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pullup problems question
- Thread starter kgarto
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I agree with booey. Even if you can only do a few, it will be much more beneficial than doing a whole lot of pulldowns.
I also have a pull-up related question. I have recently realized that my back is quite out of proportion in comparison to my chest. Someone told me recently on these forums that I should be able to row (with good form) just about as much as I bench, and I simply am not at that level. I have been practicing pull-ups just to get better at them for a few days now, and I feel like when I do a wide grip pull up immediately my forearms come together and my body goes away from the bar...imagine a reverse curl position while hanging from the bar. When I finish the set I don't feel it that much in my back at all. Is this because my chest is trying to compensate for the imbalance?
I also have a pull-up related question. I have recently realized that my back is quite out of proportion in comparison to my chest. Someone told me recently on these forums that I should be able to row (with good form) just about as much as I bench, and I simply am not at that level. I have been practicing pull-ups just to get better at them for a few days now, and I feel like when I do a wide grip pull up immediately my forearms come together and my body goes away from the bar...imagine a reverse curl position while hanging from the bar. When I finish the set I don't feel it that much in my back at all. Is this because my chest is trying to compensate for the imbalance?
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Anthrax Invasion
Guest
mojaz87 said:
Actually, you should row about 80% of your bench. Doing the exact same isn't likely to happen. The hardest portion of the exercises are at different points, and you have a natural advantage with the bench.
Wide grip does nothing a narrow grip won't do. Stop doing them with a pronated (overhand) grip, do them supinated (underhand). Do them just inside shoulder width so your elbows come to your sides as you do the pullup. This maximally recruits the biceps by giving them the best line of pull which makes the exercise more effective.
Your chest has nothing to do with a pullup. Put down the crack pipe.
Learn to draw your shoulder blades back and pull yourself up with your back lats. You shouldn't really be going straight up and down. As you raise, you'll more than likely want to try pulling your chest into the bar so you're like this: /
Try to think about your arms being hooks, just holding you on. Your back does the really movement. The arms can eek out the last bit of the rep, but let the back do the majority, as it's supposed to. When I learned this, I found I was able to do chinups with a lot more weight than I had previously mustered. Mmm mustard.
Anthrax Invasion said:
I appreciate the advice, but this was totally unnecessary. I was simply asking a question and trying to relay as much information as I could about what was happening when I performed the exercise. I don't know if you feel this type of comment is humorous or that you're a pretty witty guy, but neither is the case. That type of statement is something I would expect from a middle schooler or somebody like ILikeToLift. My point was that I didn't feel I was incorporating my back into the exercise the way I should and instead I feel tight in the chest after doing chinups(I realize that the pull up is not a chest exercise) I like to use a variety of grips, whether pronated or supinated (you're not the only one on EF who knows what these mean...), wide or narrow. Nevertheless thanks for the advice, but your tone really detracted from its value. This forum is about helping other members when they have trouble so that someone will help you if you happen to need it later on. Lately, it seems people have forgotten that and the forum is quickly deteriorating into a bashfest because certain people think they know everything after reading the cliffnotes to an outdated kinesiology book.
theprofessor
New member
why not just do supersets of pullups followed by pulldowns?kgarto said:
say if you get like 5 pullups, do a weight you can get 5 pulldowns with- immediately. i even like to do this after a set of 12-15 pullups and follow up immediately with the pulldowns just to up the intensity level. 3 sets like that will tax your lats.
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Anthrax Invasion
Guest
mojaz87 said:
Oh boohoo, did I hurt your fucking feelings? Too bad. You complain about it sounding like a comment from a middle schooler, and I'll retort by saying your big block of text (break it up a bit, jesus christ) is obnoxious and that you need to butch the fuck up. How's that for "detracting" from the value of my post?
By the way, my posts are so awesome, they're worth millions. That's value for ya'.
I don't think I know everything. I know that I know everything.
Nothing I read came from a kinesiology book. I've never even opened one. Oh well.
You shouldn't talk though, Mr. "chest getting involved in the pullup and taking away from the back muscles".
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Anthrax Invasion
Guest
DZLS said:
Negatives are good if you can't do regular reps. If you can't do them you can also use an assisted machine or do pulldowns until you build the muscle strength do do pullups.
Sorry, that whole shit about pulldowns not doing anything is wrong. The muscle will still be developed with pulldowns and as you get stronger on them, you can switch to pullups/chinups.
theprofessor
New member
intensity dude... i never said to not reach failure on the pullup end of the set...DZLS said:
djeclipse
New member
mojaz87 said:
He answered your question and posted a whole bunch of good info. But instead of appreciating the advice you focus all of your atention on a little smart ass remark he wrote, lol.
That's just AI, he took the time to write a good reply, don't worry about the 1% BS he adds in there for good measure.
Anthrax Invasion said:Oh boohoo, did I hurt your fucking feelings? Too bad. You complain about it sounding like a comment from a middle schooler, and I'll retort by saying your big block of text (break it up a bit, jesus christ) is obnoxious and that you need to butch the fuck up. How's that for "detracting" from the value of my post?
By the way, my posts are so awesome, they're worth millions. That's value for ya'.
I don't think I know everything. I know that I know everything.
Nothing I read came from a kinesiology book. I've never even opened one. Oh well.
Always gotta appreciate the internet tough guy... Your verbal assault has left me shivering in my A&F undies.
bignate73
New member
keep hitting the pullups. if it helps try to do more volume throughout your workout example: if you commonly do 3x8 thats 24 reps. try to throw a set of 5 or 6 solid pullups in throughout your workout 5-6 times. that effectively increases your workload and will get your reps back up in no time. pulldowns are ok..just ok. if you are doing pullups and you lose some reps, just keep at it with lower reps and more sets to maintain the workload.
thats my opinion.
thats my opinion.
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Anthrax Invasion
Guest
mojaz87 said:
Don't limit it to the internet. It also applies to the telephone, radio and television. Given the opportunity, I'll be a prick to any one, any where. It depends on my mood.
'course I could go into the whole "yeah well if I met you for real..." bullshit, but we all know where that will lead. 'sides, we both know I'd gut you like a trout. Uh-huh, uh-huh.
Well, AI, as this thread's turned into the pullup forum, I want to pose another one for you.
I used to always do pullups with a supinated grip as you suggest, but now can do almost twice as many this way as the other. So I switched to wide-grip, which definately don't feel as 'natural' for me.
Would there be a specific reason why I'm much weaker this way other than I haven't done as many with the pronated grip?
My thanks in advance.
I used to always do pullups with a supinated grip as you suggest, but now can do almost twice as many this way as the other. So I switched to wide-grip, which definately don't feel as 'natural' for me.
Would there be a specific reason why I'm much weaker this way other than I haven't done as many with the pronated grip?
My thanks in advance.
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Anthrax Invasion
Guest
You switched from supinated to pronated? That'd be your reason right there, really. Also, going to a wider grip will give the biceps a poor line of pull compared to a closer one. The optimal line of pull will be when your elbows come along your sides with a closer grip.
It's rare to have anyone do more pronated than supinated, simply because you're using your musculature more effectively with an underhand/supinated grip. It's the same as benching with an arch. Learn to use it, and you can put up more weight due to leverages. In the end the main thing is making progress as we all know. 'course, you gotta try and get the best bang for your buck with compounds, and I feel chinups do this perfectly.
It's rare to have anyone do more pronated than supinated, simply because you're using your musculature more effectively with an underhand/supinated grip. It's the same as benching with an arch. Learn to use it, and you can put up more weight due to leverages. In the end the main thing is making progress as we all know. 'course, you gotta try and get the best bang for your buck with compounds, and I feel chinups do this perfectly.
I agree with your reasoning. I'd switched under the theory of working the weaker muscle ability. Do you think there's any merit to this or am I just spinning my wheels by not getting maximum recruitment. Ordinarily, I would consider your answer first (not getting best recruitment) but there's such a large disparity I thought it might be something else.
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Anthrax Invasion
Guest
fortunatesun said:
There's a large disparity about squats being bad for your knees and back. Well, there was anyway. Didn't follow that, did you?
People make the mistake of thinking that:
A) Wider grip = wider lats. This is inherently false. In fact, the closer grip will also have you working across a slightly longer ROM, which is likely better anyway.
B) Using an overhand grip is harder, so it must be better. That is to say that, since it's difficult, it's reasonable to think it's more effective. In reality, it's only harder 'cause you have less than optimal bicep recruitment, so you're losing something in the lift. A chinup recruits the lats optimally (moreso than pullups) as well as the biceps. This is why it is "easier". You can load it heavier and thusly make better progress.
The only thing I can see worth arguing is that the pullup works the lats as a humeral adductor, chinups a shoulder extensor. Big discrepancy? Probably not, but it might have a slightly different effect. If you're a bodybuilder profressionally, maybe toy with it. Or if you're looking for a challenge in terms of leverage. Otherwise, stick to chinups.
Quadsweeps Sister
New member
kgarto said:
I would also say to continue with the pull ups, there really is no substitute for them - you have to do them to get better at them. In the meantime, (if you feel) you may have a weak point with your lats, try some of the following:
-On a bench day, try to do sets of pull ups throughout the entire workout. Start with them and in between some of the other exercises do them again. Try for 4 sets of 12 throughout.
-If you find your flat bench is close to you incline bench; i.e. flat at 94% of incline, then your lats may need some work. Try chest supported rows, seated rows, face pulls, bent over rows... Pick one or two of these exercises and try for 6-10 sets.
Its always a great feeling when you can hang weight off yourself and still pull yourself up with a wide grip.
Good luck to you.
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Anthrax Invasion
Guest
Quadsweep's Sister said:Its always a great feeling when you can hang weight off yourself and still pull yourself up with a wide grip.
Agreed. I did that tonight, and I felt pretty awesome. I can't lower all the way without the plate hitting the floor though. That's badass. That's because I'm badass.
Anthrax Invasion said:There's a large disparity about squats being bad for your knees and back. Well, there was anyway. Didn't follow that, did you?
People make the mistake of thinking that:
A) Wider grip = wider lats. This is inherently false. In fact, the closer grip will also have you working across a slightly longer ROM, which is likely better anyway.
B) Using an overhand grip is harder, so it must be better. That is to say that, since it's difficult, it's reasonable to think it's more effective. In reality, it's only harder 'cause you have less than optimal bicep recruitment, so you're losing something in the lift. A chinup recruits the lats optimally (moreso than pullups) as well as the biceps. This is why it is "easier". You can load it heavier and thusly make better progress.
The only thing I can see worth arguing is that the pullup works the lats as a humeral adductor, chinups a shoulder extensor. Big discrepancy? Probably not, but it might have a slightly different effect. If you're a bodybuilder profressionally, maybe toy with it. Or if you're looking for a challenge in terms of leverage. Otherwise, stick to chinups.
Okedoke. I'm not bodybuilding, just thinking in terms of functional strength. I'll experiment a bit longer just to make sure, but thanks for clearing up my point of view.
I don't see the logic behind doing pullups over wide grip chins. Sure you can use more weight, but this is because your biceps are doing more of the work during pullups. Why not isolate the lats more and make them do most of the work, as in the chins with pronated grip? I also like to do my rows with a pronated grip and false too, with my thumbs over top of the bar. Trying to take the biceps out of the movements as much as I can.
Guinness5.0
New member
I sometimes get quite sore in my pecs after a tough pullup session. They seem to act as stabilizers, esp. if you do 'em fast and try to keep yourself from swinging around. One thing I've always found odd is how the triceps act as stabilizers on rows.
Wild stuff, this body.
Wild stuff, this body.
silver_shadow
New member
yes this one comes up alot just like pulldowns/chins/pullups will enhance lat width and rows enhance lat thicknessAnthrax Invasion said:There's a large disparity about squats being bad for your knees and back. Well, there was anyway. Didn't follow that, did you?
People make the mistake of thinking that:
A) Wider grip = wider lats. This is inherently false. In fact, the closer grip will also have you working across a slightly longer ROM, which is likely better anyway.
B) Using an overhand grip is harder, so it must be better. That is to say that, since it's difficult, it's reasonable to think it's more effective. In reality, it's only harder 'cause you have less than optimal bicep recruitment, so you're losing something in the lift. A chinup recruits the lats optimally (moreso than pullups) as well as the biceps. This is why it is "easier". You can load it heavier and thusly make better progress.
The only thing I can see worth arguing is that the pullup works the lats as a humeral adductor, chinups a shoulder extensor. Big discrepancy? Probably not, but it might have a slightly different effect. If you're a bodybuilder profressionally, maybe toy with it. Or if you're looking for a challenge in terms of leverage. Otherwise, stick to chinups.
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Anthrax Invasion
Guest
kgarto said:
No problem, glad to help.
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Anthrax Invasion
Guest
DZLS said::wtf:
Just kidding - tool!
OK- so I tried supinated tonight, and got the whole "WHAT are you DOING, that's the pussy way" talk. Hands shoulder width, and strong flex with the back as I hit the top. To me, it felt like a lot less stress on my shoulders and every bit as good for my back. So is that just bullshit gym talk from an ignoramus, or is supinated really more for biceps like he tried to say?
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Anthrax Invasion
Guest
kgarto said:
It's bullshit gym talk. The supinated grip works the biceps more, yes. I said this. That doesn't mean it works the back any LESS. The biceps have an optimal line of pull. Best leverage, more muscles used optimally, more weight moved in the end - thusly, better progress.
duke of angels
New member
Anthrax Invasion said:
The chest is involved in the pull-up as a synergist... in fact certain lever machines list it usually.
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/LatissimusDorsi/AsCloseGripChinup.html
I advocate 6-12 reps so you can concentrate on getting your full range of motion with perfect technique and pulling the shoulder down at the bottom of the lift which is where most people cut the movement short. Granted anything suggested here will probably work to make you stronger... suppinated is the "prefered" grip for maximum strength because the biceps are a much better synergist in the movement. (Just think reverse grip curls compared to regular curls...) Do what is comfortable because there's about 20 different ways. I'd suggest never using a wide grip or behind the head ( a book by McRobert suggest not to... without reason though, researching that now...).
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Anthrax Invasion
Guest
duke of angels said:The chest is involved in the pull-up as a synergist... in fact certain lever machines list it usually.
Um, okay? And? The chest isn't going to do anything to take away from the fucking movement or compensate for weak back muscles.
Anthrax Invasion said:
I think this is in response to Guinness's post (#25).
Put a small box below the bar and assist your self a bit at the end of your reps. Do some negatives too.kgarto said:
Start adding weight to yourself to make up for the assist in terms of resistance.
Watch your hand width. Should be about 36" from thumb to thumb.
