Post Affirmative Action Question

[joack]

Assume that AA has been abolished in this country.

Question:

1. What would you DO if you learned that businesses, government agencies and schools had informal policies/practices that discriminated against non-whites?

2. If you're white, what would you have to gain by saying anything?

3. Would any of you become "angry" because people have been
wronged or would you not care, turn & look the other way because you personally haven't been wronged?

 

[***]

i would try to correct the wrong not because it would benefit me, but because i don't like seeing any portion of our society wronged.

i would not try to correct this wrong by reintroducing affirmative action though. AA is a lot more than just correcting the wrong. it gives preferencial treatment to one portion of our population and leads to more racial tension.

correcting descrimination would be to try to make things equal. it should not be to try to balance out the previous descrimination by introducing more descrimination on the other side.

 

[joack]

correcting descrimination would be to try to make things equal. it should not be to try to balance out the previous descrimination by introducing more descrimination on the other side.

How do we correct discrimination? How do we make things equal?

 

[HANSEL]

HAHA

Minorities with a degree (the ones that earned it and deserved to be there because of grades and hardwork) should be pissed! Their hard work is now worthless because it looks as If they got in because of their race.

AA is the most ignorant thing in the world, all races should be insulted by this.

 

[***]

How do we correct discrimination? How do we make things equal?

if there were a simple answer then we wouldn't be talking about this now.

i believe in our capatalist society we will be motivated by money more than anything else. As an employer i will hire the most qualified people period. this will make my company's productivity better and increase my profits. as a president of an academic institution i will accept the most qualified applicants period. this will enhance the prestige of my school, allowing me to increase tuition at a faster rate.

the world is controlled by businessmen and businessmen want to make money, not discriminate.

 

[joack]

HAHA

Minorities with a degree (the ones that earned it and deserved to be there because of grades and hardwork) should be pissed! Their hard work is now worthless because it looks as If they got in because of their race.

AA is the most ignorant thing in the world, all races should be insulted by this.

Thank you for the editorial. Now answer the question.

I will have earned my 3rd degree 9 months from now, none of them my degrees are worthless. Anyone who believes eduation is worthless isn't too bright in my opinion. That goes the same for anyone who thinks that people who benefitted from AA (including white women) aren't smart either. They all have to earn their grades and earn that degree.

I earned a scholarship to pay for my undergraduate work, it was based on need and grades. That scholarship was available to everbody. I earned all of my grades (good and bad) and EARNED my degrees.

Now answer the questions...

 

[joack]

if there were a simple answer then we wouldn't be talking about this now.

i believe in our capatalist society we will be motivated by money more than anything else. As an employer i will hire the most qualified people period. this will make my company's productivity better and increase my profits. as a president of an academic institution i will accept the most qualified applicants period. this will enhance the prestige of my school, allowing me to increase tuition at a faster rate.

the world is controlled by businessmen and businessmen want to make money, not discriminate.

Thanx for your input bro. Just keep in mind that there are very qualified individuals in every race that need an acces to opportunity, unfortunately the decision makers dont think the way you do.

 

[primetime21]

Assume that AA has been abolished in this country.

Question:

1. What would you DO if you learned that businesses, government agencies and schools had informal policies/practices that discriminated against non-whites?

2. If you're white, what would you have to gain by saying anything?

3. Would any of you become "angry" because people have been
wronged or would you not care, turn & look the other way because you personally haven't been wronged?

I believe that your premise relies on the fact that the current system has eliminated discrimination. There are many private business that will not hire minorities (for whatever reason) and there isnt much that can be done about it.

You just have to hope that peoples greed will take over and they will just hire the most qualified (white, black or hispanic).

And government agencies can NEVER discriminate against minorities or anyone based on race thanks to the 14th amendment. This ruling, by the supreme court, actually weakens the 14th amendment because it does allow for discrimination based on color (being white). But that is an argument for a different thread.

 

[joack]

Re: Re: Post Affirmative Action Question

I believe that your premise relies on the fact that the current system has eliminated discrimination. There are many private business that will not hire minorities (for whatever reason) and there isnt much that can be done about it.

You just have to hope that peoples greed will take over and they will just hire the most qualified (white, black or hispanic).

And government agencies can NEVER discriminate against minorities or anyone based on race thanks to the 14th amendment. This ruling, by the supreme court, actually weakens the 14th amendment because it does allow for discrimination based on color (being white). But that is an argument for a different thread.

Re: Govt. - I know that the government cant discrim. by rule, but my question was what if they (like the other institutions) did in fact in an informal way. Thanx.

 

[joack]

What I find so interesting is that over 20 people have viewed this thread so far many and only 2 responses to my question.
Is it because most people will not do anything about discrimination if it doesn't adversely affect them? Hhhmmm?

 

[Tiervexx]

HAHA

Minorities with a degree (the ones that earned it and deserved to be there because of grades and hardwork) should be pissed! Their hard work is now worthless because it looks as If they got in because of their race.

AA is the most ignorant thing in the world, all races should be insulted by this.

I don't know if AA is THE most ignorant thing in the world but it is up there.

 

[primetime21]

1. What would you DO if you learned that businesses, government agencies and schools had informal policies/practices that discriminated against non-whites?

Probably nothing. Why should i stick my neck out for someone else? what would a minority do if they found out that a black business was discriminating against whites. It works both ways. I wouldnt expect a minority to risk his job or position because i was fired because i was white. I think we are all big boys/women and can take care of ourselves and fight our own battles.

2. If you're white, what would you have to gain by saying anything?

There isnt much to gain.


3. Would any of you become "angry" because people have been
wronged or would you not care, turn & look the other way because you personally haven't been wronged?

I see people getting wronged everyday at work. its called life. You do what you can do at times and within reason.

 

[HANSEL]

Ha Ha you need special treatment

 

[joack]

...lol.. Hansel - go to hell (j/k)

Prime - I'm not suggesting that anyone risk their job security. What I would do is speak to those in management if I'm not in management about diversity and how our company could benefit from it and as a consequence our nation will benefit as well. If and when I'm actually working in upper management I'll encourage a diverse workplace. I really dont see a benefit from a homogeneous workforce but I do see additional benefits from diversity. Thats what I would promote & thats what I'm about.

It will mean that if I'm looking at 2 applicants, who are equally qualified, and I have a staff thats predominately people of color, I'll hire the white applicant. To attain diversity we must make conscious choices.

 

[pwr_machine]

Here's a simple fix...for job opportunities and college entrance...how bout just fill out an application with no information in regards to race or gender. May the best applicant (male or female) regardless of race get accepted.

 

[atlantabiolab]

...lol.. Hansel - go to hell (j/k)

Prime - I'm not suggesting that anyone risk their job security. What I would do is speak to those in management if I'm not in management about diversity and how our company could benefit from it and as a consequence our nation will benefit as well. If and when I'm actually working in upper management I'll encourage a diverse workplace. I really dont see a benefit from a homogeneous workforce but I do see additional benefits from diversity. Thats what I would promote & thats what I'm about.

It will mean that if I'm looking at 2 applicants, who are equally qualified, and I have a staff thats predominately people of color, I'll hire the white applicant. To attain diversity we must make conscious choices.

Diversity is not a right, it is a social program. Why is it better that you have hired the white guy who is as qualified as the black man? You have still given only one person a job, while the other is still unemployed, and your reasoning is to promote diversification. I would be more accepting of the idea that you chose the black man over myself, because you liked his personality better, or you have greater common bond, because of background, race, etc., or because you think that he will assimilate into a predominately black business better than myself. These are all reasonable choices. One of us will still be unemployed.

 

[atlantabiolab]

How do we correct discrimination? How do we make things equal?

You destroy the reasons why people negatively stereotype. You don't see people denying Asians job opportunities do you? No, because the stereotype that they have gained is one of intelligence and hard work.

Black America is discriminated against, because of the image they display to the world. People see others long before they ever get to know them. Show them a poor image and they will refrain from ever wanting to know you. Change this image to a positive one and your barriers will become fewer and fewer.

 

[pwr_machine]

Re: Jobs: What about surnames (Latin, jewish, irish etc)
Re: Colleges Harvard vs. Howard - one's predom white the other is historically & predom. Black.

Nevermind.

 

[joack]

Here's a simple fix...for job opportunities and college entrance...how bout just fill out an application with no information in regards to race or gender. May the best applicant (male or female) regardless of race get accepted.

Re: Jobs: What about surnames (Latin, jewish, irish etc)
Re: Colleges Harvard vs. Howard - one's predom white the other is historically & predom. Black.

 

[joack]

Diversity is not a right, it is a social program. Why is it better that you have hired the white guy who is as qualified as the black man? You have still given only one person a job, while the other is still unemployed, and your reasoning is to promote diversification. I would be more accepting of the idea that you chose the black man over myself, because you liked his personality better, or you have greater common bond, because of background, race, etc., or because you think that he will assimilate into a predominately black business better than myself. These are all reasonable choices. One of us will still be unemployed.

If all else is equal I would chose to diversify my staff.

 

[joack]

You destroy the reasons why people negatively stereotype. You don't see people denying Asians job opportunities do you? No, because the stereotype that they have gained is one of intelligence and hard work.

Black America is discriminated against, because of the image they display to the world. People see others long before they ever get to know them. Show them a poor image and they will refrain from ever wanting to know you. Change this image to a positive one and your barriers will become fewer and fewer.

The reasons we are discriminated against are more that just our image. Nobody will actually admit the ignorant reasons for which they discriminate. Its convenient to say images. What images are you speaking of? We're doctors. lawyers, scientist, thugs and hoochie mammas. Sure we play a part in our own demise.
But we are more than the negative images you see in the media and to not acknowledge that is insulting. Whites have the same images in their communities but are not treated like Blacks, why? They kill, cheat, lie, wannabe thugs & hoochies to. Why dont they have an "image problem" with the rest of the world?

Our image in this country has bee controlled by the media since slavery (cartoons, black face comedy, sterotypes & myths). We never grew tails but people believed we did, we didn't come from an unintelligent civilization in Africa but people believed we did. Overtime we believed reinforced negative stereotypes and began to perpetuate them in our society. The problem is that the fabic of our community & family has deteriorated to an point where we may not be able to recover as a whole. This troubles me. But there are enough of us who do represent decent people.

For those of us that are doing something positive we haven't received the credit we deserve. We'll always have to "prove" ourselves and jump thru hoops when others aren't held to the same standard.

 

[primetime21]

It will mean that if I'm looking at 2 applicants, who are equally qualified, and I have a staff thats predominately people of color, I'll hire the white applicant. To attain diversity we must make conscious choices.

How often are there EQUALLY qualified applicants. one guy may have a 3.2 GPA while the other 3.0. One may have gone to a top 20 college while the other a top 30. One may have 5 years while the other 4. I say you take the qualified guy over the lesser qualified, always.

By the way, if a white candidate loses out to a black one simply because of race, you dont think you are creating more hate and resentment.

 

[primetime21]

The reasons we are discriminated against are more that just our image. Nobody will actually admit the ignorant reasons for which they discriminate. Its convenient to say images. What images are you speaking of? We're doctors. lawyers, scientist, thugs and hoochie mammas. Sure we play a part in our own demise.
But we are more than the negative images you see in the media and to not acknowledge that is insulting. Whites have the same images in their communities but are not treated like Blacks, why? They kill, cheat, lie, wannabe thugs & hoochies to. Why dont they have an "image problem" with the rest of the world?

Our image in this country has bee controlled by the media since slavery (cartoons, black face comedy, sterotypes & myths). We never grew tails but people believed we did, we didn't come from an unintelligent civilization in Africa but people believed we did. Overtime we believed reinforced negative stereotypes and began to perpetuate them in our society. The problem is that the fabic of our community & family has deteriorated to an point where we may not be able to recover as a whole. This troubles me. But there are enough of us who do represent decent people.

For those of us that are doing something positive we haven't received the credit we deserve. We'll always have to "prove" ourselves and jump thru hoops when others aren't held to the same standard.

All of those are GREAT points. And anyone that thinks a black man has it as easy as a white man is ignorant. However, the only way i feel to correct the problem is from within. THe more blacks who attain power and wealth the more jobs and oppurtunity there will be for the rest. PLenty of black people attain success from the bottom up and werent handed a thing.

 

[atlantabiolab]

If all else is equal I would chose to diversify my staff.

So you would give a white man, who you feel has an easier lot in life, due to his skin color, and discriminate against a black man, who you are crying doesn't get a fair shake due to his skin color!?!?

Don't give the white guy the job, help out one of your own and be a standard by which other black men/women can admire. By giving more of your own people a chance to show themselves, then you can help overcome some of their stereotypes. But you are doing this, not government. This is a viable option, the latter promotes animosity.

I have no problem with black business owners preferring people of their background, for if a man can create a business then he should be able to use it as he wishes. I don't see what benefit you are providing with diversity, by giving the white guy a job, when white-owned business out number black-owned by an astronomical number. The white guy will find a job.

 

[atlantabiolab]

Black America was discriminated against long before they had the opportunity to create their own image.

There is no arguing this, but what happened in the past should not chain you in the present. Stand up for yourself, start businesses, be vocal against immorality, give jobs to your own people preferentially, and help teach your young the honor of education and work ethics.

Communists understood the value of the children. An older man is set in his ways and will likely not change. But the young can be molded by your hand. Change the views of the young to change the future.

 

[atlantabiolab]

The reasons we are discriminated against are more that just our image. Nobody will actually admit the ignorant reasons for which they discriminate. Its convenient to say images. What images are you speaking of? We're doctors. lawyers, scientist, thugs and hoochie mammas. Sure we play a part in our own demise.
But we are more than the negative images you see in the media and to not acknowledge that is insulting. Whites have the same images in their communities but are not treated like Blacks, why? They kill, cheat, lie, wannabe thugs & hoochies to. Why dont they have an "image problem" with the rest of the world?

Because when the world sees White America they see the largest businesses in the world, the media icons, etc. Unfortunately, there are much less black images that are positive, save some music and athletic stars, which will always be looked at as not as admirable as say the founder of WalMart, etc.

I do not like the idea of "tribalism", i.e. bracketing people into their ethnic or racial catagories, for it allows judgement of "group" instead of individual. Because many white people have done great things, whites receive the advantage of being looked upon highly, when they can make no claim on the creations and ideas of the individual, who just happened to be white. This idea goes for all. An individual should not be catagorized as a criminal or drug dealer, simply because he has the same skin color as a large percentage of said criminals.

But this is the mentality of common man and he is here to stay and you won't change his mind because you tell him you "deserve respect". Earn his respect, by impressing him with accomplishments and you have a better chance of winning him over. If that won't earn his respect, that is not your goal in life. The ends man desires is happiness, so as long as you are happy, it is no matter what others think.

For those of us that are doing something positive we haven't received the credit we deserve. We'll always have to "prove" ourselves and jump thru hoops when others aren't held to the same standard.

Agreed. Each man is born with a different lot in life that he must accept and deal with on his path of life. Some are born into wealth, some poverty, some of color, some with physical handicaps, some with mental handicaps. Each man is unique and his goal is to create his own happiness, whatever that may be.

 

[pwr_machine]

Black America? Here's another solution...QUIT WHINING!

 

[Anarchist]

let me tell you a story.

i am a descendant of a discriminated pppl. i am irish and german. anyone remember the term 'patty wagon'? my ppl were thought of as less ten civilized. here i am, 3 generations later, and i have all the oppprotunity i can stand. why? cause im willing to work for it. why, after so long a time are blacks having such a time getting jobs? they want there own thing, but they dont want to work for it. they dont want to carve out the niche my ppl did. im sorry, but i dont feel a slight bit bad.

i partied with many blacks. some were tghe coolest doods ive ever met. tgey didnt have trouble getting and keeping jobs. they werent angry. they gave no one a choice but to like them. i did. these guys are successes in my opinion now. i work with black ppl who are openly angry about whites, like, by virtue of our skin the world is our pearl. i hear them bitch, some legitimate, and i think that these ppl are telling me the shit ive done is inconsequentsial to what they do. that is a big factor of disrepect. like i have it easy.

ill tell you straight out, i wouldnt hire a black guy if it was obvious he was gonna be a pain in the ass. i live in a small overwhelmingly white town. thats who im gonna ire the most because of attrition. but im damned sure not gonna hire a black guy looking like sway off MTV. that is a conflict waiting to happen.

were blacks treated horridly in the past. yes. were germans and irish ppl? yes. the irish fighting drunk is a stereotype tat persists to this day. for that matter, so were asians.

the problem today with blacks isnt that they are black, but that they have been tainted, to a large degree, by the al sharptons and the jesse jacksons. those guys arent any better tan the elitest george bush. and they are trying to polarize the races. anger and hate arent going to get you friends.

if black ppl want to see racism, look in the mirror. who can blame us for being distrustfull of a group of ppl whose whole thing is how we are te problem. its onl;y natural.