Some Questions Regarding 5x5 & GVT!

[Vanchatron]

SORRY FOR THE LONG THREAD, BUT ANY HELP IS GREATLY APPRECIATED!​

I'm 21 years old & have been bodybuilding now for around 6 years. A few months ago I came across the Bill Starr 5x5 workout program, which is shown in the following link - Bill Starr - Glenn Pendlay 5x5 - Periodized Version, Dual Factor Theory

I found this program to be amazing in Strength/Size increases. I then came across another link, which explains what to do AFTER the 5x5 program. He says that after the 5x5, you should do a cycle of EDT (Escalating Density Training) or GVT (10x10 German Volume Training) in order to break out of the high weight training & shock your body into producing more muscle, by incorporating more volume.


I won't ask you to read through the WHOLE thread I'm linking but I'd greatly appreciate it if you could at least read through the specific POST I link to, as that's generally what I'm asking about in this thread. And who knows, you may learn something!


The Original Thread - Eclipse Gym :: View topic - Bill Starr 5x5 Primer - How to create your own 5x5 program

The Specific Post I Need Help Understanding - Eclipse Gym :: View topic - Bill Starr 5x5 Primer - How to create your own 5x5 program


As far as I know, he's basically saying carry on with the 5x5 method of training which is SQUATS/BENCH/ROW on Mondays & Fridays and SQUATS/DEADS/MILITARY PRESS/PULLUPS on Wednesdays, BUT this time you do 10x10 instead of 5x5. I've added a picture in, to show what a typical 5x5 program looks like.


Picture - http://img02.picoodle.com/img/img02/3/10/16/f_Madcow5x5m_10bdb3b.jpg


Am I right then in thinking that he means use the above program, but just do 10x10 instead of 5x5? If so, I have a few questions:

- Surely doing the Bill Starr routine but using 10x10 instead of 5x5, would cause overtraining & be counter-productive to gains wouldn't it? I mean, I thought that with high volume routines such as GVT, you needed extra rest due to the very fact it is HIGH VOLUME, but the Bill Starr routine has you training the same muscle group/exercises 2-3 times a week. What do you make of this?

- In the original Bill Starr 5x5 article shown in the very first link, he says to NEVER substitute the exercises for other variations (e.g. Back Squats for Front Squats) because the exercises chosen are THE BEST for what you are trying to achieve. OK, well this may be true, but what happens when you stop growing or making progress on an exercise, because your body has become adapted to it? Surely I can't be squatting 3 times a week in BOTH routines (5x5 & 10x10) and carry on making progress. For this reason, would it not be a good idea to perhaps do Back Squats for the 5x5 routine, and Front Squats for the 10x10 routine so that I don't get accustomed to a specific exercise? I guess this also goes for the other exercises used in the 5x5 which are Bench/Row/Deadlift/Military Press. Would it be a good idea to also switch THEM up for something like DB Bench/DB Row/Rack Deads/DB Military Press? I'm just a little concerned that I'll plateau on a particular exercise because I'll be doing it for so long without any change, but I'm also concerned about actually substituting the exercise for something else, because like I said, in the Bill Starr article about 5x5 above, he says that bodybuilders have a ridiculoud tendency to want to CHANGE everything, and that's one of the reasons people don't make progress.

- In the post I linked to above (the one saying you should do something like EDT or GVT after 5x5), it says something about doing 10x6 (6 sets of 10 reps), although it doesn't say HOW you should implement this, unless I've missed something. Here's what it says:

"Basically it was a program designed many years ago for weightlifters who wished to move up a weight class. It is very brutal in nature and requires a great deal of focus while doing the training. The basic German Volume Training is known as the "10x10" or where you'll do 10 sets of 10 reps of 60% of your 1 rep maximum per exercise, with an arbitrary, but fixed, rest period in-between sets. As you progress, you'll later do a "6x10" or 10 sets of 6 reps with 70% of your 1 rep maximum with a similar rest period."

^^ OK fair enough, but WHEN do I use this method?


Anyway, I don't want to make a long post any longer, so for now that's all the questions I have. As stated above, any help is greatly appreciated & hopefully somebody has the time to give me a hand with all this.

Thanks a lot!

 

[al420]

10x10 is WAY to much volume. I think a great bridge between 5x5's is to train in the same rep total but to mix it up a bit. So instead of 5x5 (25 reps) do 3x8 (24), or even 3x10 (30).

I personally do not count my warn ups sets while doing higher rep work, but 3 work sets of 8 reps is a lot of volume. Especailly if you are squatting 3x a week. I would do Back Squats on Mondays, fronts or zerchers or even overhead squats on Wed, and then back again on Friday.

 

[SaiBoT]

On GVT you would be doing 10x10 on one exercise per bodypart not the same bodypart three times a week...

 

[lockdownd7]

I'm not familiar with GVT, however, from the post you linked to, it is outlined as:

Mon - 10x10 bench, squat, row
Wed - 10x10 deadlifts, military, pullups
Fri - 6x10 bench, squat, row (with 90 second rest intervals)


Regarding volume and overtraining, understand that intensity plays a huge factor. You could easily do bodyweight squats for 10x10 everday without overtraining. Note that the recommendations for GVT include "NOT going to failure or severe struggle" and to "always save something for the last 1-2 sets". As long as you're sensible with it, I think it can be managed just fine.

Regarding changing the exercises, realize that it is not necessary to change exercises to achieve a compeletely different training stimulus. Clearly, if you do sets of 50 back squats, the effect is going to be much different than doing sets of 3. Now I don't know what you specifically define as "progress" (i.e. what you're trying to progress to), but you can most certainly continue progressing without changing exercises. Also realize that even a simple deload can often help you progress a stalled exercise.

 

[SaiBoT]

I'm not familiar with GVT, however, from the post you linked to, it is outlined as:

Mon - 10x10 bench, squat, row
Wed - 10x10 deadlifts, military, pullups
Fri - 6x10 bench, squat, row (with 90 second rest intervals)


Regarding volume and overtraining, understand that intensity plays a huge factor. You could easily do bodyweight squats for 10x10 everday without overtraining. Note that the recommendations for GVT include "NOT going to failure or severe struggle" and to "always save something for the last 1-2 sets". As long as you're sensible with it, I think it can be managed just fine.

Regarding changing the exercises, realize that it is not necessary to change exercises to achieve a compeletely different training stimulus. Clearly, if you do sets of 50 back squats, the effect is going to be much different than doing sets of 3. Now I don't know what you specifically define as "progress" (i.e. what you're trying to progress to), but you can most certainly continue progressing without changing exercises. Also realize that even a simple deload can often help you progress a stalled exercise.

Check this link it has everything you need to know about GVT any other link is most likely to be bullshit... Bodybuilding.com - Charles Poliquin - German Volume Training!

 

[Vanchatron]

So what was said in the link I posted at the start is bullshit? I mean, he seems like a pretty knowledgeable coach & I've learned quite a few things from that guy, so I'm not sure what to believe now.

5x5 teaches you that 99% of the time, isolation exercises are bullshit for mass & you need to stick with compounds as these are the exercises that will get you big shoulders/arms, NOT curls & delt raises etc. But GVT uses quite a lot of isolations. In the link you posted above, the Arms/Shoulders day doesn't have a single compound exercise in.

 

[SaiBoT]

So what was said in the link I posted at the start is bullshit? I mean, he seems like a pretty knowledgeable coach & I've learned quite a few things from that guy, so I'm not sure what to believe now.

5x5 teaches you that 99% of the time, isolation exercises are bullshit for mass & you need to stick with compounds as these are the exercises that will get you big shoulders/arms, NOT curls & delt raises etc. But GVT uses quite a lot of isolations. In the link you posted above, the Arms/Shoulders day doesn't have a single compound exercise in.

Dips is a compound exercise that works chest shoulders and triceps that's why he didn't suggested another press movement to shoulders, it would like beating a dead horse. You honestly think that you could do any pressing movement efficiently after having done 10x10 of dips?

Anyway you can start the fourth day with shoulders then arms like this

10x10 military press
3x10-12 triceps extensions
10x10 inclined hammer
3x10-12bent over lateral raises

You have a lot of coumpounds on the 5x5 and three times a week, afraid of losing strength? You won't lose!

 

[Vanchatron]

So now people have read the post I linked to above (I'm hoping), can you confirm that he WAS suggesting to do the Bill Starr 5x5 but instead do 10x10? If he was (and you all seem to think it's overtraining), that basically means that what he's saying is bullshit, and I thought he was a pretty knowledgeable guy

I'm not even sure he WAS suggesting to take the Bill Starr 5x5 methods (shown in the picture I linked to) and switch to 10x10, which is why I wanted to make sure here, as the way he was talking about it didn't really make sense.

 

[lockdownd7]

So now people have read the post I linked to above (I'm hoping), can you confirm that he WAS suggesting to do the Bill Starr 5x5 but instead do 10x10? If he was (and you all seem to think it's overtraining), that basically means that what he's saying is bullshit, and I thought he was a pretty knowledgeable guy

I'm not even sure he WAS suggesting to take the Bill Starr 5x5 methods (shown in the picture I linked to) and switch to 10x10, which is why I wanted to make sure here, as the way he was talking about it didn't really make sense.

I didn't interpret it that way at all. Read my previous post in this thread. Overtraining requires a certain degree of intensity. If intensity is managed properly, it'd be fine.

 

[Vanchatron]

I didn't interpret it that way at all. Read my previous post in this thread. Overtraining requires a certain degree of intensity. If intensity is managed properly, it'd be fine.

Sorry I must have missed your post, but I've just read it, thanks. You said 6x10 and it also mentions 6x10 in the link, but he then goes on to say "10 sets of 6 reps"... So it's actually 10x6 isn't it?

Also, any idea why only Friday would have this change & why 10x6 as opposed to anything else? You probably can't answer those questions as you didn't make that post, but maybe you can help me understand a little better, as you seem to know more about it than me.

Thanks again.

 

[lockdownd7]

Sorry I must have missed your post, but I've just read it, thanks. You said 6x10 and it also mentions 6x10 in the link, but he then goes on to say "10 sets of 6 reps"... So it's actually 10x6 isn't it?

Also, any idea why only Friday would have this change & why 10x6 as opposed to anything else? You probably can't answer those questions as you didn't make that post, but maybe you can help me understand a little better, as you seem to know more about it than me.

Thanks again.

Actually, when he's talking about the 10 sets of 6 reps, he's talking about possible splits to use after the 10x10. Notice it says "As you progress, you'll later do a "6x10" or 10 sets of 6 reps with 70% of your 1 rep maximum with a similar rest period." - "as you progress", meaning, progress past the 10x10. The reason for making a change like this after the 10x10 would just be that typically the more advanced you get, the better you respond to fewer reps.

Then later it goes on to say "On Friday, for example, instead of doing 10x10, you'll do 6x10 with a 90 second rest interval. This time you'll wave down to 4 reps as your lower limit." So, 6 sets of 10 reps. At least that's how I'd interpret it. Really kind of a poor way to describe a split, but the author does seem to be coming from a relatively sound, intelligent perspective.

 

[SaiBoT]

So now people have read the post I linked to above (I'm hoping), can you confirm that he WAS suggesting to do the Bill Starr 5x5 but instead do 10x10? If he was (and you all seem to think it's overtraining), that basically means that what he's saying is bullshit, and I thought he was a pretty knowledgeable guy

I'm not even sure he WAS suggesting to take the Bill Starr 5x5 methods (shown in the picture I linked to) and switch to 10x10, which is why I wanted to make sure here, as the way he was talking about it didn't really make sense.

He made real nice suggestions about the 5x5 but about the GVT 10x10 he went way over is head... You would be doing, through his perspective, 300 reps at 60% of RM all in the same workout... Do you honestly think that by the time you hit the set number 3 or 4 your legs wouldn't be busted to allow you to do rows with perfect form for 6 more sets??? Even if you were on cycle the way he suggests to do GVT is absurd!

You know what? Give it a try for a week or two the way "Mr Eclipse" suggests and see for yourself...