Please help us with a decision.

[George Spellwin]

Dear friends and fellow athletes,

First, thank you for your support. By paying for your subscription to Elite Fitness Select, you make this site possible.

I would appreciate your opinions and advice. Since the launch of the new boards, the traffic on this site has increased from about 35,000 visitors a day to about 50,000 visitors. And the number of pages looked at (not hits, pages) has increased from about 150,000 per day to almost half a million per day.

As can be expected, the associated increase in cost to run this site has been high. We have had to add new hardware, and our bandwidth usage has roughly tripled.

We are looking for ways to bring in additional revenues to cover these costs, but at the same time, we want to be sure to preserve the energy and spirit of what we have going on here.

Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated.

 

[George Spellwin]

BigJay,

I think PayPal is a great idea. We are planning to incorporate their service into our order system.

I like you other ideas too, but we do need a way to generate revenues from the site itself and not just from merchandise.

 

[The Iron Game]

In Summing up it seems like this:

You wish for high numbers of people. The downside of this is that as a result increase in hardware is needed which costs $ and you would prefer people to pay for this rather than taking a loss and paying from the company which is completely understandable.

If you allow advertising (companies such as supplement manufacturers will want the space) this will possibly lead to a drop in sales from Mass Quantities.

Mr Spellwin youare in a very difficult position but I will have a think and see if there is anything I can think of.

The Double Edged Sword

 

[George Spellwin]

In Summing up it seems like this:

You wish for high numbers of people. The downside of this is that as a result increase in hardware is needed which costs $ and you would prefer people to pay for this rather than taking a loss and paying from the company which is completely understandable.

If you allow advertising (companies such as supplement manufacturers will want the space) this will possibly lead to a drop in sales from Mass Quantities.

Mr Spellwin youare in a very difficult position but I will have a think and see if there is anything I can think of.

The Double Edged Sword

Very true -- also, the advertising model for web sites has failed -- more and more content sites are beginning to charge something.

 

[The Iron Game]

Mr Spellwin, have you ever thought about manufacturing or buying and selling supplements that are in deman but in higher doses. Supplements such as Silymarin, a similar Liv 52 product, Vitamin B5 for acne (but is needed in such high amounts that the 500mg caps from the other co's are too small), Vitamin B 12, Alpha Lipoic Acid etc.

Just ideas.

Peace

 

[HappyScrappy]

some of the linux/free software project sites out there (and likely others but those are the ones I've seen most) use the concept of micropayments where you give money to help keep the site alive.
you give via credit card and can give any amount you want at any rate you want ($1 a year, $10 every month - whatever you want).
much like the PBS fund drives that they do, but this is continual.

this is easy for you since you already do credit card processing via your massquantities site. the only downside I can think of (other than lack of interest from some of the ingrateful shits on the board), would be that your credit card processing company that you use might have minimum amounts that it will handle in transactions - or that they fee they charge affects the same concept.

perhaps this was already suggested - there is reference to something bigjay said, but I don't see his post and he isn't on my ignore list that I know of...

 

[George Spellwin]

Mr Spellwin, have you ever thought about manufacturing or buying and selling supplements that are in deman but in higher doses. Supplements such as Silymarin, a similar Liv 52 product, Vitamin B5 for acne (but is needed in such high amounts that the 500mg caps from the other co's are too small), Vitamin B 12, Alpha Lipoic Acid etc.

Just ideas.

Peace

Excellent ideas, I will study them.

I am equally concerned about building revenue from what is going on here already, making Elite be profitable without the sale of merchandise.

 

[George Spellwin]

some of the linux/free software project sites out there (and likely others but those are the ones I've seen most) use the concept of micropayments where you give money to help keep the site alive.
you give via credit card and can give any amount you want at any rate you want ($1 a year, $10 every month - whatever you want).
much like the PBS fund drives that they do, but this is continual.

this is easy for you since you already do credit card processing via your massquantities site. the only downside I can think of (other than lack of interest from some of the ingrateful shits on the board), would be that your credit card processing company that you use might have minimum amounts that it will handle in transactions - or that they fee they charge affects the same concept.

perhaps this was already suggested - there is reference to something bigjay said, but I don't see his post and he isn't on my ignore list that I know of...

Excellent comments!

I think the idea of micropayments is a good one, but not realistic. There are both fixed and percentage charges associated with a credit card transaction, so it is hard to charge less than say $8 or $9 per month.

I do want our order system to support monthly recurring payments and also PayPal. I am working to integrate this.

Thanks to everyone for your help.

 

[BigJay81]

Well I'm not sure about this one but. Maybe

How about a Forum just for Helping people create and stay with Trainning Program I know you sell one but it is to expensive for the masses.
Maybee charge $30 and give them a diet for a month and a trainning schedule. Just an idea it would be easy to do. And if they liked it they could come back for more It would be a monthly program.

Who know its hard to make money off a site without the sales of its products.

I'll keep thinking but not a whole lot to do.

 

[1abbig]

How about books on steroids.. ie.. anabolics 2000, war, and others that are informative, magazines, such as muscle and fitness, ironman, and so forth, offer discounts on them for joining the select forums and also when purchasing some of your news letters. also the magazines can deal in other subjects as well since we have car lovers on board, hot rod issues, car classics ,elite fitness desk daily calenders that offer nutritional and body building advice on each day versus the ones with jokes and cartoons on them . or make this a complete paysite. there are options, but to find the one that will be the most sucessful will take time. how are the sales of the elitefitness t-shirts, offer a free or discounted price on them for those who join pay forums, and such. just some ideas.

 

[Lift Or Die]

You could always ask for donations. If you have 50,000 visitors a day on this site I'm sure many of them would be willing to donate a few bucks to help maintain a site they like to use. Even if only 5% of 50,000 donated $5 that adds up to a lot.

I'm sure some will say its a bad idea to ask for donations but I see nothing wrong with it as many of these people have benefitted from the information exchanged on this site for free.

 

[The Iron Game]

How about EF merchandising? T-sirts, Vests, Baggies and so on. Im sure you can run a survey to check out if it would work.

 

[nycdefender]

If you don't want to increase revenues through merchandise, then I think your best alternative would be personal fitness services. With all of the knowledge that you have acquired, you can perform this service better than 99% of the other personal trainers. I know that you currently offer a personal training consultation service. Why not try to auction off several training packages: your current e-mail consultation, a weekend training package with you here in NYC. Lots of people are making money with E-Bay. I'm not suggesting E-Bay as the forum in which to auction off the different packages. I think that you could create your own auction link within your site.

 

[BigJay81]

If you don't want to increase revenues through merchandise, then I think your best alternative would be personal fitness services. With all of the knowledge that you have acquired, you can perform this service better than 99% of the other personal trainers. I know that you currently offer a personal training consultation service. Why not try to auction off several training packages: your current e-mail consultation, a weekend training package with you here in NYC. Lots of people are making money with E-Bay. I'm not suggesting E-Bay as the forum in which to auction off the different packages. I think that you could create your own auction link within your site.

Hey I like that!!!!!!!

I would bid on something like that Maybee a weekend at NYC And have one of your people or you come and train us. Diet advice. And a hotel for the weekend.

That would be gooooooooddddddd!!!!

 

[win4life]

I am a newbie that just started doing research on the web and stumbled across your sight. I paid the money for this area because I am hoping to learn from more vets and diligent enthusiasts.
I would pay additional money for a sight where I could get information pertinent to me. If there was a place that could offer suggested diets with different stacks, plus discuss routines and tips for perfecting lift technique, and provide that would save alot of exploring time. Perhaps there is a sight like that, but with the hours I have put in already I have not seen those combinations together. I have been picking up bits and peaces by wading through many searches. Some of the most valiable information I have gotten has come from the times I lifted with some vets in the gym. There are some guys on the boards that I look forward to reading. It would be nice to have these guys together and discussing basics through advanced stuff. It would also be pretty cool to have regular guests like those well noted for their progress and achievments.

Just a thought. I will probabaly find this area after making this post. (Newbie)

 

[win4life]

Sorry I did not have my wife proof read.

 

[Cleaner]

Just throwing this out...................

A cook book...........just a start..
I see a lot of recipe swapping going on here and I know for myself I always look for good new dishes to add to my arsenal. I hear it an awful a lot from others that the diet part is the hardest and I never see good cook books for us muscle heads.
So you get everyone to send them in and you publish it.
I think it would do good.....................Everyone who sends one in will buy it.
They will just want to see their stuff in print.
I think a lot of other will jump on it to.
Just a thought.

 

[bstone]

advertising

Hey George,
What about revenues from outside advertisers? Supplement manufacturers and whatnot? There should be plenty more of that out there.
I don't know if that would be bad for the site's integrity or not?


Just a thought.

 

[Romeo78]

Why not charge a user fee of $5.00 every six months to use all the boards? Go through paypall, and use it to collect the money.

Also, I agree with selling books on AS here. You have a ton of newbies who would benefit from having a one stop shopping place for this info. I know I would love it. And maybe give users a little discount on the price to make it worth their while.

I like the idea of workout gear, with the elite fitness logo on it.

 

[Stew Meat]

I see several potential ways to offset elite's expenses...

1. Change "Elite Between the Sheets" to a members only section much like the Select Board. This will not only generate revenue for those who want to learn about the opposite sex and view the porn in the women's/men's photo session, but will also prevent children from gaining access to the material.

2. Elite merchandise. Individual board members have designed clothing accessories featuring the Elitefitness name and logo, but backed out of having them produced (like the Organon and Ttokkyo shirts) from fear of a trademark infringement and/or conflict of interest with the administration of the site. Clothing featuring "Elitefitness" is an excellent way for board members to recognize other members not only when visiting other gyms, but there may very well be elite members at your local gym that you otherwise would never have met. Elite clothing could be a way to not only identify with other elite members but would be a great way to spread the web address thus introducing more people to Mass Quantities... a win/win.

3. Hardcopy books such as the cookbook that was mentioned would probably be a great seller. I personally could donate at least 20 great protein rich recipies from how to make your own great tasting protein bars (Big Jay can vouch for these ), to recipes for high protein taco shells, muffins, pies, meatballs, etc... all including Mass Quantities protein powders.

4. Donations. This is does not have to be as unprofessional as it may sound... If elite set up an account with paypal, it would be more than easy to donate monthly contributions to help run this site. With all the valuable information this site has generated, I'm sure many including myself would jump at the chance to give something back to this site.



-Stew

 

[Cornellius]

What about contests between our members. Every contestant has to pay for its entrance to the contest. The contest would begin on day X with the before pics, then on day every one should show their after pics. You can use the newspaper thing to see that the pics were really taken this day. With suplements, wear, books, consultations or even money prices.
Could be....

 

[21inch_arms]

Why don't we combine the expertise of all the Guru's here and make a book about anabolics just something basic with color pictures of legit products and fake ones like Anabolics 2k. But instead of writing one book every 4 years we could make a quarterly update And include a "Greatest Posts" section in the back or Q and A. In turn we could sell selective advertising. What's even better we could sell it via the net as an e-book or CD that can be mailed to save overhead. I believe we have the raw data in front of us right before our very eyes and the resource to make something great. I'd even be willing to quit my job and work for elite. I've been thinking about this for quite some time but it just came to me. I sometimes get all pumped up over nothing though.

 

[Hanabolic Lecter]

• A George Spellwin Fitness Education Center—a “click and mortar” operation offering books, seminars, personal trainer certifications…etc. Establish your own Elite Fitness Certification, in the vein of ACE & NFPT.
  
• An Elite Fitness VISA credit card.

 

[growing painz]

I would personally be interested in something like this..It would be worth the money....I also like the idea of providing supplements.....

Well I'm not sure about this one but. Maybe

How about a Forum just for Helping people create and stay with Trainning Program I know you sell one but it is to expensive for the masses.
Maybee charge $30 and give them a diet for a month and a trainning schedule. Just an idea it would be easy to do. And if they liked it they could come back for more It would be a monthly program.

 

[BackDoc]

What about including distributors or retail stores in sales of your products?...at least if you're willing to sell discounted bulk. Although this potentially might pit elite members in the same city against each other, gyms and stores carrying your products might increase sales and rep the site...then training manuals, clothing, recipe books, etc. might promote themselves.

Not exactly the theme continued, but thought I'd throw it out anyways. I have a lot of patients who ask about supplements I recommend, and I know a lot of you others get questions all the time too...chances are many of you are in good with your local supplement shops. If members personally sold your stuff or could recommend a place locally that might increase sales of the brand.

I don't know. It was just a thought. I'll keep it to myself next time

 

[BigJay81]

I have one that intrests me.

How about you charge a FEW for people who want to peddle their own products on your board???

I would be more then happy to pay for the service I'm sure others would as well.

 

[Slopain]

How about a pay board specifically used for brainstorming on how to make the paying members money such as this thread?? j/k But there is some great ideas being tossed around here props to you fellas. There are a number of good ideas here.

The book idea I often think about doing. We read these books: War 96, Anabolics 2000, etc.. all of these are full of errors and even typos. Getting a few of the truly knowledgeable folks here together to help edit and contribute information on: Stacks, Profiles, and most importantly PRODUCTS focusing on the newer products that have made waves in the market (specifically ttokkyo, loeffler, t400) would be beneficial and put the book out of the league of any other book that I know of on AS.

The final answer of course would be profitability of the ideas - but I would love to see this idea come to fruition.


Once again - good brainstorming in this thread!

 

[velvett]

You could sell tees, sweatshirts, hats, mugs, mousepads, etc from the cafe press store


Corporate Info


Gorilla Wear's cafe press site

Just a thought.

I would be in line for a mug, hat or a babydoll tee.

*shrug*

check it out

I own a mug from a web friend of mine and I must say it's damn cool.

 

[Jeff_rys]

Or you could sell some...

roids. Now this would be a succes.....

 

[Dexter]

George, in my view this post alone is worth the price of being on the Elite Fitness Select board. I'm sorry I missed out on so much over my extended vacation.

What I've seen in the last 1 1/2 years is a web site that has just gotten better and better, and with some solid business thought behind it. And that's why you are facing this issue of maintenance expenses; it's just grown and grown and with all the attendent expenses. What you have created in my view is a "dot.com," a sort of Excite@Home or Yahoo! of the fitness supplements industry.

Yet you've kept it lean and haven't tried to do all things for all people. That's one of the reasons so many dot.coms got themselves in deep, deep trouble: They didn't stick to their knitting and didn't keep their expenses in check. (hehe - see note at the end of this message).

I consider it laudable that you are actively seeking suggestions from those who value the content you have provided; brainstorming being a key component of any problem-solving process.

I'm with Iron Game regarding the double edged sword. And the other comments and suggestions have not only been intellectually stimulating to me, but indicate just how much thought you have put into it. .

Just a few things come to mind (I'll reserve my more wacky ideas):

1. Setting up a gear sale section might seem great, but it would be a dead end street for your business. You might be able to structure it in such a way (offshore or whatever) that keeps Mass Quantities clean - for a while at least, but I think you've already dismissed that notion. It's tough enough to sell non-AS supps with the FDA changing the rules and Marshalls serving you warrants for whatnot.

2. Your offices are just blocks away from the world's financial center. Have you considered a public offering in one form or another? Perhaps even a small, limited one? Even with the legal hassles, you might make megabucks and retire in the Bahamas.

Best regards, Dex

Strength and Honor.

----------------------------------------------------------

NOTE: An interesting comment on Reflex Communications, an MDU high speed Internet access startup that tanked, in a recent Seattle Times:

In some cases, dot-coms frittered money away on expensive office furniture, even golf clubs. Reflex Communications bought more than 90 custom-made desks and a wooden coffee table with the company's "R" logo inlaid on the top to outfit offices in Pioneer Square. It left $26
million in debts when it went bust in April.

Bazillion and iStart Ventures, which was supposed to "incubate" other dot-coms, spent $98,000 buying 140 Herman Miller Aeron office chairs at $700 a pop. The chairs were sold at an auction in April for as little as $325 each.

 

[ybsmall]

We had run into the very same problem and started to float a test of micro suscriptions of services. Our company builds interfaces for many exceptionally large enterprise systems - those are somewhat stable because of the vast amount of capital infrastructure supporting them. On some of our smaller level projescts we have tested a program where we charge incremental prices for useful asp services. Hence, instead of providing free email as we had done with Lycos as a partner, we test charged a monthly fee ($.50 per month) for the service. Of course we lost some of our members, but the vast majority stayed and we split the income with our partners. The same held for other services and now we are in the process of changing over all affiliated sites in this particular network. This site network is partnered with CBS/Viacom television and while we are in re-construction of the system, plese fell free to explore www.wbzclicks.com for an example of where CBS/Viacom is headed (the apartment is where we will be billing for asp services). We also include, as others have proposed above, revenue splits for on-site sales and click-trhu traffic generation - mostly as secondary and tertiary revenue sources. I am a new, but big fan of this site and I offer any developmental or other help my company or myself can provide.

 

[NJstacked]

George,

I would wear a T-shirt and Sweathshirt......

NJstacked

 

[NJstacked]

George....Seriously contact and Investment Bank..have them do a private placement....Raise Capital....and start charging for Elite....Alos, with the capital start buying other competitive sites....and take their members....this is how it is done....

 

[liftsiron]

Create yet another board, where users must pay to fill out a personal profile and personal history i.e. previous training experience, medical history, etc. Then create a personal training and nutrition program for that person. They could purchase one or the other or buy a package deal. As supplements are highly reccomended in any nutrition program you would generate more business for your line. Also this would be a good group of people to enter an elitefitness personal improvement contest. They would get automatically entered with purchase of the program. This would work, similiar ideas have worked for other companies. Best of luck to elitefitness.

 

[guards]

I like the book idea......I'm sure that with all the wealth of knowledge, everybody would contribute!!!!!


Elite fitness the novel?? Elite fitness the steroid handbook????

Elite fitness the training book???


How about holding a gear friendly bodybuilding comp???

Just some ideas

 

[toga22]

George--

First of all you have created a great site here, full of valuable information in a setting in which people are able to gain commoradity among fellow athletes and motivation for their workouts. Thank You.

From what I understand of your post, you are looking to make Elite Fitness self-supporting; you want to make enough money off of this site alone to cover the cost incurred by it.

I will give you the ideas that I have bouncing around my head at the moment.

1. Run a survey of all of the members. Include it in your weekly newletter. I would bet the response would be about 80%. This survey would not be looking for demographic information, but for where the members interest lie. Are they interested in information pertaining to Anabolics/Supplements, training, diet, general fitness.

If the results of your survey shows that most of the members have an interest in diet, for example, you could create a pay-per-view board. This board would be open to all members of elite fitness, and be on a one time one view basis. Through this site you could create daily menus based on the type of diet the member in question is currently on. You could give them, a one time 10 week diet plan. This information could be sent out via e-mail.

2. The cookbook is a great idea, for myself I am always looking for different low carb recipes. (Eating tuna gets old!!)

3. I also love Hanabolic Lector's idea of " George Spellwin Fitness Education Center— offering books, seminars, personal trainer certifications…etc. Establish your own Elite Fitness Certification, in the vein of ACE & NFPT. "
I have been an aerobic instuctor for about 8 years, and the certifications that my employer makes me possess is incredible For example, "Reebok Step aerobic instruction, Reebok Double Step aerobic instruction certification, Nike aerobics certification, and the list goes on, most are simply fitness shoe companies or fitness equipment companies certifications. All I usually get from the "150-300 dollar course", is a little plastic card and a 10% discount on their merchandise. And these certifications must be renewed yearly.

There are a lot of great ideas included on your post, hopefully you will be able to find the perfect solution to your problem.

Best of luck to you--

-toga

 

[68GT350]

I think there should be a whole online store for all your steroid needs. There should be syringes, needles, vials, and other items useful for users of steroids that Mass Quantities shouldn't deal with all stamped with the Elite Fitness logo. Don't be afraid to use the Elite Fitness logo to make money.

An entire line of merchandise would be great. Designs by members would be a great way to get us all involved. Also, how bout some TTokkyo, Organon, etc. brand clothing with the Elite logo too!

 

[liftsiron]

Here's another idea have an elite fitness get together with semminars and perhaps a personel trainer certification program. Maybe in conjunction with a bodybuilding, fit and figure contest. You could have various fees charged for each activity, make it an entire weekend. You have the talent to draw from. I would suggest a site other than New York City because of the cost of lodging etc. Make this a semi-annual event, you could sell tickets in advance from this site, with the understanding thst the event must pay for itself, otherwise the event will be cancelled and ticket holders will be refunded. This would work.

 

[40butpumpin]

I think there is A LOT of room in the supplement business for a kick-ass Elite Fitness line of supplements (much more comprehensive and sophisticated than you have now). I would make them top-of-the-line, however, like on par with Twinlab or Solgar but focusing on bodybuilders and the serious/professional athelete. You could have combinations that are good for things such as cholesterol control, lowering/controlling BP, eliminating or avoiding excess water, anti-oxidents and detox, anti-catabolics, liver protection, pro-sexual supp's, etc. I wouldn't mess around though, do it right and establish yourself as the best in the business spareing no expense on quality of ingredients and get the right stuff (combinations) together, you could really have something. Then, merchandise, like clothing would basically sell itself. I've thought for a long time that if you invested more into supplements, you could have a real gold-mine. You could even have members of the board vote for what they'd like to see in the products. Hell, we bro's on the board should know better than anyone what should be in those products. Good luck with it George. I've actually done quite a bit of research in some of these areas, please let me know if I could be of assisstance in any way.

 

[njmuscle]

I'd concentrate on expanding revenue a lot further before looking into any sort of equity offering - there's no appetite on the Street for dot-coms right now.

I'd suggest your best bet is to further expand the web site - you already have a huge on-line community to draw from, so offer more for sale that they want/need. A few ideas:

* Take the ideas that are on this thread for books, but make them on-line books, either by download or by password-accessed web pages.

* An on-line magazine by subscription only - offer a few articles free and the rest by subscription. This is the model that Salon (just about the last of the web-only magazines that's survived) has gone with, and it seems to be working well for them.

* Expand your own brand of supplements further, and offer a limited number of products (quality-vetted by you) from other companies (avoid the R&D expense where you can - no need to reinvent the wheel on some things like anti-oxidants.)

* Along the same lines - limited advertising from reputable firms (pre-vetted by you.) Might be eaier to concentrate more along the non-supplement side (e.g. training clothes, dress clothes, etc.) to avoid the "we give the 'seal of approval' to whoever can pay for ads" syndrome that always seems to come with this sort of program (I'm not gonna name names here.)

* Offer reviews of mainstream BB/powerlifting books, videos, etc, with a click-through to Amazon to buy (and generate commisisons for Elite) if they carry it. Everyone does this.

Beyond the web, if you have the capital, have you considered opening a gym in NYC? (It's my understanding you're based in Manhattan?) Besides being a base for Elite-sponsored seminars, training, etc., it could be a money-maker in its own right - although there's a damn NYSC every 50 feet, there's a real shortage of hard-core gyms. Position it for maximum subway convenience and offer a good locker room to get the before work/lunch/after work trainers, and you could have a winner.

Also, besides traditiional personal training, you could offer a "consultancy" of sorts - from reading Elite, I see a lot of people who want more info on training, etc. to meet various goals, including going into competition. But if you go to a NYSC-style health club, or even a hard-core gym at odd hours, who do you talk to if you don't want to hire a trainer but just want one-on-one help with questions like contest prep, etc? Personally, I have no interest in hiring a trainer, but would hire a "consultant" occasionally. This could be a big winner, especially since those outside the NY area could combine it with a weekend in NY. You can strike a deal with a hotel or two to offer decent rates, perhaps even get a few airfare deals going with the smaller lines (JetBlue, perhaps?)

 

[gymtime]

This is not so much an adding revenue thing as a money saving idea. And it might be completely off base. But, as new members sign up everyday, and with very few of them paying, I assume you'll run into a bandwidth and disk space problem.

With that in mind, it just occurred to me how far the archives go back on this board. Seems like forever. How necessary is that? Would it be worth dumping some of that data in an effort to free up some space/bandwidth? Therefore saving on expneses?

Just my .02.

 

[Cornellius]

This is not so much an adding revenue thing as a money saving idea. And it might be completely off base. But, as new members sign up everyday, and with very few of them paying, I assume you'll run into a bandwidth and disk space problem.

With that in mind, it just occurred to me how far the archives go back on this board. Seems like forever. How necessary is that? Would it be worth dumping some of that data in an effort to free up some space/bandwidth? Therefore saving on expneses?

Just my .02.

I believe some of that data you mean has already been erased. I haven´t been able to find archives topics a thousand of times....

 

[HappyScrappy]

there are two searches.
there is the one up where you have your profile and such - within there you can manipulate it so that you have varying degrees of resolution as to what you see.

then up at the very top, you have the links to discussion boards, free e-mail, etc... AND search.
that one in there allows you to go back through a different set - AND most importantly - the archives - TONS of stuff in there.