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This thread is regarding Proviron used standalone for non-cycle, non-PCT purposes such as strength gain or aggression in the weight room, libido, muscle hardening, &c. I've often wondered if suppression would become a significant issue when it's used for sometimes prolonged periods in someone with a normal hormonal environment, and if PCT is necessary when using it like this. I've complied a group of studies to find out.
#1 : The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.
Abstract
Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment. One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone. One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and 75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml). Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group. Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated. There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.
NOTES: Used a large group, most of whom were hormonally normal. LH lowered a bit if it was elevated, but not really relevant because testosterone levels showed no significant change in all subjects anyways.
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#2 :Mesterolone treatment of patients with pathospermia.
Abstract
The response to Mesterolone, in doses of 25 mg/day, was examined in 42 pathospermic patients. Treatment lasted for 100 days. The pronounced response to the Mesterolone treatment was observed in hypozoo- and oligozoospermia with low initial fructose content in the ejaculate. Fructose content attained its normal range after the treatment. During the therapeutic period 11 wives became pregnant. The authors conclude that Mesterolone does not influence plasma FSH, LH and testosterone levels, it has only peripheral effects.
NOTES: Low dose over a decent 3 month time frame. No measurable influence on HPTA.
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#3 : Plasma cholesterol, triglycerides, FSH and testosterone levels of normolipemic male patients with decreased fertility treated with mesterolone.
Abstract
There were no changes in plasma cholesterol, triglycerides, FSH and testosterone levels of 24 healthy men treated with mesterolone for infertility during period of 6 months. The patients were normolipemic and the daily doses were 75 mg. No side-effects were noticed. Mesterolone seems to have too selective or too low androgenic effect with the doses used in orde to have an influence on the lipid metabolism of men.
NOTES: Decent sized group, again healthy, apart from being infertile. Low-medium dose for a pretty long time period. Again no significant suppression.
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# 4: The effects of mesterolone on the male accessory sex organs, on spermiogram, plasma testosterone and FSH.
Abstract
42 subfertile male ambulatory patients were treated with Proviron. Moderate oligoastheno-teratozoospermia was the most common injury in sperm analysis. The treatment did not change the amount of plasma FSH, testosterone or prostate phosphatase. Acid phosphatase and citric acid of semen showed an increased activity with mesterolone treatment. The amount of fructose decreased, it is probably due to the increased number of spermatozoa, which need more fructose for their metabolism respectively. The sperm of 93% of the patients improved or stayed unchanged. 30% of the patients developed normozoospermia. 6 pregnancies were achieved.
NOTES: Here, as well as being infertile, the patients are also bedridden. The reasons for this are not given. Nor is the daily dose amount of mesterolone. By itself, this study is hardly anything at all, but taken together with the above studies which also failed to detect endocrine changes, it can be suggestive and so should be considered.
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#5 : Effect of non aromatizable androgens on LHRH and TRH responses in primary testicular failure.
Abstract
We have assessed the gonadotropin, TSH and PRL responses to the non aromatizable androgens, mesterolone and fluoxymestrone, in 27 patients with primary testicular failure. All patients were given a bolus of LHRH (100 micrograms) and TRH (200 micrograms) at zero time. Nine subjects received a further bolus of TRH at 30 mins. The latter were then given mesterolone 150 mg daily for 6 weeks. The remaining subjects received fluoxymesterone 5 mg daily for 4 weeks and 10 mg daily for 2 weeks. On the last day of the androgen administration, the subjects were re-challenged with LHRH and TRH according to the identical protocol. When compared to controls, the patients had normal circulating levels of testosterone, estradiol, PRL and thyroid hormones. However, basal LH, FSH and TSH levels, as well as gonadotropin responses to LHRH and TSH and PRL responses to TRH, were increased. Mesterolone administration produced no changes in steroids, thyroid hormones, gonadotropins nor PRL. There was, however, a reduction in the integrated and incremental TSH secretion after TRH. Fluoxymesterone administration was accompanied by a reduction in thyroid binding globulin (with associated decreases in T3 and increases in T3 resin uptake). The free T4 index was unaltered, which implies that thyroid function was unchanged. In addition, during fluoxymesterone administration, there was a reduction in testosterone, gonadotropins and LH response to LHRH. Basal TSH did not vary, but there was a reduction in the peak and integrated TSH response to TRH. PRL levels were unaltered during fluoxymesterone treatment.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)
NOTES: This one is a bit different, as they also gave injections of LHRH. In this small group of subjects, Proviron didn't measurably change the response of LH and FSH (and ultimately testosterone) to LHRH after it had been taken at a medium dose for several weeks. Good to know.
____________________________________________________________
The following DO show suppression with Proviron use:
#6 : The effects of mesterolone, a male sex hormone in depressed patients (a double blind controlled study).
Abstract
Based on computer EEG (CEEG) profiles, in high doses, antidepressant properties of mesterolone, a synthetic androgen, were predicted. In a double-blind placebo controlled study, the clinical effects of 300-450 mg daily mesterolone were investigated in 52 relatively young (age range 26-53 years, mean 42.7 years) male depressed outpatients. During 6 weeks of mesterolone treatment, there was a significant improvement of depressive symptomatology. However, since an improvement was also established during the placebo treatment, no statistically appreciable difference in the therapeutic effects of mesterolone was established compared to placebo. Mesterolone treatment significantly decreased both plasma testosterone and protein bound testosterone levels. Patients with high testosterone levels prior to treatment seem to have had more benefit from mesterolone treatment than patients with low testosterone levels. The degree of improvement weakly correlated to the decrease of testosterone levels during mesterolone treatment.
NOTES: A decent sized group of middleaged men given 300-450 mg for several weeks. That's at least 2-3X the dose given in the studies above.
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#7: The hormone response to a synthetic androgen (mesterolone) in oligospermia.
Abstract
Forty subfertile men with oligospermia were treated with a synthetic androgen (Mesterolone). The effect of the drug was evaluated by measuring serum testosterone, luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and analysing the semen before and after treatment. The results demonstrated that in twenty-three patients treated for 6-9 months there was a significant decrease in serum testosterone (P less than 0.01); the means +/- SEM before and after treatment were 17.05 +/- 0.95 and 14.7 +/- 0.95 (nmol/l serum) respectively. There was a pronounced increase in serum LH (P less than 0.01), the values being 2.73 +/- 0.26 and 3.61 +/- 0.3 (u/l) respectively. However, no significant difference was found in serum FSH before and after treatment. The sperm concentration showed a variable response to treatment. In twenty-one patients there was either no change or worsening in the sperm concentration, whereas in nineteen patients an improvement was observed. The analysis of variance of sperm concentration and motility for the periods before and after treatment, for all the patients, showed no significant difference in the sperm concentration F1.145 = 2.82 (P=0.1).
NOTES: This group was treated for a long time, with testosterone decreasing, but again the dosage used is unknown. Considering the above, it's safe to assume they used high doses, like in #6. Strangely, LH is increased, but this may be due to its pulsatile nature, which makes it more difficult to measure precisely.
______________________________________________________________
CONCLUSION: Just looking at all the subjects in studies 1-4 you see a total of 358 ppl with normally functioning endorine systems take anywhere from 25-150 mg, sometimes for up to 12 months or more, with no measurable change in testosterone. Studies which showed otherwise used or were likely to have used very high doses. Low to medium doses (25-150 mg) of proviron taken when you're HPTA is fully functioning (read: not at the end of a cycle) does not significantly suppress testosterone. Higher doses however have a tendency to.
#1 : The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.
Abstract
Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment. One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone. One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and 75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml). Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group. Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated. There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.
NOTES: Used a large group, most of whom were hormonally normal. LH lowered a bit if it was elevated, but not really relevant because testosterone levels showed no significant change in all subjects anyways.
_________________________________________________________
#2 :Mesterolone treatment of patients with pathospermia.
Abstract
The response to Mesterolone, in doses of 25 mg/day, was examined in 42 pathospermic patients. Treatment lasted for 100 days. The pronounced response to the Mesterolone treatment was observed in hypozoo- and oligozoospermia with low initial fructose content in the ejaculate. Fructose content attained its normal range after the treatment. During the therapeutic period 11 wives became pregnant. The authors conclude that Mesterolone does not influence plasma FSH, LH and testosterone levels, it has only peripheral effects.
NOTES: Low dose over a decent 3 month time frame. No measurable influence on HPTA.
_________________________________________________________
#3 : Plasma cholesterol, triglycerides, FSH and testosterone levels of normolipemic male patients with decreased fertility treated with mesterolone.
Abstract
There were no changes in plasma cholesterol, triglycerides, FSH and testosterone levels of 24 healthy men treated with mesterolone for infertility during period of 6 months. The patients were normolipemic and the daily doses were 75 mg. No side-effects were noticed. Mesterolone seems to have too selective or too low androgenic effect with the doses used in orde to have an influence on the lipid metabolism of men.
NOTES: Decent sized group, again healthy, apart from being infertile. Low-medium dose for a pretty long time period. Again no significant suppression.
__________________________________________________________
# 4: The effects of mesterolone on the male accessory sex organs, on spermiogram, plasma testosterone and FSH.
Abstract
42 subfertile male ambulatory patients were treated with Proviron. Moderate oligoastheno-teratozoospermia was the most common injury in sperm analysis. The treatment did not change the amount of plasma FSH, testosterone or prostate phosphatase. Acid phosphatase and citric acid of semen showed an increased activity with mesterolone treatment. The amount of fructose decreased, it is probably due to the increased number of spermatozoa, which need more fructose for their metabolism respectively. The sperm of 93% of the patients improved or stayed unchanged. 30% of the patients developed normozoospermia. 6 pregnancies were achieved.
NOTES: Here, as well as being infertile, the patients are also bedridden. The reasons for this are not given. Nor is the daily dose amount of mesterolone. By itself, this study is hardly anything at all, but taken together with the above studies which also failed to detect endocrine changes, it can be suggestive and so should be considered.
__________________________________________________________
#5 : Effect of non aromatizable androgens on LHRH and TRH responses in primary testicular failure.
Abstract
We have assessed the gonadotropin, TSH and PRL responses to the non aromatizable androgens, mesterolone and fluoxymestrone, in 27 patients with primary testicular failure. All patients were given a bolus of LHRH (100 micrograms) and TRH (200 micrograms) at zero time. Nine subjects received a further bolus of TRH at 30 mins. The latter were then given mesterolone 150 mg daily for 6 weeks. The remaining subjects received fluoxymesterone 5 mg daily for 4 weeks and 10 mg daily for 2 weeks. On the last day of the androgen administration, the subjects were re-challenged with LHRH and TRH according to the identical protocol. When compared to controls, the patients had normal circulating levels of testosterone, estradiol, PRL and thyroid hormones. However, basal LH, FSH and TSH levels, as well as gonadotropin responses to LHRH and TSH and PRL responses to TRH, were increased. Mesterolone administration produced no changes in steroids, thyroid hormones, gonadotropins nor PRL. There was, however, a reduction in the integrated and incremental TSH secretion after TRH. Fluoxymesterone administration was accompanied by a reduction in thyroid binding globulin (with associated decreases in T3 and increases in T3 resin uptake). The free T4 index was unaltered, which implies that thyroid function was unchanged. In addition, during fluoxymesterone administration, there was a reduction in testosterone, gonadotropins and LH response to LHRH. Basal TSH did not vary, but there was a reduction in the peak and integrated TSH response to TRH. PRL levels were unaltered during fluoxymesterone treatment.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)
NOTES: This one is a bit different, as they also gave injections of LHRH. In this small group of subjects, Proviron didn't measurably change the response of LH and FSH (and ultimately testosterone) to LHRH after it had been taken at a medium dose for several weeks. Good to know.
____________________________________________________________
The following DO show suppression with Proviron use:
#6 : The effects of mesterolone, a male sex hormone in depressed patients (a double blind controlled study).
Abstract
Based on computer EEG (CEEG) profiles, in high doses, antidepressant properties of mesterolone, a synthetic androgen, were predicted. In a double-blind placebo controlled study, the clinical effects of 300-450 mg daily mesterolone were investigated in 52 relatively young (age range 26-53 years, mean 42.7 years) male depressed outpatients. During 6 weeks of mesterolone treatment, there was a significant improvement of depressive symptomatology. However, since an improvement was also established during the placebo treatment, no statistically appreciable difference in the therapeutic effects of mesterolone was established compared to placebo. Mesterolone treatment significantly decreased both plasma testosterone and protein bound testosterone levels. Patients with high testosterone levels prior to treatment seem to have had more benefit from mesterolone treatment than patients with low testosterone levels. The degree of improvement weakly correlated to the decrease of testosterone levels during mesterolone treatment.
NOTES: A decent sized group of middleaged men given 300-450 mg for several weeks. That's at least 2-3X the dose given in the studies above.
_____________________________________________________________
#7: The hormone response to a synthetic androgen (mesterolone) in oligospermia.
Abstract
Forty subfertile men with oligospermia were treated with a synthetic androgen (Mesterolone). The effect of the drug was evaluated by measuring serum testosterone, luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and analysing the semen before and after treatment. The results demonstrated that in twenty-three patients treated for 6-9 months there was a significant decrease in serum testosterone (P less than 0.01); the means +/- SEM before and after treatment were 17.05 +/- 0.95 and 14.7 +/- 0.95 (nmol/l serum) respectively. There was a pronounced increase in serum LH (P less than 0.01), the values being 2.73 +/- 0.26 and 3.61 +/- 0.3 (u/l) respectively. However, no significant difference was found in serum FSH before and after treatment. The sperm concentration showed a variable response to treatment. In twenty-one patients there was either no change or worsening in the sperm concentration, whereas in nineteen patients an improvement was observed. The analysis of variance of sperm concentration and motility for the periods before and after treatment, for all the patients, showed no significant difference in the sperm concentration F1.145 = 2.82 (P=0.1).
NOTES: This group was treated for a long time, with testosterone decreasing, but again the dosage used is unknown. Considering the above, it's safe to assume they used high doses, like in #6. Strangely, LH is increased, but this may be due to its pulsatile nature, which makes it more difficult to measure precisely.
______________________________________________________________
CONCLUSION: Just looking at all the subjects in studies 1-4 you see a total of 358 ppl with normally functioning endorine systems take anywhere from 25-150 mg, sometimes for up to 12 months or more, with no measurable change in testosterone. Studies which showed otherwise used or were likely to have used very high doses. Low to medium doses (25-150 mg) of proviron taken when you're HPTA is fully functioning (read: not at the end of a cycle) does not significantly suppress testosterone. Higher doses however have a tendency to.
It really doesn't matter how good/experienced a person is, he simply cannot state much from personal experience other than his subjective feelings, which are, among other things: 1) subject to placebo effect, and 2) even if it isn't placebo, you often don't really know what it indicates (for example, is the increased libido from increased testosterone, or purely dopaminergic?). Most of the people I've known who were not newbies and have trained a while have taken this position more and more.
