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**The Anabolic Bible: Mastering The Art of Using Anabolic Steroids!**
s8nlilhlpr
Banned
Anthony Roberts said:
You realize almost all vitamins are water soluble correct? A, D, E, K are the fat soluble ones that can build up to toxicity levels. Anything else just gets pissed out.....I'm curious why you don't know this?
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Ross
Guest
tru dat
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Anthony Roberts
Guest
s8nlilhlpr said:
I do know that. I never even mentioned toxicity...you (wrongly) assumed I was talking about that. However, the same mechanism which allows B6 to lower progesterone also makes it lower androgen transcription. Fairly common knowledge I thought.
Why would you want to lower androgen gene transcription?
During PCT that is the worst idea - ever. It's a terrible recommendation to include any b6 in your PCT over the RDA. Just like I said earlier. Sorry I didn't clarify why it's such a shockingly bad idea...I thought everyone was aware of that fact on B6, since I posted it on steroid.com several months ago.
Triple J
New member
the reason for using b6 to combat prolactin is that it is a direct precursor involved in dopamine formation, (increasing dopamine lowers prolactin) there are legit studies demonstrating its effectiveness for this. it is generally a good idea to support healthy dopamine levels during PCT as dopamine levels tend to fall with declining androgens.
i am doubtful of, and not aware of any studies in humans showing b6 lowers androgen gene transcription but willing to learn more on this topic, it certainly is not common knowledge to me
i am doubtful of, and not aware of any studies in humans showing b6 lowers androgen gene transcription but willing to learn more on this topic, it certainly is not common knowledge to me
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Anthony Roberts
Guest
Triple J said:
J Biol Chem. 1992 Feb 25;267(6):3819-24.
Vitamin B6 modulates transcriptional activation by multiple members of the steroid hormone receptor superfamily.
Allgood VE,
Cidlowski JA.
Department of Physiology, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill 27599-7545.
Recent studies have shown that vitamin B6 modulates transcriptional activation by the human glucocorticoid receptor in HeLa S3 cells. We have now examined the possibility that vitamin B6 might similarly influence transcriptional activation by the glucocorticoid receptor in other cell types, as well as gene expression mediated by other members of the steroid hormone receptor superfamily. We show that elevated vitamin B6 concentrations suppress by 40-65% the level of transcription mediated through the endogenous murine L cell glucocorticoid receptor, as well as the human receptor transfected into E8.2 and T47D cells. In contrast, glucocorticoid receptor-mediated transcription was enhanced 60-110% in mild vitamin deficiency. The level of hormone-independent constitutive gene expression was not affected by these same alterations in vitamin B6 concentration. These studies indicated that the transcriptional modulatory effects of the vitamin were neither restricted to specific cell types nor limited to the human form of the glucocorticoid receptor. We next determined if hormone-induced transcription by several other steroid receptors (androgen, progesterone, and estrogen receptors) was analogously affected by alterations in vitamin B6 concentration. Analysis of gene expression mediated through the mouse mammary tumor virus promoter revealed that transcriptional activation of both the androgen and progesterone receptors was reduced by 35-40% under conditions of elevated vitamin B6 and enhanced by 60-90% in deficiency, again under conditions where constitutive expression was unaffected. Using a different promoter, the estrogen-regulated vitellogenin promoter, we found that transcriptional activation of the estrogen receptor was similarly affected. Estrogen-induced gene expression was reduced by 30% under conditions of elevated intracellular vitamin B6 and enhanced by 85% in vitamin deficiency. Thus, vitamin B6 modulates transcriptional activation by multiple classes of steroid hormone receptors. The similarities in vitamin B6 effects on transcription mediated through different promoters, the mouse mammary tumor virus and vitellogenin promoters, suggest that this vitamin may modulate the expression of a diverse array of hormonally responsive genes. These observations together support the hypothesis that vitamin B6 represents a physiological modulator of steroid hormone action.
Triple J
New member
well thx for sharing that. its not enough information for me personally to jump to any conclusions though. it seems to also suggest a deficiency state would enhance transcription by 60-90%. so would you advise creating such a deficiency? obviously there are many factors that come into play so this is not a cut and dried issue.
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Anthony Roberts
Guest
Triple J said:
Much more information is available.
I only looked this up originally because B6 had been recommended for so long that I thought it may operate on the entire superfamily of receptors, based on what I know of it. I found more than just this study, but I posted the one that I think proves my point the best.
So the short answer is that there is much more information available on this topic, in medical journals, and I think you'll agree with me that it's not a great thing to put additional amounts of in PCT.
If you take a look at what I said, I simply say that going over the RDA isn't a great idea, I don't say anything about creating a deficiency.
The degree to which it will help control progesterone is the degree to which it will hurt androgen transcription. So I think it's Cut and Dried as to whether you should use more than the RDA (you shouldn't).
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Anthony Roberts
Guest
georgie24 said:
I honestly don't agree with things that Ross posts, but I don't call him names, and when I disagree, I simply try to present my side of the issue.
I don't think it's cool to call him a jackass...if you disagree with something (that he says, that I say, etc...), I think it's far better to disprove it, or present contrary evidence, but the tone that the Anabolic Forum has recently had isn't great.
needtogetaas
New member
good post bro....you should sign up here on my keep the peace thread to.Anthony Roberts said:
krishna
New member
I agree with this to a certain extent. I don't agree with using long esters as a "bridge" like eq or primo. How can you do full pct if you are still somewhat suppressed by these compounds. Orals or short esters make sense in this case. My thoughts on gear and usage have been progressing pretty close to what this guy says. Not all gear shuts you down. You can tell by the way your nuts act. You just have to pay attention to your body. I like to overlap full pct with the clearing of long esters by about a week or so. Otherwise, this guy has some valid points.
yonkers weights
Banned
Many editions of this book have been printed and reprinted.
What year was this taken from?
What year was this taken from?
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Ross
Guest
Yonkers Weights said:
This is MY article, I am the author This is NOT to be confused with the "Steroid Bible".
I wrote this last week..
yonkers weights
Banned
Congrats!
Is it just an article or are you working on a book?
Is it just an article or are you working on a book?
- Ross - said:This is MY article, I am the author This is NOT to be confused with the "Steroid Bible".
I wrote this last week..
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Ross
Guest
Yonkers Weights said:
I am glad you enjoyed.
I am working on a book, amongst other things.
Good stuff ahead!
yonkers weights
Banned
Good luck and keep me posted.
- Ross - said:I am glad you enjoyed.
I am working on a book, amongst other things.
Good stuff ahead!
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Ross
Guest
Thanks bro!
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Ross
Guest
Bump
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Ross
Guest
Great responses fellas
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Ross
Guest
digit0x said:
Prolactin alone determines how SENSITIVE the HPTA is.
The HIGHER your PROLACTIN, the more SENSITIVE the HPTA! If you have a SENSITIVE HPTA, it will DETECT ANY amount of exogenous steroids and will respond by SHUTTING DOWN.
On the contrary, if you have SUBNORMAL prolactin(very low), the HPTA is so DESENSITIZED, it CAN'T EVEN DETECT THE EXOGENOUS STEROIDS IN THE BODY!
Decreasing Proalctin while on cycle is the wise decision.
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Ross
Guest
digit0x said:FINE SHEESH
hahahahah
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Ross
Guest
Bump for newbies who requested this
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Ross
Guest
This is great everytime I read it..LOL
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Ross
Guest
Bizunkadunk
Triple J
New member
digit0x said:
i have personally experienced a ride to the ER due to acute dopamine overdrive / hyperventilation / fainting at the gym from bromocriptine use. i am sensitive to this side effect. dostinex is safer but still too strong IMHO as it is closely related to bromo (both ergot derivitives). a safer bet IMHO is selegiline with adequate dopamine percursors such as b6 and tryosine. also piracetim. i also believe overuse of stimulants leads to a prolactin rebound effect as basic physiology would suggest this to be the case however i have no direct evidence. do you remember guys repordting deca dick like symptoms from ephedrine use?
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Ross
Guest
Triple J said:
WOW.
Did you feel anxious and jittery? Kind of CRAZY TOO, like you can;t stop talking and going nuts!?
I think I may have experienced something similar...DOPAMINE! LOL
Triple J
New member
well feeling anxious is something i have experienced wth selegiline + caffeine. however the bromo sides as they effect ME are something else again more of a hyperventilation /fainting type of feeling. once i became familiar with how my body reacted to it, i became aware of what was happening, could feel it coming on, and was able to control it somewhat mentally. by just chilling out, sitting down, putting wet towel over head, etc. extreme hypersenitivity to any stimuli is how i would describe it. that first time it hit me i didn't know what the hell was going on. it happened during leg day at the gym that didn't help matters. ended up hyperventilating to the point of passing out and getting a trip to the ER. thereafter i became more careful with my dosages, too.
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Anthony Roberts
Guest
- Ross - said:
That's incorrect. Prolactin "alone" does not determine how sensitive the HPTA is. Several factors are involved.
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Ross
Guest
Anthony Roberts said:
Studies indicate even when considering all other hormonal variables, prolactin is the greatest determinent in HPTA "SENSITIVITY".
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Anthony Roberts
Guest
- Ross - said:
Post the studies showing that is the greatest determinant in HPTA sensitivity.
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Ross
Guest
Anthony Roberts said:
Just read my entire piece on the subject, and LOOK CLOSELY AT THE STUDIES THAT FOLLOW:
-]
Tricking The HPTA
Imagine being able to run a 10 week cycle of testosterone with virtually NO suppression of endogenous testosterone production...
Several studies confirm that this very well MAY BE POSSIBLE! Simply by suppressing PROLACTIN.
Prolactin is a NASTY hormone: The major effect of increased prolactin is a decrease in normal levels of sex hormones — estrogen in women and testosterone in men.
Several studies have confirmed that by SUPRESSING PROLACTIN, you can TRICK the HPTA into thinking it is NOT ON CYCLE! You can DE-SENSITIZE the HPTA! When Prolactin was drastically reduced in the body, the HPTA remained relatively unaffected by TESTOSTERONE ADMINISTRATION! These results demonstrate that subnormal levels of PROLACTIN reduce the sensitivity of the hypothalamic-pituitary system to feedback inhibition by Testosterone.(Role of prolactin in the regulation of sensitivity of the hypothalamic-pituitary )
Furthermore, studies ALSO demonstrate that having HIGHER PROLACTIN levels while on cycle results in an INCREASED HPTA sensitivity, meaning FASTER SHUTDOWN OF THE HPTA! High levels of PROLACTIN appear to sensitize the hypothalamic-pituitary axis to the negative feedback effects of gonadal steroids. (Increased sensitivity to the negative feedback effects of testosterone induced by hyperprolactinemia in the adult male rat--McNeilly AS, Sharpe RM, Fraser HM.)
This all makes tremendous sense, as DECA and TRENBOLONE are the MOST suppressive AAS, and they bind AVIDLY to the progesterone receptor, drastically increasing PROLACTIN! This is why the HPTA shuts down! AND QUICKLY, as we can see from the graph below.
You can see from the chart above that a single 100mg injection of Deca caused a total (100%) reduction of natural testosterone levels, and it took approximately a full month to return those testosterone levels just to baseline! Just one shot!
In my experience with using Cabergoline(which suppresses prolactin), I can only confirm that this may have GENUINE REAL-WORLD APPLICABILITY. Not only does my libido go through the ROOF, my testicles mysteriously seem LARGER while on cycle. I also seem to experience VERY powerful orgasms and a MUCH shorter recovery time in between sexual sessions. I have personally never used DECA or TREN, but many of my friends and colleagues who HAVE, reported HUGE increases in libido and testicular mass while using either compound with CABERGOLINE! Increases in libido on DECA and TREN? Yep...
Let's take a closer look at some of these studies!
Role of prolactin in the regulation of sensitivity of the hypothalamic-pituitary system to steroid feedback.
Bartke A,
Matt KS,
Steger RW,
Clayton RN,
Chandrashekar V,
Smith MS.
Department of Physiology, Southern Illinois University, School of Medicine, Carbondale 62901.
During sexual maturation, pituitary gonadotropins stimulate the gonads to produce increasing amounts of biologically active steroids and yet gonadotropin release does not become suppressed until concentrations of sex hormones, LH and FSH, in peripheral circulation stabilizes at a higher adult level. There is a substantial amount of evidence that in many mammals, this transition from prepubertal to adult level of activity of the pituitary-gonadal axis is associated with a reduction in the sensitivity of the hypothalamic-adenohypophyseal system to negative feedback of gonadal steroids. In the female, these changes are accompanied by the appearance of positive estrogen feedback on gonadotropin release. In seasonal breeders, annual transitions between the periods of gonadal activity and quiescence are associated with corresponding shifts in the sensitivity to steroid feedback. Peripheral levels of pituitary prolactin (PRL) typically increase during sexual maturation and exhibit large seasonal fluctuations in response to changes in photoperiod and ambient temperature. We propose that PRL is one of the factors which regulate the sensitivity of gonadotropin release to gonadal steroid feedback. In hyperprolactinemic women, responsiveness to negative estrogen feedback increases, while LH response to positive estrogen feedback is reduced or absent. In hyperprolactinemic men, both LH and testosterone levels are reduced, implying increased sensitivity of LH release to negative testosterone feedback. In the male rat, both physiological amounts of PRL and experimentally-induced hyperprolactinemia increase the ability of exogenous testosterone to suppress LH and FSH release. Different regulatory mechanisms appear to operate in the seasonally breeding male golden hamster, in which short photoperiod causes concomitant suppression of PRL, LH, FSH and testosterone release. In this species, pharmacologic suppression of PRL release leads to increased responsiveness of plasma gonadotropin levels to negative feedback effects of testosterone, while PRL-secreting ectopic pituitary transplants exert an opposite effect. We have examined some of the suspected mechanisms of PRL modulation of testosterone feedback in male golden hamsters. In immature animals, the amount of cytoplasmic androgen receptors in the anterior pituitary was decreased by mild hyperprolactinemia and increased by treatment with bromocriptine, an inhibitor of PRL release. Bromocriptine increased pituitary androgen binding also in adult hamsters. These findings would imply that PRL modulates the responsiveness to negative steroid feedback at the pituitary level.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 400 WORDS)
PMID: 3324676 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Prolactin modulates the gonadotropin response to the negative feedback effect of testosterone in immature male rats.
Chandrashekar V,
Bartke A,
Sellers K.
The effects of hyperprolactinemia (hyperPRL) and hypoprolactinemia (hypoPRL) on pituitary gonadotropin secretion and the feedback sensitivity to testosterone (T) were evaluated in immature male rats. At 34 days of age, rats were divided into three groups: group 1, controls, injected with oil; group 2, treated with bromocriptine mesylate (CB-154; 250 micrograms in oil/rat X day); and group 3, subjected to the transplantation of one pituitary from an adult female rat under the kidney capsule and treated with oil. The treatments were continued for 14 days. On day 8, each of these groups were further divided into three subgroups: intact, castrated, and castrated plus T treated. T treatment consisted of injection of T propionate (TP; 50 micrograms in oil/rat) on alternate days starting immediately after castration. Blood samples were obtained by cardiac puncture throughout the study. Plasma PRL levels were significantly reduced by CB-154 treatment and significantly increased by the pituitary graft (P less than 0.001). In intact immature male rats, hyper- or hypoPRL did not affect plasma LH levels, whereas hyperPRL reduced (P less than 0.01) plasma FSH concentrations. The postcastration increase in circulating LH levels was significantly increased (P less than 0.001) in rats treated with CB-154 24 h after castration. Moreover, the suppressive effects of TP on plasma LH and FSH levels were significantly (P less than 0.05) attenuated in hypoPRL rats. In pituitary-grafted rats, effects of castration and TP replacement on plasma LH levels did not differ from those in control rats. These results demonstrate that subnormal levels of PRL reduce the sensitivity of the hypothalamic-pituitary system to feedback inhibition by T. In contrast to previous findings in the adult rats, acute hyperPRL in immature male rats did not affect the negative feedback action of T on gonadotropin secretion.
PMID: 3100279 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
1: Biol Reprod. 1987 Feb;36(1):138-47. Links
Effects of hyperprolactinemia on the control of luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone secretion in the male rat.
Smith MS,
Bartke A.
Experiments were conducted to determine the effects of acute hyperprolactinemia (hyperPRL) on the control of luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone secretion in male rats. Exposure to elevated levels of prolactin from the time of castration (1 mg ovine prolactin 2 X daily) greatly attenuated the post-castration rise in LH observed 3 days after castration. By 7 days after castration, LH concentrations in the prolactin-treated animals approached the levels observed in control animals. HyperPRL had no effect on the postcastration rise in FSH. Pituitary responsiveness to gonadotropin hormone-releasing hormone (GnRH), as assessed by LH responses to an i.v. bolus of 25 ng GnRH, was only minimally effected by hperPRL at 3 and 7 days postcastration. LH responses were similar at all time points after GnRH in control and prolactin-treated animals, except for the peak LH responses, which were significantly smaller in the prolactin-treated animals. The effects of hyperPRL were examined further by exposing hemipituitaries in vitro from male rats to 6-min pulses of GnRH (5 ng/ml) every 30 min for 4 h. HyperPRL had no effect on basal LH release in vitro, on GnRH-stimulated LH release, or on pituitary LH concentrations in hemipituitaries from animals that were intact, 3 days postcastration, or 7 days postcastration. However, net GnRH-stimulated release of FSH was significantly higher by pituitaries from hyperprolactinemic, castrated males. To assess indirectly the effects of hyperPRL on GnRH release, males were subjected to electrical stimulation of the arcuate nucleus/median eminence (ARC/ME) 3 days postcastration. The presence of elevated levels of prolactin not only suppressed basal LH secretion but reduced the LH responses to electrical stimulation by 50% when compared to the LH responses in control castrated males. These results suggest that acute hyperPRL suppresses LH secretion but not FSH secretion. Although pituitary responsiveness is somewhat attenuated in hyperprolactinemic males, as assessed in vivo, it is normal when pituitaries are exposed to adequate amounts of GnRH in vitro. Thus, the effects of hyperPRL on pituitary responsiveness appear to be minimal, especially if the pituitary is exposed to an adequate GnRH stimulus. The suppression of basal LH secretion in vivo most likely reflects inadequate endogenous GnRH secretion. The greatly reduced LH responses after electrical stimulation in hyperprolactinemic males exposed to prolactin suggest further that hyperPRL suppresses GnRH secretion.
PMID: 3105612 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
1: Endocrinology. 1984 Oct;115(4):1506-10. Links
Does prolactin modify testosterone feedback in the hamster? Pituitary grafts alter the ability of testosterone to suppress luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone release in castrated male hamsters.
Bartke A,
Matt KS,
Siler-Khodr TM,
Soares MJ,
Talamantes F,
Goldman BD,
Hogan MP,
Hebert A.
Adult male golden hamsters maintained in a long photoperiod (14 h of light and 10 h of darkness) or in a short photoperiod (5 h of light and 19 h of darkness for 7 weeks) were castrated and either given one anterior pituitary transplant under the kidney capsule or sham-operated. Additional animals were castrated and grafted or sham-grafted at the time of transfer to the short photoperiod. Starting 2 weeks after castration, all animals were injected three times a week with 20 micrograms testosterone propionate (TP). After 3 weeks, the dose of TP was increased to 80 micrograms and, after an additional 2 weeks, to 320 micrograms per injection. Blood samples were collected 2 weeks after castration and 1 day after the last injection of 20, 80, and 320 micrograms TP. Short photoperiod reduced and pituitary grafts increased plasma PRL levels. Plasma testosterone levels were related to the dose of injected TP, but were not influenced by photoperiod or pituitary transplants. Before the onset of TP injections, plasma LH and FSH levels in grafted and sham-grafted hamsters did not differ. In each of the three photoperiod conditions, injections of TP were consistently less effective in suppressing plasma gonadotropin levels in pituitary-grafted animals than in sham-grafted controls. These results indicate that PRL modulates the effects of exogenous testosterone on LH and FSH release in adult castrated male golden hamsters, this effect of PRL is due to reducing the sensitivity of the hypothalamic-pituitary system to feedback inhibition by testosterone, and suppression of pituitary PRL release in short photoperiod may be partially responsible for the concomitant increase in the sensitivity of LH and FSH release to inhibition by testosterone.
PMID: 6434293 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
1: Adv Exp Med Biol. 1987;219:153-75. Links
Role of prolactin in the regulation of sensitivity of the hypothalamic-pituitary system to steroid feedback.
Bartke A,
Matt KS,
Steger RW,
Clayton RN,
Chandrashekar V,
Smith MS.
Department of Physiology, Southern Illinois University, School of Medicine, Carbondale 62901.
During sexual maturation, pituitary gonadotropins stimulate the gonads to produce increasing amounts of biologically active steroids and yet gonadotropin release does not become suppressed until concentrations of sex hormones, LH and FSH, in peripheral circulation stabilizes at a higher adult level. There is a substantial amount of evidence that in many mammals, this transition from prepubertal to adult level of activity of the pituitary-gonadal axis is associated with a reduction in the sensitivity of the hypothalamic-adenohypophyseal system to negative feedback of gonadal steroids. In the female, these changes are accompanied by the appearance of positive estrogen feedback on gonadotropin release. In seasonal breeders, annual transitions between the periods of gonadal activity and quiescence are associated with corresponding shifts in the sensitivity to steroid feedback. Peripheral levels of pituitary prolactin (PRL) typically increase during sexual maturation and exhibit large seasonal fluctuations in response to changes in photoperiod and ambient temperature. We propose that PRL is one of the factors which regulate the sensitivity of gonadotropin release to gonadal steroid feedback. In hyperprolactinemic women, responsiveness to negative estrogen feedback increases, while LH response to positive estrogen feedback is reduced or absent. In hyperprolactinemic men, both LH and testosterone levels are reduced, implying increased sensitivity of LH release to negative testosterone feedback. In the male rat, both physiological amounts of PRL and experimentally-induced hyperprolactinemia increase the ability of exogenous testosterone to suppress LH and FSH release. Different regulatory mechanisms appear to operate in the seasonally breeding male golden hamster, in which short photoperiod causes concomitant suppression of PRL, LH, FSH and testosterone release. In this species, pharmacologic suppression of PRL release leads to increased responsiveness of plasma gonadotropin levels to negative feedback effects of testosterone, while PRL-secreting ectopic pituitary transplants exert an opposite effect. We have examined some of the suspected mechanisms of PRL modulation of testosterone feedback in male golden hamsters. In immature animals, the amount of cytoplasmic androgen receptors in the anterior pituitary was decreased by mild hyperprolactinemia and increased by treatment with bromocriptine, an inhibitor of PRL release. Bromocriptine increased pituitary androgen binding also in adult hamsters. These findings would imply that PRL modulates the responsiveness to negative steroid feedback at the pituitary level.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 400 WORDS)
PMID: 3324676 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
1: Endocrinology. 1983 Jan;112(1):22-8. Links
Increased sensitivity to the negative feedback effects of testosterone induced by hyperprolactinemia in the adult male rat.
McNeilly AS, Sharpe RM, Fraser HM.
High plasma levels of PRL induced by transplants of two donor pituitaries under the kidney capsule of adult male rats resulted in a prolonged suppression of plasma levels of LH and FSH although testosterone levels were maintained within normal limits. Castration of rats with pituitary transplants resulted in a normal though delayed rise in serum levels of both LH and FSH to levels equivalent to those in normal castrated controls. This increase in gonadotropin levels occurred in spite of maintenance of elevated PRL levels. Two experiments were carried out in which testosterone was restored after castration by Silastic testosterone-containing implants of various lengths (Exp 1:60, 30, and 10 mm; Exp 2: 30, 20, 10, 5, and 2 mm). In both experiments 60- and 30-mm testosterone implants prevented the postcastration rise in LH and FSH in both control and hyperprolactinemic rats. However, although the shorter testosterone implants delayed this rise in control rats, levels of LH and FSH increased by 4 days and were not significantly different from castrated rats without testosterone implants by 15 days after castration. In contrast, this rise in gonadotropins was abolished or considerably delayed by the shorter implants in hyperprolactinemic rats, demonstrating an increase in sensitivity of the hypothalamic pituitary axis to the negative feedback effects of testosterone in these animals. These results suggest that 1) to maintain suppression of gonadotropin secretion in hyperprolactinemia high levels of PRL alone are insufficient and gonadal steroids are required, and 2) high levels of PRL appear to sensitize the hypothalamic-pituitary axis to the negative feedback effects of gonadal steroids.
PMID: 6401176 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
1: J Endocrinol. 1999 Feb;160(2):197-203. Links
The antiprogestin RU486 dissociates LH and FSH secretion in male rats:
evidence for direct action at the pituitary level.
Sanchez-Criado JE, Bellido C, Tebar M, Ruiz A, Gonzalez D.
Department of Physiology, Faculty of Medicine, University of Cordoba, Spain.
Administration of 4 mg of the antisteroid RU486 over 8 consecutive days to adult male rats dissociated in vivo and in vitro gonadotrophin secretion, increasing FSH and decreasing LH secretion. In subsequent experiments we evaluated the involvement of testicular or adrenal secretory products, as well as hypothalamic LHRH, in the effects of 4 consecutive days of RU486 treatment on the secretion of gonadotrophins. The first day of RU486 injection was designated day 1, subsequent days being numbered consecutively. Groups of rats injected with oil (0.2 ml) or RU486 (4 mg) were: (i) injected s.c. from day 1 to day 4 with the antiandrogen flutamide (10 mg/kg); (ii) bilateral orchidectomized (ORCH) on day 1; and (iii) bilateral adrenalectomized (ADX) on day 1. Controls were given flutamide vehicle or were sham operated. To ascertain whether the secretion of LHRH is involved in the effects of RU486 on gonadotrophin secretion, we measured the LHRH secretion into the pituitary stalk blood vessels at 1100 h on day 5 in oil- or RU486-treated rats. Additional oil- and RU486-treated rats were injected i.p. with 100 ng LHRH at 1000 h on day 5, or s.c. with 1 mg LHRH antagonist (LHRH-ANT) at 1000 h on days 2 and 4. Controls were given saline. All animals were decapitated at 1100 h on day 5, trunk blood collected and serum stored frozen until FSH, LH and testosterone assays.%While ADX had no effect on FSH and LH secretion in either oil- or RU486-treated rats, the removal of androgen negative feedback with flutamide treatment or by ORCH substantially increased serum levels of FSH and LH in both oil- and RU486-treated rats, and thus annulled the effects of RU486. No differences in pituitary stalk plasma LHRH concentrations were found between oil- and RU486-treated rats. Injection of LHRH increased serum FSH and LH concentrations in oil-treated rats but only, and to a lesser extent, LH concentrations in RU486-treated rats. Treatment with LHRH-ANT decreased serum concentrations of FSH and LH in both oil- and RU486-treated rats. These results suggest that RU486 inhibited LHRH-stimulated LH secretion at the pituitary level, and that FSH secretion increased in response to a reduction in the negative feedback of androgen.
Effects of hyper- and hypoprolactinemia on gonadotropin secretion, rat testicular luteinizing hormone/human chorionic gonadotropin receptors and testosterone production by isolated Leydig cells.
Waeber C, Reymond O, Reymond M, Lemarchand-Beraud T.
The effect of prolactin (Prl) on gonadotropin secretion, testicular luteinizing hormone (LH)/human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) receptors, and testosterone (T) production by isolated Leydig cells has been studied in 60-day-old rats treated for 4 days, 4 and 8 weeks with sulpiride (SLP), a dopaminergic antagonist, or for 4 days and 4 weeks with bromocriptine (CB), a dopaminergic agonist. Plasma Prl concentrations were significantly greater in the SLP groups (204 +/- 6 ng/ml) and lower in the CB groups (3.0 +/- 0.2 ng/ml) than those measured in the control groups (54 +/- 6 ng/ml). The plasma concentrations of gonadotropin were not affected by a 4-day treatment with SLP or CB, nor were they after a 4-week treatment with CB. However, the hyperprolactinemia induced by an 8-week treatment with SLP was associated with a reduced secretion of gonadotropin (LH, 16 +/- 4 vs. 35 +/- 6 ng/ml; FSH, 166 +/- 12 vs. 307 +/- 14 ng/ml). In SLP-induced hyperprolactinemia, a 30% increase in the density of the LH/hCG testicular binding sites was observed (178 +/- 12 fmol/mg protein), whereas a 60% decrease was measured in hypoprolactinemia (55 +/- 5 vs. control 133 +/- 5 fmol/mg protein). Plasma T levels were increased in 4-day and 4-week hyperprolactinemic animals (4.3 +/- 0.4 and 3.9 +/- 0.4 ng/ml, respectively), but returned to normal levels in the 8-week group (3.0 +/- 0.5 vs. C: 2.3 +/- 0.2 ng/ml). No T modifications were observed in hypoprolactinemic animals. Two distinct populations of Leydig cells (I and II) were obtained by centrifugation of dispersed testicular cells on a 0-45% continuous Metrizamide gradient. Both possess LH/hCG binding sites. However, the T production from Leydig cells of population II increased in the presence of hCG, whereas that of cell population I which also contain immature germinal cells did not respond. The basal and stimulated T secretions from cell populations I and II obtained from CB-treated animals were similar to controls, whereas from 4 days to 8 weeks of hyperprolactinemia, basal and hCG induced T productions from cell population II decreased progressively. These data show that hyperprolactinemia causes, in a time-dependent manner, a trophic effect on the density of LH/hCG testicular receptors; reduces basal and hCG-stimulated T production from isolated Leydig cells type II; and results in an elevated plasma T concentration which decreases with time. The latter suggests a slower T catabolism and/or an impaired peripheral conversion of T into 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Although hypoprolactinemia is associated with a marked reduction in testicular LH receptors, it does not affect T production.
PMID: 6299412 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE
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Anthony Roberts
Guest
None of those studies support your claim that prolactin is the greatest determinant in HPTA sensitivity. None even strongly suggest it. In fact, none even give reason to slightly think that prolactin is the greatest determinant in HPTA sensitivity. It's just another factor, at best; certainly not the greatest determinant.
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Ross
Guest
Anthony Roberts said:
"These findings would imply that PRL modulates the responsiveness to negative steroid feedback at the pituitary level"
-Role of prolactin in the regulation of sensitivity of the hypothalamic-pituitary system to steroid feedback.
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Anthony Roberts
Guest
- Ross - said:
That doesn't support your claim at all. Several other hormones do the same thing, and none could appropriately be called the major determining factor in HPTA sensitivity. Estrogen does that as well. Why isn't it the major determining factor? DHT does this same thing, as does aromatase and 5a-R. Why aren't they determining factors? What, in the literature, says that this thing is the end all be all, determining factor over the other hormones?
Just because something modulates another thing doesn't mean it's the determining factor. Far from it.
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Ross
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Tru
LMAO......man Ross never gives up. I told you on OLM and I will tell you here, your PCT theories have little, to No value at all.{especially as far as recovery is concerned.}
Your spewing false information that could possibly hurt people.....Do you have a nice physique ??? Sure{Still have not seen the legs though} however thats does nothing to prove your points.
You sir are a copy and paste guru, and thats why you have been banned on every board out there.{Its surely not just by chance}
However good luck with your endeavour.
Your spewing false information that could possibly hurt people.....Do you have a nice physique ??? Sure{Still have not seen the legs though} however thats does nothing to prove your points.
You sir are a copy and paste guru, and thats why you have been banned on every board out there.{Its surely not just by chance}
However good luck with your endeavour.
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Anthony Roberts
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muscleup said:
I think his PCT has value. It's exactly mine, but with some vitamins and supplements added...
No, No, AR.....Im not really talking about the PCT so much{I should have worded that better}, as Im really talking about a thread that he and I had going over on OLM....You would have to see it to believe it.
Saying shit like 100 mgs per day of d-bol does not shut one down, 40-60mgs of var is great and does not inhibit test production, how he has a very healthy HPTA but very rarely is ever clean, just many, many things of this nature that hold no water at all in the real world.
IMO he is dispensing out very bad advice...especially to those who are new to this type of stuff.
Saying shit like 100 mgs per day of d-bol does not shut one down, 40-60mgs of var is great and does not inhibit test production, how he has a very healthy HPTA but very rarely is ever clean, just many, many things of this nature that hold no water at all in the real world.
IMO he is dispensing out very bad advice...especially to those who are new to this type of stuff.
Anthony Roberts said:
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Anthony Roberts
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muscleup said:
I think I've been banned on like ...3 boards. Makes me kind of feel bad that he's been banned from more than me....although, admittedly, I wasn't banned for anything related to AAS information.
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Ross
Guest
Anthony Roberts said:
LOL
We are the original jedi
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Anthony Roberts
Guest
- Ross - said:
I was banned on SBI for exposing a security leak.
I was banned on AB when I posted something in my blog that the staff thought I ought not have.
I was banned on PM for bashing a sponsor who was later found out to have been producing a bunk product.
Thankfully, if you add up the numbers of all of those sites, they have less than half of the membership of the smallest site I write for.
Losers.
R
Ross
Guest
Anthony Roberts said:
I was banned at A-R for being a nutjob and challenging every staff member over there.
I was banned IFL for calling one of the mods a "jealous female".
I was banned at IT for being banned at A-R.
I was banned at Ology for being banned at IFL.
I was banned at OLM for exposing a SCAMMER that is a SPONSOR.
LOL
WE must be doin somethin right..
- Ross - said:I was banned at A-R for being a nutjob and challenging every staff member over there.
I was banned IFL for calling one of the mods a "jealous female".
I was banned at IT for being banned at A-R.
I was banned at Ology for being banned at IFL.
I was banned at OLM for exposing a SCAMMER that is a SPONSOR.
LOL
WE must be doin somethin right..
uumm you reveresed that source and board sponsor, dont come over here acting like a innocent virgin!
LIAR!
thats why you get baned across the boards LIAR LIAR LIAR!
Good guys dont get banned bro
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Anthony Roberts
Guest
georgie24 said:
Are you saying Marco and Ulter aren't good guys?
needtogetaas
New member
give it a rest already bro...you got a conspiracy theory for every one and every thing,from people that you say got busted that never did to so called "huge dilvery problems"that were just a one time deal,you come up with the most off the wall crap every other day about every other source on the boards and its kind off hard to beleive any thing you say..georgie24 said:
why are you such a hostile member...you and a few others seem to do nothing but lash out at every one and every thing daily and it gets old fast...
I did not know you were banned from AB, the owner of AB told me that you asked to have your account removed/Inactive because you were not getting your way over there...That was a long time ago so I do not really remember the details.--Actually I just checked on AB and No you were not banned--.
And Ross there is a big difference between you and AR....The info you give out is just plain wrong, and again holds very little water.
Ross are you still saying that 100mgs per day of d-bol does not supress the HPTA ??? Are you still saying that 40-60mgs of Var per day has no impact on the HPTA ???
Among other retarded ideas of yours.
And Ross there is a big difference between you and AR....The info you give out is just plain wrong, and again holds very little water.
Ross are you still saying that 100mgs per day of d-bol does not supress the HPTA ??? Are you still saying that 40-60mgs of Var per day has no impact on the HPTA ???
Among other retarded ideas of yours.
Anthony Roberts said:
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and who was this scammer ??? I know for a fact thats not why you were banned.
- Ross - said:I was banned at A-R for being a nutjob and challenging every staff member over there.
I was banned IFL for calling one of the mods a "jealous female".
I was banned at IT for being banned at A-R.
I was banned at Ology for being banned at IFL.
I was banned at OLM for exposing a SCAMMER that is a SPONSOR.
LOL
WE must be doin somethin right..
needtogetaas
New member
UnitedBodyBuilding Admin????? whats that????muscleup said:
needtogetaas
New member
seems like a lot of people in this thread have a lot of entrust in other boards....
needtogetaas
New member
and you will see that nether dose 35,000 of my other post...so dont try to makemuscleup said:This thread has nothing to do with Dermacrine so Im suprised your posting....LOL
a point that cant even begin to be proven....
needtogetaas
New member
35,960muscleup said:
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Ross
Guest
georgie24 said:
Why are you GEORGING the forum?
needtogetaas
New member
funny but its not even worth addressing any more.mis conspiracygeorgie24 said:
you got nothing and never will.so dont bother taking it there unless you do cuz i donr even have to tell you were it will land you.
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Ross
Guest
champion said:
NO, there are GUIDLINES, and EVERYONE should follow them...
Using testosterone as the base, using PCT, using ancillaries, etc.
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Ross
Guest
champion said:
There are over a DOZEN ways to skin a cat...
BUT surely...
There IS a MOST EFFECTIVE WAY to skin a cat.
needtogetaas
New member
true true...pore cat.- Ross - said:
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Anthony Roberts
Guest
champion said:
Right. Those are on person's guidelines. I work with people in the IFBB, and none of them follow a single guideline that Ross has posted. I work with Elite Powerlifters and none of them do either. They don't follow all of my guidelines, certainly (though they mostly do). My MMA fighter doesn't do anything that the Bodybuilders or powerlifters do. The women I work with (in the NPC and IFBB) follow drastically different guidelines than my men do. My older clients do things totally different than my younger ones. My drug tested athletes follow a totally unique protocol.
To say there is one best way to do something totally disregards the fact that people have different goals. When I work with someone, I take input from them, have them fill out a lengthy questionairre, and then discuss things with them on the phone. There is no cookie cutter approach that fits everyone. People run my pct with proviron, MyoGenX, etc, etc...they cut out the HCG sometimes and run it during the cycle instead, etc...
What I write in my books is what the compounds in question do, give some basic guidelines for what I think is most effective, and then the reader needs to put some effort in and figure out what they need to do personally.
Anything else is just one person's guidelines to do one thing the way it worked for them and their buddies, or whatever.
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Ross
Guest
Anthony Roberts said:
Well then that's not SKINNING a CAT...
That is PEELING an ORANGE, which is a DIFFERENT GOAL. But STILL, isn't there a BEST WAY to PEEL and ORANGE? YES!
There is an OPTIMAL WAY TO DO THINGS, for every goal: Skinning a cat, peeling an orange, buidling muscle mass, burning fat, gaining strength, building endurance, etc, etc, etc.
There IS a most effective way to do all of those things.
The optimal way of skinning said cat depends entirely on the individual cat......
There IS a most effective way to do all of those things,
And that optimal way of doing things varies from person to person.........cycle to cycle.....what you post is your optimal way.......the way I do my shit with my nutirion/training/gear usage yields the optimal results for myself........
There IS a most effective way to do all of those things,
And that optimal way of doing things varies from person to person.........cycle to cycle.....what you post is your optimal way.......the way I do my shit with my nutirion/training/gear usage yields the optimal results for myself........
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Anthony Roberts
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muscleup said:
Yeah..let me amend that...I asked to have my account removed because I was banned. As for getting my way there, they asked me to remove some information from my blog (which gets more views than their entire anabolic forum anyway); that they would unban me when I removed the info. I said I had planned to remove it anyway, but that now I wasn't going to fully remove it, because too many people were annoying me about it. So I asked to just have my account deleted instead.
So I think it's actually got nothing to do with me not getting my way, it had to do with them (some of the mods) not getting their way, I think...and thinking that (for whatever reason) what they think I should do matters more than a half squirt of piss (which it doesn't).
That being said, I like the owner of the site, and I think that he's a good dude (I've known him for a very long time...half a dozen years I think). Unfortunately, I left because his mods didn't get their way, for the most part, not the other way around. I find it odd, though, that the mods on AB actually care so much about "safety" or whatever, when they are mods on a site which was owned by a confidential informant for the federal government for two years, during which AB was used to set up members/sources for the federal government to arrest. I would think there were several back doors built in to the site, and that the government likely still has full access to everything the admin has (IPs, PMs, etc...).
Site was overhauled after the new owner took over{New server,New VB,everything}.....The DFG shit was unfortunate, but all the shit has been dead and gone.
So no there is no conspiracy theory there....If you would like you can take it up with the owner. I'm sure he knows more about the details of his board than any one of us do.
Regardless of what you think.
So no there is no conspiracy theory there....If you would like you can take it up with the owner. I'm sure he knows more about the details of his board than any one of us do.
Regardless of what you think.
Anthony Roberts said:
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ross= OWNED!
its ross's way or no way
fuck that man you can possible hurt someone with your Bullshit blanket cycles theories
i feel as if ross is overglorifying himself for his acomplishments ( if thats even him in pics) thus far and the testosterone has gone to his head
you see quadsweep or needsize,krishna,khemix fukkenshredded making a billion threads glorifying thier practices and applying pressure tactics to follow them?
ross if you want respect you have to earn it.
its ross's way or no way
fuck that man you can possible hurt someone with your Bullshit blanket cycles theories
i feel as if ross is overglorifying himself for his acomplishments ( if thats even him in pics) thus far and the testosterone has gone to his head
you see quadsweep or needsize,krishna,khemix fukkenshredded making a billion threads glorifying thier practices and applying pressure tactics to follow them?
ross if you want respect you have to earn it.
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Ross
Guest
georgie24 said:
LOL
Ok buddy.
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Anthony Roberts
Guest
muscleup said:
I would have thought the feds, who controlled that board for two full years, would have built in some backdoors. But if you say they haven't, and that's what you believe, then that's fine. I don't share that belief, personally. It is immaterial to me, as I don't break the law...regardless of how unsafe a site is, I'll be safe on it.
If you're the only person who posts and reposts your thoughts/articles/threads, then you're probably the only person who thinks they're good. I might link to an article of mine that has already been published, if I think it answers a question, but I'd never post it anywhere as it's own thread. It's kind of silly to fo that...no professionals ever do it, if you notice...
Anthony you know as well as I do that is nothing more than an assumption based on your thinking...No proof to back that up.
The site was actually Down for a very good while...and you hear of far more bust from sources who post on other boards than you do on AB.
You certainly had no problem bumping Tweak Labs over there who turned out to be a scammer in the end....and this was after the DFG fiasco. Personally If I thought a board had been compromised I wouldn't even go there, much less bump a source on there, and put my banners on it.
The site was actually Down for a very good while...and you hear of far more bust from sources who post on other boards than you do on AB.
You certainly had no problem bumping Tweak Labs over there who turned out to be a scammer in the end....and this was after the DFG fiasco. Personally If I thought a board had been compromised I wouldn't even go there, much less bump a source on there, and put my banners on it.
Anthony Roberts said:
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Anthony Roberts
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muscleup said:
Not only did I back someone who eventually turned scammer (which was well after I stopped backing him, by the way), but previously I also protected the identity and details of a source (landing me in prison) who later went scammer. After Tweak's first issue, I asked to be removed from his list of references and offered to refund anyone with a previously outstanding order (BMF2, a mod on AB will confirm this). I've never heard of anyone doing anything even remotely like that. When I mess up, I make things right.
If you are comfortable posting on a site which was controlled by feds for 2 full years, that's certainly within your rights. I'm sure that when the feds totally control a site, and a new owner takes over, they pack up shop and never return. Seems totally reasonable to me. I don't have any proof that there are still feds on that board...other than the fact that it was totally under their control, in every way, shape, and form for two straight years. Other than that, there's no reason to think they're still there.
Hell...I post on sites I know for a 100% certainty that feds monitor. So do you. But I don't do anything illegal, and that's why I don't give a shit.
As far as busts...I really don't care about that. I have a prescription and busts don't effect me any more than by virtue of the simple fact that I hate to see people get busted for something I think ought to be legal.
needtogetaas
New member
pressure tactics lol your the king of that shit bro...pressure tactics and conspiracy theory's you take the grand prize.georgie24 said:
Again all assumption.....BMF and I know each other very well, and I can promise you neither one of us would be there if that were the case.
You are entitled to your opinions as much as I am mine.
I have a script as well....so those type of things dont really concern me either.
You are entitled to your opinions as much as I am mine.
I have a script as well....so those type of things dont really concern me either.
Anthony Roberts said:
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Anthony Roberts
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muscleup said:
So why are you posting with an anonymous IP right now?
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Anthony Roberts
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muscleup said:
So why do you operate a website which is encrypted and private, if you don't care about this kind thing?
UBB was just an idea between myself and a friend.....Something Just different, a little off the beaten path is all. Hell, its a tiny, tiny board, with discussion only. Talk to PECS like you did before and he will tell you again I have nothing to hide....BMF can confirm this as well.
Again why was my IP being looked at if I did nothing wrong ?
Again why was my IP being looked at if I did nothing wrong ?
Anthony Roberts said:
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Anthony Roberts
Guest
muscleup said:
Great. Post a pic of your face.
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Anthony Roberts
Guest
muscleup said:Sure I'll get right on that one....Im ugly anyways.
It's all good. I was just getting to a point....I think you're basically a good dude...but it's another level when you say you've got nothing to hide...as opposed to actually having your face, your name, and your address on the internet (like me).
It's difficult to believe someone has nothing to hide...when they hide so much....
You know what I mean? I used to freak out when I saw my real name/address (actually my parents address on the 'net)....now...I couldn't care less. I'm legit, and actually have nothing to hide. I'll post my address, face, etc..
There's a huge difference between saying "I've got nothing to hide", and actually laying your ass on the line and posting personal info, face pics, etc...
Anyway...I actually think you're a good dude (once again)....it's a shame you didn't take me up on giving me a ring on the phone when I asked a mutual friend to have you call me...
I don't ever recall getting that message....I see what your saying. However I would not post a pic of myself online regardless of AAS or not....Its just not my style. I have been online for years, and I try to treat everyone with some sort of respect, and that includes you as well. We dont see eye to eye on alot, but that does not mean we cant respect one another.
As long as Im treated with respect,,,,I try to give it right back... Ok, now back to picking on Ross and his half baked theroies....LMAO
As long as Im treated with respect,,,,I try to give it right back... Ok, now back to picking on Ross and his half baked theroies....LMAO
Anthony Roberts said:It's all good. I was just getting to a point....I think you're basically a good dude...but it's another level when you say you've got nothing to hide...as opposed to actually having your face, your name, and your address on the internet (like me).
It's difficult to believe someone has nothing to hide...when they hide so much....
You know what I mean? I used to freak out when I saw my real name/address (actually my parents address on the 'net)....now...I couldn't care less. I'm legit, and actually have nothing to hide. I'll post my address, face, etc..
There's a huge difference between saying "I've got nothing to hide", and actually laying your ass on the line and posting personal info, face pics, etc...
Anyway...I actually think you're a good dude (once again)....it's a shame you didn't take me up on giving me a ring on the phone when I asked a mutual friend to have you call me...
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