Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below I think that maybe I can throw a slightly different spin on the current r-ALA craze. Coming back from surgery, you can be sure that I won't be doing any crazy-german-volume-training kinda stuff. Nonetheless, I need to get back on the wagon and drop some BF. I have no intensions of counting calories, my diet is inherently deficient in fats, but I really don't have any gravity to junk or sweets. So,.... I started the r-ALA experiment today to see if the weight comes off 'any differently'. Although I'm not an obese Zucker Rat, I thought I could represent the average Jane. I'm jotting down what I eat (approx. amounts), and when. I'll do my single site pinch test tonight for the purpose of identifying change. I've been doing stretch class and pilates 2x/week each with some weights (mostly upper body) added over the last two weeks. Like I said, nothing major. I thought that it would be good to seperate the results from the chemistry intensives. I'll try to remember to post once a week and invite all you other gals to do the same for easy cross reference.
r-ALA experiment
- Thread starter th'wolf
- Start date
mixed feelings
Week 1:
I have a few sides noted. I took 100mg r-ALA per 20-30g carbs which boiled down to 500-600mg r-ALA per day. I eat 5 times per day and would not take any if the meal carb intake did not excede 20g, so it is true that I typically consume more than 100g of carbs in a day. For the first two days I found myself getting lightheaded and flushed some (excess?) water. My sensitivity to caffeine has been on the rise. (This stuff gives me gas too.) Since about the third day, I've been struggling with some serious dehydration. I've increased my H2O intake but it doesn't seem to help much. My skin has grown so dry that I almost have a rash, my lips keep wanting to crack. But... my muscles have not ached like they have been since I finished my deca cycle 2 years ago. My endurance is noticibly up (ie. I was able to double my reps per set on situps).
The pants seemed to get a tad more loose around the waist and my daughter commented that I'd lost weight. I was expecting water weight loss on the scales today, but much to my surprise, I put on 2#'s. (no resistance training this week either,... oh, and no change in the calipers) So honestly, my head is spinning with some of the implications. I'm really intrigued with the way my muscles and endurance are responding and it makes me question my overall reaction to the deca. Then again, this dehydration has me way concerned.
That's all for this week.
Week 1:
I have a few sides noted. I took 100mg r-ALA per 20-30g carbs which boiled down to 500-600mg r-ALA per day. I eat 5 times per day and would not take any if the meal carb intake did not excede 20g, so it is true that I typically consume more than 100g of carbs in a day. For the first two days I found myself getting lightheaded and flushed some (excess?) water. My sensitivity to caffeine has been on the rise. (This stuff gives me gas too.) Since about the third day, I've been struggling with some serious dehydration. I've increased my H2O intake but it doesn't seem to help much. My skin has grown so dry that I almost have a rash, my lips keep wanting to crack. But... my muscles have not ached like they have been since I finished my deca cycle 2 years ago. My endurance is noticibly up (ie. I was able to double my reps per set on situps).
The pants seemed to get a tad more loose around the waist and my daughter commented that I'd lost weight. I was expecting water weight loss on the scales today, but much to my surprise, I put on 2#'s. (no resistance training this week either,... oh, and no change in the calipers) So honestly, my head is spinning with some of the implications. I'm really intrigued with the way my muscles and endurance are responding and it makes me question my overall reaction to the deca. Then again, this dehydration has me way concerned.
That's all for this week.
Pink Space Biscuit
New member
MS said:
I've had major problems with that too. I don't even fall asleep at night until after a dozen trips to the bathroom.
enough
major dehydration is a really bad mix with degenerative arthritis. I haven't had a decent nights sleep for over a week (getting up to pee; muscle cramps from dehydration; ?) Maybe this stuff would be a good compliment to a 'water retaining cycle' but on it's own, ... it's not worth it.
major dehydration is a really bad mix with degenerative arthritis. I haven't had a decent nights sleep for over a week (getting up to pee; muscle cramps from dehydration; ?) Maybe this stuff would be a good compliment to a 'water retaining cycle' but on it's own, ... it's not worth it.
That's not the problem Fonz.....I drink plenty water. The glycogen storage is working fine with the r-ALA, but I am still peeing too much and getting dehydrated. In other words the water is going in one end and out the other without stopping off to hydrate the rest of my body inbetween (aside from my muscles). At a guess, this is the same phenomena that Ula experienced, resulting in a large reduction in interstitial and plasma fluid (and therefore her remarkably quick weight loss). Although it's prolly due to changes in insulin secretion (which is a good thing), there must be someway to counteract it without raising insulin levels????? I've tried potassium supps without success, so now I'm upping all of my electrolytes. I'll let you know if it helps.
If I can't get it sorted, I may also have to ditch the r-ALA. Dry skin, interrpupted sleep from polynocturia, and dehydration induced migraines are not just minor side effects for me!
If I can't get it sorted, I may also have to ditch the r-ALA. Dry skin, interrpupted sleep from polynocturia, and dehydration induced migraines are not just minor side effects for me!
macrophage69alpha
New member
USE LESS..
women may find that they can get away with lower doses as their insulin sensitivity is often higher. (with the menapausal being a different category)
note: taking flax oil with meals seems to help with the water issue.
also eat more carbs.. you can
women may find that they can get away with lower doses as their insulin sensitivity is often higher. (with the menapausal being a different category)
note: taking flax oil with meals seems to help with the water issue.
also eat more carbs.. you can
" USE LESS.. " LOL. It's ironic in a previous thread how every one commented on how LITTLE I was using. But I agree, I'm obviously using more than I need. I already eat plenty of carbs (that's why I'm taking th r-ALA), so I'll save money and cut my dose some more. I think I'll start opening the caps and taking 50mg instead of 100 for smaller carb meals. I really think 100mg of r-ALA is too much when I've eaten nothing more than, say a muesli bar or hunza bread with 30g carbs in it for a snack. I also don't take the ALA with post workout carbs.
Use less is right MS and th'wolf
We are seeing more and more that r-ALA is much more powerful than it was first thought. Try not to exceed 300mg in a day while it's making you pee so much. This side will go away by the way with regular use.
This side is not in ANY of the literature. No where, not a word. If anyone sees anything about it please let me know.
Some of this stuff is new and the dosing is still kind of tricky.
One of the doctors who is buying it from us for his patients in Texas gasped when I told him our customers were taking 600-900mg a day. He uses 300-600mg for his Hep C patients that haven't gone to cirrohsis yet. You all are healthy so 600mg seems to be too high.
BTW he is so impressed with the results thus far that he is insisting that all his new patients buy r-ALA when they begin therapy. Next time he orders I will ask if I can post his name.
We are seeing more and more that r-ALA is much more powerful than it was first thought. Try not to exceed 300mg in a day while it's making you pee so much. This side will go away by the way with regular use.
This side is not in ANY of the literature. No where, not a word. If anyone sees anything about it please let me know.
Some of this stuff is new and the dosing is still kind of tricky.
One of the doctors who is buying it from us for his patients in Texas gasped when I told him our customers were taking 600-900mg a day. He uses 300-600mg for his Hep C patients that haven't gone to cirrohsis yet. You all are healthy so 600mg seems to be too high.
BTW he is so impressed with the results thus far that he is insisting that all his new patients buy r-ALA when they begin therapy. Next time he orders I will ask if I can post his name.
T
The Shadow
Guest
MS said:
YES....I am getting those symptoms as well.....with regular ala - as I hit 3-4 grams per day I grt dehydration headaches......I am drinking SO much water that I am up at least twice during the night and I still wake up dry with cottonmouth///skin is in shitty condition.....I'm gonna hose down a slip n slide with olive oil and take a header
I should have mentioned that I have been consuming a lot of glycerol.....I put a CUP of the stuff in every batch of hunza bread I make (instead of honey). It is strange that my body FEELS like it's lacking sodium even though I'm not limiting my sodium in any way, and the glycerol hasn't helped. This really is strange, but I'm still betting on reduced hyperinsulemia as the main cause. Women are so much more prone to fluid retention when insulin levels go up. I'll just cut back and see what happens. I think this is is good thing overall, since I am normally very prone to sodium induced fluid retention. I'll keep you posted.
True FONZ, but the only thing that has changed in my diet is the r-ALA. Same carb, same sodium, same glycerol intake as before. The glycerol has been in there for years. It is quite clear that r-ALA has some additional water repartitioning/diuretic effects in me that are difficult to account for. I also find it interesting that many of us non-diabeic (presumably healthy) folks have noticed this even though it hasn't (to my knowledge) been cited as a side effect in use with diabetic patients. As I have speculated since Ulter's first post regarding Ula's 2 week/10 lb weight loss, there's a lot of water going somewhere, although I have not personally lost weight, I have misplaced some water!! I would think if it were a purely diuretic effect that I would have also noticed some weight loss??
macrophage69alpha
New member
there is definitely a change in electrolyte balance, likley due to increased membrane permeability as well as higher glycogenation of tissues.
try varying increasing/decreasing sodium intake..
increasing is probably better for most people...
ala is, given its mechanism, very likely potassium sparing.
this is a just a superficial analysis, will be looking into it further..
though have noticed that this is experienced more by people with a low sodium diet..
try varying increasing/decreasing sodium intake..
increasing is probably better for most people...
ala is, given its mechanism, very likely potassium sparing.
this is a just a superficial analysis, will be looking into it further..
though have noticed that this is experienced more by people with a low sodium diet..
a couple questions..
do you find that r-ala works best with specific carbs...not just carb amounts? ie difference in taking it before sugar or sweet potato?
other thing, wouldnt it be wiser to take the r-ala with a pure hi carb meal not a high carb/fat meal...eg better to take it with lollies than full-fat icecream...the carbs are "taken care" of but what about the hi fat content?
or am i missing the point?
thanks for this post...now i know why my skin is soooo dru and my nose is even peeling!
ive now lowered my dose to 100-200mg per day usually in the morning.
do you find that r-ala works best with specific carbs...not just carb amounts? ie difference in taking it before sugar or sweet potato?
other thing, wouldnt it be wiser to take the r-ala with a pure hi carb meal not a high carb/fat meal...eg better to take it with lollies than full-fat icecream...the carbs are "taken care" of but what about the hi fat content?
or am i missing the point?
thanks for this post...now i know why my skin is soooo dru and my nose is even peeling!
ive now lowered my dose to 100-200mg per day usually in the morning.
My personal experience is that r-ALA works more dramatically with high carb/high fat meals. But that may just be because my glucose sensitivity is pretty good otherwise. I found almost no difference in glucose AUC when I ate pure high GI carbs with or without r-ALA, and no difference at all with low GI carbs (specifically chick peas), but there was a significant difference in AUC when I ate Pizza with or without r-ALA. Keep in mind my carb meals are not very large anyway.....the most I would eat in a normal carb meal is 100g, averaging 300-350g per day total of mostly low GI carbs and low fat intake. Pizza is more of a high fat exception than the rule.
OK, I'll post something on Tuesday (I'm doing some more Pizza tests this weekend OUCH).
As for gender differences, I think that is premature.....I'm just one female and my r-ALA results may be very different to the next female. But someone's gotta get the ball rolling. It is pretty difficult to make sense out of it all, and I think the fluctuating hormones really do cause a large variation for me. Either that, OR r-ALA is addictive (causes insulin resistance???) in the sense that my baseline glucose levels were very much higher after stopping r-ALA for a few weeks compared to before I started the r-ALA. In other words, my glucose response before I started the r-ALA was much lower than it is now after 4 weeks on r-ALA followed by 2 weeks off.....scary!
As for gender differences, I think that is premature.....I'm just one female and my r-ALA results may be very different to the next female. But someone's gotta get the ball rolling. It is pretty difficult to make sense out of it all, and I think the fluctuating hormones really do cause a large variation for me. Either that, OR r-ALA is addictive (causes insulin resistance???) in the sense that my baseline glucose levels were very much higher after stopping r-ALA for a few weeks compared to before I started the r-ALA. In other words, my glucose response before I started the r-ALA was much lower than it is now after 4 weeks on r-ALA followed by 2 weeks off.....scary!
macrophage69alpha
New member
if this is the case (ms scenario) it is more likely due to less secreted insulin.. if you come off of r-ala.. a taper may be in order.. or taking supps that enhance insulin secretion... quercetin, etc...
macrophage69alpha said:
If I remember correctly, R-S-ALA resulted in a higher plasma insulin level than that of the R-enantiomer correct?
What if you switched/cycled the two.
I've been locked up studying non-science classes at school
, and I am sort of in a different frame of mind lately. SUX. Had to say that in case I totally missed the mark on this one.That's okay, because next semester I will be back on the science route...
BMJ
btw...I have access to blood glucometers, maybe i'll start keeping track as well. I have to use the r,s-enantiomer right now because of the ol' budget though.
MS
This is coming from long-term memory.
We did a glycerol study years ago with endurance athletes, looked at many variables (blood glucose, lactate, insulin, etc.) as well as markers of hydration, urine output, etc., cycling performance and thermoregulation.
I do remember from the early lit on glycerol that is causes dehydration particularly at the brain level. One of the reasons that people get headaches when they use it particularly if they are already dehydrated. The reason you may be having the sodium cravings despite normal intake is that there may be another sensory mechanism driving that craving at the central level due to the glycerol. Normally the hypothalamus will sense blood osmolality and drive thirst and sodium appetite, as sodium is necessary for whole body rehydration. It may be that while blood osmolality/whole body hydration is OK, some area of the brain is still sensing dehydration as a function of glycerol and continuing to drive the thirst/Na mechanism.
Back off on the glycerol and see what happens.
W6
This is coming from long-term memory.
We did a glycerol study years ago with endurance athletes, looked at many variables (blood glucose, lactate, insulin, etc.) as well as markers of hydration, urine output, etc., cycling performance and thermoregulation.
I do remember from the early lit on glycerol that is causes dehydration particularly at the brain level. One of the reasons that people get headaches when they use it particularly if they are already dehydrated. The reason you may be having the sodium cravings despite normal intake is that there may be another sensory mechanism driving that craving at the central level due to the glycerol. Normally the hypothalamus will sense blood osmolality and drive thirst and sodium appetite, as sodium is necessary for whole body rehydration. It may be that while blood osmolality/whole body hydration is OK, some area of the brain is still sensing dehydration as a function of glycerol and continuing to drive the thirst/Na mechanism.
Back off on the glycerol and see what happens.
W6
Longtime viewer first time responder. Thought it was important to add my 2cents when I noticed that MS was experiencing higher baseline blood glucose readings while on ALA. I check my BG levels daily (upon waking and at diferent times during the day). When taking ALA my morning BG was consistently higher, and after a while I began noticing higher BG readings post meal. Now everyone has a different bodytype, so experiences will vary. But one other thing that concerns me is that so many posters complain about feeling tired after large doses of ALA and carbs. Unless they have a glucometer, hypoglycemia and hyperglycemia are hard to self diagnose. One simple rule that diabetics follow though is that shakiness, confusion, tension usually accompany hypoglycemia (verified this with my glucometer), while fatigue and tiredness usually accompany hyperglycemia (verified this with my glucometer).
This is off topic, but is a relatively new study worth pulling up. Thought i'd add it to this thread instead of opening a new one.
: J Nutr 2002 Oct;132(10):3001-6 Related Articles, Links
Alpha-lipoic acid inhibits glycogen synthesis in rat soleus muscle via its oxidative activity and the uncoupling of mitochondria.
Dicter N, Madar Z, Tirosh O.
Institute of Biochemistry, Food Science and Nutrition, Faculty of Agricultural, Food and Environmental Quality Sciences, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Rehovot 76100, Israel.
alpha-Lipoic acid (LA) is currently being investigated as a glucose-lowering agent for diabetes control; it is also considered a powerful dietary antioxidant. The objective of this study was to investigate the fate of glucose in isolated rat muscles incubated with LA and determine its effects on intramuscular redox status. Rat soleus muscles were incubated for up to 60 min with 2.4 mmol/L LA in the presence or absence of insulin. Intramuscular concentrations of LA were evaluated (uptake and reduction), and glycogen synthesis, glucose oxidation, intramuscular reactive oxygen species (ROS) production and mitochondrial membrane potential investigated. Insulin enhanced glycogen synthesis, whereas LA decreased rates by >50%. LA elevated ROS production and in combination with t-butylhydroperoxide, an oxidant, additively inhibited glycogen synthesis rates by 80%. Insulin acted as an antioxidant and attenuated ROS production by 30%. LA uncoupled the mitochondria and accelerated glucose oxidation 1.5-fold relative to the control. The glycogen synthesis pathway was found to be dependent on mitochondrial function because treatment with mitochondrial inhibitors eliminated the majority of glycogen synthesis. These data show that in this model, LA acts as a mild prooxidant, causing mitochondrial uncoupling and inhibition of glycogen synthesis. It appears that LA regulates glucose metabolism in the muscle differently than insulin.
PMID: 12368386 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
BMJ
: J Nutr 2002 Oct;132(10):3001-6 Related Articles, Links
Alpha-lipoic acid inhibits glycogen synthesis in rat soleus muscle via its oxidative activity and the uncoupling of mitochondria.
Dicter N, Madar Z, Tirosh O.
Institute of Biochemistry, Food Science and Nutrition, Faculty of Agricultural, Food and Environmental Quality Sciences, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Rehovot 76100, Israel.
alpha-Lipoic acid (LA) is currently being investigated as a glucose-lowering agent for diabetes control; it is also considered a powerful dietary antioxidant. The objective of this study was to investigate the fate of glucose in isolated rat muscles incubated with LA and determine its effects on intramuscular redox status. Rat soleus muscles were incubated for up to 60 min with 2.4 mmol/L LA in the presence or absence of insulin. Intramuscular concentrations of LA were evaluated (uptake and reduction), and glycogen synthesis, glucose oxidation, intramuscular reactive oxygen species (ROS) production and mitochondrial membrane potential investigated. Insulin enhanced glycogen synthesis, whereas LA decreased rates by >50%. LA elevated ROS production and in combination with t-butylhydroperoxide, an oxidant, additively inhibited glycogen synthesis rates by 80%. Insulin acted as an antioxidant and attenuated ROS production by 30%. LA uncoupled the mitochondria and accelerated glucose oxidation 1.5-fold relative to the control. The glycogen synthesis pathway was found to be dependent on mitochondrial function because treatment with mitochondrial inhibitors eliminated the majority of glycogen synthesis. These data show that in this model, LA acts as a mild prooxidant, causing mitochondrial uncoupling and inhibition of glycogen synthesis. It appears that LA regulates glucose metabolism in the muscle differently than insulin.
PMID: 12368386 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
BMJ
Ceebs, you will find that almost ALL so called anti-oxidants also exhibit pro-oxidant activity too. ALA, much like glutathione, is more of an oxidant "buffer" than a true anti-oxidant (involved in redox cycling). And don't forget that your body also has an absolute requirement for anti-oxidants, especially the immune system.
Interesting thread. Wislon6, I don't have sodium cravings at all. Just thirsty and peeing a lot. Could be the glycerol, but since my intake hasn't changed in a long time, I can't figure out why ALA would suddenly cause the glycerol to have this effect, especially given the reports of the other ALA users who also report the thirst/peeing/dehydration (who are presumably not eating much glycerol).
MR BMJ, I haven't speculated much (just observing at this stage), but if I WERE to speculate, I would tend towards macros theory regarding reduced insulin secretion (hopefully temporary). After all, I did go through a patch of hypoglycemic symptoms when I first started th r-ALA, so it's not to hard to imagine that my body has somehow 'learned' that it doesn't need as much insulin from taking the ALA chronically. No need to invoke downregulation of GLUT4. But as I mentioned, things get pretty screwy when you start looking at variation in insulin secretion and glucose disposal in non-diabetic eumenorrheic women. You're trying to measure small differences against and ever changing background of hormones!
The rat soleus study is interesting, but without reading the whole paper it's hard to conclude much. Glycogen synthesis may be resistant to insulin stimulation during periods of acute starvation in muscles with fiber compositions similar to the epitrochlearis, but NOT in muscles with fiber compositions similar to the soleus. Partial reversal of the resistance observed in vitro for epitrochlearis muscles from starved rats may be due to the loss of factors which suppress the effect of insulin in vivo. So it makes big difference (in rats) if you're looking at soleus versus epitrochlearis, and whether you're looking at starved (glycogen depleted) versus well fed muscles. They should have looked at the epitrochlearis too, and stated whether the muscles were fed or depleted......
In any events, I don't think MY calves have any glycogen synthase activity at all. Thy're strong, but never grow, with or without ALA.
Interesting thread. Wislon6, I don't have sodium cravings at all. Just thirsty and peeing a lot. Could be the glycerol, but since my intake hasn't changed in a long time, I can't figure out why ALA would suddenly cause the glycerol to have this effect, especially given the reports of the other ALA users who also report the thirst/peeing/dehydration (who are presumably not eating much glycerol).
MR BMJ, I haven't speculated much (just observing at this stage), but if I WERE to speculate, I would tend towards macros theory regarding reduced insulin secretion (hopefully temporary). After all, I did go through a patch of hypoglycemic symptoms when I first started th r-ALA, so it's not to hard to imagine that my body has somehow 'learned' that it doesn't need as much insulin from taking the ALA chronically. No need to invoke downregulation of GLUT4. But as I mentioned, things get pretty screwy when you start looking at variation in insulin secretion and glucose disposal in non-diabetic eumenorrheic women. You're trying to measure small differences against and ever changing background of hormones!
The rat soleus study is interesting, but without reading the whole paper it's hard to conclude much. Glycogen synthesis may be resistant to insulin stimulation during periods of acute starvation in muscles with fiber compositions similar to the epitrochlearis, but NOT in muscles with fiber compositions similar to the soleus. Partial reversal of the resistance observed in vitro for epitrochlearis muscles from starved rats may be due to the loss of factors which suppress the effect of insulin in vivo. So it makes big difference (in rats) if you're looking at soleus versus epitrochlearis, and whether you're looking at starved (glycogen depleted) versus well fed muscles. They should have looked at the epitrochlearis too, and stated whether the muscles were fed or depleted......
In any events, I don't think MY calves have any glycogen synthase activity at all. Thy're strong, but never grow, with or without ALA.
Yes, but in my case I know for sure (thanks to the glucometer) that I do not have hyperglycemia.
Without a doubt in my mind, the thirst/peeing side effect is mainly due to reduced insulin. What is hard to figure out is why I'm not losing weight. For a comparison, in the first week of a traditional bodybuilding diet where I reduce carbs and sodium while increasing protein, I can expect to develop increased thirst and more frequent urination BUT I LOSE 3-4 KILOS of fluid as well. With the r-ALA I have the exact same symptoms WITHOUT the weight loss. It is obvious to me that the r-ALA is somehow repartitioning fluid as well as carbs.
As an update, I have reduced my daily r-ALA dose by 50%, and the dehydration isn't as bad as it was. I actually slept the whole night last night without a single trip to pee But then again, that was after a nice big salty/carby/fatty pizza feed.......and my glucose AUC was a lot higher this time around (prolly not enough r-ALA). So maybe more sodium will do the trick. I'll try doubling my sodium for the next week and let you know how that goes.
Without a doubt in my mind, the thirst/peeing side effect is mainly due to reduced insulin. What is hard to figure out is why I'm not losing weight. For a comparison, in the first week of a traditional bodybuilding diet where I reduce carbs and sodium while increasing protein, I can expect to develop increased thirst and more frequent urination BUT I LOSE 3-4 KILOS of fluid as well. With the r-ALA I have the exact same symptoms WITHOUT the weight loss. It is obvious to me that the r-ALA is somehow repartitioning fluid as well as carbs.
As an update, I have reduced my daily r-ALA dose by 50%, and the dehydration isn't as bad as it was. I actually slept the whole night last night without a single trip to pee
But then again, that was after a nice big salty/carby/fatty pizza feed.......and my glucose AUC was a lot higher this time around (prolly not enough r-ALA). So maybe more sodium will do the trick. I'll try doubling my sodium for the next week and let you know how that goes."Frequent urination could also be the result of ohter hormone abnormalties (lack of vassopresin)."
That's what I was thinking as I was reading through this. Sounds like diabetes insipidus, but why? Then again, onset can be acute and occur at any age.
You guys are all kicking around the hyperglycemia idea, well that would be osmotic diuresis but MS isn't hyperglycemic. But, she may have developed over time, very high blood glycerol concentrations for reasons unknown or a threshold concentration was finally achieved, or there may be interactive effects with menstrual phase. We found that glycerol was grossly elevated in the blood for 4 - 6 hours after a single feeding. High chronic glycerol intake could be causing the problem.
I know you've been taking the glycerol for some time MS, but renal clearance may have changed, perhaps there is some synergistic effect with ALA, who knows. I'd suggest cutting out all glycerol for about 5 days and see what happens. If the polyuria stops, then you have your answer. If not, then its time to get checked for DI.
W6
That's what I was thinking as I was reading through this. Sounds like diabetes insipidus, but why? Then again, onset can be acute and occur at any age.
You guys are all kicking around the hyperglycemia idea, well that would be osmotic diuresis but MS isn't hyperglycemic. But, she may have developed over time, very high blood glycerol concentrations for reasons unknown or a threshold concentration was finally achieved, or there may be interactive effects with menstrual phase. We found that glycerol was grossly elevated in the blood for 4 - 6 hours after a single feeding. High chronic glycerol intake could be causing the problem.
I know you've been taking the glycerol for some time MS, but renal clearance may have changed, perhaps there is some synergistic effect with ALA, who knows. I'd suggest cutting out all glycerol for about 5 days and see what happens. If the polyuria stops, then you have your answer. If not, then its time to get checked for DI.
W6
No problem W6. As it happens, I ran out of glycerol recently and have substituted honey in my recipe. It doesn't feel or taste as nice, but it does allow me an opportunity to "dry out" and clear the dietary glycerol from my body.
Aside from that, reduced vasopressin doesn't really explain why I haven't lost "fluid" weight. Judging from the mirror, I definitely have less subQ fluid and my muscles are still full, no change in weight. On the surface this is all good and is exactly what one would expect from a glucose partitioning agent like r-ALA. I was more puzzled by Ula's initial results where she lost 10lbs weight in 2 weeks without changing anything. Now THAT has gotta be a change in fluid balance.
There is definitely something interesting going on here, and it's not just me. It's all anecdotal for sure, but the other posters who have noticed similar symptoms must be in the same boat as me. Now if r-ALA in otherwise apparently healthy people can cause DI, that is worth knowing!! Aside from interrupted sleep, it's nice not to be a bloat bag for a change. I have always been prone to fluid retention most of my adult life.
Anyway, I only got up once last night, so it looks like cutting back on the ALA or glycerol is working
Aside from that, reduced vasopressin doesn't really explain why I haven't lost "fluid" weight. Judging from the mirror, I definitely have less subQ fluid and my muscles are still full, no change in weight. On the surface this is all good and is exactly what one would expect from a glucose partitioning agent like r-ALA. I was more puzzled by Ula's initial results where she lost 10lbs weight in 2 weeks without changing anything. Now THAT has gotta be a change in fluid balance.
There is definitely something interesting going on here, and it's not just me. It's all anecdotal for sure, but the other posters who have noticed similar symptoms must be in the same boat as me. Now if r-ALA in otherwise apparently healthy people can cause DI, that is worth knowing!! Aside from interrupted sleep, it's nice not to be a bloat bag for a change. I have always been prone to fluid retention most of my adult life.
Anyway, I only got up once last night, so it looks like cutting back on the ALA or glycerol is working
macrophage69alpha
New member
increase the sodium intake.. r-ala is pottasium sparing
OK, lots of good advice here. In the name of good research, I'm not going to increase my sodium just yet. If I change too many variables at once (I've already reduced my ALA dose and ditched the glycerol) then we'll never know what's going on. Maybe after a week of this, I'll start increasing my dose of ALA, then reintroduce glycerol, and THEN I'll try increasing sodium. One thing at a time.
"Maybe after a week of this, I'll start increasing my dose of ALA, then reintroduce glycerol, and THEN I'll try increasing sodium. One thing at a time"
Good approach. No glycerol, keep r-ALA and sodium constant (were they are now) all for a week, see what happens. Then increase the r-ALA back to where it was when the polyuria began. If nothing then add in the glycerol, if it begins again then cut the r-ALA, if it persists then its the glycerol. If not, then an interactive effect. Change the sodium last.
W6
Good approach. No glycerol, keep r-ALA and sodium constant (were they are now) all for a week, see what happens. Then increase the r-ALA back to where it was when the polyuria began. If nothing then add in the glycerol, if it begins again then cut the r-ALA, if it persists then its the glycerol. If not, then an interactive effect. Change the sodium last.
W6
macrophage69alpha
New member
any change?
macrophage69alpha
New member
?
just took 100mg r-ala post workout, with the following meal:
1/2 cup cereal - puffed rice, bran, seeds etc
scoop protein powder
plus
tinned salmon (helps w the sodium issue?) w 1/4 small pumpkin and heaps of vegies - tomato, carrot, brocc, capcicum etc
this seem ok?
how long does the r-ala stay in your system for? ie how long can i have the carbs for after taking the r-ala?
thanks
1/2 cup cereal - puffed rice, bran, seeds etc
scoop protein powder
plus
tinned salmon (helps w the sodium issue?) w 1/4 small pumpkin and heaps of vegies - tomato, carrot, brocc, capcicum etc
this seem ok?
how long does the r-ala stay in your system for? ie how long can i have the carbs for after taking the r-ala?
thanks
MiniColemans
New member
Fonz said:
Hmmm...you mean Glut-4 downregulation due to ALA use?
I thought that wasn't bio-cemically possible?
You know like on/off/ HPTA is more like shades of gray.
(Hell, I could be wrong)
If you're right........oh shit. Then its time to cycle ALA too..
Fonz
Glut-4 receptors increase with exercise also, so I dont think so.
macrophage69alpha
New member
at ultra high concentration reduction of glut-4 would be possible (ones not achievable with human oral use).. probably 30g + of racemic
No longer lurking
So if I am hearing you all correctly, we are trying to determine a good dosage for r-ala. Ultimately we want to minimize sides(dry mouth, polyuria, etc) and encourage weight loss as well as enhance our energy by making glucose more bioavailable?
The common dosage up untill now has been 100mg r-ala / 30g CHO. We now believe that this is excessive. MS, you have halved your dose, and eliminated glycerol? Additionally, your energy in the gym is good and you look leaner but have not lost any 'scale weight?' I'm just trying to decipher where we are now. I am about to give r-ala a try specifically to enhance the bioavailability of CHO (muscle fuel to burn). I'm not concerned with weight loss per se but am having success with a lower carb eating plan. My training is about to increase and I hope to make the most of the carbs I ingest. The plan is to take r-ala right after my training session and eat (carbs+protein) within a few minutes of that. My goal is to enhance my recovery and have a successful season. Questions, comments welcome.
Storm
So if I am hearing you all correctly, we are trying to determine a good dosage for r-ala. Ultimately we want to minimize sides(dry mouth, polyuria, etc) and encourage weight loss as well as enhance our energy by making glucose more bioavailable?
The common dosage up untill now has been 100mg r-ala / 30g CHO. We now believe that this is excessive. MS, you have halved your dose, and eliminated glycerol? Additionally, your energy in the gym is good and you look leaner but have not lost any 'scale weight?' I'm just trying to decipher where we are now. I am about to give r-ala a try specifically to enhance the bioavailability of CHO (muscle fuel to burn). I'm not concerned with weight loss per se but am having success with a lower carb eating plan. My training is about to increase and I hope to make the most of the carbs I ingest. The plan is to take r-ala right after my training session and eat (carbs+protein) within a few minutes of that. My goal is to enhance my recovery and have a successful season. Questions, comments welcome.
Storm
Iron Queen
New member
confused...
I'm new at this whole r-ala thing. I heard about it a while ago on the AF board but didnt read too much into it because I just thought it was another regular "supp" that wasnt a big deal. Now that I'm reading into it, I'm extremely curious....
In a contest prep... say if I'm doing 5 meals per day.... with the first 4 meals of the day having 33 carbs each (the last carb meal is post training) how would I take this? Just 1, 100mg cap, maybe 2-3 times per day tops?
Also MS, I see that you noticed the water loss was more so sub-q, and you still had full looking muscles. How could this be used maybe the week or so before a show, going right up into a show, maybe as a diuretic?
Any info on this? I'm very curious and am going to start using this supp. this week...... my show isnt until June so I've got some time to play around a bit with this.
IQ
I'm new at this whole r-ala thing. I heard about it a while ago on the AF board but didnt read too much into it because I just thought it was another regular "supp" that wasnt a big deal. Now that I'm reading into it, I'm extremely curious....
In a contest prep... say if I'm doing 5 meals per day.... with the first 4 meals of the day having 33 carbs each (the last carb meal is post training) how would I take this? Just 1, 100mg cap, maybe 2-3 times per day tops?
Also MS, I see that you noticed the water loss was more so sub-q, and you still had full looking muscles. How could this be used maybe the week or so before a show, going right up into a show, maybe as a diuretic?
Any info on this? I'm very curious and am going to start using this supp. this week...... my show isnt until June so I've got some time to play around a bit with this.
IQ
macrophage69alpha
New member
loss of sub-q water is due to reduction of plasma insulin (which increases sub Q water)
Iron Queen, I have always used (racemic) ALA for my carb-up precontest with good results. This carb loading of muscles without too much insulin induced sub-q water retention is very noticeable in this situation.....I would still suggest you try it a few weeks out just to make sure you don't have any strange reactions to it. I have not used it otherwise while contest dieting, but my contest diet seems to keep my natural insulin sensitivity very high. If I were doing a diet that decreased insulin sensitivity (eg CKD) then I would definitely include ALA during the carb-ups. Put another way, I haven't noticed any difference in blood glucose levels with or without r-ALA as long as my carb intake at each meal is under 50g and low fat. Of course I can't measure insulin, so I can't be sure. But as soon as I have a pig out (high carb and/or high fat), THEN r-ALA makes a noticeable difference (and I'm not even dieting right now). I predict insulin sensitivity is even higher on a submaintenance diet with lots of exercise.
macrophage69alpha
New member
women tend to have higher insulin sensitivity..
btw- the dryness etc described by MS is completely alleviated by biotin, which is available at AF and will be in the new glucorellR.
btw- the dryness etc described by MS is completely alleviated by biotin, which is available at AF and will be in the new glucorellR.
"the dryness etc described by MS is completely alleviated by biotin"........I take supplemental biotin and r-ALA still drys me out
"women tend to have higher insulin sensitivity.."............??? In spite of higher bodyfat, plasma FFA and ketones, young healthy women have similar insulin sensitivity as young healthy men (Gianluca Perseghin et al, 2001). This is non-obese folks. Women taking OCs have reduced insulin sensitivity. Of course men and post-menopausal women are more prone to develop central obesity/metabolic syndrome and when this happens then they obviously have reduced insulin sensitivity (then again you would no longer classify them as 'young and healthy'). In any event insulin sensitivity changes throughout a woman's monthly hormone cycle, and at least some of the symptoms of PMS can be attributed to decreased sensitivity/increased plasma insulin. This is prolly the best time to take r-ALA (or avoid carbs?) if you are an otherwise young and healthy female not on OCs.
"women tend to have higher insulin sensitivity.."............??? In spite of higher bodyfat, plasma FFA and ketones, young healthy women have similar insulin sensitivity as young healthy men (Gianluca Perseghin et al, 2001). This is non-obese folks. Women taking OCs have reduced insulin sensitivity. Of course men and post-menopausal women are more prone to develop central obesity/metabolic syndrome and when this happens then they obviously have reduced insulin sensitivity (then again you would no longer classify them as 'young and healthy'). In any event insulin sensitivity changes throughout a woman's monthly hormone cycle, and at least some of the symptoms of PMS can be attributed to decreased sensitivity/increased plasma insulin. This is prolly the best time to take r-ALA (or avoid carbs?) if you are an otherwise young and healthy female not on OCs.
T
The Shadow
Guest
btw - A reliable person is about to be selling r-ala caps at 40 cents per 200 mg.....
btw - what is the racemic mix of ala in terms of R vesion versus the other form???
btw - what is the racemic mix of ala in terms of R vesion versus the other form???
macrophage69alpha
New member
Cornholio said:
thats 2$ per gram...thats the same price as AF.. which is bottled and independently tested.
50/50 at time of manufacture.. though due to many factors the amount of r may be cosiderably less at time of use/purchase
T
The Shadow
Guest
well...this comes capped which is a big plus for me...and will come with a lab assay as well...
T
The Shadow
Guest
if the mix is 50:50 and I can get 500 mg racemic ala for 20 cents per cap....then I am getting 250 mg of the r version for 20 cents theoretically...correct?
macrophage69alpha
New member
Cornholio said:
it does not work that way.. S isomer works contrary to R in many aspects
T
The Shadow
Guest
how so.....by limiting carb storage or by raising blood sugar??
macrophage69alpha
New member
Cornholio said:
the assay is junk... unless it is independent.. every chem company sends an assay with the material.. it means nothing
T
The Shadow
Guest
dude - wow......it comes from an independent lab in another state.
I am in the lab business so I know a legit test when I see it.
I am in the lab business so I know a legit test when I see it.
macrophage69alpha
New member
Cornholio said:
negating insulin reduction, impairing glucose storage, reducing anti-ox effect in many tissues.. basically it blocks a lot of the "good" that r-alpha lipoic does.
T
The Shadow
Guest
I should note that the lab result is based on after capping process and tracked ny lot numbers....
thanks for the info regarding the difference is the two...so is that support for a racemic miz when bulking?
thanks for the info regarding the difference is the two...so is that support for a racemic miz when bulking?
macrophage69alpha
New member
Cornholio said:
not really, unless you like having more water and fat gain... though these can help with over all gains..
"That's way overpriced. An excellent independantly tested source sells it for $850 per kilo (plus postage). Gets cheaper too the more kilos you buy. Not much fun capping your own though, and not very accurate if you don't have good quality scientific scales."
Considering that would last the average person 9 years and it's only good for two years I don't see the advantage of that, and capping r-ALA is not like any other powder. It's very difficult.
MS, How much Biotin are you using per 100mg of r-ALA?
Virtually every other person I know who added the biotin saw the dryness disappear within two weeks. That's why I ask.
Considering that would last the average person 9 years and it's only good for two years I don't see the advantage of that, and capping r-ALA is not like any other powder. It's very difficult.
MS, How much Biotin are you using per 100mg of r-ALA?
Virtually every other person I know who added the biotin saw the dryness disappear within two weeks. That's why I ask.
"Considering that would last the average person 9 years and it's only good for two
years I don't see the advantage of that"
Agreed...it would only be economical for someone who was going to share it or on-sell it.
I have recently been taking 5000mcg biotin once per day whether or not I use ALA. I also eat a lot of biotin rich foods (legumes, brewer's yeast, egg yolks, whole grains, nuts and mushrooms etc...). However it is always possible that I need more. I haven't had the problem since I've been using the P7 though.
years I don't see the advantage of that"
Agreed...it would only be economical for someone who was going to share it or on-sell it.
I have recently been taking 5000mcg biotin once per day whether or not I use ALA. I also eat a lot of biotin rich foods (legumes, brewer's yeast, egg yolks, whole grains, nuts and mushrooms etc...). However it is always possible that I need more. I haven't had the problem since I've been using the P7 though.
macrophage69alpha
New member
biotin is rapidly excreted.. it should be taken with every cap.. which is why it is being added to glucorellR. once a day dosing is not as good, but it helps. much better results with lower more frequent doses.
I would not assume that what is needed for a diabetic is the same as what is needed by someone with already decent insulin sensitivity. At 5mg per day (the amount I'm taking), it is actually pretty high for someone who is supposedly healthy. Likewise I don't beleieve (but have no proof either way) that healthy weight exercising individuals will benefit as much as diabetics from high doses of r-ALA. That's not to say there is NO benefit, but I find it hard to believe that mega-doses are necessary.
Anyway, all is well now that I have good old fashioned fluid retention back again (thanks P7).
Anyway, all is well now that I have good old fashioned fluid retention back again (thanks P7).
Ceebs
New member
@#&#$!! 
After I received and unpacked my shipment of r-ALA the other day, I accidently left one of the unopened bottles within a few inches of the food dehydrator, which gets fairly warm. Since the search engine is running slow as molasses right now, what's the temperature at which r-ALA degrades?
After I received and unpacked my shipment of r-ALA the other day, I accidently left one of the unopened bottles within a few inches of the food dehydrator, which gets fairly warm. Since the search engine is running slow as molasses right now, what's the temperature at which r-ALA degrades?
macrophage69alpha
New member
its not entirely known.. but at temps over 90, expecially for extended periods, care should be taken..
sure that it is fine..
things like leaving in car during summer time for hours on end (no.. no)
sure that it is fine..
things like leaving in car during summer time for hours on end (no.. no)
MiniColemans
New member
Ceebs said:
No, they lie to get in your pants
macrophage69alpha
New member
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