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These are staples of Flex Wheeler and Chris Cormier in their back routines. Needless to say, their backs are AWESOME!! Has anyone else tried them? If so, have they made a big improvement in your back development???
Smith Machine Deadlifts- Who Does Them?
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Citruscide
Guest
They most likely do them because of the injury that can take place due to high weight lifting and deadlifts. With full range of motion, deadlifts are quite possibly the greatest cause of injury in bodybuilders.
Using the Smith machine will most likely stablize the workout and reduce the chance of injury.
For us amatures... I'd say stick to the free bar, unless you are thinking of doing super heavy weight or are prone to back injury.
C-ditty
Using the Smith machine will most likely stablize the workout and reduce the chance of injury.
For us amatures... I'd say stick to the free bar, unless you are thinking of doing super heavy weight or are prone to back injury.
C-ditty
Citruscide said:
The deadlift itself is not the cause of injury....poor form is. The heavier weights used do increase the "risk", but if you pull properly it will not be an issue. Having a "pretty"(not strong) lower back and abs is the real issue. And not strengthening those stabilizer muscles, by taking them out of the equation with the Smith, is a bad idea..IMO.
Why is it that a majority of bodybuilders are always looking for ways around exercises. They want to modify exercises so that they are safer. Why not just learn to lift correctly?
I can't think of a single good reason to do them on a smith. Lots of "published" routines aren't accurate.
ConstantChange
New member
Funny this topic came up. There is this new gym opening that is 15 miles closer to my house than my current gym, so I stopped by to check it out. He didn't have the equipment in the place yet cause he was doing some drywall work and getting it all ready, so I was asking him some questions about what he was going to have and what he was going to allow. I asked him, "Are you going to allow people to deadlift?" because I've been in gyms that you couldn't. He didn't really answer my question but said "I do a lot of deadlifts too, but I use the smith machine. I got this brand new kick ass smith...it's badass" I was thinking "ooooooooook, deads with a smith....that's a new one"
When I dead, the bar doesn't move in a straight line towards the ceiling....seems like it would be as un-natural to me as doing squats on a smith (which I can't even imagine doing unless it was a must)
To each their own....if it works for you.....use the smith all day long.
When I dead, the bar doesn't move in a straight line towards the ceiling....seems like it would be as un-natural to me as doing squats on a smith (which I can't even imagine doing unless it was a must)
To each their own....if it works for you.....use the smith all day long.
Intenceman
New member
Never tried them. Tried Squats on them once or twice and the just hurt my back as I got lo- curse of the tall man. I only use the smith for pressing to failure. For Squats and deads it's free weights.
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Citruscide
Guest
Hannibal said:
When doing that much weight, in the position your body is, you can have perfect form and lose your balance in the slighest and boom, you have blown out disks.
I hurt my back doing near 400 on squats in 1997... what injured it? The bar got caught on the peg putting the weights back on the rack... causing my balance to shift and throwing out my back fun stuff.
Because of the weight used, the enormous range of motion, and the lack of help a spotter will provide in case of a loss of balance or other accident... deadlifts are the number one cause of back injjry. Sure, bad form on ANY exercise can cause this problem... but deadlifts leave too many holes open... which is why MANY bodybuilders resort to back extensions, barbell rows, or smith machine deadlifts to prevent a bad injury.
C-ditty
C
Citruscide
Guest
Hannibal said:
I've seen the range of motion that both Spatts uses as well as the Project on their deadlifts... and it isn't as great as mine, nor other body builders I know.
Like I said just above, even with PERFECT form, you can lose your balance, especially if you are on a deadlift platform. I had PERFECT form on squats, slow motions, damn near PERFECT... but because I slipped up on putting the weights on the rack, boom, back injury.
Maybe you guys can go through all of your workouts with out the slightest slip up.. I've been working out for 8 almost 9 years... the law of averages catches up to you after a while.
C-ditty
C
Citruscide
Guest
heavywear said:
Again. For bodybuilders where the shape (both physical and form) of their body is key and the necessity of strength isn't as key... Smith Machine deadlifts would offer a possible solution to doing free-form deads. The risk of injury is GREATLY reduced.. .as I discussed above, even with perfect form on free-form, you could slip and hurt yourself terribly due to the high weight and ineffectiveness of a spotter to catch you in case of a slip. With the Smith.. .you could avoid injury on a slip of form very easily.
Sure, you don't get the benefit of stabilizers, but hey, some people aren't in it for the strength of it... they care more about the looks.
With all that being said, I still do free-form deads.
C-ditty
Texas Ranger
New member
Splatts, I seen Flex and Chris on tape do them while being trained by Charles Glass. I think they were doing 3-4 plates on each side, nothing major.
I can see how my sumo range of motion would be different...I use it specifically because it is shorter. For Project, I don't see how floor to lock out ROM is any different. He pulls conventional.
We also have to distinguish a definition of deadlifts apparently. We pull from the floor...DEAD...LIFT. We don't unrack anything. We don't start at the top, lower, lift. We pick up, then drop, reset, pick up again, drop, reset...etc. This can't be done on a "platform." We also have to take into consideration the purpose for the movement. We don't do RLDLs, SLDLs, keystones, etc...those are all variations designed to target certain muscle groups. A deadlift, as the weightlifting world knows it, is picking weight up off the floor and locking it out. Whatever you do to alter that to create hypertrophy is a different move, and shouldn't be considered more/less safe than a true deadlift. It's apples to oranges.
I was deadlifting 225 for 15 with a belt back in January when I felt a series of pops and hit the floor...numb from the chest down. Trainer rushed me to ER. Not PL/OL deadlifts, but pick it up off the floor, and hit the eccentric just about mid/calf deadlifts. I thought I was out of commission. Thankfully, learning AR techniques and switching to PL form helped me rehab this injury faster than I expected. Now I am lifting about 100 pounds more than that for reps, raw, with no problem (conventional and sumo).
Again, powerlifters pull 2-3x that kind of weight all the time with no problem. There's a difference in core strength. A powerlifter trains the core specifically to be able to handle this type of stress. BB's don't. For one, it makes your core THICK, and many BB's find this couterproductive to achieving a solid taper.
Poor form + weak back/core = injury. Like Hannibal said, some backs are pretty, some are strong.
Squats are very dangerous to rack, C, and I'm glad you came through it ok. We are getting a monolift soon for this reason. Again, there's a core training difference with PLers, in that a PLer will train partial valsalvas (walkouts) with bar weight as a Max Effort move for time, and also SEVERAL different variations of good mornigns just to prevent this type of injury. We call it chaos recovery. We always goodmorning the weight out of the rack, and goodmorning it back in. Not only does this allow for chaos recovery at lock out/rerack, but at the bottom. If you lose tightness in the erectors and traps at any point in the squat, you're asking for trouble. If you start to fall forward with 1000 pounds on your back, you better have the erectors to regroup and stabalize.
All moves have the potential to be dangerous, so anything we can do to make our own form/variations safer and more effective for our individual goals, the better.
We also have to distinguish a definition of deadlifts apparently. We pull from the floor...DEAD...LIFT. We don't unrack anything. We don't start at the top, lower, lift. We pick up, then drop, reset, pick up again, drop, reset...etc. This can't be done on a "platform." We also have to take into consideration the purpose for the movement. We don't do RLDLs, SLDLs, keystones, etc...those are all variations designed to target certain muscle groups. A deadlift, as the weightlifting world knows it, is picking weight up off the floor and locking it out. Whatever you do to alter that to create hypertrophy is a different move, and shouldn't be considered more/less safe than a true deadlift. It's apples to oranges.
I was deadlifting 225 for 15 with a belt back in January when I felt a series of pops and hit the floor...numb from the chest down. Trainer rushed me to ER. Not PL/OL deadlifts, but pick it up off the floor, and hit the eccentric just about mid/calf deadlifts. I thought I was out of commission. Thankfully, learning AR techniques and switching to PL form helped me rehab this injury faster than I expected. Now I am lifting about 100 pounds more than that for reps, raw, with no problem (conventional and sumo).
Again, powerlifters pull 2-3x that kind of weight all the time with no problem. There's a difference in core strength. A powerlifter trains the core specifically to be able to handle this type of stress. BB's don't. For one, it makes your core THICK, and many BB's find this couterproductive to achieving a solid taper.
Poor form + weak back/core = injury. Like Hannibal said, some backs are pretty, some are strong.
Squats are very dangerous to rack, C, and I'm glad you came through it ok. We are getting a monolift soon for this reason. Again, there's a core training difference with PLers, in that a PLer will train partial valsalvas (walkouts) with bar weight as a Max Effort move for time, and also SEVERAL different variations of good mornigns just to prevent this type of injury. We call it chaos recovery. We always goodmorning the weight out of the rack, and goodmorning it back in. Not only does this allow for chaos recovery at lock out/rerack, but at the bottom. If you lose tightness in the erectors and traps at any point in the squat, you're asking for trouble. If you start to fall forward with 1000 pounds on your back, you better have the erectors to regroup and stabalize.
All moves have the potential to be dangerous, so anything we can do to make our own form/variations safer and more effective for our individual goals, the better.
Last edited:
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Citruscide
Guest
Spatts
My point is, that the precarious position that deadlifts puts you in + the amount of weight involved = a greater chance of injury. Adding in the fact that a spotter isn't as effective in a deadlift than say, with bench press.
if you're doing 400lbs on bench, and 500 on dead... your spotter can save you on the bench.
I do use a platform on my deads, I feel I get a greater ROM on them... nothing touches the ground however.
Sumo deadlifts are supposed to have the same ROM as regular deads, at least from what I've read and learned in my training... the sole difference is hand placement in the bar... inner grip vs. outer.
Regardless... injury DOES pose itself in any exercise, even dumbbell flies. My entire explination was to explain the bodybuilders use of the smith machine rather than the conventional deadlifts. I've trained with several Mr. Illinois and a Mr. America... many of them will not do standard deadlifts because of the "stigma" of injury that surrounds them.
C-ditty
My point is, that the precarious position that deadlifts puts you in + the amount of weight involved = a greater chance of injury. Adding in the fact that a spotter isn't as effective in a deadlift than say, with bench press.
if you're doing 400lbs on bench, and 500 on dead... your spotter can save you on the bench.
I do use a platform on my deads, I feel I get a greater ROM on them... nothing touches the ground however.
Sumo deadlifts are supposed to have the same ROM as regular deads, at least from what I've read and learned in my training... the sole difference is hand placement in the bar... inner grip vs. outer.
Regardless... injury DOES pose itself in any exercise, even dumbbell flies. My entire explination was to explain the bodybuilders use of the smith machine rather than the conventional deadlifts. I've trained with several Mr. Illinois and a Mr. America... many of them will not do standard deadlifts because of the "stigma" of injury that surrounds them.
C-ditty
If I were a body builder, I do the safest thing possible to reach my goals. 
If the weight doesn't start on the floor, it's a modified deadlift. The deadlift, by definition, means picking up dead weight...off the floor. Hence the name.
Powerlifting is a game of physics, C. It's about moving a weight through the shortest distance from point A to B...a straight line. Many PLers choose sumo because although the ROM is the same by definition (floor to lockout), the stance shortens the stroke. Common sense will tell you that if your feet are wider apart, you have less room between the bar and lockout because your body is closer to the floor. The difference between my sumo pull and my conventional pull is about 6 inches. The ROM is still floor to lockout, but the bar travels less distance. For very short people with really long arms, the floor to lockout distance of a sumo can look like it's just a few inches. I remember Amy Weisberger deadlifting 500 something in sumo, and because she was using a more flexible Okie Deadlift Bar, she bent the bar the few inches her short body takes to lock it out, and the weights didn't even come off the floor! LOL
If the weight doesn't start on the floor, it's a modified deadlift. The deadlift, by definition, means picking up dead weight...off the floor. Hence the name.
Powerlifting is a game of physics, C. It's about moving a weight through the shortest distance from point A to B...a straight line. Many PLers choose sumo because although the ROM is the same by definition (floor to lockout), the stance shortens the stroke. Common sense will tell you that if your feet are wider apart, you have less room between the bar and lockout because your body is closer to the floor. The difference between my sumo pull and my conventional pull is about 6 inches. The ROM is still floor to lockout, but the bar travels less distance. For very short people with really long arms, the floor to lockout distance of a sumo can look like it's just a few inches. I remember Amy Weisberger deadlifting 500 something in sumo, and because she was using a more flexible Okie Deadlift Bar, she bent the bar the few inches her short body takes to lock it out, and the weights didn't even come off the floor! LOL
C
Citruscide
Guest
spatts said:
Deadlift, modified deadlift... doesn't matter what you call it, or where you pick it up from (pegs)... if it works, it works.
C-ditty
Exactly. I just consider some forms more "dangerous" than others.
Often it's not the deadlift that's the problem, it's putting it down. Many people don't have the eccentric strength to accomodate what they can pull. Prescription for disaster. A PL competition deadlift has no eccentric, so the deadlift is just that...a lift.
*This doesn't include speed deads or deads for glute/ham hypertrophy, just the 1RM.
Often it's not the deadlift that's the problem, it's putting it down. Many people don't have the eccentric strength to accomodate what they can pull. Prescription for disaster. A PL competition deadlift has no eccentric, so the deadlift is just that...a lift.
*This doesn't include speed deads or deads for glute/ham hypertrophy, just the 1RM.
Citruscide said:if it works, it works.
C-ditty
Think the bottom line of all of it is...if it works for YOU, it works for YOU. Personally the Smith Machine is an evil piece of equipment. Having said that, my goals are different than many on this board.
Did I mention that Smith Machines are EVIL...IMO
bignate73
New member
of all the talk about lifting near maximal weight or being injured trying to rack said weight. how much stabilizer work is done? do any of you do work with loads in anything other than the saggital plane? throw some transverse work in there, some rotation, some core stability work and chances are you will safeguard against the odd injury due to being slightly out of groove. transverse work puts you all out of the groove. this type of training doesnt have to the staple of your workouts but can work just as well as a prehab movement. dbell cleans for rotators=prehab. single leg romanian deads with a dbell or twisting lunges= comparable for trunk and ham glute complex.
just a thought.
ps...the smith machine for deadlifts....bad idea, thats taking a stable movement and making it even more stable. get strong with that one...and throw your back out picking up groceries.
my $0.02 anyways.
just a thought.
ps...the smith machine for deadlifts....bad idea, thats taking a stable movement and making it even more stable. get strong with that one...and throw your back out picking up groceries.
my $0.02 anyways.
C
Citruscide
Guest
bignate73 said:
Makes perfect sense... but for the Mr. Olympia's ... they don't need "strength", they just need the physique without injury. Sure, stablize, out of the groove... it's much simpler for them to use the Smith. Then they can spend their time on other things and not worry about stablizers.
C-ditty
bignate73 said:
Just thought it should be read again.
You don't have to be a PLer to want strong, functional muscles. Many a Mr. O were former PLers or trained similarly to PLers. It will put enough size on a fast twitch dense person to blow TUT theories out of the water. Put fast twitch dense PLer on a strict cutting diet, and watch the BB world get a hell of alot more competitive. Why settle for pretty when you can have it all?
Chaos recovery, preventative mechanics, whatever you want to call it...
"Shut the fuck up and train...smarter."
Like I said, there's a reason hospitals aren't full of powerlifters. In WSB especially, alot of focus is placed on recruitment and stabilization...core strength is a MUST. We have Max work, speed work, hypertrophy work, chaos recovery work, extra workouts for weak points, etc... Alot goes into making sure you say strong AND healthy.
Don't accommodate your weakness, annihilate it.
Here's a great article from Dave Tate on deadlifting. Full article can be read here:
Deadlift Article
Some of this information is great no matter what your goal is, other info applies to PLers only.
The Top 10 Deadlift Mistakes
Mistake #1: Training the deadlift heavy all the time
Very few people can train the deadlift week after week and still make progress. I feel the only ones who can get away with this are the ones who're built to deadlift. If you're built to pull, then the stress on your system is going to be less than those who aren't built to deadlift.
The deadlift is a very demanding movement and it takes a lot to recover from. This is compounded if you're also squatting every week. The squat and deadlift train many of the same muscles and this is another reason why you don't need to train the deadlift heavy all the time. Years ago the only deadlifts I did off the floor were in meets. The rest of the time was spent training the lower back, glutes, and hamstrings. While my deadlift increased 40 pounds over the first few years, I did run into some problems with this approach.
The major problem I had was when I'd go to a meet I didn't know where to place my feet and if I got stuck I didn't know how to adjust. Since I'm not built to deadlift, these things aren't natural to me. I had to find a way to put some pulling back in the program without taxing the system. What we came up with was a session of speed deadlifts with a moderate weight pulled for five or six singles. This way the weight was heavy enough to teach good form and not too heavy to tax the system. This worked out to 45 to 50% of max to be trained after the dynamic or speed squat workout. These don't need to be done every week but should be used as the meet or test day get closer.
I still suggest letting the box squat train the deadlift muscles with dynamic squat training of eight sets of two reps in a wave-like sequence. (For squat training details, see the following articles: Periodization Bible Part II, Squatting from Head to Toe, and TNT Part II for cycles and percentages.)
Let the max-effort day be for training the heavy deadlift. Try to pull off pins, off mats, or with bands one out of every four to six max effort days. Let the other day be some type of medium or close-stance good morning or low-box squat.
Mistake #2: Pulling the shoulder blades together
This is a mistake I made for years. Stand in a deadlift stance and pull your shoulder blades together. Take a look at where your fingertips are. Now if you let your shoulders relax and even round forward a little you'll see your fingertips are much lower. This is why we teach a rounding of the upper back. First, the bar has to travel a shorter distance. Second, there's less stress on the shoulder region. It'll also help to keep your shoulder blades behind the bar. You'll read more on this later.
Mistake #3: Rounding the lower back
This is another mistake I see all the time and most lifters know better. It happens most of the time because of a weak lower back or a bad start position. While keeping your shoulders rounded you must keep your lower back arched. This will keep the shin straight and the shoulders behind the bar and keep your body in the proper position to pull big while keeping the back under minimal stress.
If you pull with a rounded back, the bar is going to drift forward away from the legs, thus putting you back into a very difficult position from which to recover. When the bar drifts forward, the weight of it will begin to work against your leverages and cause you to have a sticking point just below the knees or mid-shin level. When you pull you can either arch your back in the beginning standing position before you crouch down to pull or once you grab the bar. Either way it's important to keep the lower back arched and tight.
There are many ways to strengthen the lower back for this. Good mornings, reverse hypers, and arched back good mornings are a few. You can also use a band around your traps and feet for simulated good mornings. With this technique you only use the bands and train for higher reps (in the 20 to 30 rep range) for local muscular endurance.
Mistake #4: Not having enough air in your belly
As with most exercise you must learn how to breathe. Stand in front of a mirror and take a deep breath. Do your shoulders rise? If so, then you need to learn how to breathe. Learn to pull your air into your diaphragm. In other words, use your belly! Pull as much air into your belly as possible, then when you think you have all you can get, pull more. The deadlift isn't started by driving your feet into the floor; it's started by driving your belly into your belt and hips flexors.
One note on holding air while you pull. You do need to try and hold your air as long as possible, but this can only last for a few seconds while under strain because you'll pass out. So for a long pull, you're going to have to breathe or you'll hit the floor and people will stare. While there are several people out there who may think this is a cool thing, I disagree. It's much cooler to make the lift!
So when you reach the point where you begin to really have to fight with the weight, let out small bursts of air. Don't let it all out at one time or you'll lose torso tightness and cause the bar to drop down. By letting out small bursts you can keep your tightness, continue to pull, and lock out the weight.
Mistake #5: Not pulling the bar back
The deadlift is all about leverage and positioning. Visualize a teeter totter. What happens when the weight on one end is coming down? The other end goes up. So if your body is falling backward, what happens to the bar? It goes up! If your weight is falling forward the bar will want to stay down. So if you weigh 250 pounds and you can get your bodyweight to work for you, it would be much like taking 250 pounds off the bar. For many natural deadlifters this is a very instinctive action. For others it has to be trained.
Proper positioning is important here. If you're standing too close to the bar it'll have to come over the knee before you can pull back, thus going forward before it goes backward. If your shoulders are in front of the bar at the start of the pull, then the bar will want to go forward, not backward. If your back isn't arched the bar will also want to drift forward.
For some lifters, not being able to pull back can be a muscular thing. If you're like myself, I tend to end up with the weight on the front of my feet instead of my heels. This is a function of my quads trying to overpower the glutes and hamstrings, or the glutes and hamstrings not being able to finish the weight and shifting to the quads to complete the lift. What will happen many times is you'll begin shaking or miss the weight. To fix this problem you need to add in more glute ham raises, pull-throughs and reverse hypers.
Mistake #6: Keeping the shins too close to the bar
I'm not too sure where this started but I have a pretty good idea. Many times the taller, thinner lifters are the best pullers and they do start with the bar very close to their shins. But if you look at them from the sides they still have their shoulders behind the bar when they pull. This is just not possible to achieve with a thicker lifter.
If a thicker lifter with a large amount of body mass — be it muscle or fat — were to line the bar up with his shins, you'd see he would have an impossible time getting the shoulders behind the bar. Remember you need to pull the bar back toward you, not out and away from you. So what I believe happens is many lifters look to those who have great deadlifts to see how they pull, then try to do the same themselves. What they need to do is look to those who are built the same way they are and have great deadlifts and follow their lead.
Mistake #7: Training with multiple rep
Next time you see someone doing multiple reps on the deadlift, take note of the form of each rep. You'll see the later reps look nothing like the first. In competition you only have to pull once, so you need to learn how to develop what's known as starting strength for the deadlift. This is the strength needed to get the bar off the floor without an eccentric (negative) action before the start.
In other words, you don't lower the bar first and then lift the weight as you do with the squat and bench press. When you train with multiple reps you're beginning to develop reversal strength, which isn't needed with the deadlift.
These two reasons are enough to keep the deadlift training to singles. If you're using multiple reps with the deadlift, then stand up in between each rep and restart the lift. This way you'll be teaching the proper form and be developing the right kind of strength.
Mistake #8: Not keeping your shoulders behind the bar
You've already read this a few times in this article and it's perhaps the most important thing next to hip position in the execution of the deadlift. Your shoulders must start and stay behind the barbell when you pull deadlifts! This will keep the barbell traveling in the right direction and keep your weight going backward. The deadlift isn't an Olympic lift and shouldn't be started like one.
I did a seminar with Dr. Mel Siff at one of his Supertraining camps (one of the best investments you can ever make!) and we showed the difference between the two positions. For the Olympic lifts you want the shoulders in front of the bar; for the deadlift you want them behind the bar. Period. The amount of misinformation out there about this is incredible.
Mistake #9: Looking down
Your body will always follow your head. If you're looking down then the bar is going to want to travel forward. At the same time you don't want to look at the ceiling. Focus on an area that keeps your head in a straight up and back position with the eyes focusing on an upper area of the wall.
Mistake #10: Starting with the hips too low
This is the king of all mistakes I see. Too many times lifters try to squat the weight up rather than pull the weight. Think back to the number of times you've seen a big deadlift and thought to yourself how much more the lifter could've pulled if he didn't damn near stiff-leg it. I see it all the time. Someone will say, "Did you see his deadlift?" Then the other guy will comment, "Yeah, and he stiff-legged the thing." Am I telling you to stiff leg all your deadlifts? No, not at all.
All I want you to do is look at your hip position at the start of the lift when you pull and watch how much your hips move up before the weight begins to break the floor. This is wasted movement and does nothing except wear you out before the pull. The closer you can keep your hips to the bar when you pull, the better the leverages are going to be.
Once again, next time you see a great deadlifter, stand off to the side and watch how close his or her hips stay to the bar throughout the pull. If you're putting your ass to the floor before you pull, your hips are about a mile from the bar. You're setting yourself up for disaster when the lever arm is this long. This is also the second reason why lifters can't get the bar off the floor. (The first reason is very simple: The bar is too heavy!)
You need to find the perfect spot where your hips are close to the bar, your shoulders are behind the bar, your lower back is arched, your upper back rounded, your belly full of air, and you can pull toward your body. Nobody ever said it was going to be easy, but then again, what is? (Definitely not training in a commercial health club….)
Conclusion
After I'd discussed my pulling concepts with my new trainer friend, he was a little set back. He'd never heard these things before and didn't really know what to believe. After this I took him back out on the gym floor and started guiding him through a few deadlifts. A few corrections here and there and in no time at all he pulled 405. This wasn't an easy lift for him but he made it and with that his confidence grew.
Deadlift Article
Some of this information is great no matter what your goal is, other info applies to PLers only.
The Top 10 Deadlift Mistakes
Mistake #1: Training the deadlift heavy all the time
Very few people can train the deadlift week after week and still make progress. I feel the only ones who can get away with this are the ones who're built to deadlift. If you're built to pull, then the stress on your system is going to be less than those who aren't built to deadlift.
The deadlift is a very demanding movement and it takes a lot to recover from. This is compounded if you're also squatting every week. The squat and deadlift train many of the same muscles and this is another reason why you don't need to train the deadlift heavy all the time. Years ago the only deadlifts I did off the floor were in meets. The rest of the time was spent training the lower back, glutes, and hamstrings. While my deadlift increased 40 pounds over the first few years, I did run into some problems with this approach.
The major problem I had was when I'd go to a meet I didn't know where to place my feet and if I got stuck I didn't know how to adjust. Since I'm not built to deadlift, these things aren't natural to me. I had to find a way to put some pulling back in the program without taxing the system. What we came up with was a session of speed deadlifts with a moderate weight pulled for five or six singles. This way the weight was heavy enough to teach good form and not too heavy to tax the system. This worked out to 45 to 50% of max to be trained after the dynamic or speed squat workout. These don't need to be done every week but should be used as the meet or test day get closer.
I still suggest letting the box squat train the deadlift muscles with dynamic squat training of eight sets of two reps in a wave-like sequence. (For squat training details, see the following articles: Periodization Bible Part II, Squatting from Head to Toe, and TNT Part II for cycles and percentages.)
Let the max-effort day be for training the heavy deadlift. Try to pull off pins, off mats, or with bands one out of every four to six max effort days. Let the other day be some type of medium or close-stance good morning or low-box squat.
Mistake #2: Pulling the shoulder blades together
This is a mistake I made for years. Stand in a deadlift stance and pull your shoulder blades together. Take a look at where your fingertips are. Now if you let your shoulders relax and even round forward a little you'll see your fingertips are much lower. This is why we teach a rounding of the upper back. First, the bar has to travel a shorter distance. Second, there's less stress on the shoulder region. It'll also help to keep your shoulder blades behind the bar. You'll read more on this later.
Mistake #3: Rounding the lower back
This is another mistake I see all the time and most lifters know better. It happens most of the time because of a weak lower back or a bad start position. While keeping your shoulders rounded you must keep your lower back arched. This will keep the shin straight and the shoulders behind the bar and keep your body in the proper position to pull big while keeping the back under minimal stress.
If you pull with a rounded back, the bar is going to drift forward away from the legs, thus putting you back into a very difficult position from which to recover. When the bar drifts forward, the weight of it will begin to work against your leverages and cause you to have a sticking point just below the knees or mid-shin level. When you pull you can either arch your back in the beginning standing position before you crouch down to pull or once you grab the bar. Either way it's important to keep the lower back arched and tight.
There are many ways to strengthen the lower back for this. Good mornings, reverse hypers, and arched back good mornings are a few. You can also use a band around your traps and feet for simulated good mornings. With this technique you only use the bands and train for higher reps (in the 20 to 30 rep range) for local muscular endurance.
Mistake #4: Not having enough air in your belly
As with most exercise you must learn how to breathe. Stand in front of a mirror and take a deep breath. Do your shoulders rise? If so, then you need to learn how to breathe. Learn to pull your air into your diaphragm. In other words, use your belly! Pull as much air into your belly as possible, then when you think you have all you can get, pull more. The deadlift isn't started by driving your feet into the floor; it's started by driving your belly into your belt and hips flexors.
One note on holding air while you pull. You do need to try and hold your air as long as possible, but this can only last for a few seconds while under strain because you'll pass out. So for a long pull, you're going to have to breathe or you'll hit the floor and people will stare. While there are several people out there who may think this is a cool thing, I disagree. It's much cooler to make the lift!
So when you reach the point where you begin to really have to fight with the weight, let out small bursts of air. Don't let it all out at one time or you'll lose torso tightness and cause the bar to drop down. By letting out small bursts you can keep your tightness, continue to pull, and lock out the weight.
Mistake #5: Not pulling the bar back
The deadlift is all about leverage and positioning. Visualize a teeter totter. What happens when the weight on one end is coming down? The other end goes up. So if your body is falling backward, what happens to the bar? It goes up! If your weight is falling forward the bar will want to stay down. So if you weigh 250 pounds and you can get your bodyweight to work for you, it would be much like taking 250 pounds off the bar. For many natural deadlifters this is a very instinctive action. For others it has to be trained.
Proper positioning is important here. If you're standing too close to the bar it'll have to come over the knee before you can pull back, thus going forward before it goes backward. If your shoulders are in front of the bar at the start of the pull, then the bar will want to go forward, not backward. If your back isn't arched the bar will also want to drift forward.
For some lifters, not being able to pull back can be a muscular thing. If you're like myself, I tend to end up with the weight on the front of my feet instead of my heels. This is a function of my quads trying to overpower the glutes and hamstrings, or the glutes and hamstrings not being able to finish the weight and shifting to the quads to complete the lift. What will happen many times is you'll begin shaking or miss the weight. To fix this problem you need to add in more glute ham raises, pull-throughs and reverse hypers.
Mistake #6: Keeping the shins too close to the bar
I'm not too sure where this started but I have a pretty good idea. Many times the taller, thinner lifters are the best pullers and they do start with the bar very close to their shins. But if you look at them from the sides they still have their shoulders behind the bar when they pull. This is just not possible to achieve with a thicker lifter.
If a thicker lifter with a large amount of body mass — be it muscle or fat — were to line the bar up with his shins, you'd see he would have an impossible time getting the shoulders behind the bar. Remember you need to pull the bar back toward you, not out and away from you. So what I believe happens is many lifters look to those who have great deadlifts to see how they pull, then try to do the same themselves. What they need to do is look to those who are built the same way they are and have great deadlifts and follow their lead.
Mistake #7: Training with multiple rep
Next time you see someone doing multiple reps on the deadlift, take note of the form of each rep. You'll see the later reps look nothing like the first. In competition you only have to pull once, so you need to learn how to develop what's known as starting strength for the deadlift. This is the strength needed to get the bar off the floor without an eccentric (negative) action before the start.
In other words, you don't lower the bar first and then lift the weight as you do with the squat and bench press. When you train with multiple reps you're beginning to develop reversal strength, which isn't needed with the deadlift.
These two reasons are enough to keep the deadlift training to singles. If you're using multiple reps with the deadlift, then stand up in between each rep and restart the lift. This way you'll be teaching the proper form and be developing the right kind of strength.
Mistake #8: Not keeping your shoulders behind the bar
You've already read this a few times in this article and it's perhaps the most important thing next to hip position in the execution of the deadlift. Your shoulders must start and stay behind the barbell when you pull deadlifts! This will keep the barbell traveling in the right direction and keep your weight going backward. The deadlift isn't an Olympic lift and shouldn't be started like one.
I did a seminar with Dr. Mel Siff at one of his Supertraining camps (one of the best investments you can ever make!) and we showed the difference between the two positions. For the Olympic lifts you want the shoulders in front of the bar; for the deadlift you want them behind the bar. Period. The amount of misinformation out there about this is incredible.
Mistake #9: Looking down
Your body will always follow your head. If you're looking down then the bar is going to want to travel forward. At the same time you don't want to look at the ceiling. Focus on an area that keeps your head in a straight up and back position with the eyes focusing on an upper area of the wall.
Mistake #10: Starting with the hips too low
This is the king of all mistakes I see. Too many times lifters try to squat the weight up rather than pull the weight. Think back to the number of times you've seen a big deadlift and thought to yourself how much more the lifter could've pulled if he didn't damn near stiff-leg it. I see it all the time. Someone will say, "Did you see his deadlift?" Then the other guy will comment, "Yeah, and he stiff-legged the thing." Am I telling you to stiff leg all your deadlifts? No, not at all.
All I want you to do is look at your hip position at the start of the lift when you pull and watch how much your hips move up before the weight begins to break the floor. This is wasted movement and does nothing except wear you out before the pull. The closer you can keep your hips to the bar when you pull, the better the leverages are going to be.
Once again, next time you see a great deadlifter, stand off to the side and watch how close his or her hips stay to the bar throughout the pull. If you're putting your ass to the floor before you pull, your hips are about a mile from the bar. You're setting yourself up for disaster when the lever arm is this long. This is also the second reason why lifters can't get the bar off the floor. (The first reason is very simple: The bar is too heavy!)
You need to find the perfect spot where your hips are close to the bar, your shoulders are behind the bar, your lower back is arched, your upper back rounded, your belly full of air, and you can pull toward your body. Nobody ever said it was going to be easy, but then again, what is? (Definitely not training in a commercial health club….)
Conclusion
After I'd discussed my pulling concepts with my new trainer friend, he was a little set back. He'd never heard these things before and didn't really know what to believe. After this I took him back out on the gym floor and started guiding him through a few deadlifts. A few corrections here and there and in no time at all he pulled 405. This wasn't an easy lift for him but he made it and with that his confidence grew.
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We really need to stifle the us vs. them BS. PLers and BBers have different goals. Many, like myself, cross compete. Alot of PLers could benefit from some PURTY eating habits. That's preventative medicine too.
No one should have to sacrifice safety for results, though. So if we can share a better way to meet our needs, great. We have alot to learn from eachother.
No one should have to sacrifice safety for results, though. So if we can share a better way to meet our needs, great. We have alot to learn from eachother.
Imnotdutch
butler monkey
Citruscide said:
I do not know where you read this but it is wrong. The range of motion on a sumo deadlift can be much less in a conventional deadlift. The difference is not realy the hand placement. The largest difference is foot placement. In sumo you use a wide stance compared to that used in a conventional DL. For example, I (and spatts I think) have my toes touching the plates when I do a sumo lift.
This wide stance means that your hips are closer tot he ground when you reach lockout.......so the ROM is less for a sumo lift.
spatts said:
I apologize for my attempt at sarcasm. Was not my intention to turn this into US vs THEM. Truth be told...at the end of the day we are all people. If someone can help me get closer to my goals I don't care if they are a powerlifter, bodybuilder, or pizz delivery guy....I'll listen.
Injuries are a part of both our sports, and should be avoided whenever possible. No matter what your specific goals...core strenght, not just asthetics, is IMPORTANT.
C
Citruscide
Guest
Imnotdutch said:
Actual Range of Motion yes... but the bar still has to go through the same pattern. Start at floor, come up, and back down. (BTW, i'm very familiar with HOW sumo's look).
When I say the ROM should be the same, I am meaning that one should go all the way down, and then come all the way back up... I'm aware that foot placement will decrease the range the bar travels... but it must travel none-the-less.
C-ditty
I came across an exerpt from Glass that says he uses these Smith Deadlifts to work a specific angle at the point of contraction. They use a smaller percentage of max weight for these, and for the purposes of focusing on peak contraction. The idea being that it was easier to focus on peak ROM contraction on Smith because it's easier to hold in that plane. THAT makes sense. They are not used as a replacement for standard deadlifts, just another angle to hit your weakness, and get rid of it: "Charles literally looks at the body of the athlete he is training, finds his weaknesses and then fills those holes in. Always be aware of what needs work and hit that area with a specialized exercise." Sound familiar?
C
Citruscide
Guest
spatts said:
Deadlifts are deadlifts. I do mine on a platform so I can have a constant motion and not have my weights hit the floor all the time.
I never said they should go further down than the floor. I said that bar and weights on Sumo and deadlifts should start and end in the same place... sure, I know, wider stance, less motion... but the bar still has to go DOWN and UP.
I've seen some versions of the "Sumo" where people don't use the FULL range of motion... simply going down half-way... that doesn't cut it in my book.
C-ditty
I don't want to beat a dead horse, but a sumo lift, as performed by a PLer does NOT go down and up...it goes up and maybe down. This sounds like I'm being nit-picky, but it's actually a HUGE difference in concentric:eccentric strength ratio, core stability and recruitment requirements, and most of all SAFETY. That's what we're talking about, right? Your deadlift starts at the top and requires reversal strength. It's likely an RDL if you're starting up top and dropping below floor level on a platform. We never start up and go down, though. Maybe that's why you think they're more dangerous than I do. Rightfully so.
Deadlifts ARE deadifts. That's not a deadlift.
http://www.olympus.net/personal/cablebar/RL.htm
You will notice in this article on how to perform Romanian Deadlifts that the first instruction reads: START IN THE COMPLETED DEADLIFT POSITION. In other words, "start in an upright position." Apparently the Romanians know it's backwards from a "deadlift" too.
What do you mean going down half way on a sumo? We don't even GO DOWN. We COME UP. I'm confused. That sounds like a wide stance front squat to me.
Deadlifts ARE deadifts. That's not a deadlift.
http://www.olympus.net/personal/cablebar/RL.htm
You will notice in this article on how to perform Romanian Deadlifts that the first instruction reads: START IN THE COMPLETED DEADLIFT POSITION. In other words, "start in an upright position." Apparently the Romanians know it's backwards from a "deadlift" too.
What do you mean going down half way on a sumo? We don't even GO DOWN. We COME UP. I'm confused. That sounds like a wide stance front squat to me.
Imnotdutch
butler monkey
I think people are just misunderstanding each other here......almost a powerlifter vs bodybuilder thing.
To a powerlifter a deadlift is a very specific lift. You pull the bar from the floor until you are standing upright (there are details in there....but we wont dwell on them). If you do that you only need to lower the bar under control (ie: drop the bar whilst remember to keep your hands on it) to complete a lift. Hence Spatts's emphasis on pulling then lowering.
As a bodybuilder you would prob do multiple reps so the negative portion takes on more importance. There are people who don't touch the floor. Others lower slowly or quickly. Some even start from the top and do reps.
I think Citruside is also using a different definition of ROM. As a powerlifter, I mean the distance that the bar is moved. Citruside, are you talking about ROM in terms of the range the muscle is contracted over?
To a powerlifter a deadlift is a very specific lift. You pull the bar from the floor until you are standing upright (there are details in there....but we wont dwell on them). If you do that you only need to lower the bar under control (ie: drop the bar whilst remember to keep your hands on it) to complete a lift. Hence Spatts's emphasis on pulling then lowering.
As a bodybuilder you would prob do multiple reps so the negative portion takes on more importance. There are people who don't touch the floor. Others lower slowly or quickly. Some even start from the top and do reps.
I think Citruside is also using a different definition of ROM. As a powerlifter, I mean the distance that the bar is moved. Citruside, are you talking about ROM in terms of the range the muscle is contracted over?
Citruscide said:
When you say on a platform...do you mean just your feet are elevated? Or are the plates and your feet at the same level?
That could also cause some confusion. When I think of platform deadlifts I think of elevated feet. Which in essence would mean that you are going further down than the floor.
I agree with you imnotdutch, of course, as I have stated this throughout the thread as well. I was under the impression that the topic centers around the safest method for building the erectors. When was the last time you saw a powerlifter with lagging erectors? How do you know that if you didn't do a traditional, by the book, deadlift you wouldn't get better, safer results? This isn't really BB vs PL...back in "the day" bodybuilders DID deadlift. There was no choosing between pretty and strong. They stuck to compound basics for density, and used accessory movements for hypertrophy...not TOO unlike WSB. The thread quickly turned to whether or not a deadlft is safe. How can one determine deadlifts to be unsafe if never performed?
As always, do what works for you. The only way to find out you could be doing it better, safer, more efficiently ANOTHER way, is to try it. Until you have, you don't know.
As always, do what works for you. The only way to find out you could be doing it better, safer, more efficiently ANOTHER way, is to try it. Until you have, you don't know.
Imnotdutch
butler monkey
There is a whole world of difference between the typical back in the day bodybuilder and bodybuilders of today. I was referring to the latter. I think that removing the functionality part of bodybuilding was a big mistake.....but that is another story.
I totally agree about how to determine what is safe and what is not........its a shame that so many people are prepared to go through their lives accepting whatever is told to them.
I totally agree about how to determine what is safe and what is not........its a shame that so many people are prepared to go through their lives accepting whatever is told to them.
spatts said:
C
Citruscide
Guest
I think I am talking about a different range of motion that some people here are... as, there are several that exist. But, it's rather moot.
Imnotdutch said it correctly, I believe. I do my deads on a platform... the entire motion is controlled, lift and lower in a slow controlled motion. I feel it is a much greater exercise (at least FOR ME) when done that way... I could do the "traditional" deadLIFT and lift without lowering controlled, I could probably do 3x as much as I do now... but, I haven't had a need to do that much weight... either.
I do use the platform, but I don't lower the weights any lower than the platform... I do this because my deadlifts I don't stop at the ground... it would get rather annoying hitting the weight on the ground each time... it'd mess up my "controlled movement".
To each their own... At least everyone here is doing something right... I get sick of assclowns at my gym doing "deadlifts" and looking like they are doing shoulder shurgs.
C-ditty
Imnotdutch said it correctly, I believe. I do my deads on a platform... the entire motion is controlled, lift and lower in a slow controlled motion. I feel it is a much greater exercise (at least FOR ME) when done that way... I could do the "traditional" deadLIFT and lift without lowering controlled, I could probably do 3x as much as I do now... but, I haven't had a need to do that much weight... either.
I do use the platform, but I don't lower the weights any lower than the platform... I do this because my deadlifts I don't stop at the ground... it would get rather annoying hitting the weight on the ground each time... it'd mess up my "controlled movement".
To each their own... At least everyone here is doing something right... I get sick of assclowns at my gym doing "deadlifts" and looking like they are doing shoulder shurgs.
C-ditty
Ya know...there comes a time when you have to quit debating, quit arguing, quit complaining, quit comparing, and quit planning...and you have to actually step into the pit of death, wrap your hands around a piece of cold steel, and challenge gravity to a duel.
There is something very productive about something so simple...
B True
There is something very productive about something so simple...
B True
Imnotdutch
butler monkey
Ok but I am not in the gym right now so I cant challenge gravity.......I get to do that tomorrow. In the meantime I see no harm in discussing lifting with others (particularly as I am trying to avoid doing some work!).
b fold the truth said:
circusgirl
New member
spatts said:
I've been told to drop the bar if I feel tension in the lower back when lowering it back to the floor. I DL on the olympic platforms in my gym specifically designed to cope well with dropped bars, so there's no damage done, to me or the equipment.
My dad bust a disk or three "deadlifting" sheep. He used to weigh them by getting up on the scale with the sheep held in a similar position to the bar (and subtracting his own weight)! Trouble is, the little bastards move round and struggle, making this super unsafe. My mom eventually hid the scale so he couldn't do this. (A big sheep can weigh 100lbs).
SofaGeorge
New member
Texas Ranger said:
I worked out next to Flex, Chris and Charles Glass for years and years. I never once saw anyone at the gym ever do Smith Machine deadlifts. That had to be done ONLY for the tape.
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