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Nolva or Proviron?
- Thread starter KayKo
- Start date
solidspine
New member
nolvadex & AIFM
brewers
New member
OK----proviron is not an anti-e! now that ive cleared that up heres what i recommend...50mg proviron ed throughout cycle. nolva on hand but don't take it until signs of gyno. The proviron will free up more test, keep your libido going strong and will help with the bloat a bit. good luck
Be carefull with proviron in that dose...It will dry you out and cause joint pains....usaully right at the 10 day mark...
the 750 range you should be concerned a little some sides
I personally use 20 mg's of nolva...thats all you need...There's nothing that'll shut you down so the proviron wouldnt be necessary.....Proviron is a kick for shutdown remember that....its great for deca and tren....hcg being a little better with tren...
Clomid is for PCT only....clomid 2 weeks after your last injection is the norm
the 750 range you should be concerned a little some sides
I personally use 20 mg's of nolva...thats all you need...There's nothing that'll shut you down so the proviron wouldnt be necessary.....Proviron is a kick for shutdown remember that....its great for deca and tren....hcg being a little better with tren...
Clomid is for PCT only....clomid 2 weeks after your last injection is the norm
brewers said:
Proviron binds with the aromatase enzyme but does not aromatize which makes it an AI (albeit a weak one).
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catprov.htm
Proviron has four distinct uses in the world of bodybuilding. The first being the result of its structure. It is 5-alpha reduced and not capable of forming estrogen, yet it nonetheless has a much higher affinity for the aromatase enzyme (which converts testosterone to estrogen) than testosterone does. That means in administering it with testosterone or another aromatizable compound, it prevents estrogen build-up because it binds to the aromatase enzyme very strongly, thereby preventing these steroids from interacting with it and forming estrogen. So Mesterolone use has the extreme benefit of reducing estrogenic side-effects and water retention noted with other steroids, and as such still help to provide mostly lean gains. Its also been suggested that it may actually downgrade the actual estrogen receptor making it doubly effective at reducing circulating estrogen levels.
The second use is in enhancing the potency of testosterone. Testosterone in the body at normal physiological levels is mostly inactive. As much as 97 or 98 percent of testosterone in that amount is bound to sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) and albumin, two proteins. In such a form testosterone is mostly inactive. But as with the aromatase enzyme, DHT has a higher affinity for these proteins than testosterone does, so when administered simultaneously the mesterolone will attach to the SHBG and albumin, leaving larger amounts of free testosterone to mediate anabolic activities such as protein synthesis. Another way in which it helps to increase gains. Its also another part of the equation that makes it ineffective on its own, as binding to these proteins too, would render it a non-issue at the androgen receptor.
Thirdly, mesterolone is added in pre-contest phases to increase a distinct hardness and muscle density. Probably due to its reduction in circulating estrogen, perhaps due to the downregulating of the estrogen receptor in muscle tissue, it decreases the total water build-up of the body giving its user a much leaner look, and a visual effect of possessing "harder" muscles with more cuts and striations. Proviron is often used as a last-minute secret by a lot of bodybuilders and both actors and models have used it time and again to deliver top shape day in day out, when needed. Like the other methylated DHT compound, drostanolone, mesterolone is particularly potent in achieving this feat.
Lastly Proviron is used during a cycle of certain hormones such as nandrolone, with a distinct lack of androgenic nature, or perhaps 5-alpha reduced hormones that don't have the same affinities as DHT does. Such compounds, thinking of trenbolone, nandrolone and such in particular, have been known to decrease libido. Limiting the athlete to perform sexually being the logical result. DHT plays a key role in this process and is therefore administered in conjunction with such steroids to ease or relieve this annoying side-effect. Proviron is also commonly prescribed by doctors to people with low levels of testosterone, or patients with chronic impotence. Its not perceived as a powerful anabolic, but it gets the job done equally well if not better than other anabolic steroids making it a favorite in medical practices due to its lower chance of abuse.
Big O said:
Any AAS used at 250-300 mg/week or higher will reduce endogenous testosterone production to virtually zero after about 3 weeks.
The nandrolones (deca and tren) cause increased prolactin levels which interfere with post-cycle recovery and the term "shut down" is often applied in this situation.
Some studies have shown that proviron can suppress testosterone production at least in some individuals which would seem to make it a poor choice to try and kick start recovery after "shutdown". However, I personally use proviron during PCT and find that it makes the recovery easier to tolerate and doesn't noticeably prolong recovery for me.
HCG is generally used at the end of (or during) long cycles to avoid the lengthy recovery that can result if the testes are dormant for too long. This is a seperate issue from recovery being hindered by elevated prolactin but HCG may help in the later situation as well.
I do agree that clomid is best suited for PCT.
Ulter said:
Varma TR, Patel RH.
Department of Obstetrics & Gynaecology, St. George's Hospital Medical School London, U.K.
Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment. One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone. One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and 75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml). Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group. Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated. There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.
PMID: 2892728 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
While I'm on correcting mistatements today....
It's less than a week.
The HPTA negative feedback loop is with estrogen, not prolactin. Prolactin levels do not affect the "shut down" or recovery of natural test.
Tren is not nandrolone.
It's less than a week.
The HPTA negative feedback loop is with estrogen, not prolactin. Prolactin levels do not affect the "shut down" or recovery of natural test.
Tren is not nandrolone.
Ulter said:
I see that the tren/deca debate was beat to death on another post. But we all agree that the two are related and are progestagenic.
However, it is well established that elevated prolactin reduces testosterone levels. Here's a quote from the Mayo clinic website (link below):
"The major effect of increased prolactin is a decrease in normal levels of sex hormones — estrogen in women and testosterone in men."
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/prolactinoma/DS00532
To be honest, I don't know if prolactin reduces testosterone through inhibing the HPTA or another mechanism but the end result is the same.
njmuscleguy
New member
Proviron should be used as an adjunct in a cycle to give a boost to libido, particularly when running tren or deca... it *is* a mild anti-e, but in most cases, not strong enough to be relied on solely to reduce estrogen... however, if you do run proviron, you can probably run a lower dosage of whichever AI you choose (Aromasin, AIFM are good choices in my book). Do not use nolva as your AI during a cycle.... again, use Aromasin, AIFM, etc.
Proviron does seem to have lipolytic effects (fat-burning), but I've never heard of it "drying out your joints" and causing joint pain....would like to see studies suggesting that.
Proviron does seem to have lipolytic effects (fat-burning), but I've never heard of it "drying out your joints" and causing joint pain....would like to see studies suggesting that.
brewers
New member
I still don't agree with proviron being lumped in the anti-e category. by binding with the shbg, less of the test is converted to estrogen, but it does not work the way normal anti-e's work. its mechanism is different. regardless, im a huge advocate of proviron throughout a cycle of test. it makes the cycle imho....
macrophage69alpha
New member
brewers said:
proviron is a ER modulator (just as DHT is). Though it is not an aromatase inhibitor (as is often claimed). It binds very strongly to SHBG thus freeing up other hormones.
Reccomend AIFM + proviron during cycle
AIFM + CLOMID + low dose HCG for PCT (you can also use proviron in low doses)
macrophage69alpha
New member
it cannot bind to the aromatase enzyme, 5 alpha reduced androgens dont.
macrophage69alpha said:
Clearly you are more knowledgeable on the subject than I am but I cannot find one source to back you up on that statement.
There is no doubt that 5 alpha reduced androgens don't aromatize to estrogen but that's not the same as saying they cannot bind to aromatase.
Every profile online regarding proviron (including Bill Robert's) refers to proviron's AI effect. The Big Cat profile (as shown above) comes right out and states that proviron has strong binding affinity for aromatase.
I know that the internet can be littered with misinformation, but can you help me make sense of this all?
macrophage69alpha
New member
nydj66 said:
there is just no evidence to this. Big cat cites a 1980 study in his masteron profile, but that study uses flawed logic- it makes conclusions based on assumptions that they did not establish.
proviron does have a very strong binding affinity for SHBG, which will allow for more free test and DHT(particularly more DHT which also has a high affinity for SHBG). Though again these actually upregulate aromatase activity. However DHT and (likely) proviron do modulate ER expression and activity which can give the impression that they inhibit aromatase (however they do not).
brewers said:
But shbg isn't involved in the aromatization of testosterone. Aromatase is what does that. So by freeing up more testosterone to aromatize, proviron should increase estradiol levels.
Macro is saying that proviron's only anti-estrogenic effect is as an ER modulator (similar to nolvadex or clomid). This is expected for a DHT derivative but every other source I can find says proviron is also an AI.
macrophage69alpha
New member
nydj66 said:
not exactly. DHT and likely Proviron modulates ER expression/activity either via AR activity or non-genomic binding site. It does not act in the way that SERM's do, which bind directly and competively to the ER.
...its very interesting how posits become facts..... btw- would be happy to be wrong about proviron being an AI, however to date have seen nothing to substantiate such claims.
macrophage69alpha
New member
AIFM or aromasin (aromasin ED, not EOD)- you can low dose either, but dont reccomend going without.
proviron is fine addition
Clomid (no front load)+ AIFM/AROMASIN + HCG (low dose) for PCT
proviron is fine addition
Clomid (no front load)+ AIFM/AROMASIN + HCG (low dose) for PCT
