Please critique the proposed Phenyltropic ECA formulation

[George Spellwin]

Dear friends and fellow athletes,

I appreciate all of the help that our members gave us with respect to the planned reformulation of our diet/energy product Phenyltropic. I especially appreciate the contributions of Jock07, Fonz, Rotten, and Buld0g. They were the first to recommend ingredients that we are seriously considering.

Please let me know what you think of the following formulation:

Per Capsule:
Caffeine 200 Mg – this is a 100 mg increase over the present formula
Yohimbine HCL 3 Mg (or 60 mg of 5% standardized alkaloids) the max allowed by law
Ephedrine Alkaloids 25 Mg – the max allowed by law
L-Tyrosine 500 Mg
Camellia sinensis -- Green Tea Polyphenols – 320 Mg
Chromium Picolinate 500 mcg
Piper Methysticum (kava kava root) 450 Mg
Taraxicum officinale (dandelion leaf powder) 1500 Mg
Narangenin The Narangin will come from a grapefruit bioflavenoid powder standardized to 1.4% narangin. What dosage would you recommend of this powder?

I appreciate all your help. Just think, what other fitness web site gets member input with supplement formulations?

 

[Suspension]

Most of the newer formulations on the market contain 100mg caffine. I get just as stoked from 100mg, plus, it wont dehydrate your body as much.

I think 200mg is just too much for some people. The best fat burners Ive tried are MD-6 and Lipokinetix, both had 100mg caffine.

Just my thoughts...

 

[George Spellwin]

Looks good George.

Why Ephedrine Alkaloids rather than Norephedrine ?

Sadly, Norephedrine is now basically illegal.

 

[TxCollegeguy]

I think it looks good George I think upping the Caffine is also good.

 

[MUSTANG_18]

That looks like a Great Product George. I would love to give it a try, when do you think this product would be out ready for sale ? Best of luck

M18

 

[lawnsaver]

George, what is the recomended dose? What is the purpose of the kava kava? Is it to level out the jitters?

 

[cockdezl]

"Please let me know what you think of the following formulation:

Per Capsule:
Caffeine 200 Mg – this is a 100 mg increase over the present formula
Yohimbine HCL 3 Mg (or 60 mg of 5% standardized alkaloids) the max allowed by law
Ephedrine Alkaloids 25 Mg – the max allowed by law
L-Tyrosine 500 Mg
Camellia sinensis -- Green Tea Polyphenols – 320 Mg
Chromium Picolinate 500 mcg
Piper Methysticum (kava kava root) 450 Mg
Taraxicum officinale (dandelion leaf powder) 1500 Mg
Narangenin The Narangin will come from a grapefruit bioflavenoid powder standardized to 1.4% narangin. What dosage would you recommend of this powder?"

UMMM...George, you said this is one capsule? What is this a suppository?

Why P. methysticum ROOT, and not standardized extract? You should use extracts to maximize capsule size and efficacy.

I would be wary of yohimbine along with EC, the one study done on this combination showed elevations in blood pressure...and with this "sue 'em all" mentality, if someone croaks, even if they had terminal heart disease, the jury tends to favor the "poor victim" over the "evil company". Plus, you are adding alot of "extenders" (agents that reduce metabolism of certain drugs)...this may increase the chance of idiots hurting themselves.

Think about things like Hawthorn extract or CoQ10 for cardio protective effects.

 

[George Spellwin]

lawnsaver,

yes, the kava is to make you feel good and to even out the jitters.

cockdezl,

Actually, we were the first to market a Yohimbe, Ephedrine formula, so we really cannot remove the Yohimbe. We will have to be very strict about the dosage, because of the extenders.

Also, we will use a standardized extract for the Kava and we will try to keep the pill size down, or recommend two pills.

Thanks for your input. What are your thoughts on the Narangenin dosage?

 

[Fonz]

lawnsaver,

yes, the kava is to make you feel good and to even out the jitters.

cockdezl,

Actually, we were the first to market a Yohimbe, Ephedrine formula, so we really cannot remove the Yohimbe. We will have to be very strict about the dosage, because of the extenders.

Also, we will use a standardized extract for the Kava and we will try to keep the pill size down, or recommend two pills.

Thanks for your input. What are your thoughts on the Narangenin dosage?

George,

A good dose is 100mg naringenin per 25EPH/200CAFF

At that dosage however you need a stronger extract(circa 10%)

Godspeed

 

[George Spellwin]

Fonz,

Where can it be found in that strength? This stuff is not easy to come by.

 

[Fonz]

Fonz,

Where can it be found in that strength? This stuff is not easy to come by.

Truthfully, I have no idea.

I'll look into it though.
There can't really be that many
companies that produce naringenin.
Where did you acquire yours; China?

Godspeed

 

[cockdezl]

GEORGE, you can drop the narengenin, if you like, and add Piperine (Bioperine), an extract of Piper nigrum made by Sabinsa. It has activity similar to narengenin, it is effective at 5mg doses (to maximize capsule size) and is an uncoupler.

 

[Fonz]

GEORGE, you can drop the narengenin, if you like, and add Piperine (Bioperine), an extract of Piper nigrum made by Sabinsa. It has activity similar to narengenin, it is effective at 5mg doses (to maximize capsule size) and is an uncoupler.

Damn good idea Cockedzl.
Naringenin occupies too much volume.
Another addition I just thought up is
Cayenne standardised for 80,000 BTU's
per serving. Just an idea. Works through
different mechanisms than ECA.

Godspeed

 

[scubasteve]

Just a question...

How do you guys know all this stuff? Can you recommend a source? I am very interested.

Scubasteve

 

[Daeo]

I like the formula. I really don't care for the kava kava though. That's one of the reasons why I take a fat burner. I need all the extra energy I can get while dieting. The last thing I need is to feel sleepy. Also wouldn't this be similar to a speedball(and upper and a downer). It's a possibility that either the ephedrine or the kava kava would be absorbed faster leaving you buzzed one minute and sleepy the next...

 

[George Spellwin]

Great feedback guys.

Fonz, we have played around with Piperine in the past, and since it is basically very strong pepper, it can cause heartburn. Have you found this to be the case too? That's why I thought the Narangin was such a good idea.

Daeo, the Kava should act like a very mild benzodiazepine, not a sedative. It will not make you sleepy, but should help you not care too much about the jitters. What are everyone elses thoughts on the Kava?

 

[Fonz]

Great feedback guys.

Fonz, we have played around with Piperine in the past, and since it is basically very strong pepper, it can cause heartburn. Have you found this to be the case too? That's why I thought the Narangin was such a good idea.

Daeo, the Kava should act like a very mild benzodiazepine, not a sedative. It will not make you sleepy, but should help you not care too much about the jitters. What are everyone elses thoughts on the Kava?

When I took it early in the morning on an empty
stomach I got some heart-burn. Mostly, it gave me
the "face-flush"...LOL (akin to when eating A VERY
HOT salsa). It does affect bodytemp. I measure it
(curiosity got the better of me), and it goes up
by .2-.3 degrees C.
With food, I got no heart-burn but a definite
thermogenic effect.

As far as Kava Kava is concerned haven't
really tried it. I'm still not convinced it works, but
rather people feel good from the placebo effect.
Herbal depressants however aren't really my area of
expertise. Cockedzl should have better info
than me on the matter.

Godspeed

 

[Frackal]

I don't know if someone mentioned this yet George, but what about a small dosage of Niacin? I believe this b vitamin helps your thyroid levels and can increase theromogenesis (? not sure though)

 

[calkid]

Dump the Kava

Personally, I would dump the Kava. This is a "fat burner," and I see no purpose whatsoever for the Kava herb. When I take Kava, it relaxes me. This is the absolute last thing I want when I take an "energy/fat burning" pill. I want to feel the effects. I want to take advantage of that energized feeling. If people get too jacked taking it, they can add their own Kava Kava formulation to it (at the end of the day or whatever they prefer.) I like all the ideas and think the ingredients thus far sound excellent. But DEFINITELY dump the Kava... Please!

 

[double d]

For Diuretic Puposes?

Taraxicum officinale (dandelion leaf powder) 1500 Mg George are you including this to help shed water. If so I like it. Most good OTC diuretics include this. 200mg of caffiene rocks, I love it!

 

[cockdezl]

"Great feedback guys.

Fonz, we have played around with Piperine in the past, and since it is basically very strong pepper, it can cause heartburn. Have you found this to be the case too? That's why I thought the Narangin was such a good idea.

Daeo, the Kava should act like a very mild benzodiazepine, not a sedative. It will not make you sleepy, but should help you not care too much about the jitters. What are everyone elses thoughts on the Kava?"

Kava is an effective sedative, but the mechanisms are not yet elucidated, as it seems to have multiple mechanisms. Valerian would be a better, more selective benzo-like choice, but it is hard to find extracts standardized with high amounts of valeric acid or valpotriates. Kava is fine, and you can definately get a good high Kavalactone extract, but there is muscle relaxant qualities that may not be desired.

Cayenne is thermogenic by virtue of the capsaicinoids, which simply cause the release of norepi from nerve terminals. With all of the norepi releasers already in your brew (E+C+Y) you may be running the well dry. The tyrosine would help replenish some catecholamine levels. Ginger, due to gingerol and other shagaols, has been shown to do a similar effect as cayenne.

Really, thinking about it, there is not going to be that much one can do, until we find something new, since we are really tapping the adrenergic system.

Micronized USP progesterone. Duchaine hinted around to progesterone's benefit during dieting, and it may be useful. If one is hypocaloric, progesterone stimulates the hell out of lipolysis, and the resulting free fatty acid levels reduce glucose metabolism, thus sparing muscle catabolism. I have always wondered if levonorgesterol would be good to use during a keto or low carb diet to preserve muscle. It is anti-estrogenic, and anabolic, since it binds (and activates) the AR. Many have heard the stories of people using Trophobolone, with no problems. Dan stated that one pro he knew used it during dieting and always came in ripped.

Damn, this post is too long.

 

[MR. BMJ]

About the cayenne, it definately makes me hotter than hell, but the stuff is pretty rough on the stomach and heartburn. Now that I mention it, it is pretty rough coming out the ass too . I haven't tried the "cool" cayenne, so I don't know if it has the same effect.

Kava Kava: Well, I definately feel this too when I take it at night as a sleep aid. However, I need to know something about this stuff, ***Is Kava Kava hard on the liver???? I have a report (i'm out of town at this time) at home stating that it may be pretty harmful on the liver. Is this true??? FONZ, GEORGE, COCKDEZL??? I haven't really researched this herb very much, and I don't know if this is a biased study. Damn, wish I was at home, I would post it!!! Have you guys heard anything along these same lines??? I'll post the study tomorrow night when I get home. Thanks.
MR. BMJ

 

[Daeo]

I've tried Kava Kava before bedtime on night I've had trouble sleeping. I was asleep within 30 minutes after taking it. So it's effective for me at least and not what I'm looking for in a fat burner...

 

[cockdezl]

MR BMJ, here is probably the article you were citing:

BMJ 2001;322:139 ( 20 January )

Papers
Drug points

Hepatitis associated with Kava, a herbal remedy for anxiety
Monica Escher, Jules Desmeules.

Division of Clinical Pharmacology and Toxicology

Emile Giostra.

Division of Gastroenterology

Gilles Mentha.

Division of Visceral Surgery, Geneva University Hospital, 1211 Geneva 14, Switzerland

Kava, the rhizome of the pepper plant Piper methysticum, has been widely used in the South Pacific as a narcotic drink. Lactones, the major constituents of kava, are considered to be pharmacologically active and are sold in Europe and the United States as standardised extracts for anxiety and tension.

A 50 year old man presented to his doctor because of jaundice. He had noticed fatigue for a month, a "tanned" skin, and dark urine. The medical history was unremarkable apart from slight anxiety, for which he had been taking three to four capsules of kava extracts daily for two months (maximum recommended dose three capsules) corresponding to a dose of 210-280 mg lactones (Laitain, Schwabe, Switzerland). He took no other drugs and did not consume alcohol. Liver function tests showed a 60-fold and 70-fold increase in aspartate aminotransferase and alanine aminotransferase concentrations, respectively. Alkaline phosphatase concentration was 430 IU/l (normal range 30-125), -glutamyltransferase 691 IU/l (9-35), lactate dehydrogenase 1132 IU/l (125-240), and total and conjugated bilirubin 279.2 µmol/l (6.8-25) and 212.3 µmol/l (1.7-8.6), respectively. Prothrombin time was 25%. The patient was admitted to hospital. Ultrasonography showed a slight increase in liver size but no ascites or portal vein thrombosis. Blood tests for hepatitis A, B, C, and E, HIV, cytomegalovirus, and Epstein-Barr virus gave negative results. The patient's condition deteriorated within 48 hours. He developed stage IV encephalopathy and had to be intubated. Prothrombin time was then 10%. The patient received a liver transplant two days later. He recovered uneventfully. On examination the liver was atrophic, and the subhepatic and portal veins were free. Histology showed extensive and severe hepatocellular necrosis and extensive lobular and portal infiltration of lymphocytes and numerous eosinophils.

Heavy consumption of kava has been associated with increased concentrations of -glutamyltransferase, suggesting potential hepatotoxicity.1 A case of recurring necrotising hepatitis has been reported.2 In our patient a relation between ingestion of kava and fulminant hepatic failure is supported by the chronology, histological findings, and exclusion of other causes of hepatitis. Assessment of causality according to the definitions of the World Health Organization is probable. Acute liver failure with a fatal outcome or that necessitates liver transplant has been attributed to various herbal preparations.3-5 This case illustrates the importance of inquiring about the use of over the counter health products. It was reported to the Swiss Pharmacovigilance Center in Berne.

 

[MR. BMJ]

Yep that's it...damn that was a good guess. How credible would you guys say this article is? It sounds kind of harsh, and I haven't seen/heard of very many people with liver problems from its use besides the ones from this article. BUT, I am no expert with this herb.
MR. BMJ

 

[cockdezl]

BMJ, I think it is a valid article, since it really is just a case study. All phyto-pharmaceuticals have the potential for harm, and this supports that notion, but you still have to look at the track record of something before jumping the gun. Pacific Islanders have been drinking Kava by the gallons and there IS evidence of side effects by chronic consumption, including icthyosis ("fish skin"), certain types of anemias, lower body weight, obvious cognitive impairment and risk of accidents during Kava intoxication, and an increase in hepatic gamma-glutamyltransferase levels. But these effects are most notable in chronic, "heavy" users of Kava...sounds similar to the US' alcohol problem.

Other authors stated that the increase in hepatic enzyme levels may simply be an induction effect of Kava (similar to steroids altering certain liver enzymes, or phenobarbitol induced liver alterations), and not a true elevation due to damage.

There is no hard evidence that Kava is hepatotoxic, but this is evidence that it has the potential in some.

 

[MR. BMJ]

Thanks cockdezl, i've had this article for awhile and forgot about it. So I guess it's still kind of in limbo then. I'll probably stay away from it until more research is done on it then.

Levonorgesterol....is this stuff easily accessible or not? I will be doing my CKD diet for another 2-4 weeks and could be a guinea pig if I can get it. I've been feeling a little crazy lately. I don't know anything about it though. Is it illegal? Also, where would I even go about getting this stuff, you peaked my interests!!! E-mail me if you feel it is more appropriate, I don't want to ruin George's thread, unless he doesn't mind either. Thanks man!
MR. BMJ

 

[therealj]

cockdezl, not that I just realized it...but you are a wise man

 

[ghans]

Hey George

I really like the original Phenyltropic product. Adding ingredients may make it better, but I'd still like to afford it.

 

[cockdezl]

BMJ, levonorgestrel is a progestagen. It is the active ingredient in Norplant, and one of the "morning after" pills. It is an ingredient in several birth control combinations, but the above two are the only single ingredient products I know of.

 

[George Spellwin]

We are trying to find out a way to go back to the all drug phenyltropic formula.

Wouldn't that be nice!