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The 25 MOST ASKED (and misunderstood) Questions On EF. Don't Ask Again!

Nelson Montana

Chairman of Board
Chairman Member
PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

PCT For a New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!




The History Of Post Cycle Therapy


Look at Arnold. Look at Zane. Look at Dave Draper, Larry Scott, Serge Nubret, Lou Ferrigno, Sergio Oliva. All monsters. All better than you and I will ever hope to be. And they all had one thing in common. They never did PCT. Why? Because there wasn't any.

Right off the bat, this shows the importance of keeping cycle dosage and duration sane. But if these guys had no problems, why is PCT considered so essential? It all started in the 80's. That's when dosages started to climb and an interesting phenomenon occurred. Guys were getting gyno. Holy shit! What to do? Leave it to the madman genius Dan Duchaine to discover the answer -- a drug designed to shrink tumors in the breast -- Nolvadex. Before long, everyone included Nolva. Sometimes during a cycle and always afterward when the T/e ratio was off kilter. It worked. But at a price. Nolva killed gains, and often killed libido. But it was better than having tits.
And before long it considered the safe and responsible thing to do.

But then there were more theories. (Also from Dan. The man was brilliant).

Clomid was similar to Nolva but not site specific. It was an estrogen that competed for e receptors, therefore "eating up" excess estro before it could do its damage. There were a few problems with Clomid though. It was very unreliable. If one's estrogen wasn't very high, it would ADD estrogen, thus making the symptoms of shutdown worse. Clomid also had negative side effects from emotional distress to vision problems. And in many people, it just didn't work. I spoke personally to Dan about this and although he admitted that Nolva wasn't a very good drug, (and ironically didn't use it, even though he "discovered" it) he had higher hopes for Clomid. I think in time Dan would have changed his mind on this one. He often did, not out of capriciousness, but out of open-mindedness. And he would never be opposed to a better option. Clomid is very "hit or miss." And it misses often.

But something happened. It was too late to stop the rumor wagon which had begun right at the dawn of the internet. Now there were self professed gurus everywhere and the proliferation of the Nolva/clomid PCT myth had begun. And it wouldn't die.

Well, I'm here to kill it once and for all.

I always felt Proviron was a better choice to combat estrogen simply for the fact that it's comprised of DHT, which can not aromatize. It also lowers SHBG, which prevents aromatization. So, in essence, it stops the problem before it starts. This was the premise behind UNLEASHED. Lower SHBG and you have more free testosterone without any chance of increased estrogen. (Pretty clever, me thinks). Proviron is still better than Nolva or Clomid, but there have been advances that are better still.

Drugs designed specifically to prevent aromatization hit the market in the 90's. Among them, Arimidex became the most popular due to it's ability to also increase free T and not affect libido. Recently aromasin has become very popular. Both are good, though I find aromasin a little more difficult to dose since it's so strong. A quarter of a tab can still be too much. Nevertheless, both these drugs are vastly superior to Nolva and Clomid. So why do people still take them? Old habits die hard. And old gurus don't know when to shut the fuck up. So we now have people still using these out dated drugs long after there are better alternatives.

Another advancement is the addition of natural subsatnces which help in the restoration of the HPTA. That includes natural T stimulation and estrogen management. After years of extensive research I designed two supplements -- UNLEASHED and POST CYCLE which do just that. Selling supplements designed for hardcore bodybuilders was a hard sell but over the years more and more guys have come around. The stuff works. Works well. Works safely. And works to replace outdated drugs. (I think Dan would be proud). Another sponser on this board has a product called Dermacrine Sustain which also has natty anti e's and has been shown to be very effective for controlling estro and restoring sexual function.

So here is the 2008 procedure for optimum PCT in 3 steps. It will help you recover. It will help you keep your gains. And it will do it without side effects.


ONE: Use HCG.

This is not a cure -- merely something to shock the testes out of slumber and get things moving again. Doing more than is needed is a waste. I find 3 days of 500 ius gets the boys back and that's all that you should expect from this drug.

TWO: Use Arimidex

Unless you cycle consisted of non aromatized compounds. (VERY IMPORTANT! KNOW WHAT YOU"RE USING!) A little dexx will keep e under control.

THREE: Use UNLEASHED, POST CYCLE, and Derma Sustain.

POST CYCLE removes "bad" estrones, repairs liver function and increases erectile function.

Sustain also works to lower estrogen from a separate pathway.

UNLEASHED increases Free T, allowing the body to produce more on its own.
Also impoves libido.

These compounds (HCG, dexx and the supps) also work very well when on HRT to maintain a healthy balance between drug assistance and natural output.

That's it. There it is. Nothing else you need to know. Nothing, nada, zip, zilch, niente, nyet. THIS is the wave of the future and it's long overdue.

PCT has come a long way in the last 20 years. Let's not have continued casualties from archaic techniques. Do it smart. Do it right. And do it every time.
__________________
.


Author of...

"THE BODYBUILDING TRUTH"

and

"BOTTOMLINE BODYBUILDING."


Available at Elite Fitness



Increases "Free" Testosterone by Lowering S H B G.


Also available --

VIGOR -- The Blood Builder.

POST CYCLE -- Never Use Clomid Again!

BIG BLAST -- The Serious Mass Builder

ZIP -- Permanent Fat Loss in One Month

DX7 -- The Most Potent Micronutrient Formula

DEFINITION -- For Fast Water Weight Loss
Online&Invisible
 
Last edited:
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

Sorry but you can not take an action in a thread started by an Administrator or a Chairman Member! If you need any post in this post moderated, please ask thread starter or an administrator in private to take care of this message. Thank you


You have to sticky it yourself bro. You do know you can sticky a thread.
 
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

needtogetaas said:
Sorry but you can not take an action in a thread started by an Administrator or a Chairman Member! If you need any post in this post moderated, please ask thread starter or an administrator in private to take care of this message. Thank you


You have to sticky it yourself bro. You do know you can sticky a thread.

Ha! Really? I had no idea, nor do I know how. Anyway, I'll let the members respond and work on it later.
 
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

Nelson Montana said:
Ha! Really? I had no idea, nor do I know how. Anyway, I'll let the members respond and work on it later.
Click on thread tools. The option sticky thread is open to you. You can sticky any thread you want. Not just your own.
 
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

There is only one problem, I dont have access to either Unleashed, Post Cycle, or Derma Sustain.

When its shipped to Norway, it gets stopped by some people i dont know what is named in english. They are similar to the police (And yes, Norwegian politics are fucked).
 
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

needtogetaas said:
Click on thread tools. The option sticky thread is open to you. You can sticky any thread you want. Not just your own.

Cool. Thanks bro.

Hensklevia. That sucks.
 
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

I am always open to new ideas Nelson but also stuck in my ways when I use a method that has worked over and over and over again.

However I do have a question for the hair challenged. 1) U call out proviron as a better choice but dont list it on steps 1-3. 2) Should the folks that are worried about hair loss substitute it with something else?

It could be complete bullshit but I thought I remember Arnold being interview about the topic and he said how he used aas for pre-contest under the care of a physician and I thought there was some mention of a "protocol" that the doctor did when he came off. It surely wasn't called PCT. Any ideas?
 
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

8and20 said:
I am always open to new ideas Nelson but also stuck in my ways when I use a method that has worked over and over and over again.

.................................................................

I think that too is a misconception. Sometimes people recover no matter what, but if they didn't something specific, they think THAT is what helped. Having said that, clomid helps some people. Then again, leeches helped some people. That doesn't make it the optimum choice.

..................................................................................

However I do have a question for the hair challenged. 1) U call out proviron as a better choice but dont list it on steps 1-3. 2) Should the folks that are worried about hair loss substitute it with something else?

................................................................................

I said Proviron was a better choice for recovery. Hair is a separate issue. The recommendations I made does not include Proviron.


........................................................................

It could be complete bullshit but I thought I remember Arnold being interview about the topic and he said how he used aas for pre-contest under the care of a physician and I thought there was some mention of a "protocol" that the doctor did when he came off. It surely wasn't called PCT. Any ideas?
......................................................................

Yeah, it was called tapering off from a reasonable dose and duration on medically prescribed drugs designed for human use.

..
 
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

how are u dosing the adex for pct? i took every other day while on, is that sufficient for a pct?
 
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

daville said:
how are u dosing the adex for pct? i took every other day while on, is that sufficient for a pct?

+1 and when are you dosing? On cycle or PCT?
 
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

Solid post bro.
 
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

Chocolate_Thunder said:
+1 and when are you dosing? On cycle or PCT?


Adex on cycle is dose depending on how androgenic the cycle is. Obviously dbol and test is going to require more than var and primo. (Actually var and primo would require no anti e at all). 1/2 tab every 3 days post cycle is usually more than enough in most cases when used along with the supps.
 
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

Nelson Montana said:
Adex on cycle is dose depending on how androgenic the cycle is. Obviously dbol and test is going to require more than var and primo. (Actually var and primo would require no anti e at all). 1/2 tab every 3 days post cycle is usually more than enough in most cases when used along with the supps.

As usual solid post Nelson. Good to have you back! :)
 
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

Nelson Montana said:
Adex on cycle is dose depending on how androgenic the cycle is. Obviously dbol and test is going to require more than var and primo. (Actually var and primo would require no anti e at all). 1/2 tab every 3 days post cycle is usually more than enough in most cases when used along with the supps.

That is COMPLETELY WRONG, Arimidex dosage depends on how ESTROGENIC a cycle is, not ANDROGENIC.
 
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

Ross said:
That is COMPLETELY WRONG, Arimidex dosage depends on how ESTROGENIC a cycle is, not ANDROGENIC.

As a rule, the higher the Androgenic component, the more likely conversion into estrogen will take place
 
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

8and20 said:
As a rule, the higher the Androgenic component, the more likely conversion into estrogen will take place
thats not true, -- masteron and tren for example

-
 
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

Nelson Montana said:
I always felt Proviron was a better choice to combat estrogen simply for the fact that it's comprised of DHT, which can not aromatize. It also lowers SHBG, which prevents aromatization....

nelson, is this correct? yes, proviron lowers shbg, but as far as I knew, SHBG has nothing to do with preventing aromatization.

my understanding was that proviron decreased estrogen because it acted as a weak aromatase inhibitor due to its strong binding affinity for the aromatase enzyme
 
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

Mavafanculo said:
thats not true, -- masteron and tren for example

-

i guess i should have been more specific and not so general.

tren is a nandrolone and nandrolones in general have a low rate of conversion to estrogen (about 20% i think) and the other is a DHT derivative which primo is also a member of both of which lack the necessary trait to convert to estrogen and actually have some anti-e properties.

but from what i have seen mast & primo have about a 2:1 anabolic to androgenic ratio as opposed to test which is 1:1 which still is in line with my previous sweeping generalization. i guess the only exceptions off the top of my head are the nandrolones (there may be more). i do think it still is a fairly decent rule of thumb but we should always consider dosages and compounds in a case by case basis.
 
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

Mavafanculo said:
nelson, is this correct? yes, proviron lowers shbg, but as far as I knew, SHBG has nothing to do with preventing aromatization.

my understanding was that proviron decreased estrogen because it acted as a weak aromatase inhibitor due to its strong binding affinity for the aromatase enzyme

proviron winny primo & mast all have weak anti-e properties but i do also think nelson is correct as well about the SHBG. i think i recall reading something about it in and endocrinology article. perhaps nelson can enlighten us further.
 
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

It has NOTHING to do with HOW ANDROGENIC a compound is, it's about how ESTROGENIC a compound is.

Dianabol, Testosterone and Nandrolone aromatize to estrogen.

Primobolan, Anavar, and Winstrol do NOT.
 
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

Ross said:
It has NOTHING to do with HOW ANDROGENIC a compound is, it's about how ESTROGENIC a compound is.

Dianabol, Testosterone and Nandrolone aromatize to estrogen.

Primobolan, Anavar, and Winstrol do NOT.


You're missing the point bro. 8and 20 got it right. High andros tend to convert to estro. At any rate, you know what I mean. And Nandros tend to increase prog. Primo is hardy highly androgenic. I'll elaborate more later but I gotta run for now.
 
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

Nelson Montana said:
You're missing the point bro. 8and 20 got it right. High andros tend to convert to estro. At any rate, you know what I mean. And Nandros tend to increase prog. Primo is hardy highly androgenic. I'll elaborate more later but I gotta run for now.

Trenbolone, Halotestin, and Masteron are the MOST androgenic steroids that exist and NONE of them aromatize to estrogen, and in fact, Halo and Masteron(and Proviron as well) actually possess ANTI-Aromatase activity.
 
Last edited:
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

so for a test prop and tren ace what would your doses of armidex be like if they were in liquid form. .5mg 2x a week?
 
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

Ross said:
Trenbolone, Halotestin, and Masteron are the MOST androgenic steroids that exist and NONE of them aromatize to estrogen, and in fact, Halo and Masteron(and Proviron as well) actually possess ANTI-Aromatase activity.

Okay, well Mast and Proviron are DHT derivitives which of course don't aromatize. Though Proviron won;t do much in terms of muscle growth. Tren is a nandrolone. Halo -- good call, forgot about that. Also works similarly to a DHT compound. I overlooked it because it's so toxic I don't know of anyone who uses it anymore and it isn't even big with UG labs. And yes, lower SHBG puts you in a better environment to resist aromatization.

So we can nit-pik here but the point remains. The amount of dexx you need depends on how much the compounds in a cycle aromatize.
 
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

Nelson Montana said:
.......... And yes, lower SHBG puts you in a better environment to resist aromatization.

by what mechanism?

-
 
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

Nelson Montana said:
PCT For a New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!




The History Of Post Cycle Therapy


Look at Arnold. Look at Zane. Look at Dave Draper, Larry Scott, Serge Nubret, Lou Ferrigno, Sergio Oliva. All monsters. All better than you and I will ever hope to be. And they all had one thing in common. They never did PCT. Why? Because there wasn't any.

Right off the bat, this shows the importance of keeping cycle dosage and duration sane. But if these guys had no problems, why is PCT considered so essential? It all started in the 80's. That's when dosages started to climb and an interesting phenomenon occurred. Guys were getting gyno. Holy shit! What to do? Leave it to the madman genius Dan Duchaine to discover the answer -- a drug designed to shrink tumors in the breast -- Nolvadex. Before long, everyone included Nolva. Sometimes during a cycle and always afterward when the T/e ratio was off kilter. It worked. But at a price. Nolva killed gains, and often killed libido. But it was better than having tits.
And before long it considered the safe and responsible thing to do.

But then there were more theories. (Also from Dan. The man was brilliant).

Clomid was similar to Nolva but not site specific. It was an estrogen that competed for e receptors, therefore "eating up" excess estro before it could do its damage. There were a few problems with Clomid though. It was very unreliable. If one's estrogen wasn't very high, it would ADD estrogen, thus making the symptoms of shutdown worse. Clomid also had negative side effects from emotional distress to vision problems. And in many people, it just didn't work. I spoke personally to Dan about this and although he admitted that Nolva wasn't a very good drug, (and ironically didn't use it, even though he "discovered" it) he had higher hopes for Clomid. I think in time Dan would have changed his mind on this one. He often did, not out of capriciousness, but out of open-mindedness. And he would never be opposed to a better option. Clomid is very "hit or miss." And it misses often.

But something happened. It was too late to stop the rumor wagon which had begun right at the dawn of the internet. Now there were self professed gurus everywhere and the proliferation of the Nolva/clomid PCT myth had begun. And it wouldn't die.

Well, I'm here to kill it once and for all.

I always felt Proviron was a better choice to combat estrogen simply for the fact that it's comprised of DHT, which can not aromatize. It also lowers SHBG, which prevents aromatization. So, in essence, it stops the problem before it starts. This was the premise behind UNLEASHED. Lower SHBG and you have more free testosterone without any chance of increased estrogen. (Pretty clever, me thinks). Proviron is still better than Nolva or Clomid, but there have been advances that are better still.

Drugs designed specifically to prevent aromatization hit the market in the 90's. Among them, Arimidex became the most popular due to it's ability to also increase free T and not affect libido. Recently aromasin has become very popular. Both are good, though I find aromasin a little more difficult to dose since it's so strong. A quarter of a tab can still be too much. Nevertheless, both these drugs are vastly superior to Nolva and Clomid. So why do people still take them? Old habits die hard. And old gurus don't know when to shut the fuck up. So we now have people still using these out dated drugs long after there are better alternatives.

Another advancement is the addition of natural subsatnces which help in the restoration of the HPTA. That includes natural T stimulation and estrogen management. After years of extensive research I designed two supplements -- UNLEASHED and POST CYCLE which do just that. Selling supplements designed for hardcore bodybuilders was a hard sell but over the years more and more guys have come around. The stuff works. Works well. Works safely. And works to replace outdated drugs. (I think Dan would be proud). Another sponser on this board has a product called Dermacrine Sustain which also has natty anti e's and has been shown to be very effective for controlling estro and restoring sexual function.

So here is the 2008 procedure for optimum PCT in 3 steps. It will help you recover. It will help you keep your gains. And it will do it without side effects.


ONE: Use HCG.

This is not a cure -- merely something to shock the testes out of slumber and get things moving again. Doing more than is needed is a waste. I find 3 days of 500 ius gets the boys back and that's all that you should expect from this drug.

TWO: Use Arimidex

Unless you cycle consisted of non aromatized compounds. (VERY IMPORTANT! KNOW WHAT YOU"RE USING!) A little dexx will keep e under control.

THREE: Use UNLEASHED, POST CYCLE, and Derma Sustain.

POST CYCLE removes "bad" estrones, repairs liver function and increases erectile function.

Sustain also works to lower estrogen from a separate pathway.

UNLEASHED increases Free T, allowing the body to produce more on its own.
Also impoves libido.

These compounds (HCG, dexx and the supps) also work very well when on HRT to maintain a healthy balance between drug assistance and natural output.

That's it. There it is. Nothing else you need to know. Nothing, nada, zip, zilch, niente, nyet. THIS is the wave of the future and it's long overdue.

PCT has come a long way in the last 20 years. Let's not have continued casualties from archaic techniques. Do it smart. Do it right. And do it every time.
__________________
.


Author of...

"THE BODYBUILDING TRUTH"

and

"BOTTOMLINE BODYBUILDING."


Available at Elite Fitness



Increases "Free" Testosterone by Lowering S H B G.


Also available --

VIGOR -- The Blood Builder.

POST CYCLE -- Never Use Clomid Again!

BIG BLAST -- The Serious Mass Builder

ZIP -- Permanent Fat Loss in One Month

DX7 -- The Most Potent Micronutrient Formula

DEFINITION -- For Fast Water Weight Loss
Online&Invisible


Good post nelson. Alot of good info in there. I will be using your products for my PCT on my Next run. Thanks for a good thread.
 
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

Mavafanculo said:
by what mechanism?

-


Good question. Simply put, SHBG binds testosterone and dihydrotestoserone, making both less available. With lower free T and DHT the T/e ratio gets out of whack. So technically, low SHBG doesn't STOP e, it just allows for a better T/e ratio and allows for more dihydro T which can not convert to estro.
 
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

Nelson Montana said:
Good question. Simply put, SHBG binds testosterone and dihydrotestoserone, making both less available. With lower free T and DHT the T/e ratio gets out of whack. So technically, low SHBG doesn't STOP e, it just allows for a better T/e ratio and allows for more dihydro T which can not convert to estro.
In summary, low SHBG does nothing to prevent aromatization, but low shbg will improve t/e ratio since shbg has a higher binding affinity for test and dht than it does for estrogen. agree?
 
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Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

Mavafanculo said:
In summary, low SHBG does nothing to prevent aromatization, but low shbg will improve t/e ratio since shbg has a higher binding affinity for test and dht than it does for estrogen. agree?

Essentially that's it. DHT is a big factor and often overlooked. DHT prevents estrogen overload. If it's too low (as would be the case with high SHBG) you're more susceptible.

Many herbs lower DHT including saw palmetto, fennelgreek, Licorice, beta sitosterol, flax seed oil -- most anything that is in "MEN'S" formulas to protect the prostate or hair , is bad for muscle growth.
 
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

I can vouch for nova killing libido.
 
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

nolva crushed my libido too. my cycle is test e 500/w 14 weeks, eq 400/w 11 weeks, var 50/d last 4 weeks. so since my cycle isnt vary harsh .5mg every 3 days is cool? i got PP test recovery combo, i got some tribex, and i wanna run the adex and hopefully bounce back smooth this time.
 
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

Good Thread Nelson .. Glad To See U Steping Up Again
 
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

daville said:
nolva crushed my libido too. my cycle is test e 500/w 14 weeks, eq 400/w 11 weeks, var 50/d last 4 weeks. so since my cycle isnt vary harsh .5mg every 3 days is cool? i got PP test recovery combo, i got some tribex, and i wanna run the adex and hopefully bounce back smooth this time.

Dude, did you read the thread? What makes you think a less effective dose of something that sucks is going to be better?

Tribex sucks. I used to get cases of that stuff for free and it didn't do shit. Plus there seems to be new evidence that shows Tribulus increases prolactin. Some guys claim increased libido from it but also a "loss of sensitivity" in the penis. That could very well be increased prolactin.

Re-read the post and follow it. You'll be golden.
 
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

Nelson Montana said:
Dude, did you read the thread? What makes you think a less effective dose of something that sucks is going to be better?

Tribex sucks. I used to get cases of that stuff for free and it didn't do shit. Plus there seems to be new evidence that shows Tribulus increases prolactin. Some guys claim increased libido from it but also a "loss of sensitivity" in the penis. That could very well be increased prolactin.

Re-read the post and follow it. You'll be golden.

yeah i read the thread. im just making sure on the adex dose based on my cycle. tribex works for me and a lot of others. just cause it doesnt work for you please dont bash it. its about help here. If you can show me the journal article on the study then ill take your advice into consideration. im tired of going off of he said she said bullshit.
 
Re: PCT For A New Generation. READ THIS Before Asking Any PCT Questions!!!

daville said:
yeah i read the thread. im just making sure on the adex dose based on my cycle. tribex works for me and a lot of others. just cause it doesnt work for you please dont bash it. its about help here. If you can show me the journal article on the study then ill take your advice into consideration. im tired of going off of he said she said bullshit.

Show me journal that says Tribex works. All these years later and tribulus is still nothing but a rumor. Now, the OLD Tribex had avenacosides and that worked really well. But they changed the dosage and the new stuff isn't nearly as potent. If it still works for you, great, but it's the avenacodises that give the effect , not the tribulus. And that being the case UNLEASHED is far more potent.
 
From now on, whenever anyone asks any of these questions, refer them to this post.



#1 Q: What's stronger, drol or dball?

A: In general, orals with high mgs are WEAKER. That's why they have a higher dose. Do not confuse dosage with strength. Winstrol is stronger than drol mg per mg. mg per mg, dball is the most effective oral.

#2 Q: What's the best testosterone?

A: Test is test. Prop is a bit more bioavailable but personally the daily shots aren't worth it. Other than that, it's a pointless discussion.

#3 Q: Should I use fast acting esters for a short cycle?

A: There is no such thing as a fast acting ester, just a short one. Prop isn't effective any quicker than cyp, it is just inactive faster.

#4 Q: How long does it take for a cycle to kick in?

A: In spite of what most people think or say, you are in an heightened anabolic state within one hour of the first injection.

#5 Q: What's a good Bridge?

A: The Brooklyn bridge.

#6: Q: Should I use an anti aromatase during a cycle and a SERM afterward?

A: A little anti aromatase both during and after. Too much will hinder gains and health. SERMS are inconsistent, unreliable and have the potential for too many negative side effects including backlash of symptoms.

#7 Q: How long should I wait between cycles?

A: Twice the length of the cycle.

#8 Q: How long should I stay on?

A: One month minimum, 12 weeks maximum. Anything less is a waste, anything more may cause permanent suppression.

#9 Q: When do I take HCG?

A: When you experience testicular athrophy and/or following a cycle. Taking more is a waste and will just increase e levels.

#10 Q: Is there anything else I can take for PCT?

A: UNLEASHED, POST CYCLE, Sustain. This is mandatory for best recovery.

#11 Q: Can I overtrain while I'm on?

A: Try your best to do so.

#12 Q: At what age should I start?

A: Over 21 with at least 4 years of serious training. Even then, you could probably pack on another 10 pounds naturally with improved training and supps like BIG BLAST, VIGOR, Dermacrine, Amp 02 and others.

#13 Q: Once I've entered the dark side , will natural gains come slower?

A: Yes.

#14 Q: What do the pros take?

A: It doesn't matter. Some take less than some noobies. Others take more than you have in your bank account. Pros aren't pros because of their stacks. They're pros because they have freaky genetics.

#15 Q: Were the old timers really natural?

A: Many have been honest with their drug use but no one can ever know for sure. One thing is certain, the dosages they took are far below those used by most amateurs and hobbyists today. The difference is, they knew how to train. For more on that, check out this : http://www.elitefitness.com/reports/truth/

#16 Q: What's the best way to use DNP and insulin.

A: By keeping it in the bottle.

#17 Q: Is HGH worth the cost?

A: No.

#18 Q: What's the best pre workout stim?

A: They're all the same, the only difference being the dosage. 10 mgs of caffeine is 10 mgs of caffeine regardless of the label. In this regard members should support the site and you won't find a better pre workout stim at a better price than Lipoflame. For increased fat burning without additional stims, proteinfactory ZIP is the logical choice because it hypes the thyroid, not the CNS. The two together are more powerful and effective than anything legal, and even a lot of stuff that isn't.

#19 Q: Where can I find steroids?

A: Nowhere that any of us know about.

# 20 Q: If I'm shut down, does it matter how much I use or how long I'm on?

A: First, know if you're actually shut down and that can only be determined by a blood test. People mistake suppression for "shutdown' and wind up dependant on HRT decades before they needed it. This is serious shit. Know what you're doing or expect to fuck yourself up.

#21: Can I...?

A: You can do whatever you want. That doesn't change the consequences of any action.

#22 Q: How's this cycle?

A: It's fine. Now go lift some weights.

#23 Q: I get gyno if I use Deca. What should I do?

A: Don't use Deca.

#24 Q: What supplements aren't worth using?

A: 98% of them. Anything by the major companies will be overpriced and anything by the smaller companies can't be trusted, especially prohormones which ALL SUCK and have side effects that far outweigh the benefits no matter what anyone claims to the contrary.

# 25 YES, YOU CAN DRINK WINNY!!!

 
<<333 the brooklyn bridge ..lolzz .. love to see more threads like this good stuff
 
Love the post Nelson, it promotes more than just your own products AND is informative! Perfect Balance! People are given OPTIONS and INFO!

Good Post, makes EF look more like a community.

-Legacy
 
Nelson Montana said:
From now on, whenever anyone asks any of these questions, refer them to this post.




#13 Q: Once I've entered the dark side , will natural gains come slower?

A: Yes.


I am assume this is because the juice will put you so much further ahead that it starts to flirt with your natural limit, therefore making natural gains slower because of that limit?

Admiteddly I used steroids before I should have, and actually made just as good gains, if not better, naturally afterwards. Of course many people do use befoe they should. I wish I would have waited.
 
Not bad old friend.

I agree with most of your statements, but some of them are just downright false, first and foremost being that "Test is Test". QUALITATIVELY AND QUANTITATIVELY, that statement is just wrong. Stop listening to ANTHONY! :)

You also state that the ideal cycle length is "One month minimum, 12 weeks maximum. Anything less is a waste, anything more may cause permanent suppression." This is simply nonsense Nelson, there is absolutely ZERO scientific evidence to validate that assertion, but rather, quite the CONTRARY.

As far as there being "no such thing as faster acting esters", this is again COMPLETELY FALSE. The ester does not only determine the half-life, but also the RATE OF RELEASE. Propionate is released much faster and leaves the system much faster than Enanthate or Cypionate, which is also why not all "Test is Test".

Oh, and saying that Winstrol is stronger than Anadrol...LOL. It is just misleading! MILIGRAM FOR MILIGRAM, meaning at each drugs EFFECTIVE DOSAGE, Anadrol makes Winstrol look like BABYFOOD! Who cares which drug requires a LOWER DOSAGE, each drug has a completely different chemical profile, this indicates NOTHING about the strength of the compound at the EFFECTIVE DOSAGE. You crack me up... lol

It also seems that you do not understand how to properly Bridge, and for who and what purpose it serves. Bridging is an essential part of cycling for any intermediate bodybuilder. The notion that you are "either ON or OFF" is OUTDATED and simply not true.

For a NOVICE, these guidelines should suffice. :)
 
Last edited:
Excellent post.

I'm sure Mr. O will disagree with the following though:

#17 Q: Is HGH worth the cost?

A: No.

It's worth every penny if you're a pro, have the dough and know how to take it.
 
Great post. I disagree with a few minor points but nothing worth pointing out and arguing about :)
 
8and20 said:
Great post. I disagree with a few minor points but nothing worth pointing out and arguing about :)

Sure it is!! That's what EF is about :)
 
Ross said:
Not bad old friend.

I agree with most of your statements, but some of them are just downright false, first and foremost being that "Test is Test". QUALITATIVELY AND QUALITATIVELY, that statement is just wrong. Stop listening to ANTHONY! :)

..................................................

SORRY MY FRIEND BUT I BELIEVE IT IS YOU WHO IS WRONG.


........................................................

You also state that the ideal cycle length is "One month minimum, 12 weeks maximum. Anything less is a waste, anything more may cause permanent suppression." This is simply nonsense Nelson, there is absolutely ZERO scientific evidence to validate that assertion, but rather, quite the CONTRARY.

...............................................

YOU MEAN THERE IS EVIDENCE THAT LONGER AND HIGHER DOSAGES ARE NO MORE SUPPRESSIVE? COME ON BRO, I DON'T MIND A DEBATE BUT THAT'S JUST RIDICULOUS.


......................................................................

As far as there being "no such thing as faster acting esters", this is again COMPLETELY FALSE. The ester does not only determine the half-life, but also the RATE OF RELEASE. Propionate is released much faster and leaves the system much faster than Enanthate or Cypionate, which is also why not all "Test is Test".

....................................................

WRONG AGAIN BRO. THE FASTER RATE OF RELEASE OF PROP IS INCONSEQUENTIAL. DO A SHOT OF CYP AND TAKE A BLOOD TEST A FEW HOURS LATER. YOUR T LEVELS WILL HAVE QUADRUPLED. DOES IT REALLY MATTER THAT PROP IS ACTIVE A FEW HOURS SOONER? IN THE LONG RUN, NO.


...............................................................

Oh, and saying that Winstrol is stronger than Anadrol...LOL. It is just misleading! MILIGRAM FOR MILIGRAM, meaning at each drugs EFFECTIVE DOSAGE, Anadrol makes Winstrol look like BABYFOOD!

............................................

YOU'RE CONFUSED.


.................................................

Who cares which drug requires a LOWER DOSAGE, each drug has a completely different chemical profile, this indicates NOTHING about the strength of the compound at the EFFECTIVE DOSAGE.

..................................................

MG PER MG COMPARISON MEANS EVERYTHING! IF I PUT TOGETHER A PILL THAT IS 500 MGS DOES THAT MAKE IT THE MOST POWERFUL COMPOUND? NO, IT'S JUST HIGHER DOSED.

...................................................

You crack me up... lol

...................................................

YOU'RE PRETTY FUNNY YOURSELF.

.....................................................
It also seems that you do not undertand how to properly Bridge, and for who and what purpose it serves. Bridging is an essential part of cycling for any intermediate bodybuilder.

.........................................................

THAT IS FLAT OUT TERRIBLE ADVICE.

......................................................................

For a NOVICE, these guidelines should suffice. :)

......................................................

NICE TRY AT CONDESCENSION BUT YOU'RE MAKING YOURSELF LOOK SILLY. YOU SHOULD FIRST TRY AND GET A FEW THINGS PUBLISHED SO THAT SOME EDITORS CAN STRAIGHTEN YOU OUT AS TO WHAT IS ACCURATE AND WHAT IS JUST ACTING LIKE AN EXPERT. AFTER WHICH, YOU CAN THEN TRY AGAIN AND MAKE SOME POSTS WITH A BETTER UNDERSTANDING BEHIND WHAT YOU SAY. SOMEDAY YOU MAY TO ABLE TO MAKE SOME NICE CONTRIBUTIONS

>>
 
Nelson Montana said:

Nelson, you should know my personality by now, argumentation is MY WAY of showing love. :) I have 2 books due to be published by ELITEFITNESS within a few months, so get ready my friend..

I think you know you're training pretty well, but if I am not mistaken, you're steroid EXPERIENCE is somewhat limited. Still, nothing but respect from me brother, like I said, I just love to argue, especially about things I know alot about.
 
Nelson Montana said:

Bridging is bs. No such thing as bridging.

However, anadrol is definately stronger that winstrol. No comparision. Winstrol gives medium strength gains, whereas anadrol's gains are through the roof. Mg to mg, yes dbol is stronger than anadrol. But anadrol cannot even be compared to winstrol. One gives extreme superhuman strength and cause u to bloat and the other gives intermediate strength but REAL "bloat-free" lean muscle gains.
 
the_alcatraz said:
Bridging is bs. No such thing as bridging.

However, anadrol is definately stronger that winstrol. No comparision. Winstrol gives medium strength gains, whereas anadrol's gains are through the roof. Mg to mg, yes dbol is stronger than anadrol. But anadrol cannot even be compared to winstrol. One gives extreme superhuman strength and cause u to bloat and the other gives intermediate strength but REAL "bloat-free" lean muscle gains.

The Bridge
By Ross



Post-cycle regimens containing Aromatase Inhibitors and SERM's are simply not enough for the SERIOUS bodybuilder to maintain his muscular gains post-cycle. Once a bodybuilders reaches a certain point of muscular development, the continued use of a mild anabolic becomes justified..

The steroid user has TWO options:

1.) A Bridge
2.) A Cruise


In this chapter, we discuss the purpose of the BRIDGE.

The Bridge allows you to remain in an anabolic state while simultaneously having a MINIMAL intereference with HPTA function. Once you are FULLY RECOVERED and your PCT is complete, you can begin bridging while awaiting your FULL CYCLE. This will allow you to make GREATER THAN NATURAL GAINS, while still maintaining normal testosterone levels.

Bridging can ONLY be accomplished using a very specific and limited number of compounds. The selected compound must first be MINIMALLY supressive to the HPTA, and secondly, must still be healthy and effective in small dosages.

The following steroid combinations can be used effectively for Bridging.

Anavar/Proviron= 20mgs/25mgs
Anavar/Masteron= 20mgs/300mgs
Primobolan/Masteron= 200mgs/200mgs
Turinabol/Proviron= 30mgs/25mgs
Turinabol/Masteron= 30mgs/300mgs
Winstrol/Masteron= 25mgs/200mgs
Dianabol/Proviron= 15mgs/25mgs
Dianabol/Masteron= 15mgs/200mgs


**ADD AndroGenerator to COMPLETELY minimize HPTA inhibition!


NOT ALL ANDROGENS CAUSE SHUTDOWN*

"Shutdown", is defined by a COMPLETE inhibition of the Pituitary/Testes, resulting in a TOTAL cessation of endogenous androgen production.

SOME androgens will only SUPPRESS endogenous androgen production, resulting in a DECREASED testosterone level, but not a complete shutdown. (Tbol, Var, Wistrol, EQ, Dianabol, masteron, proviron, halo, primo)

Very Androgenic/Progestenic/Estrogenic steroids(Tren, Deca, Drol, Test) cause a COMPLETE shutdown of endogenous hormone production.

The distinction between SUPRESSION and SHUTDOWN is utterly important, as steroids that cause LESS supression of endogenous hormones will allow for greater retention of gains upon ending the cycle, and a quicker, easier PCT.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Horm Metab Res. 1984 Sep;16(9):492-7.Related Articles, Links

Effect of non aromatizable androgens on LHRH and TRH responses in primary testicular failure.

Spitz IM, Margalioth EJ, Yeger Y, Livshin Y, Zylber-Haran E, Shilo S.

We have assessed the gonadotropin, TSH and PRL responses to the non aromatizable androgens, mesterolone and fluoxymestrone, in 27 patients with primary testicular failure. All patients were given a bolus of LHRH (100 micrograms) and TRH (200 micrograms) at zero time. Nine subjects received a further bolus of TRH at 30 mins. The latter were then given mesterolone 150 mg daily for 6 weeks. The remaining subjects received fluoxymesterone 5 mg daily for 4 weeks and 10 mg daily for 2 weeks. On the last day of the androgen administration, the subjects were re-challenged with LHRH and TRH according to the identical protocol. When compared to controls, the patients had normal circulating levels of testosterone, estradiol, PRL and thyroid hormones. However, basal LH, FSH and TSH levels, as well as gonadotropin responses to LHRH and TSH and PRL responses to TRH, were increased. Mesterolone administration produced no changes in steroids, thyroid hormones, gonadotropins nor PRL. There was, however, a reduction in the integrated and incremental TSH secretion after TRH. Fluoxymesterone administration was accompanied by a reduction in thyroid binding globulin (with associated decreases in T3 and increases in T3 resin uptake). The free T4 index was unaltered, which implies that thyroid function was unchanged. In addition, during fluoxymesterone administration, there was a reduction in testosterone, gonadotropins and LH response to LHRH. Basal TSH did not vary, but there was a reduction in the peak and integrated TSH response to TRH. PRL levels were unaltered during fluoxymesterone treatment.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS



[R]
 
Nelson Montana said:
#6: Q: Should I use an anti aromatase during a cycle and a SERM afterward?

A: A little anti aromatase both during and after. Too much will hinder gains and health. SERMS are inconsistent, unreliable and have the potential for too many negative side effects including backlash of symptoms.

#8 Q: How long should I stay on?

A: One month minimum, 12 weeks maximum. Anything less is a waste, anything more may cause permanent suppression.

Do you have any data to support the above statements. Clearly studies on SERMs, especially clomid show that they raise test with minimal sides. I'm also interested in seeing data on the bodies recovery time based on length of cycle? Do you have blood work or is that statement based mostly on anecdotal evidence?
 
Ross said:
Nelson, you should know my personality by now, argumentation is MY WAY of showing love. :) I have 2 books due to be published by ELITEFITNESS within a few months, so get ready my friend..

I think you know you're training pretty well, but if I am not mistaken, you're steroid EXPERIENCE is somewhat limited. Still, nothing but respect from me brother, like I said, I just love to argue, especially about things I know alot about.

Well, pal, you can use lots of smiley faces and call me bro all day long but you tend to be a little disparaging in a passive aggressive way and frankly you're out of your league. You may have done a lot of gear but knowing what's best in all applications is a different story.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Well, pal, you can use lots of smiley faces and call me bro all day long but you tend to be a little disparaging in a passive aggressive way and frankly you're out of your league. You may have done a lot of gear but knowing what's best in all applications is a different story.

I dunno NM, you seem to think Nolvadex creates horrible sides and should be avoided... just that fact alone makes me question most all of what you write.

In fact Ross actually made some good points IMO
 
Guys let's stick to debating and attacking ideas and opinions presented and not turn this into a drama thread.

The members reading this thread care about which ideas are best and can help them grow, not who's dick is bigger.

The personal stuff is for PM's.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Well, pal, you can use lots of smiley faces and call me bro all day long but you tend to be a little disparaging in a passive aggressive way and frankly you're out of your league. You may have done a lot of gear but knowing what's best in all applications is a different story.

I don't know why you are taking my criticisms of your article personally, but if you want we can post up pictures. :)

Seriously though, I actually like you Nelson and find most of your posts not only accurate and informative but also entertaining. Sorry if I offended you in any way, that's just my personality my friend. On the internet, I am often misunderstood...
 
Ross said:
The Bridge
By Ross



Post-cycle regimens containing Aromatase Inhibitors and SERM's are simply not enough for the SERIOUS bodybuilder to maintain his muscular gains post-cycle. Once a bodybuilders reaches a certain point of muscular development, the continued use of a mild anabolic becomes justified..

The steroid user has TWO options:

1.) A Bridge
2.) A Cruise


In this chapter, we discuss the purpose of the BRIDGE.

The Bridge allows you to remain in an anabolic state while simultaneously having a MINIMAL intereference with HPTA function. Once you are FULLY RECOVERED and your PCT is complete, you can begin bridging while awaiting your FULL CYCLE. This will allow you to make GREATER THAN NATURAL GAINS, while still maintaining normal testosterone levels.

Bridging can ONLY be accomplished using a very specific and limited number of compounds. The selected compound must first be MINIMALLY supressive to the HPTA, and secondly, must still be healthy and effective in small dosages.

The following steroid combinations can be used effectively for Bridging.

Anavar/Proviron= 20mgs/25mgs
Anavar/Masteron= 20mgs/300mgs
Primobolan/Masteron= 200mgs/200mgs
Turinabol/Proviron= 30mgs/25mgs
Turinabol/Masteron= 30mgs/300mgs
Winstrol/Masteron= 25mgs/200mgs
Dianabol/Proviron= 15mgs/25mgs
Dianabol/Masteron= 15mgs/200mgs


**ADD AndroGenerator to COMPLETELY minimize HPTA inhibition!


NOT ALL ANDROGENS CAUSE SHUTDOWN*

"Shutdown", is defined by a COMPLETE inhibition of the Pituitary/Testes, resulting in a TOTAL cessation of endogenous androgen production.

SOME androgens will only SUPPRESS endogenous androgen production, resulting in a DECREASED testosterone level, but not a complete shutdown. (Tbol, Var, Wistrol, EQ, Dianabol, masteron, proviron, halo, primo)

Very Androgenic/Progestenic/Estrogenic steroids(Tren, Deca, Drol, Test) cause a COMPLETE shutdown of endogenous hormone production.

The distinction between SUPRESSION and SHUTDOWN is utterly important, as steroids that cause LESS supression of endogenous hormones will allow for greater retention of gains upon ending the cycle, and a quicker, easier PCT.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Horm Metab Res. 1984 Sep;16(9):492-7.Related Articles, Links

Effect of non aromatizable androgens on LHRH and TRH responses in primary testicular failure.

Spitz IM, Margalioth EJ, Yeger Y, Livshin Y, Zylber-Haran E, Shilo S.

We have assessed the gonadotropin, TSH and PRL responses to the non aromatizable androgens, mesterolone and fluoxymestrone, in 27 patients with primary testicular failure. All patients were given a bolus of LHRH (100 micrograms) and TRH (200 micrograms) at zero time. Nine subjects received a further bolus of TRH at 30 mins. The latter were then given mesterolone 150 mg daily for 6 weeks. The remaining subjects received fluoxymesterone 5 mg daily for 4 weeks and 10 mg daily for 2 weeks. On the last day of the androgen administration, the subjects were re-challenged with LHRH and TRH according to the identical protocol. When compared to controls, the patients had normal circulating levels of testosterone, estradiol, PRL and thyroid hormones. However, basal LH, FSH and TSH levels, as well as gonadotropin responses to LHRH and TSH and PRL responses to TRH, were increased. Mesterolone administration produced no changes in steroids, thyroid hormones, gonadotropins nor PRL. There was, however, a reduction in the integrated and incremental TSH secretion after TRH. Fluoxymesterone administration was accompanied by a reduction in thyroid binding globulin (with associated decreases in T3 and increases in T3 resin uptake). The free T4 index was unaltered, which implies that thyroid function was unchanged. In addition, during fluoxymesterone administration, there was a reduction in testosterone, gonadotropins and LH response to LHRH. Basal TSH did not vary, but there was a reduction in the peak and integrated TSH response to TRH. PRL levels were unaltered during fluoxymesterone treatment.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS



[R]


Dude, a bridge between cycles is an illusion. You're either "on" or "off"
 
needtogetaas said:
Briging is a bunch of bullshit. You are ether on for life or you are not.

The notion that you are either "ON OR OFF" is based on the FALSE ASSUMPTION that all steroids cause HPTA shutdown, when this is NOT TRUE.

I have successfully bridged with MANY COMPOUNDS, meaning, I was able to maintain an AVERAGE testosterone level while still receiving additional anabolic support, allowing me to make MUCH GREATER THAN NATURAL GAINS.

Have I convinced you my bro? :)
 
Ross said:
The Bridge
By Ross



Post-cycle regimens containing Aromatase Inhibitors and SERM's are simply not enough for the SERIOUS bodybuilder to maintain his muscular gains post-cycle. Once a bodybuilders reaches a certain point of muscular development, the continued use of a mild anabolic becomes justified..

The steroid user has TWO options:

1.) A Bridge
2.) A Cruise


In this chapter, we discuss the purpose of the BRIDGE.

The Bridge allows you to remain in an anabolic state while simultaneously having a MINIMAL intereference with HPTA function. Once you are FULLY RECOVERED and your PCT is complete, you can begin bridging while awaiting your FULL CYCLE. This will allow you to make GREATER THAN NATURAL GAINS, while still maintaining normal testosterone levels.

Bridging can ONLY be accomplished using a very specific and limited number of compounds. The selected compound must first be MINIMALLY supressive to the HPTA, and secondly, must still be healthy and effective in small dosages.

The following steroid combinations can be used effectively for Bridging.

Anavar/Proviron= 20mgs/25mgs
Anavar/Masteron= 20mgs/300mgs
Primobolan/Masteron= 200mgs/200mgs
Turinabol/Proviron= 30mgs/25mgs
Turinabol/Masteron= 30mgs/300mgs
Winstrol/Masteron= 25mgs/200mgs
Dianabol/Proviron= 15mgs/25mgs
Dianabol/Masteron= 15mgs/200mgs


**ADD AndroGenerator to COMPLETELY minimize HPTA inhibition!


NOT ALL ANDROGENS CAUSE SHUTDOWN*

"Shutdown", is defined by a COMPLETE inhibition of the Pituitary/Testes, resulting in a TOTAL cessation of endogenous androgen production.

SOME androgens will only SUPPRESS endogenous androgen production, resulting in a DECREASED testosterone level, but not a complete shutdown. (Tbol, Var, Wistrol, EQ, Dianabol, masteron, proviron, halo, primo)

Very Androgenic/Progestenic/Estrogenic steroids(Tren, Deca, Drol, Test) cause a COMPLETE shutdown of endogenous hormone production.

The distinction between SUPRESSION and SHUTDOWN is utterly important, as steroids that cause LESS supression of endogenous hormones will allow for greater retention of gains upon ending the cycle, and a quicker, easier PCT.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Horm Metab Res. 1984 Sep;16(9):492-7.Related Articles, Links

Effect of non aromatizable androgens on LHRH and TRH responses in primary testicular failure.

Spitz IM, Margalioth EJ, Yeger Y, Livshin Y, Zylber-Haran E, Shilo S.

We have assessed the gonadotropin, TSH and PRL responses to the non aromatizable androgens, mesterolone and fluoxymestrone, in 27 patients with primary testicular failure. All patients were given a bolus of LHRH (100 micrograms) and TRH (200 micrograms) at zero time. Nine subjects received a further bolus of TRH at 30 mins. The latter were then given mesterolone 150 mg daily for 6 weeks. The remaining subjects received fluoxymesterone 5 mg daily for 4 weeks and 10 mg daily for 2 weeks. On the last day of the androgen administration, the subjects were re-challenged with LHRH and TRH according to the identical protocol. When compared to controls, the patients had normal circulating levels of testosterone, estradiol, PRL and thyroid hormones. However, basal LH, FSH and TSH levels, as well as gonadotropin responses to LHRH and TSH and PRL responses to TRH, were increased. Mesterolone administration produced no changes in steroids, thyroid hormones, gonadotropins nor PRL. There was, however, a reduction in the integrated and incremental TSH secretion after TRH. Fluoxymesterone administration was accompanied by a reduction in thyroid binding globulin (with associated decreases in T3 and increases in T3 resin uptake). The free T4 index was unaltered, which implies that thyroid function was unchanged. In addition, during fluoxymesterone administration, there was a reduction in testosterone, gonadotropins and LH response to LHRH. Basal TSH did not vary, but there was a reduction in the peak and integrated TSH response to TRH. PRL levels were unaltered during fluoxymesterone treatment.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS



[R]

You are referencing a 24 year old paper, when I know more recent work has been done with regards to men who have complete HPTA shutdown due to things like prostate cancer therapy.

There are old papers that are useful, with research that will never be reproduced, however, I would find some newer data.
 
needtogetaas said:
Briging is a bunch of bullshit. You are ether on for life or you are not.

+1...certain people calls it bridging but in reality it is a very low dosed aas cycle with a few compounds that you take in between very high dosed cycles with a bunch of mixed compounds...

off aas = NO aas at all...NONE
on aas = taking any aas no matter what it is or what dose it's being taken at

so yes, needto is right...you're either on for life (or a long ass time) or you're off...there is no grey space when it comes to gear
 
Mavafanculo said:
Guys let's stick to debating and attacking ideas and opinions presented and not turn this into a drama thread.

The members reading this thread care about which ideas are best and can help them grow, not who's dick is bigger.

The personal stuff is for PM's.

Agreed. Good post before things get out of control and people start bashing each other. LOL
 
Ross said:
The notion that you are either "ON OR OFF" is based on the FALSE ASSUMPTION that all steroids cause HPTA shutdown, when this is NOT TRUE.

I have successfully bridged with MANY COMPOUNDS, meaning, I was able to maintain an AVERAGE testosterone level while still receiving additional anabolic support, allowing me to make MUCH GREATER THAN NATURAL GAINS.

Have I convinced you my bro? :)

One person's experience is not evidence that steroids do not cause HPTA shutdown.

If you want to prove this as an individual, you need some data, like posting your blood results when on, bridging and then off (if you do come off).
 
Tatyana said:
One person's experience is not evidence that steroids do not cause HPTA shutdown.

If you want to prove this as an individual, you need some data, like posting your blood results when on, bridging and then off (if you do come off).


Exactly. And how can anyone say they maintained normal T levels while bridging? If you're bridging, you're ON!

As for the winstrol/drol debate, I still think there's a misconception here. I'm speaking in terms of building muscle tissue. Not temporary strength gains, or size or water. 100 mgs of winstrol a day will build more muscle than 100 mgs of drol a day.
 
get456 said:
I dunno NM, you seem to think Nolvadex creates horrible sides and should be avoided... just that fact alone makes me question most all of what you write.

In fact Ross actually made some good points IMO


Lots of good points in this thread.

The sides I got from Nolvadex were terrible. I'll never use the stuff again. Just goes to show how different compounds affect different people in different ways.
 
Ross said:
Horm Metab Res. 1984 Sep;16(9):492-7.Related Articles, Links

Effect of non aromatizable androgens on LHRH and TRH responses in primary testicular failure.

Spitz IM, Margalioth EJ, Yeger Y, Livshin Y, Zylber-Haran E, Shilo S.

We have assessed the gonadotropin, TSH and PRL responses to the non aromatizable androgens, mesterolone and fluoxymestrone,

Mesterolone = Proviron

Fluoxymestrone = Halotestin




in 27 patients with primary testicular failure.

Not a very large study, and they already had issues with the HPTA.

All patients were given a bolus of LHRH (100 micrograms) and TRH (200 micrograms) at zero time.

They were given releasing hormones for LH/FSH and TSH, so there is more than just steroids going on.

Nine subjects received a further bolus of TRH at 30 mins. The latter were then given mesterolone 150 mg daily for 6 weeks. The remaining subjects received fluoxymesterone 5 mg daily for 4 weeks and 10 mg daily for 2 weeks.

Low dose?, very short cycle


On the last day of the androgen administration, the subjects were re-challenged with LHRH and TRH according to the identical protocol.

Again they were given LH/FSH and TSH releasing hormones at the end of the cycle

When compared to controls, the patients had normal circulating levels of testosterone, estradiol, PRL and thyroid hormones.

DOH, well no kidding as they were given LH/FSH releasing hormone etc.


However, basal LH, FSH and TSH levels, as well as gonadotropin responses to LHRH and TSH and PRL responses to TRH, were increased.

Mesterolone administration produced no changes in steroids, thyroid hormones, gonadotropins nor PRL. There was, however, a reduction in the integrated and incremental TSH secretion after TRH.


Fluoxymesterone administration was accompanied by a reduction in thyroid binding globulin (with associated decreases in T3 and increases in T3 resin uptake). The free T4 index was unaltered, which implies that thyroid function was unchanged.

In addition, during fluoxymesterone administration, there was a reduction in testosterone, gonadotropins and LH response to LHRH.

It says here that testosterone, LH/FSH was suppressed.

Basal TSH did not vary, but there was a reduction in the peak and integrated TSH response to TRH. PRL levels were unaltered during fluoxymesterone treatment.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS



[R]

Ok, this paper proves nothing as far as I am concerned.

It may work on people with no or very little scientific literacy, but not on those that can actually interpret them.

Sorry, no 'blinding with science' bollux going to happen on this site.

Also, unless you can explain or point out the important bits of research, not going to convince me of anything.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Exactly. And how can anyone say they maintained normal T levels while bridging? If you're bridging, you're ON!

As for the winstrol/drol debate, I still think there's a misconception here. I'm speaking in terms of building muscle tissue. Not temporary strength gains, or size or water. 100 mgs of winstrol a day will build more muscle than 100 mgs of drol a day.

LOLLLLLLLLLLLL!

Are you ACTUALLY SAYING that 100mgs of Winstrol ED will build more MUSCLE MASS than 100mgs of ANADROL ED?!?!?

Nelson, come on man.

By the way, this is all in good education, no offense intended at all.
 
You don't think you can maintain normal testosterone levels on 50mgs of Proviron ED? How about 15mgs Dianabol ED or 200mgs of Primo per week?

CRUSING and BRIDGING are two very different things my friend. :) Cruising is staying on TESTOSTERONE, in which the HPTA can not and will not recover while ON.
 
Ross said:
You don't think you can maintain normal testosterone levels on 50mgs of Proviron ED? How about 15mgs Dianabol ED or 200mgs of Primo per week?

CRUSING and BRIDGING are two very different things my friend. :) Cruising is staying on TESTOSTERONE, in which the HPTA can not and will not recover while ON.

Do you have any formal qualifications in endocrinology, biochemistry, physiology or any related scientific field?

Curious, as I do know there is 'real' world experience and 'lab/book/research' experience.

I just think the combo of both of them works best really.
 
I still fully believe you are ether on or off. Some aas m not shut you down as much as others but they still mess with the natural homeostasis of the body.
 
needtogetaas said:
I still fully believe you are ether on or off. Some aas m not shut you down as much as others but they still mess with the natural homeostasis of the body.

Yes, Bridging is not for everyone and for every goal, but it definitely has it's place in the an anabolic steroid cycling protocol.
 
Ross said:
LOLLLLLLLLLLLL!

Are you ACTUALLY SAYING that 100mgs of Winstrol ED will build more MUSCLE MASS than 100mgs of ANADROL ED?!?!?

Nelson, come on man.

By the way, this is all in good education, no offense intended at all.

Actually, in terms of lean muscle, YES Nelson is right. Winstrol does build more lean muscle than anadrol. Hands down. But in terms of strength while on, anadrol gives more strength and size (from the bloat) than winstrol.
 
needtogetaas said:
True, but for the 80% of the non pros on his board :)

So true poptart.

This is my take on the situation.

The idea is to look good and be healthy for LIFE, not just when you are in your twenties.

Nelson is older than a lot of the lads on this board, and he looks GOOD, in fact, at least 10-15 years younger than he is.

It's easy to look good in your twenties, it is also easy to think you are infallible and that what you do now is not going to effect you later in life.

Think again.

I know who I would listen to.
 
Really good post. Hope a few questions you posted are never asked again, but I am sure they will.

Don't agree with #17, though. GH is awesome, if you got good stuff, and can afford to run an effective dose.
 
the_alcatraz said:
Actually, in terms of lean muscle, YES Nelson is right. Winstrol does build more lean muscle than anadrol. Hands down. But in terms of strength while on, anadrol gives more strength and size (from the bloat) than winstrol.

Anadrol causes MASSIVE MUSCLE GAINS. Sure, it also causes massive water retention, but it still builds more muscle than just any other oral, PERIOD.
 
Some of Nelson's answers are obviously false. I believe he knows that and says these things on purpose just to create a controversial post. However, is there anyone with real world experience using HCG that can chime in on it's effectiveness during cycle? I have heard complete contradictory claims about it and I personally don't know what to believe.
 
Tatyana said:
So true poptart.

This is my take on the situation.

The idea is to look good and be healthy for LIFE, not just when you are in your twenties.

Nelson is older than a lot of the lads on this board, and he looks GOOD, in fact, at least 10-15 years younger than he is.

It's easy to look good in your twenties, it is also easy to think you are infallible and that what you do now is not going to effect you later in life.

Think again.

I know who I would listen to.
If you had to say what kind of a poptart What would I be? And would you eat me?
 
Ross said:
Anadrol causes MASSIVE MUSCLE GAINS. Sure, it also causes massive water retention, but it still builds more muscle than just any other oral, PERIOD.

That's debatable. A lot of mass is gained from Anadrol 50, no doubt - it's my favorite oral. However, tbh, most of it is just water retention. If you compare the lean mass gained, winstrol produces better results. There is a misconception that winstrol can only be used for a cutting cycle. It can be used to increase lean muscle mass in the body very nicely.
 
the_alcatraz said:
That's debatable. A lot of mass is gained from Anadrol 50, no doubt - it's my favorite oral. However, tbh, most of it is just water retention. If you compare the lean mass gained, winstrol produces better results. There is a misconception that winstrol can only be used for a cutting cycle. It can be used to increase lean muscle mass in the body very nicely.
Which one has less sides?
 
the_alcatraz said:
That's debatable. A lot of mass is gained from Anadrol 50, no doubt - it's my favorite oral. However, tbh, most of it is just water retention. If you compare the lean mass gained, winstrol produces better results. There is a misconception that winstrol can only be used for a cutting cycle. It can be used to increase lean muscle mass in the body very nicely.

Bro, I use Injectable Winstrol in MANY of my bulking cycles, and sure it is great for lean muscle mass.

HOWEVER, Anadrol builds WAYYYYYY MORE MUSCLE than Winstrol my man, no matter how ya cut the cake. If you gain 30lbs on Anadrol in 4-6 weeks, 15-20 is PURE MUSCLE.

THERE IS NO WAY you can gain 15-20lbs of muscle on JUST Winstrol in 4-6 weeks. Heck, even if you add a dosage of testosterone it still won't be easy.

A-Bombs are the KING of mass bro..
 
Ross said:
Bro, I use Injectable Winstrol in MANY of my bulking cycles, and sure it is great for lean muscle mass.

HOWEVER, Anadrol builds WAYYYYYY MORE MUSCLE than Winstrol my man, no matter how ya cut the cake. If you gain 30lbs on Anadrol in 4-6 weeks, 15-20 is PURE MUSCLE.


THERE IS NO WAY you can gain 15-20lbs of muscle on JUST Winstrol in 4-6 weeks. Heck, even if you add a dosage of testosterone it still won't be easy.

A-Bombs are the KING of mass bro..

20 pounds of solid muscle on drol in 6 weeks? I don't know bro.

o.g. What do you think is "obviously" false? One amendment I would make is about GH. If you can afford it and like it, go for it. But $1000 worth of GH will not build a fraction of the muscle that $1000 worth of Primo will, therefore, it's not worth it to 99% of the people on this board.
 
Nelson Montana said:
20 pounds of solid muscle on drol in 6 weeks? I don't know bro.

o.g. What do you think is "obviously" false? One amendment I would make is about GH. If you can afford it and like it, go for it. But $1000 worth of GH will not build a fraction of the muscle that $1000 worth of Primo will, therefore, it's not worth it to 99% of the people on this board.

Anadrol will definitely produce 15lbs of pure muscle within 6 weeks and 20lbs of muscle is absolutely possible.
 
Nelson Montana said:
20 pounds of solid muscle on drol in 6 weeks? I don't know bro.

I assume he means for a 1st time user w/ NO gear experience at all.... Still, not happening. 10lbs of muscle and 10lbs of H2O.

Nelson Montana said:
o.g. What do you think is "obviously" false? One amendment I would make is about GH. If you can afford it and like it, go for it. But $1000 worth of GH will not build a fraction of the muscle that $1000 worth of Primo will, therefore, it's not worth it to 99% of the people on this board.


Primo is for girls last time I checked. Has something changed? WHy not just spend that money on some good ol Fina and a bunch of Test and grow WAY more? Even leaves you money for your AI and Cabaser.... which makes Deca great, BTW...
 
o.g.swole said:
Some of Nelson's answers are obviously false. I believe he knows that and says these things on purpose just to create a controversial post. However, is there anyone with real world experience using HCG that can chime in on it's effectiveness during cycle? I have heard complete contradictory claims about it and I personally don't know what to believe.

save the psychological/personality analysis - if you disagree with a specific answer, refute it. thats how we do things here now.
 
Mavafanculo said:

Save the psychological/personality analysis - if you disagree with a specific answer, refute it. Thats how we do things here now.


Perfect. That should be a banner at the top of all discussion boards.
 
Anadrol does not build 15-20lbs of muscle on a gain of 34lbs in 6 weeks.
alot of it is water a gallon of water weighs 8lbs and androl cuases huge water retention and bloat.

As we speak a very good friend is going to compete in a NPC show in 10 weeks

he just came off a heavey cycle during the winter. He bulked 6 weeks with anadrol 100mg a day , and 12 weeks of test 1000mg ew he gained 33lbs in 12 weeks.
took 2 weeks off and started his masteron,tren,prop cycle and is 4 weeks into that.
the masteron,tren prop is 100mg of each eod while dieting down to save the muscle he gained in the bulk.

He told me after all the water retention is sucked and the bloat goes down from the anadrol and test , he will loose around 25lbs and might be lucky to come in 5lbs heavier the last year.( he did not relize how much water the androl and test cuased him to hold in the back of the neck,under the chin, in the obliques , midsection and thighs) But I think the guy just looked thick personally but he told me it was almost all bloat I see it now that he is in diet mode the water is comming off his face and neck fast. He has already lost 15lbs of the anadrol bloat and wants to loose the other 7-8lbs over the next 10 weeks .

Its the same for everyone. The pro's take a whole shit load of drugs A MASSIVE CYCLE bulk 50lbs in the offseason by the time they come in the next year at the MR .O they are lucky to weigh a few lbs more then the year before.
So that tells you how much of the gains were " actual " muscle tissue.

Winstrol builds muscle, anadrol makes you hold tons of water,extra blood volume and swells your gut. I could bet eazy that once a advanced bodybuilder comes off anadrol for 12 weeks they will see how much of the gains vanished, but atleast they will get back their body unstead of a bloated neck and face.


As far as bridging , only thing a bridge is doing is staying on steroids plain and simple.
nothing to argue about on that one. All of the common steroids used by bodybuilders surpress the hpta. But hell how would someone know they were surpressed if they do a cycle then a bridge and a cycle then a bridge over and over?
well they will always have the hpta was surpressed becuase they are not off steroids at all to see if their levels return to normal. any blood test a " bridger " does is worthless during his bridge it is the steroids giving the blood readings not natural test production.
 
I agree that Insulin and DNP are very dangerous substances, but when used correctly they are safe.

I understand that the lethal dose of DNP is only 4 times the effective dose, but why do we completely condemn DNP use on this board?

I know phenol's are suppose to be carcinogenic, and that there are very possible severe effects, but some of us are natural endomorphs (like myself) and DNP is invaluable in a bodybuilding supplement program.
 
Sensational said:
I agree that Insulin and DNP are very dangerous substances, but when used correctly they are safe.

I understand that the lethal dose of DNP is only 4 times the effective dose, but why do we completely condemn DNP use on this board?

I know phenol's are suppose to be carcinogenic, and that there are very possible severe effects, but some of us are natural endomorphs (like myself) and DNP is invaluable in a bodybuilding supplement program.

who is condemming it?
 
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