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Test For Life.............
- Thread starter TEST APE
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_Yossarian_
New member
whats your blood work look like? Dont tell me you dont have any done, thats a pretty serious HRT dose....
ripper7
New member
Here,s my story, I stayed on about 18 years about the same dose your talking about. I've had some bad health problems due to this, my hypathimis and pituitary gland are know longer working so its not a good idea, heres some of the nice health problem's I have pancreatites, HBP, low test and GH production, my blood is thicker then glue, my tendons are shot from way to much collagen. I went to and endo doc who thinks he can get my system working I've been off about 8 month.
ripper7
New member
I turned 40 in sept, the problems started really fast thats why it freaked me out so bad I thought I had cancer, I was getting ready for a show and started having stomach cramps, went to the doc and all hell broke loose, every thing started to hurt my BP shot up to 160 over 110, it sucked the pituiatry controls all the glands in the body, oh the stomach pain was pancreititis. becareful bro not worth it. you will get bigger if you cycle
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_Yossarian_
New member
AtLarge said:
teeth?
Triple J
New member
HRT or somewhat higher levels of T are unlikely to harm and have many benefits compared to what may otherwise be too low T levels ...
Continous AAS use (not just T but including the other AAS used) like for 15 straight years or whatever, can obviously lead to problems, if one is not careful. Regular blood work is needed, not just when the shit hits the fan.
The challenge of coming off after all those years is great, imagine trying to go back natural when your body is completley conditioned to high levels, and at an age when lots of bros decide to go the HRT route anyways.
Good luck if this is what you are doing I hope your doctors are top-notch. Permanent low T levels will not be a healthy choice, either.
Continous AAS use (not just T but including the other AAS used) like for 15 straight years or whatever, can obviously lead to problems, if one is not careful. Regular blood work is needed, not just when the shit hits the fan.
The challenge of coming off after all those years is great, imagine trying to go back natural when your body is completley conditioned to high levels, and at an age when lots of bros decide to go the HRT route anyways.
Good luck if this is what you are doing I hope your doctors are top-notch. Permanent low T levels will not be a healthy choice, either.
liquidmuscle
Well-known member
i couldnt imagine juicing for 18+ yrs 
Fukkenshredded
New member
By the time the engine light comes on, you're fucked.
Bloodwork is good, common sense is even better.
Bloodwork is good, common sense is even better.
Stillgoing
New member
Good luck ripper getting back to normal....
40butpumpin
New member
ripper7 said:
testosterone at 200mg e5d DID NOT cause these other problems. i'm very confident that "about the same" does not even come close to "the same," in your statement wrt dose or even substance.
none of what you've said makes any sense to me whatsoever so i don't even care to begin to start with anyone of your claims. so unless i've been living under a rock for the past 20 years -- and i assure you i haven't been -- you're either leaving something MAJOR out of your story, or sadly mistaken.
see i have been using testosterone for approx. 20 years, and in the past 5 or so doing some very serious research in this area, mostly in cv disease and the causes of it, and i assure you i have not come across anything even remotely close to what your claiming here.
i wish you all the best with your health problems, but please refrain from damning something that is not the cause of them.
40butpumpin
New member
this thread does bring up a very important point, however, and that being the relationship between blood viscosity and the development of cardiovascular disease. i have been reading up on something called Rheologics, or the measurement of blood viscosity, and from what i've been reading: "there is a growing body of scientific evidence that the thicker and stickier the blood, the greater the chances of developling atherosclerosis." moreover, "research is now showing that people with a high blood viscosity are much more likely to have a heart attack, stroke, or some other serious vascular problem." some aas are more prone to making blood thick and/or greatly disrupting the lipid profile, however, testosterone at 200mg e5d is NOT one of them. but if you're serious about keeping your blood less viscous and less sticky, then take something called NATTOKINASE, there is nothing else on this planet that can do that better. fish oil is also a great idea, as are other things i've mentioned for cv disease protection. there is a test, or soon to be a test, to measure your blood viscosity, however, that is not the end, but only the means to an end, which is your good health. things like nattokinase are what YOU -- as users of substances that are known to thicken blood -- should be doing NOW as a means to that end. sorry for this rant.
40butpumpin said:
Good post bro. This supplement sounds very interesting:
http://www.willner.com/References/nattokinase.htm
Might have to incorporate it into my HRT regimine.
40butpumpin
New member
BIC said:
aspirin is not good for LT use, and nattokinase does SO much more for you. this is from a old post of mine...
"Spidey, Nattokinase does decrease the blood visocity but does NOT affect the body's ability to clot. Blood thinning has a bad connotation because it is associated with aspirin and coumadin. You CAN thin blood without negative side effects. Nattokinase acts only on the fibrinolytic system to dissolve thrombi within the blood vessels which is different than what aspirin does which is inhibit platelet aggregation."
there is a very significant difference between just thinning blood, and dissolving thrombi and lowering blood "stickiness." nattokinase does the latter, which is essential within a thickened blood environment.
Stillgoing
New member
BIC said:dammmm are you a doc lol...sowhat your saying is that taking asprin for thick sticky blood would not help correct ?
thanks for the info
biic
LOL....40's not a doc but he is a vet and a damn knowledgable bro.
Also, I don't think ripper was damning HRT or low dose test, he was just trying to inform others of the risks of staying on a long, long cycle.
40butpumpin
New member
BIC said:
aspirin does thin blood, but also has some serious negative effects to its use as well. nattokinase does not have these negatives and does a much better job than aspirin does at protecting one from what can ultimately cause a heart attack or stroke. read up on nattokinase and you'll learn what i'm talking about. so i'm saying that taking aspirin is not the answer, correct.
ripper implied that using 200mg test e5d (doesn't matter how long) caused his health problems and i'm saying they did not, and i stand by that. "cycle" can mean a lot of different things, i didn't see that clarification.
str8cubano
New member
good info 40..
Stillgoing
New member
40butpumpin said:
Wait a minute, I'm comparing our avatars side by side and you look bigger than me!!! Wait till I get out my photoshop and morph mine baby!!!!
40butpumpin
New member
Stillgoing said:
hahaha, my brother i feel i will never see the day when i will be as big as you. but i do appreciate your attempt at making me feel good because it worked, and right now i could sure use it. i hope to have a date with some igf-1 soon, however, and if i feel i look as good as you, you'll be the first to know.in all seriousness though bro, get yourself on some nattokinase and stay on it. that is imo THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT THING you can do as protection against the ravages of steroid-induced arterial damage -- and i say that with all the sincerity i have in me.
Yossarian2000 said:
teeth?
The gear promoted development and prolonged recession of abscesses. In other words, the gear hampered the ability of the antibiotics effects. I am sure of this. After stopping gear, the infection ceased and not too soon before i had lost 2 molars and a lot of bone above the teeth. Dentist even said this was the case. Believe me. I have had others reply the same on different board. 2 years now and zero dental problems where they were persistant while on. Most wont believe this but i believe it is true.
If the immune system is effected while on they why not the ability to fight infections.
Sir-Que
New member
Damn is this a Public Service Announcemnet.......talk about your steroid abuse deterrents, pancreatites, HBP, low test and GH production, blood thicker than glue, tendons shot, and fucked up teeth..........whoa!!!!!!!!Seriously this is not the first time i've read something like this were guys just go on Gear and stay on for years, continuously. It would be interesting to find out or approximate how many Non-Pro Bodybuilders or hobbyist stay on year in and year out, whether it be just low doses or bridging, etc.
Hey somebody help me out: Just a thought, I know 200mg e5d isn't obscene, however for a guy at 200+ lbs woulndn't the body adjust or acclimate itself to the dosage over a long period of time. I know coming off would be pretty rough, but after let's say after a year would the body react the same way to the added test as it did in the begining.
SQ-
40butpumpin
New member
Sir-Que said:
no.
Sir-Que said:
yes.
40butpumpin said:
Damn ... good info 40! I really should get my father taking some of this (he has high blood pressure, and suffered a stroke last summer), he has got a complete re-vamp on his diet now ... which was the biggest part, (couldnt eat any meal without TUNS of salt ... I am serious). He is actually going to the gym now too which I am very surprised at.
Its funny because I was in at the plasma center a few weeks ago to give plasma, and while waiting, I saw an informational pamphlet that said Nattokinase on it. I had no idea what the hell it was so didnt bother to read it... wished I would have then, could have asked some people there about it.
Couple Qs for ya if you dont mind...
Is this stuff to just be used in place of the conventional clot-dissolving drugs like tissue plasminogen activators (TPAs)?
Also, ... would you say that this would have an effect/benefit directly on blood pressure, or just as a clot-dissolving agent only?Usually these two are so closely tied with one another anyways.
I am wondering if this would be something that would be good to take with a conventional 10-12 week cycle if blood pressure is a concern, or if it would be overkill because of the time frame.
I did not know you have been on for so long bro? Is that 20yrs straight? If so ... when and why did you decide to go the HRT route? If you dont mind me asking? Again ... good info bro.
Cheers,
Mavy
40butpumpin
New member
Mavy said:
bro, please read the following excerpt from the link i have also provided below. yes, it will help some with blood pressure, however, i would avoid stopping any bp med's w/o a doc's okay and close monitiring of it. in the case of a cycle, where bp would be a concern, it's not nearly as effective as other drugs. for that reason i would not rely on it for that particular purpose (high bp). for clot busting and prevention, there is nothing else like it. as far as my test use, no, i haven't used continuously for 20 years, but i have been on test in some form or another for most of that period. my first use of test when i was 21 years old (i'll be 43 in 2 weeks) and that was pellets that were implanted under my skin on the top of my ass (by a doc). after that it was every type of application you can imagine: gel, injects, oral (methytest), lozenges, more implants, patches, and i think that's all. lol get your dad on nattokinase bro, you'll be helping him more than anything he's currently doing, seriously.
the following is pasted from the following link...
http://www.heart1.com/news/newsfeed.cfm/1553/1
... begin paste
Some of the endogenous and exogenous agents involved in clotting homeostasis are plasmin, heparin, coumarin/warfarin, and T-PA. However, these agents have limitations and/or serious side effects:
Plasmin is an endogenous protease that resembles trypsin (a digestive protease), and is the activated form of plasminogen. It is able to digest fibrin fibers; however, its limitation is that it is slowly activated and therefore slow to act. In addition, it works better to dissolve small clots, rather than larger ones.
Heparin is a drug given intravenously that acts as an anticoagulant by inhibiting thrombin. Heparin is often associated with side effects such as increased bleeding and hemorrhage.
Coumarin/Warfarin is a drug that works by competing with vitamin K for reactive sites in the enzymatic process for the formation of prothrombin and clotting factors, thereby blocking the clotting action of vitamin K.
Another drug used to manipulate the above process is TPA (tissue plasminogen activator), which is effective in activating plasminogen to plasmin. Although given as an intravenous drug, it is also a naturally occurring substance produced endogenously, although in much smaller amounts than that used as medical therapy.
Streptokinase is another enzyme derived from betahemolytic streptococci, and used as a medical therapy. In addition to the above-mentioned serious side effects and limitations, these medical therapies lack true utility in that to be therapeutic, they must be injected.
Oral enzymes continue to be studied as possible alternatives to the injectable varieties. Fibrinolytic therapy through the use of oral enzymes was investigated by Sumi and co-workers 10 years ago in an animal model. In that study, enteric-coated urokinase (UK) capsules were given to normal and experimental dogs with saphenous vein thrombosis. Previous findings indicated that intravenous (IV) administration did not show any clear thrombolytic effect, but that oral administration enhanced the fibrinolytic activity, serving as a treatment to lyse the thrombi in a mild but sustained way. This supported the idea that oral enzyme agents can and do have systemic fibrinolytic properties. The underlying mechanism of such fibrinolytic therapy by oral administration was then confirmed by basic research involving absorption of the administered UK across the intestinal tract, and by the release into the blood of endogenous plasminogen activator, which originated from the liver and/or endothelial cells. The enteric-coated UK capsules (60,000 U/ day for 7 days) also exhibited a clinical efficacy against cerebral thrombi. Even greater results were obtained in double-blind tests at multicenter trials employing a dose of 120,000 U/day for 7 days. [94,95]
Recently, a natural enzyme, potent in the oral form, has been discovered, researched, and found to be a most promising agent not only in reversing clots, but in preventing them and modulating the clotting process in ways that help reestablish homeostasis. This enzyme is called nattokinase, and has been called "the enzyme of enzymes" because it may serve as a non-specific activator of most endogenous enzymes (possibly by cleaving the CH3 terminus of zymogens [pre-made enzymes in their inactive form]).97 Nattokinase is a serine endopeptidase with a molecular weight of 20,000 Daltons and a point of ionization (pI) of 8.6. This isolated fibrinolytic enzyme, derived from a traditional Japanese food, natto, was discovered by Dr. Hiroyuki Sumi and resembles plasmin. Nattokinase (NK), an enzyme derived from natto-a popular fermented soybean food in Japan derived from vegetable cheese (boiled and fermented soybeans with a special bacterium, bacillus subtilisin natto) - shows potent fibrinolytic activity and was discovered by Dr. Sumi at the University of Chicago's medical school.98 Dr. Sumi was conducting research on some 200 kinds of foods from all over the world in search of a natural substance that could dissolve and even prevent blood clots. He found that natto had the highest fibrinolytic activity among all those foods tested, presenting the results of his research in Japan in 1986.
Natto has a long cultural history, extending back more than 1,000 years.' Traditionally, it was also used as a folk medicine for heart and vascular diseases, to relieve fatigue, and as an anti-beriberi agent. Dr. Sumi says nattokinase "shows a potency matched by no other enzyme."
Nattokinase is extremely stable under variations in temperature, and in both acid and alkali milieu. Currently, nattokinase has been the subject of 17 research studies, including two small human trials. In one such study, thrombi were induced in dogs, who were given either nattokinase or placebo. Angiogram confirmation showed that the dogs who received the enzyme regained normal circulation within five hours of treatment, whereas the placebo group continued to have demonstrable evidence of thrombus occlusion even after 18 hours." In another study in Japan to compare nattokinase's and plasmin's ability to dissolve thrombi in the carotid arteries of rats, animals treated with nattokinase regained 62 percent of their blood flow, whereas the animals treated with plasmin regained 15.8 percent of their blood flow.100 While the human body contains several enzymes that promote the creation of blood clots, it produces only one that can dissolve clots (plasmin), and the production of that enzyme diminishes as we age. It is interesting to note that oral nattokinase in this study was more effective than plasmin in dissolving thrombi. [94,95] Research indicates that the mechanisms of nattokinase stem from its close resemblance to endogenous plasmin. It appears to be able to dissolve fibrin directly, and it may enhance the body's own production of plasmin. Furthermore, nattokinase appears to have ACE (Angiotensin Converting Enzyme) inhibitor activity. In studies, it has been able to lower systolic blood pressure up to 11 percent and diastolic pressure up to 9.7 percent. [101]
Unlike antithrombin drugs that wear off shortly after IV treatment is discontinued, nattokinase produces prolonged action in two ways: it prevents coagulation of blood, and it dissolves existing thrombi. Both the efficacy and the prolonged action of NK can be determined by measuring levels of euglobulin fibrinolytic activity (EFA) and fibrin degradation products (FDP), which both become elevated as fibrin is being dissolved. By measuring EFA and FDP levels, the activity of NK has been determined to last from 8 to 12 hours. An additional parameter for confirming the action of NK following oral administration is a rise in blood levels of TPA antigen (tissue plasminogen activator), which indicates a release of TPA from the endothelial cells and/or the liver.
...
BY NICHOLAS CALVI,NO, DC, AND RALPH HOLSWORTH, DO
... end paste
40butpumpin
New member
btw bro, there is a lot more information available on nattokinase. just let me know if you need more information.
Thanks 40. I a have more than enough reading now, found a few sites right now too. I wonder how much literature is available on pubmed? Gonna check it out. Damn bro, again you keep proving yourself to be extremely helpful to me by the info you offer. THanks.
This is a subject I like to keep up on. Not only did my father have a stroke, but my grandfather had CAD, (coronary artery disease) and died form a heart attack. Dosent really leave me with a whole hell of a lot to look forward too. hahahaha
On the plus side ... I am completely fine. Mind you, I am still relatively young, my diet is amazingly healthy compared to theirs and my grandfather smoked til the day he died.
Jesuzz .. you sure know how to make a guy feel like a rookie! haha. This really explains the wealth of knowledge you have to offer, especially in the 'ol experience department.
Take Care,
Mavy
This is a subject I like to keep up on. Not only did my father have a stroke, but my grandfather had CAD, (coronary artery disease) and died form a heart attack. Dosent really leave me with a whole hell of a lot to look forward too. hahahaha
On the plus side ... I am completely fine. Mind you, I am still relatively young, my diet is amazingly healthy compared to theirs and my grandfather smoked til the day he died.
40butpumpin said:
Jesuzz .. you sure know how to make a guy feel like a rookie! haha. This really explains the wealth of knowledge you have to offer, especially in the 'ol experience department.
Take Care,
Mavy
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