cycle because a large dose is required for it to be more effective.
**Oral steroids must pass through the liver and are very toxic to the liver. For this reason, they should not be taken for longer than 4-6 weeks at a time unless you have cloned a few extra livers in case yours fails.
"How do these side effects compare to injectables?"
As stated above, injectables have more documented sides and there are a number of supplements and ancillaries that can be taken to prevent and counteract these. You may see all of off the above listed side effects with injectables with the exception of liver damage. Injectables are not subject to passing through the liver as orals are and are not anywhere near as toxic to the liver. Of the sides mentioned for oral steroids, the #1 sure thing on that list is liver damage. For the oral to work at all it MUST pass through the liver. With all of the above listed oral steroids, they all contain some significant level of liver toxicity. Anavar is the least toxic however and may be run longer than something like dbol before causing the same amount of liver damage.
This is one of the primary reasons why those of you who 'are hesitant to put anything unnatural in your body' or 'thinking "orals are safer since I they don't require needles" ' you are VERY WRONG. A liver toxic pill that must pass through your liver before working is definately unnatural and is NOT safe.
With the knowledge that you risk the same side effects MINUS the liver damage when using an oral compared to an injectable, the only difference here is you trade not having to poke yourself with a needle and risking a sore ass or possibly a very treatable abcess with damaging an extremely important organ in your body (your liver).
"What does the liver do anyway? Is important or can I have it removed like my apendix?"
Your liver is one of the more important organs in your body. It is almost as important as your brain, heart, and lungs. It is part of regulating glucose, regulating protein, regulating fat, regulating hormones, regulating fat soluble vitamins (A, D, E, K), protein synthesis(creation), bile acid synthesis(creation), cholesterol synthesis(creation), vitamin storage, cholesterol storage, filtering out toxic drugs (AA17 toxic products and poisons), filtering bile acids and phospholipids, filtering nutrients(amino acids, sugars, fats), defense against bacteria that crosses from the gut into the blood.
In short, if you lose your liver you won't live long. It is very difficult to repair and liver transplants have a relatively low rate of success to recover 100%.
Of all of the possible side effects of steroids, the one I personally consider the largest risk is liver disease. Remember this is much more common with orals than injectables!
"How will my gains compare to a common injectable like test cypionate?"
Your gains will come MUCH faster. However much of it will be water weight and it will be lost very quickly after you are finished. A longer half life steroid such as test cyp will take longer to be absorbed into the body and to work it's magic but that also means it requires fewer dosages and blood levels of the compound will stay the same longer. Once you finish your cycle, you will be ready for PCT in a few days whereas it may be 2 weeks after your last shot before you need to start PCT with test cyp.
Gains with an injectable will come slow and steady and will be comprised more of muscle than water, whereas gains from an oral will either be small (anavar) or contain a lot of water (dbol).
"I want to stack something with my [oral roid here]. What should I stack it with?"
Testosterone (Enanthate, Cypionate, Sust, etc) is the absolute best answer here . . .
Yes this is what I've been leading up to all along
If you've learned anything so far it's that orals will either not give much for gains or if they do, you won't keep them. They fuck up your liver at doses required to make the gains you want.
Absolute best way to use an oral is to stack it with an primary injectable such as Test, Deca, Eq, etc. This is because you will get the most bang for your buck. An oral alone is toxic to the liver, will cause sides, may be very expensive and you won't keep much of your gains. You stack it with an injectable and you can use less of it for less time which still does damage your liver a bit, but more along the lines of a weekend drinking binge rather than a few years worth of heavy alcoholism. There is a SYNERGISTIC effect with orals and injectables. Where you may gain +6 muscle with your oral alone and you might gain +7 strenght with your injectable alone this should total +13 strenght when taken together, however synergy means that they work together very nicely and rather than gaining +13 strenght you might gain +16 strength. If you are assuming this is +3 more than each alone, that is like taking your oral (+6) and turning it into a (+9) which is 50% more effective! For a smaller dose and taken during a shorter period!
"FUCK YOU, you tricked me into reading this thread. I don't want to inject anything. Needles are unsafe and lead to heroin addiction! I'm gonna take 10 weeks of androl and then I'm gonna come kick your ass when I'm benching 500 lbs bitch!"
Ok... looks like you already started your oral cycle and are roid ragin on me already. If this is the case, you should really stop now, get PCT going and toss the orals, or make out a living will so that way when your liver fails you can be prepared.
Injections are much safer when done properly than taking a liver toxic oral.
"How did you know I started already?... I'm still gonna kick your ass"
I'll bitch slap you in the belly and make your liver burst bitch!
"Ok so how do I inject properly and what injectable should I use?"
There we go..
I'll leave that for another thread. But look all around on the forums at elitefitness.com and research some more. There are some great guys there with great information."Can't I get AIDS from using a needle???"
Yes you can if you use a needle that someone else with HIV has used. Never use a needle that someone elese has used. They are very cheap and easily obtained. You can buy needles and syringes online legally as well as at a drugstore. They come in a very sterile package and are the same ones your doctor would use. Never reuse a needle even if it was used on yourself only.
"So I wasted all this money on these orals and I shouldn't use them??"
No, not at all, you can still use them. Use them along with an injectable to jumpstart your gains since it takes a while for the gains from a long ester injectable to do it's work. You can use smaller doses, for shorter amount of time so you can make your 1 cycle worth of oral last 2 or 3 cycles when stacked with something like Deca or EQ.
"Ok, sounds good. What is that PCT thing you were talking about?"
Post Cycle Therapy. I'll not go too deep into discussing this here. In short, all anabolic/androgenic steroids, oral and injectable, will shut down your testicles when used at any usefull dose. This means your testes fail to produce the natural amount of testosterone that your body needs. Post Cycle Therapy is drug therapy consisting of things like Nolvadex, Clomid, and/or HCG which all promote natural testosterone production and/or prevent negative effects of aromatized estrogen. They will get you back to your natural state and prevent side effects like gynomastia(bitch tits) from happening. For the most part you need to start this 2 or 3 days after finishing an oral only cycle.
I'll leave with a little story to exemplify the above questions:
If two genetically identical twins both began seperate cycles. Bob taking dbol @ 40mg/day and Jim taking test cyp @ 500mg/wk.
Bob is scared of needles and bought 5 weeks worth of dbol for 1000 simolians. Jim is also scared of needles but researched on EF and everyone told him to suck it up and stick it in his ass so he's gonna give it a go. He paid 1000 simolians for enough Test cypionate to last him 10 weeks. The following is an account of their story. None of which is unrealistic. Let's assume that as far as acne and balding goes, they experience the exact same sides or lack thereof as these are both sides that tend to be determined by genetic proneness to them.
Sunday: They begin
Monday: Bob will notice a definate pump when they workout. Jim will have a sore butt cheek.
Tuesday: Bob will be able to go a few more reps than Jim will and may have gained .5 lb or so. Jim won't be sore in the butt cheek much more but he won't feel much different.
Bob feels emotionally great. Everything looks prettier and smells sweeter.
...
Saturday: Bob has gained 5 lbs and looks a little puffy. He is lifting more weight on every exercise than Jim. Jim still feels nothing different
Fast forward 5 weeks.
Bob has gained 15 lbs he looks big and kinda puffy but he is lifting significantly more than Jim. He is finished with his cycle.
Jim is now feeling pretty damn good about himself for some reason and his lifts are going up faster.
Fast forward 1 week.
Bob has lost 5 lbs this week and seems to be peeing a lot.
Jim is feeling absolutely wonderful and his lifts just keep getting better he is starting to look a little puffy he has gained 12 lbs so far in the last 6 weeks.
Fast forward 4 weeks.
Bob has lost another 8 lbs and is lifting about as much as he was on day 5. Jim on the other hand has had his strenght go through the roof and is up 30 lbs since the start. His last injection was this week.
Fast forward a few weeks again.
Bob is still up 2 lbs from when he started (he hasn't lost any more)
Jim lost 5 lbs and doesn't look puffy at all he hasn't been losing any more weight, although his strenght has gone down a little bit he is still lifting quite a bit more than Bob. Unfortunately he has a big red and warm bump on his right butt cheek. Its sore to the touch and he is going to the doctor tomorrow.
Tonight Bob is jealous and pissed off that his bro Jim is bigger than him and stronger so he goes out and gets piss drunk.
Bob's friend calls Jim and says Bob is very sick at the bar and that Jim should come get him. Jim drives to the bar with a very sore butt and picks up Bob. Bob is coughing up blood but he is still trying to sing his favorite irishi drinking song. They go to the hospital.
Bob is admitted for liver failure and Jim is also seen by a doc. The doc diagnoses Jim with an abcess, administers some Kaflax (general antibiotic) and makes a small incision on the bump to releave the pressure and clean out a small pocket of puss. Jim gets patched up in 30 minutes and Bob is put on the liver transplant list.
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