Thanks Dabuff! One more question, which I also pm'd to needto earlier, but just want to see what your thoughts are. So I've done two cycles of Havoc. 1st cycle was havoc only, for the recommended dosage as stated on bottle. No PCT cause I was told not to(this was like three years ago before I did any research. 2nd cycle was Havoc and RV2 by RAGE. Pct consisted of a bottle of Nolvadex XT from Gaspari. SO now that I'm trying another cycle (all of these about a year apart) with the goal of just getting Really really veiny, dry, and hard, what would you use, the Beast, or epi with the Katanadrol? if you need stats I'm 27 6'2" 205lbs and got down to about 8% body fat right now. Super mega, clean diet. Cardio swims three times a week and lift very hard 5X a week. Sorry to somewhat hijack this thread but it still seemed relative...