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Prostate cancer from test. ALL MUST READ!

Realgains

New member
I am an Operating Room nurse. Recently a 27year old body builder had protate surgery where I work. The cancer was beyond the prostate gland, and this means that we is a dead man. He may have up to five years to live if he either gets castrated OR takes medication that eliminates all test in his body.(prostate cancer feeds on test)

This poor fellow started using AAS at the age of 21. He told me that he has been doing two cycles per year, with the base as Test, at no more than 600mg/week and usually only 500.

After the dude was asleep on the operating room table the surgeon started to speak his mind. He said that "anyone that does not take Finasteride when using the anabolic steroid Testosterone is an absolute fool." He said that if this fellow was well informed in the use of finasteride he probably would not be here. He said that the use of testoterone, even at smallish doses "hugely increases your chance of contracting prostate cancer" The effects of test on the prostate are like a time bomb waiting to go off in later years. He also said that he has treated many men in their thirties and forties for prostate cancer that used Testosterone.

Dudes, we talk about finasteride in regard to preventing hair loss but we don't even mention the prostate. Some of you younger dudes, in your late teens and early twenties, have the "it will never happen to me complex"..I hope this is wake up call for you.

I watched my casterated father in law die of prostse Cancer at the age of 50....believe me dudes it was a terrible process. I saw him shrink from a strong lean 200 pounds at 5'-11" to a emasiated 150! AND THE PAIN!!!

TAKE FINASTERIDE! To reduce DHT in the prostate. Hair loss we can see BUT the effect on the prostate we cannot see so we tend to not even think about it...such is human nature.

If any of you duded have the following symtoms go to your doctor right away.......frequent night time urination, and or frequent urinations that do not seem to emplty your bladder, and, of course, blood in the urine.

One last thing .....deca is not hard on the prostate....maybe we should be using more deca dudes.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Good Post. Did the surgeon mention dose? Would the 1-1.25mg anti-hairloss dose work, or would we need the BPH 5mg dose?
 
OK, there is very little validity here. First off the doctor saying "the anabolic steroid testosterone", statement. Well Testosterone is NOT an anabolic steroid. Second Prostate cancer is not something you contract. It's a genetic defect. BUT prostate enlargement is a different story. Currently there is a debate as to what couses it. In one camp the train of thought is that high levels of test are to blame, and on the other side doctors say it's the low test levels that are to blame. The reasoning being that low test levels in the blood stream cause the prostate to swell like a "sail" to catch more free test. Makes sence, espacially since most old men with swollen prostates can't exactly be said to have particularly high test levels. It's the prolonged low testosterone level that can actually cause these problems. Of course using steroids that have a very high rate of conversion to DHT is a bad thing as well. I remember how it was difficult to urinate when i did my first cycle of d-ball.
 
gwl9dta4 said:
OK, there is very little validity here. First off the doctor saying "the anabolic steroid testosterone.

Huh?:confused: ive always thought that testosterone is a steroid if injected,not the natural test.the doc says the anabolic steroid testosterone,he doesnt mean the natural occuring.
 
Eric Fustino said:
just curious would someone rate from worst to least steriods that are hard on the prostste?

The worst antagonizers of prostate hyperplasia would be the ones which either convert to DHT in high amounts,or the ones which start out with DHT as their base molecules.These include,but are not limited to:Testosterone,winstrol and primobolan...The gentlest of all anabolics in this regard would be the progestin-derivitive,nandrolone.Oxandrone also seems to be very benign in this regard.
 
Yup, and Animal got the balls to flame to oblivion for not agreing with him on that subject. For saying that DHT and AR-binding in prostate are responsable for prostate cancer, he accused me into spreading misinformation and strongly suggested to the Mods, to not let me post there anymore.
In his opinion, PR binding in prostate is a major factor contributing to prostate cancer.
---------------------------------------------

Sorry, I took it personally, and I should not...or should I ?

Anyway, Finasteride and Saw Palmetto are must for everyone who uses Test, even if he doesn't have to worry about hair.
Especially, if you use Arimidex or other aromatise inhibitors.
 
The surgeon did not mention a dose but next time I see him I will ask.

In a recent study in regard to MPB various doses of Finasteride were taken ....0.01mg, 0.05, 1, and 5mg . The study measused concentrations of scalp skin and serum dihydrotestosteron and showed no difference in results for the 0.05 to 5mg doses BUT that 0.01 was not enough. You can read this study by going to www.minoxidil.com and clicking onto Finasteride. Bill Robertys recommends this web site (he has no affiliation)

Bill ("The Guru") Roberts, from Meso-rx.com, recommends finasteride with test and suggests a dose of 5mg when using a gram and 2.5mg when using 500 mg of test.
 
Rebelrocker said:


Huh?:confused: ive always thought that testosterone is a steroid if injected,not the natural test.the doc says the anabolic steroid testosterone,he doesnt mean the natural occuring.


Well the book definition of an anabolic steroid is basically a testosterone which has it's androgenic component lowered so that it's more anabolic then androgenic. Deca durabolin is a good example of a classic anabolic steroid. Moderate androgenic activity and high anabolic anabilism.
 
gwl9dta4....Testosterone injected is considered an anabolic steriod in the medical field.
DHT is the culprit dude not test per say.....although prostae cancer feeds on test. High serum DHT results ALWAYS in high prostate DHT concentrations and High DHT concentrations are known by all in the medical field to cause prostse cancer.

Yes there is a very strong family or genetic factor but prostate cancer often does occur with no familial traits
 
Why would the surgeon say that anyone that uses testosterone without finasteride is a fool? Why would he not say that anyone that uses exogenous testosterone is a fool? And how can this statement be limited to testosterone, rather than anabolics in general.

If testosterone truly does or can cause prostate cancer, then finasteride, while it may reduce risk, will not eliminate it.
 
Realgains said:
gwl9dta4....Testosterone injected is considered an anabolic steriod in the medical field.
DHT is the culprit dude not test per say.....although prostae cancer feeds on test. High serum DHT results ALWAYS in high prostate DHT concentrations and High DHT concentrations are known by all in the medical field to cause prostse cancer.

Yes there is a very strong family or genetic factor but prostate cancer often does occur with no familial traits


I believe what you are saying but i have read many studies in regards to various compounds eliciting anabolic responces and the doctors in the studyies always make separate refferences to anabolic steroids and testosterone. And chemically they are quite different as well.

Testosterone and estrogens are the base hormones, and anabolics are the modified forms of either one.

Please correct me if i am wrong. Need to learn sometime.



Sincerely.
 
AND benign prostate hyperplasia often converts to prostate cancer.
So obviously we do not want benign hypertrophy....take the finasteride!
 
this story is a bunch of crap. testosterone is causing prostate growth? b u l l s h i t ! please tell me one thing: why do young men who produce lots of test do not get prostate problems while older men whose test production has dwindled down do get prostate problems?

Testoman
 
Dudes there is a strong genetic predisposition for most cancers BUT it is a proven fact that you can still get ANY cancer without this predisposition......just like you can get heart disease with NO genetic factors envolved.

And Stan o Zol.... just because the doc didn't say Anabolic Steroids in general, doesn't mean that he is not aware that other roids also raise DHT levels in the prostate. It just so happens that this poor soul with the cancer used test as a base always.....and we were talking about how test converts to DHT at the time of his statement.
 
I just don't see how we can limit this statement to testosterone. I think it gives everyone a false sense of security. All anabolic steroids bind to the androgen receptor...period (albeit, some with greater affinity than others). Not just DHT.
 
HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex said:


The worst antagonizers of prostate hyperplasia would be the ones which either convert to DHT in high amounts,or the ones which start out with DHT as their base molecules.These include,but are not limited to:Testosterone,winstrol and primobolan...The gentlest of all anabolics in this regard would be the progestin-derivitive,nandrolone.Oxandrone also seems to be very benign in this regard.

Where do you find information like the info. above?? You always seems to have really detailed explainations for things and I was wondering if the information that you have is accessable to me or any other bro on the board??

barnes3
 
DHT has the strongest binding affinity to AR. A way stronger then other steroids. Also, in different steroids, binding affinity to AR is target dependent in different organs. DHT has strongest binding to AR in prostate and scalp, so this particular steroid causes most trouble in those organs.
 
Testoman this is not crap!

DHT causes protate hypertrophy and not test in itself. We want to avoid hypertrophy as it often converts to cancer.

Many in the medical field think that a lot a men are walking around with a tiny amount of prostate cancer that grows very very slowly. These men end up dying of other causes,like heart disease, before the cancer grows enough to kill them. BUT IF YOU FEED THE CANCER WITH TEST IT WILL GROW LIKE MAD!

Prostse cancer grows slowly, especially in the older man, partly because of reduced serum testosterone. Prostate cancer grows quicker in the younger man because he has more test in his system. Now if you feed the cancer extra test through injection it will grow very quickly indeed.

The best treatment for slowing prostate cancer, that has left the prostate itself, is to castrate or give drugs that inhibit test production.

Older men have a weaker immune system and that is why we see more older people with cancer.

Older men have more hypertrophy than young men...this is true...but this is because DHT builds up over years and the affects of DHT are not seen right away just like a man doesn't go bald over night.

An example of a young man with prostate hypertrophy?.....take a look a gwl9dta4 statement above...while he was on D-bol!
I am not saying that he has it now but he did while on d-bol and that is not a good thing.
 
Huckleberry Finnaplex.....I may be mistaken but does finasteride only reduce DHT from test, and not the other DHT converting roids?
 
I find this topic very helpful not that I really know what you guys are writing about. I have two Uncles who had prostate trouble and one did for sure have cancer and surgery to remove it etc. He onced used Steroids although I dont know which ones but he was on steroids for Asthma of all things. Im sure it was Test or maybe some orals but never really asked. He lived through it but its scarey because the Doctors put him on steroids only to have problems later. Everybody like to blame the drug but I agree there has to be some Genetic dispostition here. I hope I can incorporate some preventative measures for myself since it was in the family.
 
this is scaring the shit outta me.... guess i have add finastride to my cycle now..... even though i have no baldness or any kind of cancer in my family... is this what it has to come down to?
 
Realgains said:
Huckleberry Finnaplex.....I may be mistaken but does finasteride only reduce DHT from test, and not the other DHT converting roids?

I may be mistaken,as I have not researched it thoroughly,but I believe Finasteride only inhibits 5 alpha-reductase from enzymatically converting substances into DHT.I'm not sure it would be effective against compounds who are ALREADY DHT,without having to go through this enzymatic conversion.
 
From the mouth of Guru Bill Roberts from Meso-rx.com

"A 5AR inhibitor(Finasteride) is recommended in cases where test is being used and the individual is particularily concerned about the prostate"

I think those concerned about our prostate includes all of us!
 
BILL ROBERTS... :p

Progesterone receptor expression in human prostate cancer: correlation with tumor progression.

Bonkhoff H, Fixemer T, Hunsicker I, Remberger K.

Institute of Pathology, University of the Saarland, Homburg/Saar, Germany. [email protected]

BACKGROUND: The recent discovery of the classical estrogen receptor alpha (ERalpha) in metastatic and recurrent prostatic adenocarcinoma suggests that estrogens are implicated in prostate cancer progression. METHODS: To get more insight into estrogen signaling in prostate cancer tissue, the current study has examined the immunoprofile of the estrogen-inducible progesterone receptor (PR), and evaluated its relation to ERalpha gene expression. RESULTS: In primary tumors, the PR was detectable in 36% of primary Gleason grade 3 (5 of 14 cases), 33% of primary Gleason grade 4 (5 of 15 cases), and in 58% of primary Gleason grade 5 tumors (7 of 12 cases). None of the 41 primary tumors investigated revealed significant PR expression in more than 50% of tumor cells. Conversely, moderate to strong receptor expression was observed in 60% of metastatic lesions (9 of 15 cases), and in 54% of androgen-insensitive tumors (38 of 71 cases). Irrespective of grades and stages, the presence of the PR was invariably associated with high steady state levels of ERalpha mRNA, whereas the ERalpha protein was undetectable by immunohistochemistry (IHC) in a significant number of cases (58 of 97 cases). CONCLUSIONS: The progressive emergence of the PR during tumor progression obviously reflects the ability of metastatic and androgen-insensitive tumors to use estrogens through a ERalpha-mediated pathway. The present data provide a theoretical background for studying the efficiency of antiestrogens and antigestagens in the medical treatment of advanced prostate cancer. Copyright 2001 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

:p
 
LESS CERTAIN INFO HERE.. BUT STILL HELPFUL

Allelic variants of aromatase and the androgen and estrogen receptors: toward a multigenic model of prostate cancer risk.

Modugno F, Weissfeld JL, Trump DL, Zmuda JM, Shea P, Cauley JA, Ferrell RE.

Department of Epidemiology, Graduate School of Public Health, University of Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh, PA 15261, USA. [email protected]

PURPOSE: The purpose of this study was to determine whether polymorphisms in the CAG repeat in exon 1 of the androgen receptor (AR), two intronic restriction sites in the estrogen receptor (ESR1 XbaI and ESR1 PvuII), and an Arg264Cy5 substitution in the aromatase gene (CYP19) contribute to prostate cancer risk. EXPERIMENTAL DESIGN: A case-control study was performed with 88 Caucasian prostate cancer patients and 241 Caucasian male controls. Logistic regression models were used to assess individual and joint contributions of genotypes to prostate cancer risk. RESULTS: For single polymorphisms, only the AR repeat number was significantly related to increased prostate cancer risk [age- and body mass index (BMI)-adjusted odds ratio (OR), 1.14; 95% confidence interval (CI), 1.04-1.25], suggesting a 14% increase in risk for each missing CAG repeat. When subjects were classified as either long (> or =23 AR CAG repeats) or short (<23 repeats) carriers, a significant increase in risk was also observed (age- and BMI-adjusted OR, 1.75; 95% CI, 1.05-2.95; P = 0.04). The aromatase C/T was associated with an increase in risk of borderline significance (age- and BMI-adjusted OR, 2.50; 95% CI, 0.99-6.28). When examining the effects of two polymorphisms on prostate cancer risk, homozygosity for the ESR1 XbaI restriction site together with a longer AR was more frequent among controls (32%) than cases (18%; age- and BMI-adjusted OR, 0.39; 95% CI, 0.19-0.78). The aromatase C/C genotype together with a longer AR was also more frequent among controls (55%) than cases (41%; age- and BMI-adjusted OR, 0.51; 95% CI, 0.30-0.89). CONCLUSIONS: Estrogen and aromatase may play a role in prostate cancer. A multigenic model of prostate cancer susceptibility is also supported.
 
Macrophage69alpha....really? I would like to hear more about estradiol and prostate cancer. I have never heard such a thing but I have lots to learn bro.

We should all take an estrogen inhibitor like Cytadren or Arimidex too then
 
Dudes doesn't all this make a strong case for DECA. Deca doesn't convert to estrogen or DHT!! Well a small convertion to estrogen does exist.
 
FINASTERIDE is an OK drug... and a reduction of DHT is helpful in many areas.. with the prostate it does help with BPH and may also help reduce risk of MPH(cancer) and MPB(hairloss).


however use of finasteride can ALSO increase risk of GYNO.. DHT has been shown to reduce ER stimulation in breast tissue... I will have to look for the study..

though even the insert warns that finasteride use can cause gyno.


its ok to use.. you just dont want too much..

and an aromatase inhibitor is ESSENTIAL for any aromatic cycle... men dont need more estrogen EVER...(there are a few caveats to this but not any that are relevant to 99+% of the population)

peace
 
Definately anti-estrogens should play very important role into preventing cancer, simply because of decreasing IGF-1 level.
 
i dont ever get gyno so iam not worried about gyno too much..so if finasterideis not the best what would be better?...oh yea marco you got pm
 
HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex said:


I may be mistaken,as I have not researched it thoroughly,but I believe Finasteride only inhibits 5 alpha-reductase from enzymatically converting substances into DHT.I'm not sure it would be effective against compounds who are ALREADY DHT,without having to go through this enzymatic conversion.

No, it would not be effective against compounds that are already DHT.
 
Good stuff Macrophage69alpha...........one question .......... Is test the only one that converts to DHT through the enzyme 5alpha reductase? If so then finasteride will only reduce DHT levels with test.

I am certain it has no effect with d-bol, primo and winny.
 
panerai said:
DHT has the strongest binding affinity to AR. A way stronger then other steroids. Also, in different steroids, binding affinity to AR is target dependent in different organs. DHT has strongest binding to AR in prostate and scalp, so this particular steroid causes most trouble in those organs.

Actually, nandrolone has a stronger binding affinity than even DHT. However, in the prostate, most of the nandrolone will be converted via 5AR into a less harmful metabolite (if finasteride is not used).
 
so its less harmful if you dont use finasteride with deca?...and so notthing can help when on primo right its my best roid..600+mgs a week and i blow up
 
While I have to agree with Macro, that Estrogen can play its part in promoting prostate cancer, it's still modulated, in most cases through AR, and role of DHT can't be underestimated.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A mechanism for androgen receptor-mediated prostate cancer recurrence after androgen deprivation therapy.
Cancer Res 2001 Jun 1;61(11):4315-9 (ISSN: 0008-5472)
Gregory CW; He B; Johnson RT; Ford OH; Mohler JL; French FS; Wilson EM [Find other articles with these Authors]
Laboratory for Reproductive Biology, Department of Pediatrics, Lineberger Comprehensive Cancer Center, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, NC 27599, USA.
The development and growth of prostate cancer depends on the androgen receptor and its high-affinity binding of dihydrotestosterone, which derives from testosterone. Most prostate tumors regress after therapy to prevent testosterone production by the testes, but the tumors eventually recur and cause death. A critical question is whether the androgen receptor mediates recurrent tumor growth after androgen deprivation therapy. Here we report that a majority of recurrent prostate cancers express high levels of the androgen receptor and two nuclear receptor coactivators, transcriptional intermediary factor 2 and @#%$ receptor coactivator 1. Overexpression of these coactivators increases androgen receptor transactivation at physiological concentrations of adrenal androgen. Furthermore, we provide a molecular basis for this activation and suggest a general mechanism for recurrent prostate cancer growth.


Androgen receptor expression in prostate cancer lymph node metastases is predictive of outcome after surgery.
J Urol 1999 Apr;161(4):1233-7 (ISSN: 0022-5347)
Sweat SD; Pacelli A; Bergstralh EJ; Slezak JM; Cheng L; Bostwick DG [Find other articles with these Authors]
Department of Laboratory Medicine and Pathology, Mayo Clinic and Mayo Foundation, Rochester, Minnesota 55905, USA.
PURPOSE: Androgens mediate the growth of prostate cancer cells. The predictive value of androgen receptor immunostaining in patient outcome is controversial. We studied the expression of androgen receptors in a large series of patients with node positive cancer, and correlated the results with clinical progression and survival. MATERIALS AND METHODS: We evaluated 197 patients with a mean age of 65.5 years who had node positive adenocarcinoma, and who underwent bilateral pelvic lymphadenectomy and/or radical prostatectomy at our clinic between 1987 and 1992. Mean followup was 6.3 years. Immunohistochemical studies were performed using an antihuman androgen receptor monoclonal antibody. In each case 100 nuclei were counted from 3 separate areas (total 300 nuclei per diagnostic category) of benign epithelium, cancer and lymph node metastases. Mean androgen receptor expression was determined from the mean of the individual cases. The intensity of immunoreactivity was evaluated on a scale of 0-no staining to 3-strong staining. We assessed the correlation of androgen receptor immunoreactivity, deoxyribonucleic acid ploidy, Gleason score and preoperative serum prostate specific antigen (PSA) with clinical progression, all cause survival and cancer specific survival using the Cox proportional hazards model. Clinical progression was defined as a positive bone scan. RESULTS: There was heterogeneous staining in the majority of cells in benign and malignant prostatic epithelium. The mean number of immunoreactive nuclei was similar in all groups (56, 53 and 56% of benign epithelium, cancer and lymph node metastases, respectively). Pairwise comparisons revealed that the only significant difference was between benign epithelium and cancer (p = 0.001) with greater immunoreactivity in benign epithelium. Intensity was lower in benign epithelium than in cancer and lymph nodes (p <0.05). Androgen receptor expression in lymph node metastases was associated with all cause and cancer specific survival on univariate analysis (p = 0.03 and 0.04, respectively). The 7-year cause specific survival was 98, 94 and 86% in patients with 51 to 69, less than 50 and greater than 70% androgen receptor expression in lymph node metastases, respectively (p <0.05). The association of androgen receptor expression in lymph node metastases was significant on multivariate analysis for cancer specific survival (p = 0.021) but not all cause survival (p = 0.16) after controlling for Gleason score, deoxyribonucleic acid ploidy and preoperative PSA. Androgen receptor immunoreactivity in lymph nodes was not a significant univariate or multivariate predictor of clinical progression, while androgen receptor expression in the primary cancer was not predictive of clinical progression or survival (p >0.05). CONCLUSIONS: Androgen receptor expression was similar in benign epithelium, primary cancer and lymph node metastases with approximately half of the epithelial cell nuclei staining. Androgen receptor immunoreactivity in lymph node metastases was predictive of cancer specific but not all cause survival in univariate and multivariate models. Gleason score was the strongest predictor of all cause survival in this cohort of patients. Our results indicate that it may be clinically useful to determine lymph node androgen receptor expression in men with advanced prostate cancer when combined with Gleason score and PSA.

Functional analysis of androgen receptor N-terminal and ligand binding domain interacting coregulators in prostate cancer.
J Formos Med Assoc (China 2000 Dec;99(12):885-94 (ISSN: 0929-6646)
Yeh S; Sampson ER; Lee DK; Kim E; Hsu CL; Chen YL; Chang HC; Altuwaijri S; Huang KE; Chang C [Find other articles with these Authors]
George Whipple Laboratory for Cancer Research, Departments of Pathology, Urology, Radiation Oncology, and Cancer Center, University of Rochester, Rochester, NY 14642, USA.
Several new androgen receptor (AR) coregulators, including ARA70, ARA55, ARA54, ARA160 and ARA24, associated with the N-terminal or the ligand-binding domain (LBD) of AR, have been identified by our group. We first identified the AR-LBD coregulators ARA70, ARA55, and ARA54. Our previous reports suggest that ARA70 can enhance the androgenic activity of 17 beta-estradiol (E2) and antiandrogens toward AR. It is of interest to compare and determine if the specificity of sex hormones and antiandrogens can be modulated by different coregulators. Our results indicate that, ARA70 is the best coregulator for increasing the androgenic activity of E2. Only ARA70 and ARA55 were able to significantly increase the androgenic activity of hydroxyflutamide, the active metabolite of a widely-used antiandrogen for the treatment of prostate cancer. Furthermore, our results suggest that among the LBD coregulators, ARA70 has a relatively high specificity for AR in the human prostate cancer cell line DU145. Together, our data suggest that the androgenic activity of some sex hormones and antiandrogens can be modulated by selective AR coactivators. In addition to the AR-LBD associated proteins, ARA24 and ARA160 have been identified as AR coregulators, interacting with the AR N-terminal instead of the LBD. Functional analysis revealed that the AR N-terminal coregulator ARA160 could cooperate with the AR LBD-associated coregulator ARA70. Our data indicate that ARA24 could also interact with AR, and that this binding is decreased by an expanding poly-glutamine (Q) length within AR. The length of the poly-Q stretch in the AR N-terminal domain is inversely correlated with the transcriptional activity of AR. Our data suggest that optimal AR transactivation may require interaction of AR with AR coregulators. The identification of factors or peptides that can interrupt androgen-mediated AR-ARA interactions may be useful in the development of better antiandrogens for treating androgen-related diseases, such as prostate cancer.
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It is also important to note that there are two isozymes of 5-alpha reductase. Finsasteride only inhibits 5AR type II. Therefore, conversion to DHT will still take place, though at a lesser rate (about a 70% reduction).
 
Reading those abstracts that panerai posted are more along the lines of what I understood about prostate cancer and androgens...that they facilitate the growth of existing tumours, not cause them explicitly.
 
Most likely, it's a synergism between DHT and oestradiol that most effectively promote growth of tumor cell in prostate.
DHT, by itself, will only make your penis grow...

Saw Palmetto suppose to be able to inhibit, to some degree 5AR type I, as well as other ways, but more studies are needed to be done, to state it as a fact.
 
I agree with you, most of the men are predisposed genetically to get prostate cancer, and the only reason, not all of us get it, is because a lot died for other reasons before prostate cancer happens. Still, statistics are not very favorable.
We all are going to die anyway, right? So, even if we all are going to get prostate cancer, it doesn't mean, that by preventing it effectively for years we can't postpone the occurence before dying from other causes.

And that would be the same as never getting it, even if we are genetically predisposed to it.
It's all about working around risk factors and AAS are one of those.
 
does anyone know if the blood test for prostate cancer (prostate specific antigen or PSA) is the best indicator of prostate problems? i pee a lot throughout the night, etc, but my psa is totally normal.
 
PSA is the blood test #1. Elevated means that you have either benign hypertrophy or cancer. If your PSA is normal you have nothing to worry about bro.
 
thanks for the posts macro... that helps alot!

barnes3
 
i was taking a look at Super saw palmetto at http://www.lef.org/prod_desc/item00428.html


. Anyone Think a high dosage would produce the same results as finastride? Saw plametto seems to do the exact same thing as it.

____________________
Prevention and Treatment of Benign Prostate Enlargement
Enlargement of the prostate gland occurs in most men with advancing age and is accompanied by reduced urinary flow and increased residual urine volume. Hormonal imbalances have previously been blamed for age related prostate disorders, but other factors have been identified as causes of the benign proliferation of prostate cells (BPH) and accompanying urinary impairment caused by this condition. Men with severe BPH often use a combination of saw palmetto and pygeum to improve urine flow and bladder voiding. These men usually wake up less frequently at night to urinate.

Published scientific literature, along with ten years of reports from members of the Life Extension Foundation, show that saw palmetto extract is effective in alleviating symptoms of BPH in most men. Pygeum extract has been shown to specifically inhibit prostate cell proliferation by blocking the binding of dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and other growth factors to prostate cell membranes. Pygeum has anti-edema effects that shrink the prostate gland significantly. Recent studies show it also inhibits the proliferation of prostate cells, by interfering with the activity of the enzyme kinase C that is needed by all rapidly growing benign and malignant cells.

Although more than 80% of men report improvement after using saw palmetto and/or pygeum extracts, some prostate enlargement often remains that continues to interfere with urinary flow and bladder evacuation. Urtica dioica, an herbal extract of nettle root that has been used in Germany for more than a decade to treat BPH, has been shown to reduce symptoms by 86% after 3 months of use. Learning of these studies, researchers at St. Luke’s/Roosevelt Hospital in New York conducted a study to discover the mechanism by which standardized nettle root extract relieves the symptoms of BPH. In their study, published in 1995, these scientists showed Urtica dioica inhibits the binding of a testosterone-related protein to receptor sites on prostate cell membranes. In January 1998, the Foundation made nettle root extract available in one formula combined with saw palmetto and pygeum. Saw palmetto, pygeum and Urtica dioica are approved drugs in Germany for the treatment of BPH.

Saw palmetto has been shown to work by inhibiting the enzyme (5-alpha reductase) in the prostate gland that converts testosterone to DHT. New studies show saw palmetto also reduces smooth muscle contraction, relaxing the bladder and sphincter muscles that cause urinary urgency. Super Saw Palmetto contains the highly effective super-critical extract from saw palmetto.

For complete information about the treatment of early and late stage prostate cancer and BPH, see the Life Extension Foundation’s newest book, Disease Prevention and Treatment, 3rd edition.
 
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Dudes high DHT levels are still considered by most Urologists to be one cause of prostate Cancer and not just something that makes it worse once you've got it!

Ask a Urologist why he gives Finasteride to those with benign prostatic hypertrophy. He gives it so the patients can pee, BUT more importantly he orders it to inhibit DHT and reduce the benign hypertrophy which often converts to CANCER!!!
 
Stan O'Zolol said:


Actually, nandrolone has a stronger binding affinity than even DHT. However, in the prostate, most of the nandrolone will be converted via 5AR into a less harmful metabolite (if finasteride is not used).

No way! Nandrolone's binding affinity to AR in prostate is about the same as Testosteron, that's why after 5-alpha reduction Test is becoming approx 3 times stronger DHT and Nandrolone approx 3 times weaker DHN.
If, to begin with, Nandrolone had as strong binding affinity as DHT, how much of reduction would be needed to reduce it to so much less androgenic metabolite?

BTW, Trenbolone has approx same binding affinity to AR as DHT.
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Different patterns of metabolism determine the relative anabolic activity of 19-norandrogens.

J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol 1995 Jun;53(1-6):253-7 (ISSN: 0960-0760)

Sundaram K; Kumar N; Monder C; Bardin CW [Find other articles with these Authors]
Center for Biomedical Research, Population Council, New York, NY 10021, USA.

Testosterone, the principal androgen secreted by Leydig cells, exerts a wide range of actions including growth of the male reproductive tract (androgenic effects) and growth of non-reproductive tissues such as muscle, kidney, liver, and salivary gland (anabolic effects). As androgenic steroids were discovered some were found to have relatively more anabolic than androgenic activity. The results reviewed in this report suggest that these differences result, in part, from the differential metabolism of the steroids in individual tissues and the varied activities of the individual metabolites. In the accessory sex organs (e.g. the prostate) testosterone is 5 alpha-reduced to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) which, due to its higher affinity for androgen receptors (AR), amplifies the action of testosterone. In contrast, when 19-nortestosterone (NT) is 5 alpha-reduced, its affinity for AR decreases, resulting in a decrease in its androgenic potency. However, their anabolic potency remains unchanged since significant 5 alpha-reduction of the steroids does not occur in the muscle. 7 alpha-methyl-19-nortestosterone (MENT) does not get 5 alpha-reduced due to steric hindrance from the 7 alpha-methyl group. Therefore, the androgenic potency of MENT is not amplified as happens with testosterone. These metabolic differences are responsible for the increased anabolic activity of NT and MENT compared to testosterone. Part of the biological effects of testosterone are mediated by its aromatization to estrogens. The fact that MENT is also aromatized to 7 alpha-methyl estradiol, a potent estrogen, in vitro by human placental and rat ovarian aromatase suggests that some of the anabolic actions of MENT may be mediated by this estrogen.
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So, is it a good idea to use Finasterid 1mg EOD for preventetive reasons in cyccle of Test or should we use ED as it's prescribed?
 
If you're worried about prostate cancer and juice, then have a PSA and digital exam done every 6-12 months. Don't count on Saw Palmetto or Proscar to save your ass.

Know what's going on and catch it early if it happens. However, if there were a clear link between juicing and early prostate cancer, we'd have seen the numbers by now and thus far, it is still pretty rare.

W6
 
why have i never seen finasteride on any price list from any of my dozen sources?does it have a generic name?
 
eric88 said:
why have i never seen finasteride on any price list from any of my dozen sources?does it have a generic name?

finasteride is the generic name.....
brand name is propecia/proscar
 
So what are the chances of actually getting prostate cancer from using test once or twice a year?

And is saw palmetto helpful in anyway?
 
wilson6 said:
If you're worried about prostate cancer and juice, then have a PSA and digital exam done every 6-12 months. Don't count on Saw Palmetto or Proscar to save your ass.

Know what's going on and catch it early if it happens. However, if there were a clear link between juicing and early prostate cancer, we'd have seen the numbers by now and thus far, it is still pretty rare.

W6

You nailed it right there!
 
Wilson 6 good point however, the dudes of the past used mainly Deca and d-bol and GH...the dudes that are 50 or so now, like Arnold.
What about the dudes of the past 15 years that have used big time test....??? Test is the culprit cause 5 alpha converts it to DHT
 
Dudes NEVER use Finasteride with DECA!!!!! Your hair will fall out in handfulls......Finasteride is only needed with TEST ....Deca does not convert to DHT!

Lets get China fellow to start producing that progesterone blocker now so we can really take advantage of DECA!
 
macrophage69alpha said:

BACKGROUND: The recent discovery of the classical estrogen receptor alpha (ERalpha) in metastatic and recurrent prostatic adenocarcinoma suggests that estrogens are implicated in prostate cancer progression.
:p

This touches on a very important point. Although DHT is classically linked to BPH, due to the fact that it is the active androgen in prostate, estrogen is tied to this disease as well. As the model shows, neither androgens or estrogens alone trigger BPH. They play synergystic roles here. It has therefore been suggested that DHT may even be a better form of androgen replacement than testosterone for someone at risk for BPH.

With finasteride and T, you only lower androgen action in the prostate, not diminish it, as T is still active. However you can effectively eliminate estrogen action by supplementing an non-aromatizeable androgen like DHT. DHT can actually PREVENT BPH under the right conditions.


-Bill Llewellyn
 
Realgains,

The bottom line is still early detection. Along with basic blood work and LFT's, a PSA and digital exam is still the best prevention for guys juicing. We can argue about DHT, T, E and P, but the bottom line is get checked yearly, even if you're under 40. Just because you're blocking everything doesn't mean anything. There are case reports of severely hypogonadal (low T and E) guys getting prostate cancer. Shit happens.

W6
 
gwl9dta4 said:
Second Prostate cancer is not something you contract. It's a genetic defect.

In the United States and Europe, men stand a one-in-five chance of developing prostate cancer. It is the most common malignancy among men and in the US alone it is the cause of more than 40,000 deaths annually.

1 in 5 men get prostate cancer. It is believed to be genetic in the sense that relatives do seem more likely to get the disease..
However, it could occur due to steroid use in men whose family members have never suffered the disease...
 
Realgains said:
Dudes there is a strong genetic predisposition for most cancers BUT it is a proven fact that you can still get ANY cancer without this predisposition......just like you can get heart disease with NO genetic factors envolved.

And Stan o Zol.... just because the doc didn't say Anabolic Steroids in general, doesn't mean that he is not aware that other roids also raise DHT levels in the prostate. It just so happens that this poor soul with the cancer used test as a base always.....and we were talking about how test converts to DHT at the time of his statement.

He said it better...
 
Saw Palmetto

OVERVIEW
Background

Botanical name: Serenoa repens

Saw Palmetto thrives in the Southeastern United States and the berries were consumed by the Seminole Indians. The berries contain an oil formed from lipid sterols and other fatty acids. Saw Palmetto allegedly reduces symptoms of benign prostatic hypertrophy (BPH). Although the standard pharmaceutical for BPH is Proscar, 30% of men who take Proscar report impotence and other disconcerting side effects1. While Saw Palmetto does not reduce the enlargement of the prostate gland, it reportedly alleviates symptoms associated with prostatic enlargement. The Proscar equivalent dosage of Saw Palmetto is 320 mg daily. Saw Palmetto has been reported to decrease the frequency of urination and retention of urine without the side effect of impotence.


from:

http://www.sph.uth.tmc.edu/utcam/therapies/sawpalmetto.htm
 
Why do I and many urologists "harp" about DHT....

FACT: Men born without the enzyme 5 Alpha reductase NEVER GET PROSTATE CANCER!!! We all know that 5 Alpha converts test to DHT!:p

And Yes high estrogen is thought to be a contributor too....so take the estogen inhibitor too!
 
Now I've always heard that you shouldn't take proscar or fina steride while taking deca ,so if one does a test & deca cycle how will the finasteride react in that situation??
 
Realgains said:
Why do I and many urologists "harp" about DHT....

FACT: Men born without the enzyme 5 Alpha reductase NEVER GET PROSTATE CANCER!!! We all know that 5 Alpha converts test to DHT!:p

And Yes high estrogen is thought to be a contributor too....so take the estogen inhibitor too!

I think you are missing my point a little.

Take a look at this reference.

Transdermal Dihydrotestosterone Treatment of "Andropause". Bruno de Lignieres. Ann Med 25 235-241, 1993. Here is a quote: "Early stages of prostatic hypertrophy require synergystic stimulation by both DHT and estradiol, and suppressing estradiol instead of DHT seems easier and better adapted to the specific situation of aged hypogonadic men. ...DHT may be considered an attractive alternative to testosterone for long-term treatment of andropause".

I'm just trying to point out that non-aromatizeable compounds like DHT may indeed be much safer than testosterone or other aromatizable androgens, or test plus finasteride for that matter.

Your focus on DHT alone as THE culprit in BPH reflects the general misunderstanding people have about this hormone. First androgen action in the prostate is key, NOT DHT SPECIFICALLY. Secondly, the uncommon genetic disorder you are referring to in which prostate size remains very small throughout adult life bears little relevance to a healthy older athlete using anabolic/androgenic steroid to promote muscle growth.

- Bill Llewellyn
 
FreakMonster said:
During a prostate exam does'nt the doctor stick his finger all the way up your ass?

Yes and it feels mighty weird. I have had three....

I have also had about 10 cystoscopy's (tube about 10mm shoved all ALL the way up the uretha and into the bladder (I had Bladder cancer twice)....
 
w_llewellyn said:


Correct, but the same potential is found in other (more anabolic) non-aromatizable steroids.

- Bill Llewellyn

Considering:

- huge difference in safe dosages (higher dosage=better results);
- multiple ways of promoting muscle growth;
- nice, even temporary effect on sex life;
- nice CNS stimulation;
- cost;
- availability;
- well develloped range of drugs, for side effects;

Test is THE BEST, but that's just mine and thousands others opinion, you don't have to agree...
 
panerai said:


Test is THE BEST, but that's just mine and thousands others opinion, you don't have to agree...

Are we reading the same thread? The discussion I was having involved the specific roles of DHT and estrogen in the promotion of benign prostatic hypertrophy (BPH) not "What is the best steroid?".

- Bill Llewellyn
 
I'm sorry, but I got an impression that you are the one who went off track of original subject, which is "Prostate cancer fromTest" meaning eventually, that we are discussing practical application of preventive meds for that particular steroid - Testosteron. But, now, rereading your post, I see, that I was wrong.
Again, sorry, if I misunderstood your post. So, you are suggesting that on a cycle of Test, supplementing with, let's say, Masteron, will prevent any problems with prostate in a future?
 
"- multiple ways of promoting muscle growth;
- nice, even temporary effect on sex life;
- nice CNS stimulation; "


Test is able to promote "growth" through multiple pathways because some of it converts to DHT and estrogen. Take proscar to prevent DHT and you lose a large amount of the CNS and sex-drive stimulation...completely suppress estrogen with armidex and you lose the increased leverage and "instant mass" from the estrogen bloat. When I factor in the cost of full suppression of these sides, and resultant loss of some of the effectiveness, a combo of non-aromatizing androgens (at least for me) is more effective and about the same cost. While test may be the best choice when used alone, intelligent stacking of other drugs can give the same multi-faceted approach to muscle growth.

One other note: not all pros use very high dose test as the base for their cycles. I know this for a fact first-hand. Yes alot of them do, but there are some top level guys out there who are not big fans of test.
 
panerai said:
So, you are suggesting that on a cycle of Test, supplementing with, let's say, Masteron, will prevent any problems with prostate in a future?

I was more taking a general look at steroids, prostate problems and the roles of DHT and Estradiol. Since both estrogenic and androgenic are needed to promote BPH, I thought it important to point out that 1) DHT is not an isolated culprit and 2) non-aromatizable compounds (when used exclusively) may carry a reduced risk over estrogenic ones.

To answer your question, Masteron alone instead of testosterone would logically carry far lower risk of BPH, despite the fact that it is a potent injectable DHT derrivative.

- Bill Llewellyn
 
GaryWary said:


Yes and it feels mighty weird. I have had three....

I have also had about 10 cystoscopy's (tube about 10mm shoved all ALL the way up the uretha and into the bladder (I had Bladder cancer twice)....

Ughhhh I hate when they stick the finger way up there.

I had it done once along time ago and I felt violated!!!!!
 
Hugh Gellatts,

You oversimplifying things, we still don't know a lot, and Test is Test.
Check out this study...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Testosterone at high concentrations interacts with the human androgen receptor similarly to dihydrotestosterone.
Endocrinology 1990 Feb;126(2):1165-72 (ISSN: 0013-7227)

Grino PB; Griffin JE; Wilson JD [Find other articles with these Authors]
Department of Internal Medicine, University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center, Dallas 75235-8857.

Testosterone and dihydrotestosterone are believed to exert their androgenic effects by interacting with a single intracellular receptor protein in androgen target tissues. During fetal life, however, testosterone mediates the virilization of the Wolffian ducts into the epididymis, vas deferens, and seminal vesicles, whereas the urogenital sinus and external genitalia require the in situ conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone to undergo male development. The reason why the signal provided by testosterone needs to be amplified in some androgen target tissues but not in others remains an enigma. To provide insight into the different actions of these androgens we studied their interaction with the human androgen receptor in fibroblasts cultured from the genital skin of a patient with 5 alpha-reductase deficiency. Dihydrotestosterone was formed in negligible amounts in these cells, and in some experiments the residual 5 alpha-reductase activity was further blocked with the 5 alpha-reductase inhibitor finasteride. Saturation analysis in fibroblast monolayers disclosed similar amounts of binding with testosterone and dihydrotestosterone, and the affinity of binding of dihydrotestosterone was, on the average, about 2-fold greater than that of testosterone. [3H]Testosterone also exhibited a 5-fold faster dissociation rate from the receptor than [3H]dihydrotestosterone. In thermolability experiments the [3H]testosterone-receptor complex displayed marked instability at 42 C with 2 nM [3H] testosterone, whereas with 20 nM [3H]testosterone, receptor stability was similar to that seen with [3H]dihydrotestosterone. In up-regulation experiments, 2 nM [3H]testosterone produced a 34% increase in specific androgen receptor binding after 24 h, whereas 20 nM [3H]testosterone produced an average increase of 64%. Our results suggest that the weaker androgenic potency of testosterone compared to that of dihydrotestosterone resides in its weaker interaction with the androgen receptor, most clearly demonstrable as an increase in the dissociation rate of testosterone from the receptor. When present in relatively high concentrations, however, testosterone overcomes this defect by mass action.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 400 WORDS).

--------------------------------------------
 
I am not saying that DHT is what causes the anabolic effect in muscle tissue, I am saying that DHT causes alot of the nervous system stimulation you get from test. When I have used test with proscar I got bigger but didn't get much stronger...without proscar I was alot more aggressive and made good strength gains. Of course the lack of DHT could be made up for by adding a steroid that does give good CNS stim, like winstrol or anavar. All I am saying is that by preventing the test from converting to DHT you are taking away one of its modes of action.
 
And what I'm saying is that Testosteron, not converted to DHT in high enough doses will produce same stimulatory effect on CNS, plus great anabolic effect.
So, even on high doses of aromatise inibitors, you still will get greater IGF-1 increase, and on high doses of Test + Finasteride/Saw Palmetto, you still will get better stimulation of CNS then from any other anabolics.
As for anabolic effect in muscles, forget it, it's beyong comparison...
 
DHT ...is it all BAD??

I think this article sums it up better than I could every try, so I will save my typing for later.



DHT, is it all BAD??




A considerable chunk of my work day is always spent answering people’s questions about prohormones and steroids. Of course, one of the biggest concerns people have is about estrogen and estrogen related side effects. Right behind that however are questions about DHT. It seems that people have the misconception that DHT is some evil androgen by product that serves no purpose in the body but to make our prostates blow up and our hair fall out.

The real situation is of course much more complex. DHT is one of those good guy / bad guy hormones that is sorely misunderstood. For many people, it is NOT something that you want to reduce or eliminate in the body. For some others though, keeping DHT levels under control is probably a prudent course of action. Knowing the facts about DHT will help you decide just which group you belong to.

Testosterone is a prohormone?

The main androgen secreted by the testes is of course testosterone. However, in most of the body, the androgenic signal is not carried through by testosterone. In these tissues, which include the brain (CNS), skin, genitals – practically everything but muscle – the active androgen is actually DHT. Testosterone in this case simply acts as a prohormone that is converted to the active androgen DHT by the action of the enzyme 5alpha reductase (5-AR).

5-AR is concentrated heavily in practically every androgen dependent area of the body except for skeletal muscle. This results in very little testosterone actually getting through to these parts of the body to bind to androgen receptors. Instead, it is quickly transformed into DHT, which then interacts with receptors.

This transformation serves a very important biological function in these tissues. You see, DHT is a much stronger androgen than testosterone – it binds about 3-5 times more strongly to the androgen receptor. If you took away 5-AR from these tissues and blocked the formation of DHT, then you would see some dramatic changes in physiology.

A good case in point is demonstrated in male pseudohermaphroditism due to congenital 5-AR deficiency. This is a relatively rare disorder, however it is actually quite common in the Dominican Republic. In this disorder, males are born with little or no 5-AR enzyme. They have ambiguous genitalia and are often raised as girls. When puberty occurs, their testosterone levels elevate normally although their DHT levels remain very low. Their musculature develops normally like that of other adults, however, they end up with little or no pubic / body hair and underdeveloped prostate and penis. Their libido and sexual function is often disrupted also.

Testosterone is the active androgen in muscle

Skeletal muscle is unique from other androgen dependent tissues in the body. It actually contains little or no 5-AR, so little or no DHT is actually formed in the muscle. In addition to this, any DHT that is formed, or that is already present in the blood and travels to the muscle, is quickly deactivated by an enzyme called 3alpha-hydroxysteroid reductase (3a-HSD).

So at least as far as muscle is concerned, testosterone is the primary active androgen. This is not to say that administering exogenous DHT is not without any anabolic effect. It actually does have some anabolic activity in the muscle, albeit significantly weaker than that of an equal amount of testosterone. This is due to its quick breakdown by 3a-HSD into the weak metabolite 5alpha-androstan-3a,17b-diol. If this enzyme were somehow blocked, it is likely that DHT would exhibit very potent anabolic effects on muscle.

It is important to understand that even though testosterone is the active androgen in muscle, and DHT exhibits relatively little direct anabolic effects on muscle in men, DHT is still very important for the full performance enhancement effects from testosterone. What I specifically mean here are the effects of DHT on the central nervous system, which lead to increased neurological efficiency (strength), and increased resistance to psychological and physical stress - not to mention optimal sexual function and libido.

I have heard several anecdotal reports of individuals who have stacked testosterone with proscar (a 5-AR inhibitor) and have noticed significantly reduced performance enhancement effects. What’s going on here? We know it couldn’t be due to the inhibition of the direct anabolic activity of testosterone on muscle anabolism. Most likely it is due to the reduction of androgenic effects in other parts of the body that contribute to the ergogenic effects, specifically the CNS, which is stimulated by androgens to increase neural output leading to greater strength and greater recoverability. Another possibility is a reduction in the production of androgen dependent liver growth factors (such as IGF-1), since DHT is an important androgen in the liver.

Anti – Estrogen effects of DHT

One important function of DHT in the body that does not get much discussion is its antagonism of estrogen. Some men that take proscar learn this the hard way – by developing a case of gynecomastia. By reducing DHT’s protection against estrogen in the body, these men have fallen victim to its most dreaded ramification – bitch tits!

How does DHT protect against estrogen? There are at least three ways that this likely occurs. First of all, DHT directly inhibits estrogens activity on tissues. It either does this by acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen-induced RNA transcription at a point subsequent to estrogen receptor binding.

Second of all, DHT and its metabolites have been shown to directly block the production of estrogens from androgens by inhibiting the activity of the aromatase enzyme. The studies done in breast tissue showed that DHT, androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are potent inhibitors of the formation of estrone from androstenedione. 5alpha-androstandione was shown to be the most potent, while androsterone was the least.

Lastly, DHT acts on the hypothalamus / pituitary to decrease the secretion of gonadotropins. By decreasing the secretion of gonadotropins you decrease the production of the raw materials for estrogen production – testosterone and androstenedione (DHT itself cannot aromatize into estrogens). This property of DHT comes into particular utility when it is administered exogenously, and this is to be discussed in further detail in the next section.

DHT, estrogen, and the prostate

When it comes to sex hormones, few things are as misunderstood by the general consumer as the relationship of the prostate to DHT. The inaccurate and overly simplistic attitude that DHT is responsible for prostate hypertrophy, and even prostate cancer predominates amongst most people.

The real situation is, of course, much more complex. One must understand that there are marked differences between healthy prostate growth (developmental growth), prostate growth due to BPH, and cancerous prostate growth.

The first period of prostate growth, deemed developmental growth, is connected to puberty and the testicular secretion of androgens. This takes the prostate from its prepubertal dormancy to the normal sized, healthy, and functional prostate gland of an adult. During the early and mid adult years the prostate stays at this stage, despite the constant high levels of androgens in the body. However, if androgens are blocked in the body then the adult prostate will shrink in size. This can occur by castration, or even by blockade of 5-AR (recall that DHT is the active androgen in the prostate).

Later in life, there is often a second stage of growth. This growth is deemed benign prostate hypertrophy (BPH) and this growth occurs in a wholly different hormonal environment than that of developmental growth. Evidence is mounting that the existence of a high estrogen / androgen ratio – a condition common in older men – is highly correlated to the development of BPH.

Experimental studies have shown the inability of androgens with saturated A rings (DHT related) to induce an initial condition of prostate hypertrophy. These compounds are non-aromatizable. Aromatizable androgens on the other hand, such as testosterone or androstenedione can induce hyperplasic modifications of the prostate of monkeys, but these effects are reversed by the addition of an aromatase inhibitor.

So apparently, estrogen is a causative factor in BPH or, probably more accurately, estrogen in the presence of a minimum, permissive amount of androgen.

None of this may come as news to many of you, but I bet that very few of you know that DHT can actually be used to treat BPH!! How can it do that? It basically does this by replacing the testosterone in the body, which then has the effect of reducing the amount of estrogen in the body. As I started to explain before, DHT is a strong androgen that will signal the pituitary to decrease the production of gonadotropins. The decrease in gonadotropins will then cause less testosterone to be produced which will in turn cause the estrogen levels to drop. The resulting change in the hormonal milieu (high DHT, low estrogen) then apparently results in a regression of BPH.

The clinical application of this theory is discussed in US patent 5,648,350 "Dihydrotestosterone for use in androgenotherapy". The following illustrates the results:

"In 27 subjects in which the plasma DHT level was controlled, so as to modulate the administered doses, said levels have been increased to 2.5 to 6 ng/ml. There resulted a decrease in gonadotrophy as well as in the plasma levels of testosterone which exceeded at least 1.5 ng/ml (from 0.5 to 1.4 according to the case); as to the estradiol plasma levels, these decreased by 50%.

Among this group of subjects, the volume of the prostate diminished significantly, as was evaluated by ultrasound and by PSA (Prostate Specific Antigen). The mean volume of the prostates was from 31.09.+-.16.31 grams before treatment and from 26.34.+-.12.72 grams after treatment, for a mean reduction of 15.4%, the treatment having a mean duration of 1.8 years with DHT (P=0.01)."

This kind of flies in the face of the traditional thinking concerning BPH now doesn’t it?

Conclusion

People have a natural tendency to classify things as either good or bad, with no gray areas. DHT (like estrogen) has recently been on everyone’s bad list, and is often considered to be a hormone that serves no function in the body except to cause harm. As you can see, this view is far from the truth. In my opinion, the widespread use of 5-AR inhibitors such as Proscar as a prophylactic agent for people that really don’t need it should be reconsidered. So give DHT a break. I now pronounce June "DHT Appreciation Month". Thank you.

by Pat Arnold
 
So apparently, estrogen is a causative factor in BPH or, probably more accurately, estrogen in the presence of a minimum, permissive amount of androgen.

Great post Mister X.

So staying on arimidex year round will help ensure a healthy prostate?
 
I work at the biggest cancer hospital in Brazil for 11 years and I must have seen more than 500 radical prostatectomys( sp?)an as much via transuretral. I have never seen a case as described above.I know it can happen, but I don't think at this point we can name a culprit, as knowledge in this matter is still insufficient. I'll consult with all urology surgeons I know and will get back on this.
 
i have already had a prostate infection, and let me tell you it wasnt fun,, i am doing a cycle now with only 550mg of test a wk but yes my doc told me that test does cause prostate problems as well as ephedrine
 
I may believe that some young kid got prostate cancer, but to pinpoint steroid use as the single causative factor is bullshit. This is another scare story without much to go on as far as facts. Currently there is conflicting data comming from various unversity medical centers, as to weather or not test is the actual bad guy in prostate cancer. In lab animals small amounts of test seem to encourge prostate growth, while mega doses seem to inhibit the cancer growth and in most cases shrink the tumors. As far as I'm concerned the jury is still out. I do use saw palmetto though for its anti imflamatory effects on the prostate.:D
 
panerai said:


No way! Nandrolone's binding affinity to AR in prostate is about the same as Testosteron, that's why after 5-alpha reduction Test is becoming approx 3 times stronger DHT and Nandrolone approx 3 times weaker DHN.
If, to begin with, Nandrolone had as strong binding affinity as DHT, how much of reduction would be needed to reduce it to so much less androgenic metabolite?



Way! I don't understand what you're getting at here. You more or less have reiterated my statement.
 
Are any of these substances actually mutagenic? It takes some form of mutation (missense, frameshift, nonsense) in a few different areas to make a cell line carcinogenic, so where does the mutation come in to play?
As for the patient disscused in the begining, hes far from dead. I fuckin hate dumbass oncologists who say "terminal". You dont beat cancer without trying and no cancer is 100% "terminal". Try everytning in (and out of) the book to beat it. Cisplatin, Gimcidabine, various statin drugs, COX2 inhibitors, gamaglobulin, and interlukins,.......add em up, takem, see what happens, you have nothing to loose.
 
liftsiron.....true, there is conflicting data. This does not change the fact that many researchers strongly believe that DHT is a bad guy.

All the urologists that I work with say that elevated DHT and elevated estrogen levels are likely contributors to the developement and progression of prostate cancer.

Facts.....Men born without the enzyme 5 Alpha Reductase NEVER get prostae Cancer. Funny, five alpha converts test to DHT!

Fact....Test will make cancer cells that are in the prostate GROW LIKE HELL, and that is why I do at least one castration per week in the Operating Room dudes.... PROSTATE CANCER FEEDS ON TEST!!

We are not absolutely sure that high test levels can cause it, but if you have even a few cancer cells in the prostate(not that uncommon dudes) then it will grow well with normal test levels and grow like HELL with even slightly above average levels of 7mg per day! You better hope like hell that your immune system is working at 100% then.

All the urologists that I have talked to said men that take extra test are elevating DHT and estrogen levels and are playing with fire.......one said"who knows what will happen to them when they get a little older, say 50 or 60 or even 40!

One of the Urologists that I work with has operated on several men in their early forties and fifties, and one guy 34, that used roids in their twenties and thirties.
 
Realgains, lol, you are getting very emotional.......
Would you provide some scientific data, or at least some studies to back up your statements?
And, please, keep what "you operated, or what you talked to fellow surgeons, or whoever you talk to..." to yourself, unless, you are willing to present your name, credentials, and the same with people who you talked to...

You are walking thin line between ok and badly flamed.
 
All I am doing is telling you what was told to me....I am not getting emotional bro.
And why on earth would I keep what was told to me in good faith to myself....I would be an ass to do that bro!
 
To sum it all up dudes.... we all know that elevated test and DHT is not really a good thing for the scalp or prostate. Really now...it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure that one out. So take care dudes and take the Finasteride until we are more certain of things. And while you're at it inhibit that estrogen a little too.

Sincerely,
Realgains
 
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