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Soldiers Want a Bigger Bang

javaguru

Banned
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003515.html

Nearly 80 percent of Soldiers said in a recent survey they are satisfied with their weapons, though almost half recommended a replacement for the standard-issued M9 pistol or ammunition with more stopping power.

Additionally, nearly 30 percent of Soldiers in the December 2006 survey, conducted on behalf of the Army by the Center for Naval Analyses, said the M4 carbine should be replaced or more deadly ammunition fielded.

"Across weapons, Soldiers have requested weapons and ammunition with more stopping power/lethality," the report said.

The study was commissioned by the Army's Project Manager for Soldier Weapons to address concerns raised by Soldiers returning from combat about the dependability and effectiveness of their small arms.

Download the entire CNA report here (2MB pdf).

"This study assessed Soldier perspectives on the reliability and durability of their weapons systems in combat to aid in decisions regarding current and future small arms needs of the Army," said the study, which was obtained by Military.com.

CNA surveyors conducted over 2,600 interviews with Soldiers returning from combat duty, asking them a variety of questions about accessories, weapons training, maintenance and recommended changes to their small arms.

"The U.S. Army Infantry Center is conducting a study to refine the Army's Small Arms Strategy, which focuses on the employment of rifles, carbines, ammunition caliber, and future technologies," said Army spokesman, Lt. Col. William Wiggins, in a statement. "All Services are participating in this study, which is expected in the July/August 2007 timeframe."

The survey lends weight to Army claims that current-issued weapons are effective despite growing criticism from Soldiers and lawmakers on Capitol Hill that the service should re-assess the standard M4 - as well as the M9 pistol.

In April, Sen. Tom Coburn (R-Okla.) sent a letter to acting Army secretary Pete Geren taking issue with the service's sole-source contract to buy about 500,000 M4 carbines despite evidence that new rifle technologies could provide more reliable weapons.

The study found the most stoppage problems with the M249 machine gun and M9 pistol, with an average of about 30 percent of respondents saying they experienced stoppages with each weapon in firefights. About four in ten Soldiers who said they experienced jams during combat with their pistols or machine guns claimed it took them out of the fight.

Though vocal critics of the M4 say it's prone to jamming in the talcum-like sand environments of Iraq and Afghanistan, only 19 percent of M4 users said they experienced stoppages in combat.

But of those with malfunctioning M4s, nearly 20 percent said they were "unable to engage the target with that weapon during a significant portion of or the entire firefight after performing immediate or remedial action to clear the stoppage," the report said.

Soldiers who attach accessories to their weapons experienced a disproportionate number of malfunctions, with M249 users nine times more likely to experience a stoppage "if accessories were attached via zip cord, four times more likely if attached with duct tape and three times more likely if attached with dummy cords or rails."

"Accessory attachments had a significant impact on reported stoppages," the report said. "Those who attached accessories to their weapon were more likely to experience stoppages, regardless of how the accessories were attached."

The CNA surveyors also asked Soldiers for their opinions on possible improvements to their small arms. The top request from Soldiers was for more knock-down power, reigniting the debate over America's small arms caliber choices.

"When speaking to experts and Soldiers on site, many commented on the limited ability to effectively stop targets, saying that those personnel targets who were shot multiple times were still able to continue pursuit," the report said.

A full 20 percent of M9 users said they wanted a new weapon, and "some were more specific and requested a return to the Colt .45 for standard issue pistols," including others who asked for hollow-point ammo.

Hollow point rounds have been deemed illegal for military use.

Additionally, M16 users were "consistent and adamant" in asking to be re-issued the more compact M4.
 
These figures would mean more if you knew what units were being interviewed. Training, and job description makes a difference. An 11B with two tours and a Ranger tab will be a lot more likely to keep his weapon well maintained than a guy that spent his whole tour flippin' eggs and bacon in the DEFAC. Weapon maintenance is paramount to weapon functionality. That and whether or not the unit is being issued worn out gear. Some guard units just don't get the newest and shiniest stuff. A worn out M4 with 30000 rounds through the barrel and its original buffer spring can't be expected to run as well as one that just rolled off the Colt assembly line.

I don't put much faith in surveys like these.
 
Nothing wrong with the M4 but they need to go back to the 1911 in .45.

A 9mm is for wanna be thugs and gangbangers. Freakin cap gun has no place in battle.

Does the Military even issue ++p ammo for handguns?

I know the marines ordered a few thousand Kimber 1911's.
 
:whatever:

whatever they want to use. It's their asses on the line.
 
JarheadChiro said:
These figures would mean more if you knew what units were being interviewed. Training, and job description makes a difference. An 11B with two tours and a Ranger tab will be a lot more likely to keep his weapon well maintained than a guy that spent his whole tour flippin' eggs and bacon in the DEFAC. Weapon maintenance is paramount to weapon functionality. That and whether or not the unit is being issued worn out gear. Some guard units just don't get the newest and shiniest stuff. A worn out M4 with 30000 rounds through the barrel and its original buffer spring can't be expected to run as well as one that just rolled off the Colt assembly line.

I don't put much faith in surveys like these.
They did.
"The study found the most stoppage problems with the M249 machine gun and M9 pistol, with an average of about 30 percent of respondents saying they experienced stoppages with each weapon in firefights. About four in ten Soldiers who said they experienced jams during combat with their pistols or machine guns claimed it took them out of the fight."

"Soldiers who attach accessories to their weapons experienced a disproportionate number of malfunctions, with M249 users nine times more likely to experience a stoppage "if accessories were attached via zip cord, four times more likely if attached with duct tape and three times more likely if attached with dummy cords or rails."
 
javaguru said:
They did.
"The study found the most stoppage problems with the M249 machine gun and M9 pistol, with an average of about 30 percent of respondents saying they experienced stoppages with each weapon in firefights. About four in ten Soldiers who said they experienced jams during combat with their pistols or machine guns claimed it took them out of the fight."

"Soldiers who attach accessories to their weapons experienced a disproportionate number of malfunctions, with M249 users nine times more likely to experience a stoppage "if accessories were attached via zip cord, four times more likely if attached with duct tape and three times more likely if attached with dummy cords or rails."


Huh?
 
The primary complaints seem to come from people using the M249 and the M9. Using the 5.56mm NATO cartridge has been a debate since the M16 was introduced. Notice that respondents, presumably guard units, wished they had an M4 over an M16.
 
superdave said:
The Baretta 9mm is for shit, the military needs to go back to the .45
A full 20 percent of M9 users said they wanted a new weapon, and "some were more specific and requested a return to the Colt .45 for standard issue pistols," including others who asked for hollow-point ammo.
 
i think its funny that the military doesnt want the kill to be "inhumane" like. we can shoot them 20 times with a 9mm but god forbid we use hollow points and shoot them 1 time for the kill. im sorry but when your at war you shoot to kill. in law enforcement we are taught if we HAVE to discharge our weapon it is to kill not injure. we would get in a heap of shit if we hit them in the leg or arm to wound them rather than shoot center mass and kill them. sad but true.
 
bigmann245 said:
i think its funny that the military doesnt want the kill to be "inhumane" like. we can shoot them 20 times with a 9mm but god forbid we use hollow points and shoot them 1 time for the kill. im sorry but when your at war you shoot to kill. in law enforcement we are taught if we HAVE to discharge our weapon it is to kill not injure. we would get in a heap of shit if we hit them in the leg or arm to wound them rather than shoot center mass and kill them. sad but true.
"The essence of war is violence, moderation in war is absurd. Hit first, hit hard, and hit anything." Early 20th century or 19th century British military leader.
Be like the Russians in WW2, take no prisoners ... none! As John Rambo says: "When you're pushed, killing is as easy as breathing." Easy for Stallone to say, huh? Still good motivation, inspiration, and attitude adjustment.
 
JarheadChiro said:
They don't get to choose.
I'm saying that if you are going to ask a guy to fight for the country, you might as well let him choose his weapon.
 
JarheadChiro said:
They don't get to choose.
All the way back in WWI my grandfather had the family send him a .45 caliber Colt revolver for use in the trenches, I still have the sidearm as an heirloom. Apparently, any doughboy who could beg, borrow, or steal a sidearm did so. According to grandpa, a sidearm and a satchel of hand grenades was a soldiers best friend when going over the top.
 
stupdi poll

when will soldiers in any war say 'hey i don't need more power. i'm happy'.

it's like askiing teenagers if they'd like more hp in their cars lol
 
when is the military getting the 6.8mm grendel ammo? I'm surprised to hear about the m249's problems.......I have a friend who's ex SEAL and is an instructor somewhere in Utah or Nevada......when he was active he was the heavy gunner.....loved the m249, said it hardly ever stopped.....if it did, it was minor and he could fix it within seconds.
 
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