Soreness dilemma.

[TerraNoble]

After almost 5 yeasr of weight training and running I had a two months hiatus due some health problems.

I got back in the swing of things and start to work out again 2 days ago.

Now I have a bad soreness and I was wondering if I shouldwork out thru the soreness or wait a few more days to ease up.

thanks
'terra

 

[SSAlexSS]

After almost 5 yeasr of weight training and running I had a two months hiatus due some health problems.

I got back in the swing of things and start to work out again 2 days ago.

Now I have a bad soreness and I was wondering if I shouldwork out thru the soreness or wait a few more days to ease up.

thanks
'terra

Work out rhrough soreness. It will disappear if you work through it.

Remember you can be sored, but noty overtrained. You may be overtrained but you arent sore.

Working through soreness can make the musclke recover faster. Take it or leave it. That what research has determined.

 

[aurelius]

to TERRANOBLE

Check the thread "Bodybuilders are stronger than powerlifters" before taking any advice form SSAlexS.

Could you show us your research, Alex?


Here´s mine:

"There are two basic mechanisms that explain how exercise initiates muscle damage. One is associated with the disturbance of metabolic function, while the other refers to the mechanical disruption of the muscle cell. Whenever muscle soreness occurs, one should immediatley alter the training program because pursuing it at the same level will bring the strength trainer one step closer to overtraining.
...Both mechanisms of muscle damage are related to muscle fibers that have been stressed slightly, and when this occurs, they quickly return to normal length wihtout injury. If the stress is sever, the muscle becomes traumatized. Discomfort sets in after the first 24 to 48 hours.
...For years, lacitc acid buildup was considered the main cause of muscle soreness. Research has discovered, however, the the actual cuase results from an influx of calcium ions into the muscle."



THis is from Tudor Bompa´s Serious Strength Training. He recommends 3 to 5 days rest before returning to the gym. THese calcium ions are catabolic when they remain in the muscle and cause soreness. You have overtrained and need rest.

 

[gymtime]

I have to disagree with aurelius. If I waited 3-5 days every time I got sore, I'd only be able to work out once a week. As long as you're allowing enough rest between workouts, it's ok to work through the soreness. I think once your body gets used to lifting again, you won't be sore as much.

And no, I have no scientific reasearch to back this up, only my experience. Take it for what it's worth.

 

[Screwball]

I agree with Aurelius...

Gymtime, I believe the soreness is within a specific muscle group. Hence, chest every 3-5 days, quads every 3-5 days, etc... If a muscle is sore then it's best to postpone training until the muscle is sufficiently healed. There is nothing wrong with training a muscle if there is still a "little" lingering soreness. However, I believe in the long run muscle gains in size and strength can be maximized if a muscle is allowed to completely heal before training it again. I can't regurgitate the actual scientific studies but research has shown that training the entire body with intense, varied training once or twice a week has been the best way to maximize muscle growth and strength. Overtraining (along with deficient diet) is holding back a huge majority of trainers today from maximizing their gains.

- Screwball

 

[SSAlexSS]

Re: to TERRANOBLE

Check the thread "Bodybuilders are stronger than powerlifters" before taking any advice form SSAlexS.

Could you show us your research, Alex?


Here´s mine:

"There are two basic mechanisms that explain how exercise initiates muscle damage. One is associated with the disturbance of metabolic function, while the other refers to the mechanical disruption of the muscle cell. Whenever muscle soreness occurs, one should immediatley alter the training program because pursuing it at the same level will bring the strength trainer one step closer to overtraining.
...Both mechanisms of muscle damage are related to muscle fibers that have been stressed slightly, and when this occurs, they quickly return to normal length wihtout injury. If the stress is sever, the muscle becomes traumatized. Discomfort sets in after the first 24 to 48 hours.
...For years, lacitc acid buildup was considered the main cause of muscle soreness. Research has discovered, however, the the actual cuase results from an influx of calcium ions into the muscle."



THis is from Tudor Bompa´s Serious Strength Training. He recommends 3 to 5 days rest before returning to the gym. THese calcium ions are catabolic when they remain in the muscle and cause soreness. You have overtrained and need rest.

When you train you initiate a host of metabolic processes. Additional training can clear up those painfull soreness causing chemicals. Plus after you train your muscle starts to recover. 1 + 1 recovery sessions = 2... 2 as good.

Some people train chest 8 times per week for max gains, it works. Obviously you arent recovered enough, that is why you need to taper off.


3-5 days for muscle grioup to wait to recover, or going to he gym every 3-5 times per week?

Stop reading Mentzer's idiocy. He is a lunatic from a galaxy far far away. - Not my idea, somone elses idea. I cant come up with such original stuff.... HHAHAHAH


Working a muscle that is sore - even one that has been injured - will cause the muscle to recover much more rapidly that resting the muscle.

That has been concluded during decades of research. And validated by countless athletes.


take it or leave it.

 

[SSAlexSS]

Re: I agree with Aurelius...

Gymtime, I believe the soreness is within a specific muscle group. Hence, chest every 3-5 days, quads every 3-5 days, etc... If a muscle is sore then it's best to postpone training until the muscle is sufficiently healed. There is nothing wrong with training a muscle if there is still a "little" lingering soreness. However, I believe in the long run muscle gains in size and strength can be maximized if a muscle is allowed to completely heal before training it again. I can't regurgitate the actual scientific studies but research has shown that training the entire body with intense, varied training once or twice a week has been the best way to maximize muscle growth and strength. Overtraining (along with deficient diet) is holding back a huge majority of trainers today from maximizing their gains.

- Screwball

to maximize strenth you need to train 6 days MINIMUM.

One of the best strength athletes (hungarian) train 6 days oper week UP TO 5 WORKOUTS PER DAY!



Once time per week is bad/slow for gains. On myself I saw that I for biggest deadlifting strength increase I must train 2x per week (maybe more... I havent tested more often lifting. I read too much Mentzer bull )

 

[gymtime]

Re: I agree with Aurelius...

Gymtime, I believe the soreness is within a specific muscle group. Hence, chest every 3-5 days, quads every 3-5 days, etc... If a muscle is sore then it's best to postpone training until the muscle is sufficiently healed. There is nothing wrong with training a muscle if there is still a "little" lingering soreness. However, I believe in the long run muscle gains in size and strength can be maximized if a muscle is allowed to completely heal before training it again. I can't regurgitate the actual scientific studies but research has shown that training the entire body with intense, varied training once or twice a week has been the best way to maximize muscle growth and strength. Overtraining (along with deficient diet) is holding back a huge majority of trainers today from maximizing their gains.

- Screwball

Screwball, just to clarify, I've always been a believer in one muscle group per week for training. So I'll always have 6-7 rest between specific muscle groups. However, I read the original question to mean, "if I'm still sore from doing chest on monday, is it ok to do back on wednesday?" In other words, if one bodypart is still sore after a couple days, is it ok to go work a different one today? In that case, I think it's fine.

However, I wouldn't recommend that anyone work chest, for example, with only two days rest and especially if they were still experiencing soreness.

I hope that made at least some sense. It's been a long ass week.

 

[bignate73]

heres what some say:

"Initially, you should avoid any vigorous activity that increases pain, though you may work the unaffected areas of your body. By exercising unaffected areas or by performing low-impact aerobic activities such as biking or walking at a moderate pace, blood flow can be increased to the affected muscles, which may help diminish soreness. "

"Other measures include applying ice, gently stretching, and massaging the affected muscles, which may be helpful for some people and poses little risk if done sensibly. Also, nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory medications like aspirin or ibuprofen may reduce the soreness temporarily, though they won't actually speed healing. These medications are available over the counter, and they can be prescribed by physicians in greater strengths. And there is some evidence that vitamin C may decrease soreness. "

"Finally, you should allow the soreness, weakness, and stiffness to subside thoroughly before vigorously exercising the affected muscles again, and don't forget to stretch and warm up before your targeted activity. If your pain persists longer than about 7 days or increases despite these measures, consult your physician. "

-Captain Ross is a physical therapist and instructor in the department of biology at the United States Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs. He is a member of the Orthopedic section of the American Physical Therapy Association.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

When DOMS has been caused, later exercise has been shown to reduce pain scores for some time after, but not to effect the overall time scale of recovery. During the period in which strength is likely to be reduced, any exercise should be performed at low intensities. Anti-inflammatories can reduce the pain temporarily, but again do not effect the course. Massage of an inflamed swollen muscle should help the symptoms and some studies support this but without any long term benefit. Gentle stretching may prevent adhesions from occurring in the muscle and speed recovery but there is no scientific evidence to support this.

Summary DOMS should be avoided not because of the risk of permanent damage - there is no evidence of this - but because it requires a period of rest afterwards to avoid risking permanent damage by tearing a weakened muscle. It can be avoided by introducing eccentric work gradually - remember that protection is conferred within 24-48 hours. It should be treated by reducing exercise workloads considerably to light exercise only, incorporating gentle stretching to reduce the symptoms.

-Dr. Tom Crisp FitPro


i wasnt able to find anything that said, keep on training, other than at light intensity. other than that...let the pain subside or heal up thoroughly before hitting it hard again.

 

[NateDogg]

If I get sore the same night, or early the next morning after a workout, is that bad. Let me rephrase that, how much of a delay before soreness does there have to be before it would be called DOMS? Also, often, after absolute balls out intensity in a workout (legs two days ago) I may be sore for 4 or 5 days. Is that then considered DOMS no matter when it started?

TIA,

ND

 

[bignate73]

If I get sore the same night, or early the next morning after a workout, is that bad. Let me rephrase that, how much of a delay before soreness does there have to be before it would be called DOMS? Also, often, after absolute balls out intensity in a workout (legs two days ago) I may be sore for 4 or 5 days. Is that then considered DOMS no matter when it started?

TIA,

ND

there is a difference between immediate soreness post workout and that which shows up 24-48 hours (DOMS) after a workout.

 

[aurelius]

Great post BigNate.

This "working the muscle" needed clarification.

 

[Edu]

mentzer is a lunatic?

you make me laugh, arthur jones, mentzer, and some other show the best way to build muscles.

 

[SSAlexSS]

mentzer is a lunatic?

you make me laugh, arthur jones, mentzer, and some other show the best way to build muscles.

Menzter is a lunatic. He took too much amphetamines (read a CRACK ADDICT).

His methods are Welcome relief from 6 days per week 2 a day Arnold training. But, while Arnold took it to one extreme Menzter took it toward other extreme.

Extremes of training arent good for muscle building.

BUT Arnolds type of training IS more reasonable for muscle growth than menzters.


I am glad that I stoped following Menzter. Deadlifting twice or even 3 times a week has really been nice (I actually had three workouts days last week).

Now I know why I had problems deadlifting once a week. i was constantly detraining!!!!

 

[Edu]

It's ridiculous, 1 set it's what you nedd to grow, and everbody can prove this, go to the gym and do it.
But, do correctly, read a lot of heavy duty, and high intensity tranning, than after go to the gym, and see the results.

 

[Edu]

Don't say that mentzer is a lunatic, because you are the only that don't see results with hevy duty.
probabily your trainning was wrong.

 

[needsize]

Once time per week is bad/slow for gains. On myself I saw that I for biggest deadlifting strength increase I must train 2x per week (maybe more... I havent tested more often lifting. I read too much Mentzer bull )

SSAlexSS, there is apparently no end to your theories is there? Christ, I'm still waiting to see you back up your theories with some evidence, say a pic, to show us what they have accomplished on your physique?

If 1x per week per body part is not enough, then explain why that is the way that I have made all of my gains, size and strength. I'm not high on myself but this 1x per week training has given me a very advanced physique with pics on here to prove it, and even though I'm not a powerlifter, this training has allowed me to hit lifts big enough to compete as one.

Show us what your theories have done for you...........

 

[Complete Muscle]

...Initially, you should avoid any vigorous activity that increases pain, though you may work the unaffected areas of your body. By exercising unaffected areas or by performing low-impact aerobic activities such as biking or walking at a moderate pace, blood flow can be increased to the affected muscles, which may help diminish soreness...

This pretty much sums up my experience! I had to lower my volume considerably to deal with extreme DOMS. And that's when I really started seeing results!

 

[HighIntensity]

as mentioned before soreness is a normal part of training. After time your body will adjust and you will not experince as much discomfort, as long as there is no pain work through it/.

 

[SSAlexSS]

It's ridiculous, 1 set it's what you nedd to grow, and everbody can prove this, go to the gym and do it.
But, do correctly, read a lot of heavy duty, and high intensity tranning, than after go to the gym, and see the results.

OK.

It was shown MANY times that 3 sets is better than one.

Furthermore strength increase is vital for muscle increase. Guess what do strongest people do to achieve strength? They never train to failure! And they do it with multiple sets.

There arent any good HIT bodybuilders (except menzer himself).
Howeever there are PLENTY higher volume training people.

Look there are few good ways to train, and HIT just inst there.

Dont train to FAIL, train to SUCCEED!

 

[SSAlexSS]

SSAlexSS, there is apparently no end to your theories is there? Christ, I'm still waiting to see you back up your theories with some evidence, say a pic, to show us what they have accomplished on your physique?

If 1x per week per body part is not enough, then explain why that is the way that I have made all of my gains, size and strength. I'm not high on myself but this 1x per week training has given me a very advanced physique with pics on here to prove it, and even though I'm not a powerlifter, this training has allowed me to hit lifts big enough to compete as one.

Show us what your theories have done for you...........

I really hate to give out good info away, but here it goes.

The reason why it is good to train more often is that you can add more weight in a week.

If you train 1x per week than you might add only 1X every workout.
If you train 2x per week, then you could add 1x each workjout total 2X!

2x might not see as much. But by the end of a year it WILL add up.

One of the best guys who train for olympic lifts train up to like 20 times per week.
Now ofcourse that is an extreme, but it is just here to illustrate a point.

Dont lift 20 times per bodypart per week. But hit atleast 2x....

 

[aurelius]

Alex: you´re dead wrong on the 3 sets over 1 set theory.

http://www.cbass.com/newevide.htm

go here.

 

[SSAlexSS]

Alex: you´re dead wrong on the 3 sets over 1 set theory.

http://www.cbass.com/newevide.htm

go here.

There are many research done on this issue. Its fact 3 sets is much better than 1.

People like to say that "1 signal is enough" . Well, what if weather is bad or environmental whateever disrupts it? Further more, muscle grows in DIRECT correlation to stress. More stress is better. More sets also condition nervous system more allowing you take handle more stress, and thus it is easier for you to recuperate.

There are 2 ways to grow muscle, and for max size BOTH needs to be used.

1st) More strength. Now 1 set may be enough for strength, BUT why do it each week? Why not do it more often to have MORE strength quicker.

2nd) VOLUME. There is irrational hypertrophy (sarcoplasmic) . For that to happen ypui must have volume, you must fatigue your muscle. And no, you young Menzters, 1 set never could and never will fatique/pump your muscles enough. Yes you could take those purple dumbells, you have a fatigue and you have a pump from set of 100 reps... But you dont have sufficient tension.

10-20 sets of 5 reps will give you a pump, fatigue, and most important TENSION.


As you see HIT misses the muscle growth fence by atleast 20 yards!

 

[SSAlexSS]

Alex: you´re dead wrong on the 3 sets over 1 set theory.

http://www.cbass.com/newevide.htm

go here.

Sorry man. I just have to say this

Read teh article again. It says 3 times per week!!!! Not once per week. Now 3 sets 3 times per week could have been too hard for some to handle at this point. That is why those results were the same.

That article doesnt say that 1 is better then three. Those people either went to failure or weren't conditioned enough to tolerate 3 sets. That article doesnt break 3 better than 1 fact.

 

[Belial]

Yes you could take those purple dumbells, you have a fatigue and you have a pump from set of 100 reps... But you dont have sufficient tension.

But if you did 100 reps, that would mean that overall you're stronger than a powerlifter doing 98 times the weight of that purple dumbbell for a single!

 

[SSAlexSS]

But if you did 100 reps, that would mean that overall you're stronger than a powerlifter doing 98 times the weight of that purple dumbbell for a single!

No. It would take you some time to finish that "set", in which time anyone could have done couple strong sets and beat.


ANd this has NOTHING to do with what I am talking here. Dont enter this crapensation.

 

[SSAlexSS]

It's ridiculous, 1 set it's what you nedd to grow, and everbody can prove this, go to the gym and do it.
But, do correctly, read a lot of heavy duty, and high intensity tranning, than after go to the gym, and see the results.

WHA???

Go to any good powerlifting gym and see how people train there. Lots of sets, few reps, never going to failure and GOOD phisiques!

 

[Belial]

I know it has nothing to do with it, I'm just laughing at you.


I think you're ignoring the single most important part of training: Individual responses to training stimulus. There are SO many variables, every trainee is different. Some can grow working out almost every day of the week. Some people are bordering on overtraining hitting the gym hard THREE times a week. Arnold had unbelievable recovery (and a good amount of sauce, no doubt), so he could do 2-a-days. Olympic weightlifters do NOT train for 45-50 minutes to failure. They do a lot of submaximal work, training strictly for technique, practicing with very light weights, etc. They are NOT trying to hit PRs 20 times a week, they would simply collapse. They're also not training for hypertrophy.

I don't believe in 1 set to failure, but I believe that you can progress very well training each body part once a week. I may not be as strong as needsize, but I've also made pretty damn good gains since I wised up and lowered my volume.

 

[SSAlexSS]

mentzer is a lunatic?

you make me laugh, arthur jones, mentzer, and some other show the best way to build muscles.

The reason Arthur jones talked about 1 set crapple is this:


1 set takes less time and effort and thus MORE people could do it. Some people are intimidated by the volume so they dont go to the gym.

Arthur needed money to pay for his highly expensive nautilus equipment. If everyone did 1 set, you could fit in more customers to the equipment!!

We live in CAPITALISM ! this stuff makes money, so those people do it. Guys who have money in something DONT care if you improve or not, all matters if their wallet becomes larger.


Look at Enron.

'nuff said.

 

[SSAlexSS]

I know it has nothing to do with it, I'm just laughing at you.


I think you're ignoring the single most important part of training: Individual responses to training stimulus. There are SO many variables, every trainee is different. Some can grow working out almost every day of the week. Some people are bordering on overtraining hitting the gym hard THREE times a week. Arnold had unbelievable recovery (and a good amount of sauce, no doubt), so he could do 2-a-days. Olympic weightlifters do NOT train for 45-50 minutes to failure. They do a lot of submaximal work, training strictly for technique, practicing with very light weights, etc. They are NOT trying to hit PRs 20 times a week, they would simply collapse. They're also not training for hypertrophy.

I don't believe in 1 set to failure, but I believe that you can progress very well training each body part once a week. I may not be as strong as needsize, but I've also made pretty damn good gains since I wised up and lowered my volume.

Well. I beleive that since you can improve your muscle strength/size you can improve your recovery abilities as well.


yes you can progress well training once per week, but there might and probably are better things. What I find is that many HIT people just dont train to the max. It could be wse for them to swith to more frequent trainign anyways.

Anyways since I am basing from my personal observations I might be wrong. Howeever I found that 2-3 times per week has worked cool for me, for now atleast... I surpised myself with myh deadlifitng increase by trasining more often.... Who knows...
And I usually always have been training too little (2x days per week, each muscle 1x per week)


EVeryone! Keep working and keep increasing volume (to reasonable amounts though).

 

[aurelius]

Alex Wrote: "That article doesnt say that 1 is better then three. Those people either went to failure or weren't conditioned enough to tolerate 3 sets. That article doesnt break 3 better than 1 fact."

WRONG AGAIN, ALEX.

Here is an excerpt from the article you obviouisly didn´t read very well addressing your "problem" with this theory.

p.s. Where are you from originally?


The final study by the Pollock group (Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise. Supplement 30(5): S115, 1998) addresses the training experience issue. As you'll recall, some have suggested that experienced trainers might benefit from higher volume. In other words, after you've been training for a while, you need increased volume to continue progressing - more is better. According to this study, those people should think anew.

The researchers recruited 40 adults who had been performing one set to muscular fatigue, using nine exercises, for a minimum of one year; average training time was six years. The participants were randomly assigned to either a one-set or three-set group; both groups did 8-12 reps to failure three days per week for 13 weeks.

Both groups significantly increased their one-rep maximum strength and endurance. There was no significant difference in the gains made by the two groups in the leg extension, leg curl, bench press, overhead press and arm curl. The researchers concluded: "These data indicate that 1 set of [resistance training] is equally as beneficial as 3 sets in experienced resistance trained adults."

Another research group, K.L. Ostrowski and colleagues, tested "the effect of weight training volume on hormonal output and muscular size and function" in experienced trainers. (Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research. 11(3): 148-154, 1997) Thirty-five males, with one to four years weight-training experience, were assigned to one of three training groups: one-set, two-sets, or four sets. All participants did what I would call a periodized routine; they changed the rep range every few weeks. They did free-weight exercises four times a week for ten weeks using 12 reps maximum (week 1-4), 7 reps max (week 5-7) and 9 reps (week 8-10). All sets were performed to muscular fatigue with three minutes rest between sets. The only difference between the three programs was the number of sets.

As in the Pollock group studies, no significant differences in results were found. The authors concluded: "...A low volume program ... [one set of each exercise] ... results in increases in muscle size and function similar to programs with two to four times as much volume."

Significantly, regarding hormone output, they concluded: "High volume [four sets of each exercise] may result in a shift in the testosterone/cortisol (anabolic/catabolic) ratio in some individuals, suggesting the possibility of overtraining." In other words, high-volume training not only doesn't produce better results, it may also lead to overtraining.

 

[SSAlexSS]

Alex Wrote: "That article doesnt say that 1 is better then three. Those people either went to failure or weren't conditioned enough to tolerate 3 sets. That article doesnt break 3 better than 1 fact."

WRONG AGAIN, ALEX.

Here is an excerpt from the article you obviouisly didn´t read very well addressing your "problem" with this theory.

p.s. Where are you from originally?


The final study by the Pollock group (Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise. Supplement 30(5): S115, 1998) addresses the training experience issue. As you'll recall, some have suggested that experienced trainers might benefit from higher volume. In other words, after you've been training for a while, you need increased volume to continue progressing - more is better. According to this study, those people should think anew.

The researchers recruited 40 adults who had been performing one set to muscular fatigue, using nine exercises, for a minimum of one year; average training time was six years. The participants were randomly assigned to either a one-set or three-set group; both groups did 8-12 reps to failure three days per week for 13 weeks.

Both groups significantly increased their one-rep maximum strength and endurance. There was no significant difference in the gains made by the two groups in the leg extension, leg curl, bench press, overhead press and arm curl. The researchers concluded: "These data indicate that 1 set of [resistance training] is equally as beneficial as 3 sets in experienced resistance trained adults."

Another research group, K.L. Ostrowski and colleagues, tested "the effect of weight training volume on hormonal output and muscular size and function" in experienced trainers. (Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research. 11(3): 148-154, 1997) Thirty-five males, with one to four years weight-training experience, were assigned to one of three training groups: one-set, two-sets, or four sets. All participants did what I would call a periodized routine; they changed the rep range every few weeks. They did free-weight exercises four times a week for ten weeks using 12 reps maximum (week 1-4), 7 reps max (week 5-7) and 9 reps (week 8-10). All sets were performed to muscular fatigue with three minutes rest between sets. The only difference between the three programs was the number of sets.

As in the Pollock group studies, no significant differences in results were found. The authors concluded: "...A low volume program ... [one set of each exercise] ... results in increases in muscle size and function similar to programs with two to four times as much volume."

Significantly, regarding hormone output, they concluded: "High volume [four sets of each exercise] may result in a shift in the testosterone/cortisol (anabolic/catabolic) ratio in some individuals, suggesting the possibility of overtraining." In other words, high-volume training not only doesn't produce better results, it may also lead to overtraining.

If all those guys did was curl, leg extension, leg curl, bench, and overhead press, IT WAS A JOKE!! Where are squats? Where are deads??? I dont seem them

That report is probably aimed at "average joe" who needs someone to make him feel better for only doing 1 set.

Also the guys were performing a set to "muscular fatigue" ? What is that, curling 10 pound pink dumbells?

Furthermore 3 MINUTES BETWEEN SETS? Are you kidding? Oh my god can you picture this " I feel wasted from this set of arm curls" . I need to get a short break.


Well ofcourse when you take so much time IN BETWEEN sets, more sets would suck because it would take much more time.

For a good experiment, YOU MUST have 45s MAX break between sets unless you are doing a very strenuos power training (something that was nt been done that).


In short, that study was BAD BEYONG BELEIF!


1 set has never been the require amount. You need to hammer the nail. Yeh I wish I could get an A in harvard from 1 hour of study for each test... Ofcourse that doesnt work. You need HOURS to prepare for tests.

Also periodization is bull. It is a myth. And it was used in these "studies" which doesnt raise its credibility.

Get a study that used Bench/DEAD/SQUAT combo.... Not those pink dumbells for set of ten reps.

WE ARE BODYBUILDERS! Not tone-builders!

 

[aurelius]

You failed your rhetoric class, didn´t you.

Classic ad hominem attacks like "That report is probably aimed at "average joe" who needs someone to make him feel better for only doing 1 set."

Try attacking the data.

They gave you the rep ranges so it couldn´t have been those "pink " dumbells you always mention.

You didn´t say where you were from. So?

 

[bignate73]

For a good experiment, YOU MUST have 45s MAX break between sets unless you are doing a very strenuos power training (something that was nt been done that). actually its a little over a minute to replenish ATP stores up above 90%


In short, that study was BAD BEYONG BELEIF! no it wasnt, the results, as stated, speak for themselves. hypertrophy was gained at the same rate with the 1 set group as the 3 set group. as an inside hint, hypertrophy means muscle growth. (thats what bodybuilding is about)


1 set has never been the require amount.DOGMA You need to hammer the nail. Yeh I wish I could get an A in harvard from 1 hour of study for each test... Ofcourse that doesnt work. You need HOURS to prepare for tests. learning and physical adaptation is like apples and oranges

Also periodization is bull. It is a myth. And it was used in these "studies" which doesnt raise its credibility. is it? have any studies?

Get a study that used Bench/DEAD/SQUAT combo.... Not those pink dumbells for set of ten reps. get a grant and do your own, until then you have to take what studies are out there, and there are many, and go with it. special combos of exercises wont change the results, as belial says...muscles are dumb and will respond to a stimulus, not an exercise.

WE ARE BODYBUILDERS! Not tone-builders!

speak for yourself. a true bodybuilder finds the most efficient way to get to the finish line. if you want to run the long way, by all means go ahead, but there may not be enough chicken at the party when you get there.

 

[aurelius]

Intriguing reply. You´re very sharp, Big Nate.

Keep playing your cards right and you just might make my buddy list.

all the best

 

[SSAlexSS]

Intriguing reply. You´re very sharp, Big Nate.

Keep playing your cards right and you just might make my buddy list.

all the best

Something to pinder on 3vs1.

1 all out set ot failure really depletes yoiur nervous system, and thus you have to train infrequent. Infrequent gains in strength.muscle


3 non to failure sets = More total reps (more growth factor released) aand LESS recovery time since your nervous system is not taxed so much. This you could recover faster and train MORE OFTEN.

no tyime to go into details. mid term tommorow!

 

[bignate73]

Something to pinder on 3vs1.

1 all out set ot failure really depletes yoiur nervous system, and thus you have to train infrequent. Infrequent gains in strength.muscle


3 non to failure sets = More total reps (more growth factor released) aand LESS recovery time since your nervous system is not taxed so much. This you could recover faster and train MORE OFTEN.

no tyime to go into details. mid term tommorow!

do you make this up as you go along?

ive never heard such nonsense. its like you make up bits of information just to make your side look right.

the nervous system adapts way quicker than the muscular system. and what does this 1 set to failure tax so completely? neurotransmitters?

taxing the nervous system is a GOOD THING since it will inherently allow more fiber recruitment, better coordination and as a result, increased strength. in the quest for muscular gains its always a balance game of nervous system/muscular system. one becomes efficient the other catches up. one makes progress which allows you to increase in the other. hence the word "plateau".

 

[SSAlexSS]

do you make this up as you go along?

ive never heard such nonsense. its like you make up bits of information just to make your side look right.

the nervous system adapts way quicker than the muscular system. and what does this 1 set to failure tax so completely? neurotransmitters?

taxing the nervous system is a GOOD THING since it will inherently allow more fiber recruitment, better coordination and as a result, increased strength. in the quest for muscular gains its always a balance game of nervous system/muscular system. one becomes efficient the other catches up. one makes progress which allows you to increase in the other. hence the word "plateau".

No I read lots of physiology material. It is fact that 3 sets non failure tax nervous system less. Less taxating means less time in between workouts =MORE GROWTH!

WHat is the point in taxcing your nervous system so much that muscle just sits there idle doing nothing and maybe even starting to atrophy?

 

[bignate73]

No I read lots of physiology material. It is fact that 3 sets non failure tax nervous system less. Less taxating means less time in between workouts =MORE GROWTH!

WHat is the point in taxcing your nervous system so much that muscle just sits there idle doing nothing and maybe even starting to atrophy?

ive heard it all now. ATROPHY?!?

how can YOU tell that your nervous system is so taxed. stimulating neural gains wont incapacitate someone. ive never woken up and thought, "damn...i cant seem to get my nervous system working." i think you are mistaking intensity in one all out set for the "nervous system being taxed". its intense yes, the nervous system gets a beating, the muscles get a beating. atrophy? that wont set in for quite some time. i highly doubt even with this "minor use" that you infer that muscles get from a highly neural workout, that muscles will atrophy.

dont settle for the dogmatic belief that you need more volume to grow. weight training is the stimulus for growth. workload may increase as someone becomes more conditioned, and thats where you periodize your training, emphasize other facets, (balance, strength, proprioception etc) so you continue to make gains in your ultimate goal: hypertrophy.

 

[needsize]

I really hate to give out good info away, but here it goes.

The reason why it is good to train more often is that you can add more weight in a week.

If you train 1x per week than you might add only 1X every workout.
If you train 2x per week, then you could add 1x each workjout total 2X!

2x might not see as much. But by the end of a year it WILL add up.

One of the best guys who train for olympic lifts train up to like 20 times per week.
Now ofcourse that is an extreme, but it is just here to illustrate a point.

Dont lift 20 times per bodypart per week. But hit atleast 2x....

That is fine in theory, but the body has a finite ability to continually add weight at every workout. Attempting to add weight to the bar, 2 or more times a week, is going to result in your body plateauing very quickly, that is unless you are not training with maximum intensity.
In say 8 weeks, training with only natural supplements, can you add 40lbs to your bench, and 80lbs or so to both your deads and squats. Before I decided to try anabolics, I was able to do that using just creatine and protein, evertime I aimed for it. Can you, using your "2x per week/adding weight every time" philosophy, add more weight that that in that span of time. If you say you can SSAlexSS, then you are either a beginner (they progress very quickly), or are full of crap.

 

[Arioch]

Alex, where do you get the "theory of unlimited progress from?"

I have been lifting for thirty years, and if, as you state, the more you train the more you can add weight, I should total somewhere over 4000 lbs. in my next meet.

Are you aware of the fact that many OL'ers, myself included, will often train with sub-maximal weights with the intent of improving skill instead of stressing the cns through maximal effort? And there is a big difference between stressing the CNS (or the PSNS or SSNS for that matter) via repetitive effort and all out intensity (in this case, intensity is referred to as % of 1rm).

Also, while certain OL'ers may train up to 20 times a week, with the Bulgarian team having the highest total tonnage per week, these are not only elite athletes, but athletes who have been selected to specifically tolerate their training program, making this a closed circle argument.

 

[SSAlexSS]

ive heard it all now. ATROPHY?!?

how can YOU tell that your nervous system is so taxed. stimulating neural gains wont incapacitate someone. ive never woken up and thought, "damn...i cant seem to get my nervous system working." i think you are mistaking intensity in one all out set for the "nervous system being taxed". its intense yes, the nervous system gets a beating, the muscles get a beating. atrophy? that wont set in for quite some time. i highly doubt even with this "minor use" that you infer that muscles get from a highly neural workout, that muscles will atrophy.

dont settle for the dogmatic belief that you need more volume to grow. weight training is the stimulus for growth. workload may increase as someone becomes more conditioned, and thats where you periodize your training, emphasize other facets, (balance, strength, proprioception etc) so you continue to make gains in your ultimate goal: hypertrophy.

Well I am tired of arguing. If your nervous system wasnt taxed than you could lift the same amount of weight each day. Do you really think that you can recover yourself from a bruatl workout?

Dorian Yates (very dedicated bber) COULDNT recover very quickly after his 1 set to failure. Why? His muscles were recovered, his mind wasnt. With his drugs and his dosages his muscles were probab;ly ready to go the next hour. ok not the next, but couple down the line. Ok few days.////


Unfortunatelly Hoebbin reflex was takin in effect and his muscles were capable of less and less work!

 

[SSAlexSS]

That is fine in theory, but the body has a finite ability to continually add weight at every workout. Attempting to add weight to the bar, 2 or more times a week, is going to result in your body plateauing very quickly, that is unless you are not training with maximum intensity.
In say 8 weeks, training with only natural supplements, can you add 40lbs to your bench, and 80lbs or so to both your deads and squats. Before I decided to try anabolics, I was able to do that using just creatine and protein, evertime I aimed for it. Can you, using your "2x per week/adding weight every time" philosophy, add more weight that that in that span of time. If you say you can SSAlexSS, then you are either a beginner (they progress very quickly), or are full of crap.

Where did I say that you can add weight infinite? All I said is TRY to do that.

Another note. Your body cannot feel the difference betweeen 100 and 101 pound weight. By adding 1 pound you can progress without feeling the difference! Until you
hit your final plateau. Hey it is cool to lift 500 pounds. You can add 5 pounds each owrkout and dont feel a difference. 50 weeks per year = 250 pounds on your squat/dead/of whatever move allows you to move 500 pounds...

By training 2x a week correctly you could add 500 pounds in a year for squat/dead (you would plateau TOTALLY and basicly all your power training is now finished. Time to start working on your weak points.)

BTW, I am not a newbie. I have been training correctly for more than 2 month.

 

[SSAlexSS]

That is fine in theory, but the body has a finite ability to continually add weight at every workout. Attempting to add weight to the bar, 2 or more times a week, is going to result in your body plateauing very quickly, that is unless you are not training with maximum intensity.
In say 8 weeks, training with only natural supplements, can you add 40lbs to your bench, and 80lbs or so to both your deads and squats. Before I decided to try anabolics, I was able to do that using just creatine and protein, evertime I aimed for it. Can you, using your "2x per week/adding weight every time" philosophy, add more weight that that in that span of time. If you say you can SSAlexSS, then you are either a beginner (they progress very quickly), or are full of crap.

needsize I understand you trying to learn. me too!

I have added 60 pounds to my squat in matter of weeks.
(I could squat 275 for 1.. SOmteimes I couldnt even do that)
Now I squatted 335 for 3 reps. Not super yes. I blow. But when you squat is stuck for bunch of month... even measly 60 pounds kick !!!!

FEW reps to my chin up strenth.
And I am deadlifting 100+ more pounds now.

Again dont laugfh at my measly poundages, howeever it is all about progress!

 

[Arioch]

Alex, why does one set stress your nervous system more than three?

How can your body not feel the difference between a 100 and a 101 pound weight? It can feel difference much smaller than this. Where do you get this? And I would like a specific reference.

You are right, at two months of training you are not a newbie, you are a virgin.

 

[needsize]

SSAlexSS, first thing I want ot say is that I'm not bashing you, that's not why I come to this board. But you said that you've been training correctly for 2 months, most people haven't figured out exactly how their body responds to training or what makes it grow the best, after 2 years of training. I have been training for over 10, and all but the last 6 months completely natural, and I have defintitely learned a lot about my body in that time. And one thing that I do know, is that with the amount of intensity I put into each workout, there is no way I could train each muscle 2x per week for any period of more than a week or 2, without completely overtraining. And at the level that my strength is at, there is absolutely no need to try to add weight more than 1x per week, and I'm risking the health of what I've built by trying to do so.

 

[SSAlexSS]

Alex, why does one set stress your nervous system more than three?

How can your body not feel the difference between a 100 and a 101 pound weight? It can feel difference much smaller than this. Where do you get this? And I would like a specific reference.

You are right, at two months of training you are not a newbie, you are a virgin.

Take a piece of paper. Put a feather on it. Will you feel a difference? No! You do not perceive very tiny difference.

Your eyes cant for example see the difference between x color 1 and x color 2. The difference is to small to notice. You also dont seem much imprivment in your body while others may see a huge difference if they havent seen you in a while. Reason is that you see yourself in mirror in each day and obviously you dont gain 1 pound of muscle each day, you gain in small amounts and you get used to that.

I cant give a specific reference sine this is what I have heard from some reliable sources. I think it was Stuart Mcrobert or some good HIT writer.

About two month thing. I never claim to be an expert, 6the more I learn the more I realise that there is more to learn.

 

[SSAlexSS]

SSAlexSS, first thing I want ot say is that I'm not bashing you, that's not why I come to this board. But you said that you've been training correctly for 2 months, most people haven't figured out exactly how their body responds to training or what makes it grow the best, after 2 years of training. I have been training for over 10, and all but the last 6 months completely natural, and I have defintitely learned a lot about my body in that time. And one thing that I do know, is that with the amount of intensity I put into each workout, there is no way I could train each muscle 2x per week for any period of more than a week or 2, without completely overtraining. And at the level that my strength is at, there is absolutely no need to try to add weight more than 1x per week, and I'm risking the health of what I've built by trying to do so.

Well that is where our training differs. My training is not intense in Blood and Guts fashion. I love blood and guts type of training, I got craving for it ... ANd I fantasize myself beating Dorian Yates in intenisty (try heavy 20 rep squats).

But right now I am trying to pile as much plates as possible. Its not pretty not to failure, and it SEEMS to be good.

Ofcourse if you train dorian yates like intensity, you cant workout 2x a week and make good gains...

Well I can say that i am not training too bad for gains, howeever ofcourse I am not 100% correct (none are)...
'
Well this is why I visit bb boards. TO LEARN! and sometimes to post stupid stuff and get flamed. HAHAHAHHAHA

 

[Arioch]

Quote:


Take a piece of paper. Put a feather on it. Will you feel a difference? No! You do not perceive very tiny difference.

Perhaps not conciously, but various other senses, including the SSNS will, as I must balance the extra weight, however minute.

Your eyes cant for example see the difference between x color 1 and x color 2. The difference is to small to notice. You also dont seem much imprivment in your body while others may see a huge difference if they havent seen you in a while. Reason is that you see yourself in mirror in each day and obviously you dont gain 1 pound of muscle each day, you gain in small amounts and you get used to that.

I do not go by the mirror. If my total improves, then I have obviously gotten stronger. Please provide some solid references instead of non-applicable anologies.

 

[SSAlexSS]

Alex, why does one set stress your nervous system more than three?

How can your body not feel the difference between a 100 and a 101 pound weight? It can feel difference much smaller than this. Where do you get this? And I would like a specific reference.

You are right, at two months of training you are not a newbie, you are a virgin.

When you goto 1 set to failure you are really depleting your muscle and your CNS. A motor would brake if he tried that. These 2 forced reps can make your muscle look like Afghanistan after US is done there!!!! hahahahhaha

When you do three non failure reps you are always leaving gas in the tank. Ofcourse you have to make up foir that and do few more sets.

 

[Arioch]

Alex, it is not the number of sets that has the greatest effect on your central nervous system, it is the intensity (% of 1rm). This has been extensively detailed.

See the following:

Science and Practice of Strength Training, Zatsiorsky

Supertraining, Siff and Verkoshasky

Anything from Sportivny press (Six different publications come to mind).