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Someon please EXPLAIN this Dubai crap to me
- Thread starter samoth
- Start date
Wqxi
Basically, what's going on over there? Why's it affecting the US and other international markets? I don't get how their overleveraging is tied to us.
chris302001
Banned
I wonder if there is a post like this one on a chinese forum back in 01
mrplunkey
New member
Basically, what's going on over there? Why's it affecting the US and other international markets? I don't get how their overleveraging is tied to us.
Their failure to refinance is triggering fears that global credit markets aren't easing like six of the seven media outlets keep telling us they are.
Okay, I got that they build enough crap in their 1.5M city to support 6M people, there's some fantastic malls and islands that can never be paid for, they're 85% expat, they have no oil, and they've been likened to FNM/FRE/AIG in their expectations of being bailed out and existing on speculation.
How does their failure affect us? Are we bailing them out, too?
mrplunkey
New member
Okay, I got that they build enough crap in their 1.5M city to support 6M people, there's some fantastic malls and islands that can never be paid for, they're 85% expat, they have no oil, and they've been likened to FNM/FRE/AIG in their expectations of being bailed out and existing on speculation.
How does their failure affect us? Are we bailing them out, too?
I don't think it's an issue of being bailed out.
Consider this: At some point, the project looked like a good credit risk. Now, people are bailing like crazy. It's really impossible to say how much of it are people doing the math and how much of it is the global credit crunch.
A state owned company (that makes up like more than 50% of Dubais investments) said they wont be able to pay theyre interest...basically they are defaulting on their debt.
Asian and London have big stakes in Dubai. Basically, nobody wants an $80 billion sized country defaulting on its debt right at this moment.
Abu Dhabi will probably bail them out though.
Asian and London have big stakes in Dubai. Basically, nobody wants an $80 billion sized country defaulting on its debt right at this moment.
Abu Dhabi will probably bail them out though.
Did these countries actually think they were a good investment? I got the impression that Dubai was being ridiculously decadent... so much so that the world didn't actually take them seriously.
Wow.
Did these countries actually think they were a good investment? I got the impression that Dubai was being ridiculously decadent... so much so that the world didn't actually take them seriously.
Wow.
6 years ago anyone could get financing. Especially if youre part of a country that sits on top of most of the remaining oil in the world.
I just read that Dubai has no oil. What if Abu Dhabi cuts their losses and tells them to piss off?
Dubai is bankrupt
house of cards alert!!!!
Abu has bailed them out before, they probably will again.I just read that Dubai has no oil. What if Abu Dhabi cuts their losses and tells them to piss off?
So's most of the developing world. This one seems to matter, though.
To be fair, I'd love to see the Dubai mall. This scene looks like it was taken from the mall in Arnold's Sixth Day movie: http://www.glasssteelandstone.com/Images/UAE/Dubai/DubaiMall-a01.jpg
So's most of the developing world. This one seems to matter, though.
To be fair, I'd love to see the Dubai mall. This scene looks like it was taken from the mall in Arnold's Sixth Day movie: http://www.glasssteelandstone.com/Images/UAE/Dubai/DubaiMall-a01.jpg
Sharks!!!
omg, let's go!
chris302001
Banned
Crap, that's why US financiers are taking a hit today.
titcr
Citibank is extremely bankrupt
mrplunkey
New member
They (and a bunch of other US banks) should be, but we'll keep bailing them out.
Any banker with an IQ over 80 should glean two things from the last year and a half.
1) Bigger isn't just better, bigger is too big to fail. Merge, merge merge -- then merge some more.
2) Big risks equal big bucks and taxpayers cover the downside. Swing away on every pitch -- you'll either hit a home run on your own or the government will hand you a base on balls.
We've dropped a few trillion to reinforce this behavior. Surely it will stick.
bakemeacookie
New member
Dubai's and Saudi's problem isn't money -- it's the fact that htye have a LARGE angry underclass that's ticked off at watching the royals have palaces and mansions - while theyu live in poverty, have no freedoms and can't go anywhere.
The royals so far have use hardline measures to keep citizens under wraps - while encouraging them to hate the us and blame them for thier misfortunes (ahem bin laden ahem) -- but this can only go on for so long. People there are starting to figure out that the oil belongs to eveyrone - and they're getting scammed by these rich fat dictators. Fear of a revolution like in Iran is not outside possibilty within the next 50 years there. The us is trying real hard to help the royals stay in power. Including allowing them a 9/11 over here every once inawhile - as long as the arab anger stays away from the royals.
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The royals so far have use hardline measures to keep citizens under wraps - while encouraging them to hate the us and blame them for thier misfortunes (ahem bin laden ahem) -- but this can only go on for so long. People there are starting to figure out that the oil belongs to eveyrone - and they're getting scammed by these rich fat dictators. Fear of a revolution like in Iran is not outside possibilty within the next 50 years there. The us is trying real hard to help the royals stay in power. Including allowing them a 9/11 over here every once inawhile - as long as the arab anger stays away from the royals.
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Actually in this instance it is.
bakemeacookie
New member
Having investments in us dollars is important - you don't want billions to be lost over night if a currency falls.
However; some of these AP journalist articles are total hogwash. I doubt the authors have even been to Dubai. $22 billion?? That's chicken feed - one of their skyscarpers cost more than that. US Auto companies get more than that. Wall ST Bankers get way more than that from the federal budget. $22 billion isn't goign to take down the world economy lol!
But do they have a "moeny problem" like average americans? Are they in danger of losing everything and having to get day jobs and washing dishes. Far from it. They still have enohyugh money to buy every american into slavery.
remember these are the same journalists that told you to "buy houses now!" and "dot-coms are a great investment!"
c
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high risk = high return but there are many others factors that can come into play like inflation and economic turmoil you cant keep printing money dude
The War on Iraq was a mistake and the entire economy suffered because of it
mrplunkey
New member
That's part of the problem. There will always be upside, and the government has virtually insured the largest banks against downside. So obviously they need to swing for the wall -- they should be in the process of betting the farm again even as we speak.
And apparently our government believes it can print money indefinitely. They're fighting for the largest energy tax increase ever and the largest entitlement since Medicare in the face of the largest deficit in history. It makes zero sense, unless you already know our currency is going to crash and you want to go down with a bang.
And sure, the Iraq war was an economic drain -- but in monetary terms it's a small piece of much larger spending turd.
I'm still trying to comprehend your delightful optimistic look at this lol
The entire world order as we speak of it is in turmoil because the US economy is down....investments, stocks, bonds, monetary value of a shitload of currencies, north american investments, institutions like the world bank, etc...
Everyone looks at Obama and says what has he done?? umm...what can anyone do at this point?
Oh, and this is all a conspiracy, it's meant to happen, the us senate, the department of state, the entire governement want this to happen...it's their way of keeping the population in check and in control....like all the other ways to control people: welfare, taxes, debit, credit, banks, interest, the list goes on....
do you really think when Bush and all the other gov factions involved spent hundreds of billions of dollars a day on a the war in iraq, they were not aware that this will happen....oh no, we spent too much money?? oh no we're bankrupt? lol....i find it funny how people are so naive....so much money was spent on the war in iraq that if you stack hundred dollar bills on top of each other, you could climb to the monn and back 11 times or some odd number like that, or better yet, feed every hungry child, put every kid in school, etc...
so let's see, the real reasons the us invaded iraq was to:
1- control the oil in the area
2- control the area through us presense in a country other than saudia arabia, i.e. having more say in world oil prices and other importance monetary shit
3- to continue to involve themselves in political stances that they know / need to know nothing about because they are not involved nor are they the center of the world.....
4- no iraq has no super weapons or nuclear ability...they have a few scientists and maybe a few rockets from russia...why doesnt the states invade russia?? the cold war lasted long enough....
Oh and did we forget to mention that Bush was smart enough to attack Iraq and afghanistan virtually at the same time??
why was that a mistake on both accounts?? well, because similarily to when the usa attacked Nam, with all due respect to all veterans, these are all wars that cannot be won because you are fighting an enemy that cannot be seen, is not willing to stop, they will come at you even if your shooting at them with stones and pitch forks because you are attacking their land....and not to forget, some of them are fanaticals muslims with pee sized brains who think killing as many people as they can by virtue of them being "infidels" is the way to go...
Here's a little history for you on saddam Hussein:
when iraq invaded iran, Iran pretty much burned a large part of the land that separated the armies and hussein couldnt march on. Do you know what saddam hussein did. He ordered some of his army to jump into the fire to make a human bridge, on the burning fire, for the rest of the army to march on and conquer their enemy. They did it without hesitation because people like that are in a mind set much different than north american armies, not to say they are correct morally or socially, but when you are fighitng someone who would rather give up their life fighitng for a handful of sand to make sure his land and women aren't raped, then you're fighting a lot more than a man with a pitchfork.
The USA should really reconsider before involving themselves into other peoples' business because everytime it does, shit hits the roof and both parties lose....I think Obama has teh right idea.
mrplunkey
New member
There are two issues here.
1) By eliminating downside for bankers, we've created a moral hazard that virtually guarantees they'll take huge chances going forward.
2) Iraq and Afghanistan have been a big drain on the economy, but Barry's 2009 DEFICIT (one-year overrun) will be significantly larger (around 50%) than the entire cost of Iraq and Afghanistan. To give you another example, the first TARP budget was about the same cost of both wars -- and that was a one-year spend. It's still real money, but it's far from the only source of our economic woes.
And the reason we invaded Iraq is because we took a calculated risk at nation-building. We thought we could clean-up a dictatorial mess and install a democracy in the heart of the middle east. Our experience proved that it's doable, but it costs far more lives, cash and time than we ever anticipated.
All developed nations had a part in this. After 2000, the majority of the world banks lowered their interest rates to retarded levels and encouraged folks to purchase real estate. Countries like Spain and Iceland were hit worse than we were. This was a worldwide phenomenon that you cant simply place at the doorstep of Wall St.
The only thing he can do is inspire confidence in America and the dollar. Unfortunately he hasnt done either.
This problem wasnt caused by the government spending money on an unnecessary war. Sure it ran up the debt, but were talking about two different things here.
By the way, the deficit was actually decreasing during Bush's last two years in office.
mrplunkey
New member
That's a good chart.
The Clinton decrease is a little deceptive though, since he presided over the $5T dot-bomb meltdown where we were all Internet billionaires on paper.
i'm curious as to what you think obama can do to inspire??
also, i disagree with whatever chart shows bush's deficit decreased the last two years...it's marketing hype opium for the masses
pls tell me you dont believe the whole nation building crap...it's like saying the american dream is owning a white picket fenched house with a big backyard and a fuzzy looking dog and having a white blonde family who are too close for comfort....
dude, it's all about monetary value and amassing as much money as possible for certain people in the gov. always has been...
mrplunkey
New member
Of course it was nation-building. Nation building is the US's way of saying: "Screw you world, we're the last superpower so we're going to replace an unfriendly dictatorship with a friendly democracy." It's an incredibly arrogant move and it cost us far more time, money and lives than we had ever anticipated. If we had succeeded, there would be an entire generation of nutjobs in Iran, Syria and Libya trying to step correct right now but as is, we may have empowered them to act even crazier. All government action carries unintended consequences and this one turned-out to be a particularly bad variety.
And sure people in Washington are all about amassing power and money -- that's human nature. But there are far better ways to get rich than war. The financial crisis should have taught everyone who pulls the strings in DC, and it isn't the military-industrial guys. We'll let military contractors meltdown or merge anytime, but as soon as the financial industry gets rattled, we'll shower them with trillions. Goldman Sachs will make more off cap-and-trade than any military contractor possibly could.
chris302001
Banned
For starters, not set new deficit records every other day. He needs to inspire confidence in the US dollar and our economic strength.
Hate to break it to you, but facts are facts. Just because it doesnt support your argument doesnt make it untrue...especially when the numbers are compiled by the objective watchdog organization who's sole purpose is to compile these numbers.
mrplunkey
New member
wtf asshole, thats exactly what I want!
I started to comment on that too... but I figured that would be best left alone. He may have missed the "American Dream" chapter in his Social Studies class.
