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question about pyramids
- Thread starter wannabeBB
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I , like Dorian Yates and Mike Mentzer, are from the high intensity low volume school and we hate phyramiding and here is why........too much time and energy is wasted on sub max sets.
As a side.......most top powerlifters no longer phyramid, unless they are training with very low reps (sets of 3). When trying to build a combo of strength and power they stick to sets of 5 in everything. The weight is usually kept the same for the work sets and sometimes allowed to drop so the reps can be made on the following sets. Usually they kept the reps the same since they wait a long time between sets.
This is not to say that they do not warm up..they do...but not in the energy draining phyramiding style. Why put out so much energy with sub maximal sets....you will not be able to give your all in the final sets as a results of this.
You can train hard and you can train long but you cannot train hard and long.
Try this... three progressively heavier warm ups in the squat. Keep the reps LOW at around 5-6 and don't tire yourself out. Now you are warmed up....next pile on as much weight as you can for 12 reps. Work very hard and squat deep. Rest 3-4 minutes and then do it again with the same weight. Go like hell and you'll only manage about 10 reps. Some high intensity men reduce the weight a little for each successsive work set since rest time between sets is limited. Thats two works sets and plenty...
Next go over to the leg press machine and do at most one warm up set and then pile on the weight again and do the same thing as with the squat. Go deep and push very hard....the set will take a long time if you are working hard enough. The only reason I recommned a warm up set for the leg press is because if you go deep there is a different kind of stress on the low back than with squats.....the entire upper thighs are warmed up from the squats.Quads done now go home and rest them for a full week.
Most of the time I do not do any warm ups for the second exercise of a muscle group. For example after stiff leg deads I go right into my heaviest set of leg curls....after incline presses I go right into my heaviest set of hammer declines....after hammer curls I go right into my heaviest set of BB curls....after hamer overhead presses I go right into heavy DB laterals...the list goes on
I will do a warm up set with lying tri extensions, even if done after push downs, since this exercise is somewhat hard on the elbow joint. But If I do dips after push downs then I don't do a warm up set.
So you have to look at the exercise and also you have to consider if you are super prone to injury.Also one must also train VERY strictly and slowly. Never train in an explosive manner or sooner or latter you will suffer a big injury.
Dorian Yates got so damn strong that he was blowing tendons left right and center so in his latter years he did more warm ups just to be extra safe...but he NEVER phyramided.
I highly recommend the book "A Warriors Story" by Dorian Yates
RG
As a side.......most top powerlifters no longer phyramid, unless they are training with very low reps (sets of 3). When trying to build a combo of strength and power they stick to sets of 5 in everything. The weight is usually kept the same for the work sets and sometimes allowed to drop so the reps can be made on the following sets. Usually they kept the reps the same since they wait a long time between sets.
This is not to say that they do not warm up..they do...but not in the energy draining phyramiding style. Why put out so much energy with sub maximal sets....you will not be able to give your all in the final sets as a results of this.
You can train hard and you can train long but you cannot train hard and long.
Try this... three progressively heavier warm ups in the squat. Keep the reps LOW at around 5-6 and don't tire yourself out. Now you are warmed up....next pile on as much weight as you can for 12 reps. Work very hard and squat deep. Rest 3-4 minutes and then do it again with the same weight. Go like hell and you'll only manage about 10 reps. Some high intensity men reduce the weight a little for each successsive work set since rest time between sets is limited. Thats two works sets and plenty...
Next go over to the leg press machine and do at most one warm up set and then pile on the weight again and do the same thing as with the squat. Go deep and push very hard....the set will take a long time if you are working hard enough. The only reason I recommned a warm up set for the leg press is because if you go deep there is a different kind of stress on the low back than with squats.....the entire upper thighs are warmed up from the squats.Quads done now go home and rest them for a full week.
Most of the time I do not do any warm ups for the second exercise of a muscle group. For example after stiff leg deads I go right into my heaviest set of leg curls....after incline presses I go right into my heaviest set of hammer declines....after hammer curls I go right into my heaviest set of BB curls....after hamer overhead presses I go right into heavy DB laterals...the list goes on
I will do a warm up set with lying tri extensions, even if done after push downs, since this exercise is somewhat hard on the elbow joint. But If I do dips after push downs then I don't do a warm up set.
So you have to look at the exercise and also you have to consider if you are super prone to injury.Also one must also train VERY strictly and slowly. Never train in an explosive manner or sooner or latter you will suffer a big injury.
Dorian Yates got so damn strong that he was blowing tendons left right and center so in his latter years he did more warm ups just to be extra safe...but he NEVER phyramided.
I highly recommend the book "A Warriors Story" by Dorian Yates
RG
Last edited:
spatts said:
One will never reach ones optimal level of strength without explosive training but optimal muscle mass attainment does not need explosiveness.
If you are very resistant to injury then explosive training may be just what the doctor ordered. Just be sure to keep your form absolutely perfect. AND there is a difference between explosiveness and cheating a heavy weight up.....I know you know that spatts ...I am addressing this to others.
I got to 250 fairly lean and very strong pounds at 5'10" without ever using explosive training. Grant it I would have attained higher totals on the big three if I spent time on explosive training, but maybe not ,since i could have been injured. I think a 750 squat, 450 bench, and 850 deadlift is good enough.
RG
RG
spatts said:AS works wonders, huh?
Damn it spatts you are always a step ahead of me. he he he
Yes, I will be the forst to say that I would have never gotten even close to that level of developement without juice.
For examle, the average man at 5'9 or 10" can get to a fairly lean 190 and with true totals of 300-400 and 500 respectively in the big three without juice....but that even takes at least 7 or 8 serious years and usually more.
If one wants to look at what the really big men that never used juice looked like, and the level of power they had, then one needs to leaf through the issues of IRONMAN from the 1950's and early 60's.......THEY WERE WAY SMALLER and nowhere near as strong and it has NOTHING to do with advancements in training.
The biggest classic BBer of the 50's and early 60's was Steve Reeves. Reg Park came on a little latter and so did Bill Pearl and they were both bigger than Reeves, and they both used juice, especially Parks.
Reeves had great genetics and the body of a god........ He had 18 inch arms...and a true 18 inch arm is very big...I always wondered what he would have attained to if he was born 40 years latter and had the benefit of steroids.
Personally I do not like the look of the super freaks of today, especilly the women.
Now the body of Spatts ...now thats another story he he he ...don't tell my wife or she will kill me, especially since she has been on Superanabolin and is a bit grumpy.
RG
Arioch
New member
Never have. 01AUG02 will be 31 years of training in an explosive manner. Olympic lifting has a lower injury rate than powerlifting, both of which have a lower injury rate than bodybuilding and recreational lifting. This has been extensively documented, and there are several relevant studies which I have posted in their entirity on this board.
WRT pyramiding, it is a good way to tire yourself out before you get to serious weight. If you really wish to increase the volume with light weight lifting, make the last set a drop set or something.
"No serious strength athlete has used pyramid training since 1964." V.M. Zatsiorsky.
Arioch said:
Thanks and good points but I still think it is risky for some.
Also, I think the main reason that olympic lifters and powerlifters are injured less is because they train smarter than most BBers....they don't over train nearly as often because they train with relatively low volume and less days per week than most bbers.
RG
Why do many bbers still phyramid anyway...WTF gives?
I guess I am blinded by what my two hero's have said...Mentzer and Yates were both very much against explosive training. They were of the opinion that it is just too risky and not needed for optimal muscular growth. Now powerlifting and olympic lifters obviously need to train in an explosive manner SOME of the time or they will never develope optimal power.
Bro would you agree that powerlifters and olympic lifters do not always train in an explosive manner and if so then why don't they.......could it be that explosive training done all the time is risky for them?
RG
Bro would you agree that powerlifters and olympic lifters do not always train in an explosive manner and if so then why don't they.......could it be that explosive training done all the time is risky for them?
RG
Arioch
New member
One of the reasons that OL'ers will not train all of their lifts in an explosive manner all of the time is that this is only one method of the basic three wrt increasing strength. Dynamic effort will influence any number of neurophysiological responses, such as rate coding, recruitment, etc, but is less than optimal for maximal hypertrophy or pure CNS stimulation.
Maximal gains in CNS recruitment are seen through the maximal effort method (using a 1 rep max). This method does not improve several factors, but greatly influences others, including autogenic inhibition.
Reptition training will stimulate maximal hypertrophy, but does little for most neural factors. Furthermore, it can cause sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, which is next to useless at best and doom at worst for an athlete who wishes to remain in a weight class, as it contributes little in the way of contractile strength as well.
WSB powerlifters train explosively at least twice a week, on the squat and bench, respectively. Always. Two other days are devoted to maximal effort, and even on ME days, the goal is still to explode with the weight.
OL'ers will training some of the lifts explosively constantly, sometimes several different lifts are trained explosively each workout. Only a very few lifts are not trained in an explosive manner, and even these are not done to any sort of slow tempo, maybe a two second eccentric at the longest. Examples being good mornings.
One of the things that is often misunderstood about OLing is the degree of specific training that must take place. Good example from the early seventies. Patera(USA), Redding (Bel), and Alexeev(RUS) were the leading SHW athletes. Both Patera and Redding were far stronger on the squat and deadlift than Alexeev, and both spent a fair amount of time on assistance work, moving weights in a slower manner. Alexeev spent all of his time training in a ballistic manner, and consequently was able to acclerate his lifts with lest wasted effort on the plaform. And on meet days he always won. Alexeev had developed both his sport specific strength, and improved his recruitment patterns to such a degree, that he has the greatest differential wrt speed of his first and second pull of any athlete ever measured (1.0 m/s:1.8 m/s), and it has still not been achieved by any athlete even 30 years later.
Maximal gains in CNS recruitment are seen through the maximal effort method (using a 1 rep max). This method does not improve several factors, but greatly influences others, including autogenic inhibition.
Reptition training will stimulate maximal hypertrophy, but does little for most neural factors. Furthermore, it can cause sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, which is next to useless at best and doom at worst for an athlete who wishes to remain in a weight class, as it contributes little in the way of contractile strength as well.
WSB powerlifters train explosively at least twice a week, on the squat and bench, respectively. Always. Two other days are devoted to maximal effort, and even on ME days, the goal is still to explode with the weight.
OL'ers will training some of the lifts explosively constantly, sometimes several different lifts are trained explosively each workout. Only a very few lifts are not trained in an explosive manner, and even these are not done to any sort of slow tempo, maybe a two second eccentric at the longest. Examples being good mornings.
One of the things that is often misunderstood about OLing is the degree of specific training that must take place. Good example from the early seventies. Patera(USA), Redding (Bel), and Alexeev(RUS) were the leading SHW athletes. Both Patera and Redding were far stronger on the squat and deadlift than Alexeev, and both spent a fair amount of time on assistance work, moving weights in a slower manner. Alexeev spent all of his time training in a ballistic manner, and consequently was able to acclerate his lifts with lest wasted effort on the plaform. And on meet days he always won. Alexeev had developed both his sport specific strength, and improved his recruitment patterns to such a degree, that he has the greatest differential wrt speed of his first and second pull of any athlete ever measured (1.0 m/s:1.8 m/s), and it has still not been achieved by any athlete even 30 years later.
Arioch
New member
By hard as in fast as hell, yes, but a relatively low intensity (%1RM), 50 - 70% or so. However, chains or bands are often added to increase the weight as leverage improves, utilizing compensatory acceleration.
Periodization is still the most commonly seen form of PL training, and the squat, bench, and dead are normally trained hard once each week. Some people will rotate assistance exercises, whereas others can stick to the same exercises for an extended period of time, with very little variation. My son has developed this ability, probably just to irritate me.
It is worth noting that the most successful teams in both OL and PL have trained using the conjugate method, and not the periodized model.
Periodization is still the most commonly seen form of PL training, and the squat, bench, and dead are normally trained hard once each week. Some people will rotate assistance exercises, whereas others can stick to the same exercises for an extended period of time, with very little variation. My son has developed this ability, probably just to irritate me.
It is worth noting that the most successful teams in both OL and PL have trained using the conjugate method, and not the periodized model.
Airoch.....what do you think I could have attained to in the big three if I had trained like you recommend.....I am 40 now so I probably couldn't reach my absolute maximums.
Old maxes attained at 35 were 450 bench...750 squat and 850 deadlift. Do you think I could surpass these totals at at my age with your methods?
I am down a bit from these now but could probably still do 400-700 and maybe 800 on the deadlift.
RG
Old maxes attained at 35 were 450 bench...750 squat and 850 deadlift. Do you think I could surpass these totals at at my age with your methods?
I am down a bit from these now but could probably still do 400-700 and maybe 800 on the deadlift.
RG
Haz
New member
I like to pyramid my first exercise, just because it allows for a great warm up, and keeps injuries to a minimum. After that first exercise though, I'm less likely to do it. The muslce I am working is plenty ready for heavy weight.
However, I don't think there is one best way to train. Try mixing it up and seeing what works best for you.
However, I don't think there is one best way to train. Try mixing it up and seeing what works best for you.
circusgirl
New member
re plyometrics / explosive sets -
first newbie question - does explosive training mean using a lower weight and proper form but "exploding" the hard part of the lift like a plyometric jump?
second newbie question - one trainer told me that I should have a good strength base before atttempting plyometrics at all, (my tkd coach had the whole squad doing them, I mentioned this to this trainer) as otherwise there was considerable potential for injury - is this correct? And does it also apply to explosive lifting?
first newbie question - does explosive training mean using a lower weight and proper form but "exploding" the hard part of the lift like a plyometric jump?
second newbie question - one trainer told me that I should have a good strength base before atttempting plyometrics at all, (my tkd coach had the whole squad doing them, I mentioned this to this trainer) as otherwise there was considerable potential for injury - is this correct? And does it also apply to explosive lifting?
Arioch
New member
Depends. For some, it is lowering the weight under control, and then exploding as you described. The true dynamic effort method is done as quickly as possible, essentially a 1/1 tempo. This is done to maximize the myotactile response, as well as to reduce trauma and soreness from the eccentric phase.
The Olympic lifts have little to no eccentric component.
Yes, one should have not only a decent strength base but have the advantage of increased bone density prior to performing plyometrics.
As to quick lifting, like so many other things, it depends. As a general rule, your average individual should probably wait a while. However, someone with a heavy athletic background or long history of extreme physical labor probably does not have to worry much.
circusgirl
New member
thanks Arioch this was useful!
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