Soy vs. Milk

[alexsmom]

I recently read an article that stated how bad Soy products are for us and that actually ingesting too much causes hypothyroid-type symptoms in consumers. It goes on to say a bunch of stuff about how the soy companies are so huge out here and don't want us to know the truth...etc.... I myself switched from nonfat milk to soy a couple of years ago and really like it...especially the Silk Brand soy milk. (Very good by the way for those of you who are having trouble finding a good soy beverage). Now I'm really confused. It also said something about soy containing estrogen and I wondered if this would be detrimental in our weight lifting goals. I recently just started buying milk again and can't stand it. Has anybody else heard something similar to this? I'll try attaching the article...I was having trouble so bare with me. If this doesn't work you can also go to www.soyonlineservice.com. or any almost any thyroid page.

http://thyroid.about.com/library/weekly/aa083099.htm

THanks!

KB

 

[alexsmom]

Bump.

Anybody??

 

[MS]

Soy is fine in moderation. Just make sure you drink whole soy milk, and not that stuff that's blended with lots of other goop to make it tase better.

Those links were ful of a lot of sensationalism. There is conflicting research to be sure, but my favorite most recent article on this topic (which is based on real people over many years rather than in vitro studies) Is:

CONTEXT: A large body of evidence documents the role of phytoestrogens in influencing hormone-dependent states. Infants fed soy formula receive high levels of phytoestrogens, in the form of soy isoflavones, during a stage of development at which permanent effects are theoretically possible. However, a paucity of data exists on the long-term effects of infant soy formulas. OBJECTIVE: To examine the association between infant exposure to soy formula and health in young adulthood, with an emphasis on reproductive health. DESIGN, SETTING, AND PARTICIPANTS: Retrospective cohort study conducted from March to August 1999 among adults aged 20 to 34 years who, as infants, participated during 1965-1978 in controlled feeding studies conducted at the University of Iowa, Iowa City (248 were fed soy formula and 563 were fed cow milk formula during infancy). MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Self-reported pubertal maturation, menstrual and reproductive history, height and usual weight, and current health, compared based on type of formula exposure during infancy. RESULTS: No statistically significant differences were observed between groups in either women or men for more than 30 outcomes. However, women who had been fed soy formula reported slightly longer duration of menstrual bleeding (adjusted mean difference, 0.37 days; 95% confidence interval [CI], 0.06-0.68), with no difference in severity of menstrual flow. They also reported greater discomfort with menstruation (unadjusted relative risk for extreme discomfort vs no or mild pain, 1.77; 95% CI, 1.04-3.00). CONCLUSIONS: Exposure to soy formula does not appear to lead to different general health or reproductive outcomes than exposure to cow milk formula. Although the few positive findings should be explored in future studies, our findings are reassuring about the safety of infant soy formula.


Strom BL, Schinnar R, Ziegler EE, Barnhart KT, Sammel MD, Macones GA, Stallings VA, Drulis JM, Nelson SE, Hanson SA.
University of Pennsylvania, Center for Clinical Epidemiology and Biostatistics, 824 Blockley Hall, 423 Guardian Dr, Philadelphia, PA 19104-6021, USA. [email protected]

JAMA 2001 Aug 15;286(7):807-14

I can give you plenty of other research that would seem to disagree with those links you presented, but there is still two sides of the story. Just remember, all things in moderation. I wouldn't advise you to drink too much cow, goat, sheep, almond, yak or rice milk either!

 

[THEENDISNEAR]

Only one problem wit Silk

SUGAR!!!


the end

 

[THEENDISNEAR]

I didnt no that they made any lo carb varieties. My grocer only has the flavored ones.

the end

 

[MS]

rriis, those articles you cited are exactly the kind of twisting of data that I am talking about in the anti-soy lobbies.

First of all, whoever wrote it had a very poor grasp of basic hormone biology by stating that phytoestrogens (and estrogens) "can either bind to high-affinity, highly specific receptors in the cell nucleus which, in turn, attach to DNA regions of genes that lead to protein transcription, in effect acting as a real estrogen, or they can simply bind to these receptor sites and sit there, preventing real estrogen from getting its parking space and initiating transcription."

This is fundamentally incorrect. Neither estrogen nor phytoestrogen enter cells, so they cannot bind to DNA. However they can cause the receptor they bind to send a signal that will ultimately lead to changes in transcription of the DNA.

To keep this short, I will not address all the other issues that 'journalist' raised unless this becomes a hot topic. I will however copy the references that T-Mag used to defend their stance: (caps are my comments)

References
Strauss, et al. "Genistein exerts estrogen-like effects in male mouse reproductive tract," Mol Cell Endocrinol 1998 Sep 25;144(1-2);83-93
STUDY DONE ON MICE
2) Casanova M, et al. "Developmental effects of dietary phytoestrogens in Sprague-Dawley rats and interactions of genistein and diadzein with rat estrogen receptors alpha and beta in vitro," Toxicol Sci 1999 Oct;51(2):236-44
STUDY DONE ON RATS
Kumi-Diaka J, et al. "Cytotoxic potential of the phytochemical genistein isoflavone and certain environmental chemical compounds on testicular cells," Biol Cell, 1999 Sep;91 (7): 515-23
THIS STUDY WAS LOOKING AT GENISTEIN COMBINED WITH DEXAMETHASONE OR SODIUM AZIDE AS CHEMO TREATMENT FOR PROSTATE. COMBINED WAS THE KEY WORD!!
Anderson, et al. "Effect of various genotoxins and reproductive toxins in human lymphocytes and sperm in Comet assay," Teratog Carcinog Mutagen 1997;17(1);29-43
A STUDY BASICALLY DONE 'IN A TEST TUBE' WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE ANY RELEVANCE TO REAL LIFE
Hopert, et al. "Characterization of estrogenicity of phytoestrogens in an endometrial-derived experimental model," Environ Health Perspect 1998 Sep;106(9); 581-6
NOW WE'RE STRETCHING IT EVEN MORE. THIS WAS A RAT ENDOMETRIAL CANCER CELL LINE. IT WAS NOT HUMAN, IT WAS NOT NORMAL, AND IT WAS USING A TISSUE THAT ISN'T EVEN PRESENT IN MALES
Setchell, et al. "Dietary Estrogens-a probable cause of infertility and liver disease in captive cheetahs," Gasteroenterology 1987 Aug;93(2);225-33
IT IS TEMPTING TO NOT EVEN BOTHER COMMENTING ON THIS ONE, BUT I WANT TO POINT OUT TO WOULD-BE ZOO KEEPERS THAT SOYBEANS MAY NOT BE AN IDEAL FOOD FOR CHEETAHS (SNICKER)

Okay enough shouting. Please reread the JAMA September 2001 article I posted previously that used real, whole, normal humans from infancy into their 20' and 30's. This does not mean that soy is absolutely and unquestionabl;y safe for humans to consume since no one has followed the study group participants to their graves. However I have no qualms about eating soy, and lots of it.

 

[MS]

Oops, I must've read only the first installment of those soy-bashing articles. I don't have time to address the second article just now, but I'll get to it soon if you want.

 

[alexsmom]

Wow...well thanks to all for the info. Again, there's still conflicting info which is what is so frustrating. I guess like MS said, everything in moderation is the way to go. By the way, I believe it's the Silk Brand "Plain" Soy Beverage in the red carton that only has 4 grams of sugar....the vanilla and chocolate have quite a bit more. The only thing I can think of is that I was quite a bit leaner when I was drinking nonfat milk so I may go back to it and see what happens.

 

[MS]

"Your obviously some sort of soy fanatic."

Ummmm no. I drink Almond milk because it tastes better, though I do eat some tofu.

" I have read numerous articles stating that a high soy diet is not as effective in MUSCLE BUILDING as other proteins. "

Yes, the anti-soy lobby is very prolific in their 'article' writing. Also, a diet high in soy is not the same as a diet that contains soy. Again, all things in moderation.

"I didn't say anything about it being dangerous or "not safe" as you seemed to suggest I did. I mearly put a link to an article for others to read and come to their own conclusions."

Yes thank you. That article seemed to suggest that soy was indeed unsafe. They had no human scientific evidence to support their notions. That's what gets under my skin.

"Anyone can disect studies and find holes. "

And that's is exactly what bodybuilders should do when it comes to making nutrition and lifestyle choices.

"What do you expect researchers to use as "rats" anyway? "

Ummmmm Humans like in the JAMA study. Why do you have a problem with using humans to study the effects of consuming soy?"

" I still choose not to use soy and will continue to advocate this. Any articles I have read considering anabolic uses of soy protein indicate this as well. "

I have no problem with food choices you make, whether based on hype/fear/propaganda or scientific research or personal experience. I have a problem with people spreading hype/fear/propaganda.

BTW alexsmom. There is some evidence that a mixture of dairy and soy proteins is particularly beneficial fo female bodybuilders. So why not use both???

 

[alexsmom]

MS-
I actually do use soy cheese slices and i'm sure the protein bars I eat occasionally contain soy also. I'd like to try this almond milk you mentioned. Sounds pretty good. I noticed it's being carried more and more in grocery stores. Thanks for all your informative information, by the way.