Nolva or HCG?

[Swole_2112]

For PCT, what is more effective for returning the natural test production to normal. I've got to make sure I've got a good PCT to avoid a crash while comming off of this cycle:

Weeks 1-5: D-bol 40mg/day
Weeks 1-10: Sust 750mg/day
Weeks 1-10: AIFM 2-3 sprays/day

 

[Hylander]

Have your boys shrunk any during this 10wks?
Nolva should always be included in PCT..IMO.

 

[kbrkbr]

Go with clomid rather than nol.

If your boys haven't shrunk significantly and you're a young man, you might not need hcg. I'm an old fart, so I need both and use hcg throughout.

 

[pentatonic]

I say use HCG regardless of whether you think you had shrinkage, also use Nolva along with HCG, then continue with Nolva only or Nolva/Clomid.

 

[Ulter]

You've already got AIFM so you don't need nolva. Nolva is poor choice anyway. HCG isn't crucial for a test cycle. But you could use it with AIFM and then start clomid when you're done.

 

[Hylander]

I say use HCG regardless of whether you think you had shrinkage, also use Nolva along with HCG, then continue with Nolva only or Nolva/Clomid.

This is the right way to do it,if you do need the HCG.

Going with clomid only will lead to dissapointment and take longer for PCT using only one compound...& thats coming from another old man...at 35.
Clomid is not as "potent" as Nolva,and you would need a stronger dose of it,which will lead to more of the "clomid" sides,which we dont want,also IMO.

HCG always needs Nolva.

EDIT: these are my Opinions only,and they come from my experience.Just sharing what I know and whats worked for me.

 

[Ulter]

Clomid is not as "potent" as Nolva,and you would need a stronger dose of it,which will lead to more of the "clomid" sides,which we dont want,also IMO.

HCG always needs Nolva.

You're going to have to explain this to me. Clomid and Nolva do not do the same thing. Even though some aspects are similar. So how is Nolva more potent? How are you measuring potent?

HCG does not need Nolva. There is not an endocrinologist in the country giving patients Nolva with HCG and the HCG works just fine for them. I agree it should be used with an AI but not Nolva.

 

[mikefear]

I'd run 1000iu of hcg eod for 5 days (3 injects) just to give 'em a little lovin'

then on to the clomid @ 50mg for 3-4 weeks and keep up w/ the AIFM

 

[Swole_2112]

You've already got AIFM so you don't need nolva. Nolva is poor choice anyway. HCG isn't crucial for a test cycle. But you could use it with AIFM and then start clomid when you're done.

Are you saying that AIFM has effects that are similar to the desired effects of HCG as well as the desired effects of AIs like a-dex? If so, what should the post cycle doseage of AIFM be? And, what else should I take with it? Do I (or should I) take anything else with it for PCT? I want a good PCT, and if I can get that with one AI, I'll take it.

 

[Swole_2112]

Go with clomid rather than nol.

If your boys haven't shrunk significantly and you're a young man, you might not need hcg. I'm an old fart, so I need both and use hcg throughout.

I haven't actually started the cycle yet.

 

[pentatonic]

HCG does not need Nolva. There is not an endocrinologist in the country giving patients Nolva with HCG and the HCG works just fine for them. I agree it should be used with an AI but not Nolva.

I disagree, Nolva is fine to use with HCG, IT WORKS, bottom line.

 

[Hylander]

You're going to have to explain this to me. Clomid and Nolva do not do the same thing. Even though some aspects are similar. So how is Nolva more potent? How are you measuring potent?

HCG does not need Nolva. There is not an endocrinologist in the country giving patients Nolva with HCG and the HCG works just fine for them. I agree it should be used with an AI but not Nolva.

Sure.. Here's a quote straight from Anthony Roberts profiles..

Clomid is a drug given to women for use as a fertility aid. It is a SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator) which acts by actually binding to the estrogen receptor and thereby blocking estrogen from doing the same. Clearly, this is advantageous when it binds to breast tissue, and prevents estrogen from binding there to cause gynocomastia (although it is not nearly as effective as nolvadex for this purpose). It also opposes the negative feedback loop that the body has with regards to estrogen and the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular-Axis), and this in turn stimulates LH (Leutenizing Hormone) and FSH (Follicle Stimulating Hormone). LH and FSH, in turn stimulate the release of testosterone. Clearly this is advantageous to bodybuilders and athletes coming off of a cycle, and beginning their post-cycle-therapy. What we have in Clomid is essentially a drug that acts as a preventative measure against gynocomastia, as well as a drug that acts to raise endogenous (natural) testosterone levels. Usually, it is compared with another SERM, Nolvadex, for those reasons.

Clomid, however, is much weaker than nolvadex in a mg for mg comparison, with roughly 150mgs of clomid being equal to 20mgs of nolvadex (1).It should be noted, however, that 150mgs of clomid will still raise testosterone levels to approximately 150% of baseline value(1). You don’t have to use 150mgs, however; In my research, I’ve found that doses as low as 50mgs will show improvements and elevations in testosterone levels (4). In fact, my original Post-Cycle-Therapy regime (as suggested by Dan Duchaine in the original Underground Steroid Handbook) was 100mgs per day for a week and 50mgs/day for a week. Don’t laugh…for the late 90’s,when most anabolic steroid users didn’t even know how to use Clomid, it was considered a “state of the art” PCT routine. I suspect that Duchaine originally introduced this compound to the steroid using community.

EDIT: One last quote..heck,maybe Anthony will chime in on this.

Clomid as of late has fallen out of favor for post-cycle routines, but if you aren’t prone to vision problems or emotional issues, then it is just as good as nolvadex for raising testosterone when appropriate doses are used. I recommend using 150mgs/day for ten days, and decreasing the dose by 50mgs every ten days until you’re finished at day 30. Many of the bodybuilders and athletes I've spoken to have used it in a similar fashion and found that it restores their testosterone levels to normal.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

AIFM suppresses estrogen (estrogen is the primary suppressor of the HPGA, HCG's primary role is to kickstart an suppressed HPGA- it actually does nothing to restore LH production, it actually does the opposite which is why HCG alone is bad PCT).

1-2 pumps (2-3 if using HCG which stimulates aromatase)

generally reccomend AIFM and clomid (50mg no frontload)

people do run AIFM alone with good results, but as noted generally reccomend AIFM + clomid.

 

[medrep]

AIFM suppresses estrogen (estrogen is the primary suppressor of the HPGA, HCG's primary role is to kickstart an suppressed HPGA- it actually does nothing to restore LH production, it actually does the opposite which is why HCG alone is bad PCT).

1-2 pumps (2-3 if using HCG which stimulates aromatase)

generally reccomend AIFM and clomid (50mg no frontload)

people do run AIFM alone with good results, but as noted generally reccomend AIFM + clomid.

I 100% attest to this, ended a 500mg test e and 50mg winny cycle with ONLY AIFM and clomid and felt great

I'm wondering if clomid can be used "during" instead of hcg when the boys start to ache?

 

[macrophage69alpha]

yes, 3-4 days at 50mg.

 

[Ulter]

Sure.. Here's a quote straight from Anthony Roberts profiles..






EDIT: One last quote..heck,maybe Anthony will chime in on this.

Oh okay. So you have no idea. You're taking AR comments out of context and misapplying them. What he said was that clomid is weaker mg per mg. Which is actually meaningless because they aren't dosed mg per mg.
And the bottom line is that Nolva, when dosed correctly compared to Clomid when dosed correctly, is not stronger or better for PCT than Clomid.

 

[Hylander]

Oh okay. So you have no idea. You're taking AR comments out of context and misapplying them. What he said was that clomid is weaker mg per mg. Which is actually meaningless because they aren't dosed mg per mg.
And the bottom line is that Nolva, when dosed correctly compared to Clomid when dosed correctly, is not stronger or better for PCT than Clomid.

First off...you sound bitter,whys that?
Because I quoted AR,that means I dont know what Im talking about? c'mon.

And the bottom line is that Nolva, when dosed correctly compared to Clomid when dosed correctly, is not stronger or better for PCT than Clomid

I said going with Clomid only.. alone is not a suitable PCT. I stand by that.

 

[Ulter]

I'm not bitter. You're quoting AR and mis-applying what he said. Now, first of all AR is nobody I would ever quote as an authority on anything. But when you do you should at least use what he writes in context.

You can stand by Clomid only is not suitable PCT. I don't care. You're wrong though.
I've been doing this a whole lot longer than you have and I've seen literally thousands of men using Clomid only and doing just fine with their PCT. Now I can't say the same about Nolva. I have seen outright disasters using Nolva only for PCT. From having it ignite gyno when used after a deca cycle to complete loss of libido by the 2nd week of PCT. The most recent cases of that are just last month on this board.

I'm not bitter at all. Just sayin'...

 

[Swole_2112]

AIFM suppresses estrogen (estrogen is the primary suppressor of the HPGA, HCG's primary role is to kickstart an suppressed HPGA- it actually does nothing to restore LH production, it actually does the opposite which is why HCG alone is bad PCT).

1-2 pumps (2-3 if using HCG which stimulates aromatase)

generally reccomend AIFM and clomid (50mg no frontload)

people do run AIFM alone with good results, but as noted generally reccomend AIFM + clomid.

Ok. You're going to have to educate me with regard to the purpose of HPGA. What is HPGA and what does it do?

Also, what exactly, does clomid do? Why is it advised to be taken with the AIFM? And, what about depression with clomid?