Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below
Tamoxifen for dieting...MS has a rethink
- Thread starter MS
- Start date
T
The Shadow
Guest
MS said:
Nothing eatrhshattering in terms of being scientific......but.....I have always believed that Nolvadex is a "weaker" estrogen that Estradiol.
That's why men, of course, use Nolvadex as an anti-estro.....lower estrogen especially in men, tended to really lean out the lower ab down to the knee region, typucally referred to as sticky fat....the same should apply to women...in addition to less water retention, I would think that the lowered estrogen would have to affect the Test/Estrogen ratio.....so muscle mass gain couls possible be greater in addtion to great fat burning(from the boost in other hormones - test).
I had really good results from a mix of bengay and crushed t-3, yohimbine and nolvadex in 2 women.
T
The Shadow
Guest
another thought on the Prozac/Leptin response - I have noticed that those who are lean/relatively lean when they begin the Prozac tend to gain weight rapidly.....whether it is due to the Prozac itself or a side such as lethargy I do not know.,
Yes, without a doubt leaner folks (less insulin/leptin resistant) are more likely to gain fat rather than lose it on Prozac compared to overweight/insulin/leptin resistant folks.
Given the known pharmacolgy of Nolvadex, I am pretty skeptical (as Wilson6 would say) that the effects Cornholio has seen with women was due to direct antiestrogenic effects in a target specific manner. More likely the yohimbine may have been the major contributor. It's possible (I really don't know) that men have a different lower body responsivness to Nolvadex than women, but I can assure you that Nolvadex has very little affinity/activity in subcutaneous estrogen sensitive adipose stores compared to tissue like breast where it is a potent estrogen receptor blocker in men AND women.
I agree for the most part with Wilson6 in terms of a drug like Anavar being a much better bet for dieting men and women. However I was approaching this topic from the ever practical angle of stuff you could relatively easily either convince your doc to prescribe, or safely buy in from blackmarket sources, and that wasn't tested for or even considered in so-called 'natty' events. Anyway, I'll bet Anavar PLUS tamoxifen PLUS Prozac would work even better! Any takers for that experiment??????
Given the known pharmacolgy of Nolvadex, I am pretty skeptical (as Wilson6 would say) that the effects Cornholio has seen with women was due to direct antiestrogenic effects in a target specific manner. More likely the yohimbine may have been the major contributor. It's possible (I really don't know) that men have a different lower body responsivness to Nolvadex than women, but I can assure you that Nolvadex has very little affinity/activity in subcutaneous estrogen sensitive adipose stores compared to tissue like breast where it is a potent estrogen receptor blocker in men AND women.
I agree for the most part with Wilson6 in terms of a drug like Anavar being a much better bet for dieting men and women. However I was approaching this topic from the ever practical angle of stuff you could relatively easily either convince your doc to prescribe, or safely buy in from blackmarket sources, and that wasn't tested for or even considered in so-called 'natty' events. Anyway, I'll bet Anavar PLUS tamoxifen PLUS Prozac would work even better! Any takers for that experiment??????
Moral rant here.
To say that combining Prozac and Tamoxifen is more practical and safer than 5 - 10 mg of OX is like saying that Pu239 is safer than U235 because Pu239 has a half-life of 24,000 years whereas U235 has a half-life of 703,000,000 years.
How is AAS free different from Prozac and Nolvadex free? Either way you are manipulating endogenous hormones/neurotransmitters and both can produce side effects that are equal to or worse than low doses of OX. I'm not suggesting that you should use OX, but the AAS free avenue ought to be a drug free avenue if that is your moral quest and quite frankly, the potential gains (fat loss) of taking Tamoxifen and Prozac vs the side effects of either drug alone or combined will be far outweighed by the sides.
BUT, I am curious so keep us updated; and I'm not a big advocate of mixing psychotropic drugs and AAS. AAS alone are potent antidepressants.
Regarding looks, given what Brickgirl has been able to achieve with minimal intervention and solid diet and training, I don't know why anyone should be thinking "polypharmacy" instead of more conservative/proven approaches.
W6
To say that combining Prozac and Tamoxifen is more practical and safer than 5 - 10 mg of OX is like saying that Pu239 is safer than U235 because Pu239 has a half-life of 24,000 years whereas U235 has a half-life of 703,000,000 years.
How is AAS free different from Prozac and Nolvadex free? Either way you are manipulating endogenous hormones/neurotransmitters and both can produce side effects that are equal to or worse than low doses of OX. I'm not suggesting that you should use OX, but the AAS free avenue ought to be a drug free avenue if that is your moral quest and quite frankly, the potential gains (fat loss) of taking Tamoxifen and Prozac vs the side effects of either drug alone or combined will be far outweighed by the sides.
BUT, I am curious so keep us updated; and I'm not a big advocate of mixing psychotropic drugs and AAS. AAS alone are potent antidepressants.
Regarding looks, given what Brickgirl has been able to achieve with minimal intervention and solid diet and training, I don't know why anyone should be thinking "polypharmacy" instead of more conservative/proven approaches.
W6
I understand your moral rant, and it is a common one. However I did not set the morality (or immorality as it were) of AAS in sports, and I provide these thoughts as just that. And it's not just about AAS. In many tested sports they also ask about/test for other comonly used (and effective) drugs such as ephedrine.
The potential of both Prozac and/ot tamoxifen to basically act as anorectics/thermogenics during a diet should also not be discounted. They act completely differently from ox. Ox is an anabolic/anticatabolic agent. I have not heard that it makes it any easier to stick to a pre-contest diet, which is the basic application I'm suggesting here. From my perspective they should be synergistic. Admittedly it does cause a change in bodyfat distribution that I think is much more beneficial than tamoxifen (which I've already pointed out is not gonna specifiaclly target thigh and butt fat like ox will).
And talking about the morality of polypharmacy on an anabolic discussion board is comical IMHO. Not because I think people NEED to take lots of drugs to achieve a good bod, but because I recognize that people already do take lots of drugs, and will continue to do so. Providing info to make it as safe and succesful as possible is just good practice. For the record, I think the vast majority of drugs currently available for prescription (so-called morally acceptable) don't do anything that a person with some nouse of diet, exercise and knowledge of their own body couldn't do without the drugs. The pharmaceutical industry is truly immoral.
Anyway, 1 in 5 Americans adults has already taken a course of Prozac at least once, and the number of people expected to take anti-depressants is going to soar over the next 10 years. THIS IS IMMORAL prescribing practice. As an antidepressant it only works for 30-40% of people anyway, and there are dozens of lifestyle changes/pychotherapy approaches which are no longer being used to treat and prevent recurrent episodes of depression. Just give them a pill......Prozac has also been approved for treatment of PMS, binge eating disorder, SAD, and similar drugs with neurological targets (such as silbutramine and busiprion) are already used to treat obesity. A precontest diet using no more than 3 months of these drugs is not extreme, especially if you compete infrequently. I don't think I can say much more on the potential benefits versus side effects of this drug combo until me and some other women have tried it. I think the benefits versus sides of completing a contest diet is pretty appalling. If you look at it that way, there really is no good reason to compete. 3-4 months of suffering, screwing up your hormones and brain chemistry from diet alone, all for a few seconds on stage is really stupid. The tamoxifen/Prozac are really just attempts to negate some of the hormonal/neurological suffering of people that choose this path. I guess I see a contest diet as a pathological condition which can be ameliorated with judicious drug therapy!
And men with normal free T levels also get depression, though less frequently than females. I hardly consider androgens alone to be a first course of treatment in depression in otherwise hormonally healthy adults, though that is really OT.
Anyway, someone else's turn for a rant.
The potential of both Prozac and/ot tamoxifen to basically act as anorectics/thermogenics during a diet should also not be discounted. They act completely differently from ox. Ox is an anabolic/anticatabolic agent. I have not heard that it makes it any easier to stick to a pre-contest diet, which is the basic application I'm suggesting here. From my perspective they should be synergistic. Admittedly it does cause a change in bodyfat distribution that I think is much more beneficial than tamoxifen (which I've already pointed out is not gonna specifiaclly target thigh and butt fat like ox will).
And talking about the morality of polypharmacy on an anabolic discussion board is comical IMHO. Not because I think people NEED to take lots of drugs to achieve a good bod, but because I recognize that people already do take lots of drugs, and will continue to do so. Providing info to make it as safe and succesful as possible is just good practice. For the record, I think the vast majority of drugs currently available for prescription (so-called morally acceptable) don't do anything that a person with some nouse of diet, exercise and knowledge of their own body couldn't do without the drugs. The pharmaceutical industry is truly immoral.
Anyway, 1 in 5 Americans adults has already taken a course of Prozac at least once, and the number of people expected to take anti-depressants is going to soar over the next 10 years. THIS IS IMMORAL prescribing practice. As an antidepressant it only works for 30-40% of people anyway, and there are dozens of lifestyle changes/pychotherapy approaches which are no longer being used to treat and prevent recurrent episodes of depression. Just give them a pill......Prozac has also been approved for treatment of PMS, binge eating disorder, SAD, and similar drugs with neurological targets (such as silbutramine and busiprion) are already used to treat obesity. A precontest diet using no more than 3 months of these drugs is not extreme, especially if you compete infrequently. I don't think I can say much more on the potential benefits versus side effects of this drug combo until me and some other women have tried it. I think the benefits versus sides of completing a contest diet is pretty appalling. If you look at it that way, there really is no good reason to compete. 3-4 months of suffering, screwing up your hormones and brain chemistry from diet alone, all for a few seconds on stage is really stupid. The tamoxifen/Prozac are really just attempts to negate some of the hormonal/neurological suffering of people that choose this path. I guess I see a contest diet as a pathological condition which can be ameliorated with judicious drug therapy!
And men with normal free T levels also get depression, though less frequently than females. I hardly consider androgens alone to be a first course of treatment in depression in otherwise hormonally healthy adults, though that is really OT.
Anyway, someone else's turn for a rant.
JJFigure
New member
I was really only looking at the Nolvadex, and I'll be doing more research before I consider it. Mine isn't a moral case against AAS - just a decision to not supplement testosterone in a body that really doesn't need anymore than it makes naturally. You're right, surpressing estrogen is hormonal manipulation, but considering Nolvadex is a drug designed for women, I'm more open to researching it. That doesn't necessarily mean I'll try it; just that I'll consider it.
The sides of Nolvadex are significantly different from the sides of something like Winny - I've never paid attention to Ox, so I'm not sure what it's sides are. Plus, the sides for Nolvadex come into play with long term use - MS is only talking about a very short usage period.
And I'm considered high risk for breast cancer since I'm adopted - if risk is unknown, they just class you as high risk - so I could probably even get a prescription if I went down that route. Then, it's not even a legal issue.
I left my morals at the door the minute I started using ECA - I figure that's due to be banned any minute now by the FDA, and there's no way in hell I'm going to quit using it for dieting - I'll get it however I need to get it. Kind of hard to have a moral conscience when you're fully prepared to break the law if you need to.
The sides of Nolvadex are significantly different from the sides of something like Winny - I've never paid attention to Ox, so I'm not sure what it's sides are. Plus, the sides for Nolvadex come into play with long term use - MS is only talking about a very short usage period.
And I'm considered high risk for breast cancer since I'm adopted - if risk is unknown, they just class you as high risk - so I could probably even get a prescription if I went down that route. Then, it's not even a legal issue.
I left my morals at the door the minute I started using ECA - I figure that's due to be banned any minute now by the FDA, and there's no way in hell I'm going to quit using it for dieting - I'll get it however I need to get it. Kind of hard to have a moral conscience when you're fully prepared to break the law if you need to.
We're all f***ed up (according to mainstream society) otherwise we wouldn't be here. That's what makes this board so interesting. Just wanted to get some non-scientific debate going 
Anyhow, is there anyone out there that has been both on and off an SSRI (Prozac, Zoloft, etc.) and has dieted for a show in both cases? i.e., did the addition of the SSRI make the whole process easier or more difficult, both psychologically and physiologically?
W6
Anyhow, is there anyone out there that has been both on and off an SSRI (Prozac, Zoloft, etc.) and has dieted for a show in both cases? i.e., did the addition of the SSRI make the whole process easier or more difficult, both psychologically and physiologically?
W6
Iron Queen
New member
<<MS said:
Oh yeah, that reminds me JJ,anyone who tries this should double up on alternative contraceptives because tamoxifen can increase your chances of getting pregnant even though it will paradoxically also dramtically increase chances of birth defects if you DO get pregos. >>
OK I've read that you could get pregnant if you're using tamoxifen BUT if you're using nolvadex your bodyfat should be low enough to where you're not getting your period anymore, which in turn would mean you *shouldn't* be ovulating. Of course you cant guarantee that you wont ovulate but if you're that lean you wont get your period. Nevermind the fact that if you're dieting for a show its not like you can use any REAL hormonal birth control methods bc that would just defeat the whole purpose of dieting.
What do you think the chances of becoming pregnant are if you're doing the nolva say... starting 8 weeks out from a contest prep all the way to a show even if you havent gotten your period in a couple years? he he. (seriously)
IQ
Oh yeah, that reminds me JJ,anyone who tries this should double up on alternative contraceptives because tamoxifen can increase your chances of getting pregnant even though it will paradoxically also dramtically increase chances of birth defects if you DO get pregos. >>
OK I've read that you could get pregnant if you're using tamoxifen BUT if you're using nolvadex your bodyfat should be low enough to where you're not getting your period anymore, which in turn would mean you *shouldn't* be ovulating. Of course you cant guarantee that you wont ovulate but if you're that lean you wont get your period. Nevermind the fact that if you're dieting for a show its not like you can use any REAL hormonal birth control methods bc that would just defeat the whole purpose of dieting.
What do you think the chances of becoming pregnant are if you're doing the nolva say... starting 8 weeks out from a contest prep all the way to a show even if you havent gotten your period in a couple years? he he. (seriously)
IQ
Similar threads
