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nelsons stuff???
- Thread starter GLEN
- Start date
A
Anthony Roberts
Guest
Nelson Montana said:
Exactly what I've been saying. Exactly why YOU are here and THEY are not.
Anthony Roberts said:
For some reason this study seems a lot more legit than the nineteen page Sopharma ad.
Tribulus blows. Let it go.
V
VooDooChild
Guest
Anthony Roberts said:
Since when does someones weight discredit them for knowledge of this sport? You and Nelson said so yourselfs, that the biggest guy in the gym is not necessarily the smartest. Seems like you are discrediting an individual who weighs 160, and has knowledge..
A
Anthony Roberts
Guest
VooDooChild said:
I'm not 100% sure which comment you're talking about....
V
VooDooChild
Guest
Nelson Montana said:
I know that those compounds arent approved, but they do work..
But, I also could care less if the govt regulated supplements, I think pretty much everyone of them is bullshit anyways.. And the only ones that I do use occasionally is glutamine, creatine, and isopure.
As for numbers sounding good, anthony makes the numbers sound good with myogenx, but if you read between the lines myogenx doesnt raise base test levels 200% like he claims.. And still, there is no clinical or human studies yet. And there probably never will be..(maybe roberts would care to respond)
And as for AIFM, this board was all about that product when macro and utler were here. Since they are no longer with us, the product is made to be a joke..
Let me ask you this, are your supplements or anthonys approved by the FDA? And if so, which ones?
A
Anthony Roberts
Guest
VooDooChild said:
MyoGenX has before and after bloodwork, if you want to see it, from a member of steroid.com who purchased it himself, and even paid for the bloodwork himself as well.
I think he got an 800% increase, or something like that.
We didn't pay him, comp him bottles...nothing.
Makes you wonder why there's bloodwork already posted on my product, on Dermacrine, yet Micropenis and Ulcer never got any donen for AIFM...and it's been on the market far longer...
Things that make you go Hmmmm....
AIFM was a joke long before they were gone...just not on EF or the boards they paid to control.
V
VooDooChild
Guest
Anthony Roberts said:
nelsons..post 98
I wouldn't call baseless accusations being "exposed." Oh wait, Juice Authority exposed me. He was the guy who argues with me about how off base I was about Clomid, then went on the board crying that it didn't work for him.
And yeah, Fonzie exposed me. You know, the guy who was kicked off for scamming.
Then again there was Ulter, the roid expert who stayed on year round. He's the one who weighs 160 pounds in case you didn't recognize him.
Or maybe it was someone else yo're thinking of. The fat diet guru? The guy who pretended to be a chemist and wound up in jail? The guy who died from DNP? Or is it the what's his name -- Fast400? You know. The bodybuilding expert who admits he never weight trained.
All this "exposure" really hurts my credibility -- if you're a moron.
V
VooDooChild
Guest
Anthony Roberts said:
Wow, 1 member posted bloodwork. Thats enough for me, Im sold!
I think I seen that one, that whole thing was pretty sketchy if you ask me.. can you post the link please, so i can be refreshed!
KrackerJam
New member
question:
approx what % increase in test does the normal person see in a cycle of 250mg a week of test e?
approx what % increase in test does the normal person see in a cycle of 250mg a week of test e?
A
Anthony Roberts
Guest
VooDooChild said:
Ok...I didn't make that particular comment, and I think it's a little out of context...but in the end, I actually (personally) think Larry (Ulter) did ok with his physique. He never wanted to be huge and just really wanted to be cut. I don't really think people honestly viewed him as a steroid expert for the most part. I really just viewed him as a businessman, because whenever there was a real or difficult question about AAS, he let Scott (Macro) speak for him and their company.
R
Ross
Guest
Anthony, you and I go WAYYY back.
Nelson, you possess a WEALTH of valuable bodybuilding information.
You KNOW that I respect you BOTH....
Having said that, I FERVENTLY disagree with your assessment of Tribulus.
Aside from the clinical studies, I have had MANY GREAT PERSONAL EXPERIENCES with several different high QUALITY TRIBULUS EXTRACTS( Tribex, Tribestan, Tribosten)
Believe it or not, Tribulus DOES increase strength and libido, most likely, via an increase in LH.
PLEASE READ THIS. It's essentially irrefutable:
Pharmacodynamics
Hormonal and Sexual Activity
Oral doses of TLSE have demonstrated the following effects in vivo:
** Marked stimulation of spermatogenesis, increased density of Sertoli cells, increased tenacity and viability of spermatozoa, and accelerated and emphasized sexual activity in rats (70 mg/kg/day). (12) Female rats treated with the saponin fraction produced more offspring. (6)
** Increased plasma testosterone concentrations compared to controls in male lambs and rams (250 mg/day); acceleration of sexual development, activation of spermatogenesis and stimulation of seminiferous tubule growth in immature sheep. (13)
** Increased testosterone levels, improved semen production and normalized sexual activity in rams with sexual impotence; no morphologic changes in the structure of either testes or epididymides were observed during the treatment period. (14)
** Restored libido and sexual reflexes in 71% of boars suffering absence of libido. Five animals with prolonged poor libido also improved (70 mg/kg/day). (15)
** Aphrodisiac activity in a rat model, which was attributed to an androgenic effect (5 mg/kg/day orally). (16)
** A dose-dependent increase in body weight, penile intracavernous pressure (related to improved erectile function) and sexual activity in rats given oral doses ranging from 2.5 to 10 mg/kg/day. (17)
Tonic and Adaptogenic Activity
TLSE increased the nonspecific resistance in mice with experimental lung infection. The protective effect was based on the activation of alveolar macrophages. (18) Studies indicate that TLSE intensifies protein synthesis and enhances the activity of some enzymes connected with energy metabolism. (19)
TLSE (oral; 100 mg/kg/day for 5 days) increased static physical endurance in rats. Treatment with a related formulation (oral; 300 mg/kg/day for 1 month) markedly increased endurance and (by injection) accelerated the restoration process after heavy exercise. (20) The mechanism of improved endurance was probably not directly connected with the adrenergic system. The preparation did not stimulate the CNS and its mechanism of action was different from that of psychostimulants. (19,20) The same formulation improved resistance to stress and endurance in vivo compared to controls. It increased the concentration of dopamine and serotonin metabolites and the levels of noradrenaline in the hypothalamus. (21)
Pharmacokinetics
Pharmacokinetic studies of TLSE in rats indicated that 12 to 14% of administered protodioscin is excreted in the bile and 6 to 7% in the urine (at 24 hours) when delivered intravenously (50 and 200 mg/kg). After oral administration of the same individual doses, 2 to 4% of protodioscin was apparently excreted in the bile, but protodioscin was not detected in the urine. (22) However, the researchers may have mistaken glucuronide conjugates of furostanol aglycones for protodioscin (see Toxicology below).
Toxicology
LD50 values for acute oral administration of TLSE in both mice and rats were greater than 10 g/kg, indicating very low toxicity. No lethality, change in behavior or changes in biochemical indices were observed in rats orally administered doses ranging from 75 mg/kg to 300 mg/kg for 30 and 90 days, or dogs receiving 75 mg/kg for 180 days. (23) Oral administration of TLSE at 50 mg/kg/day or 150 mg/kg/day for 93 weeks did not induce evidence of carcinogenicity. (24)
Consumption of Tribulus by livestock, especially sheep, has lead to the photosensitization syndrome known as geeldikkop (yellow thick head) in South Africa, Australia and Argentina. (25-27) The ingested saponins are rapidly hydrolyzed in the rumen, releasing free sapogenins. Most of the sapogenins (especially diosgenin and yamogenin) are rapidly converted by ruminal microflora to epismilagenin and episarsapogenin which are absorbed. These are conjugated with glucuronic acid in the liver and excreted in the bile as calcium salts of the sapogenin glucuronides. These salts are insoluble in high amounts and precipitate in the bile ducts as crystals. The resultant disruption of bile excretion results in retention of phylloerythrin (a photodynamic chlorophyll metabolite) and induction of photosensitization. (27) This reaction has not been observed in humans and is unlikely, given the large quantities needed to trigger this process and the unique link with ruminant digestive flora.
Ingestion of Tribulus can also cause a unique neuromuscular disorder in sheep, known as tribulus staggers which has been attributed to the accumulation of the harmala alkaloids in the blood over a period of time. (9) This has not been observed in humans and is highly unlikely at the recommended dosage. Also the presence of harmala alkaloids in Tribulus is disputed. (10)
Clinical Studies
Male Infertility and Impotence
The results of open clinical trials conducted by four Bulgarian research teams, including a total of 363 men, indicated that TLSE had a stimulating effect on sexual function. (28-32)
** Treatment with 750 mg for 60 days significantly increased motility and rate of movement of spermatozoa from 38 men with idiopathic oligospermia. In some cases, after repeated treatment at a dosage of 1500 mg/day, a normalization of the sperm profile was observed, accompanied by an increased serum level of LH and testosterone and decreased estradiol.
** Two groups of men with oligospermia after varicocele operation were treated with either 750 mg for 60 days or 1500 mg for 90 days. Significant improvement in sperm motility was observed in both groups. Treatment with 1500 mg also resulted in an increase in ejaculate quantity in all patients.
** Patients with unilateral or bilateral hypotrophy of the testes and oligospermia demonstrated improvement in ejaculate volume, spermatozoal concentration and motility after treatment (1500 mg/day, 60 days). Testosterone levels were also increased. A light palpable pain in the testicular region with slight edema was reported by patients during the treatment, which abated 2 to 3 months after treatment.
** Treatment of 51 infertile males with 750 mg/day TLSE for 3 months significantly increased ejaculate volume, spermatozoa concentration, motility and velocity. Spermatozoa morphology normalized and ejaculate liquefaction time decreased. Semen immune parameters decreased: leukocyte counts, [alpha]-amylase values (an enzyme involved in ejaculate liquefaction), and secretion of local immunoglobulins. Cholesterol, LDL, triglycerides and VLDL decreased and HDL increased. Libido was normalized or enhanced in those reporting poor libido.
** Thirty-one pregnancies were recorded for 100 couples with infertility involving an immunological cause within 12 months of initiating TLSE treatment. The average time taken to conceive was 5.2 months. Prior to treatment spermatozoa number and quality varied between males, but all males and 74% of females had abnormal results for sperm-agglutinating antibody tests. The dosage used was 750 mg/day for males and 750 mg/day from days 21 to 27 of the menstrual cycle for females until conception.
** Improvement in sperm profile was not observed in patients with chronic prostatitis (750 to 1500 mg/day).
** Of 14 patients suffering reduced libido, 12 showed considerable improvement after 30 days (1500 mg/day) and one patient was slightly improved after 60 days' treatment. Libido was improved in 27 of 36 patients with chronic prostatitis. The other nine patients, with chronic prostatitis for over 5 years, demonstrated no improvement. Libido was incidentally improved in patients with hypotrophy of the testes and idiopathic oligospermia.
** Libido and sexual activity were improved in some patients with Klinefelter's syndrome (genetic hypogonadism), Noonan syndrome (a multifaceted disorder which includes cryptorchidism) and simple cryptorchidism.
** TLSE was well-tolerated in all of the above studies.
Tribulus has been part of a number of herbal formulations successfully used in uncontrolled clinical trials in India and Russia to treat sexual dysfunction or sexual inadequacy in men. The main formulations contained 7 to 12.5% of Tribulus by weight. Improvement in sexual function was observed in convalescing postmyocardial infarction male patients, (33) and in leprosy patients experiencing testicular and epididymal changes. Patients with oligospermia showed objective improvement. (34) Impotence and loss of libido improved in male diabetics. (35) Improvement was observed in men with impotence. (36,37) Sperm count and motility improved in approximately 60 to 70% of subfertile and oligospermic men. (38,39)
Female Infertility
In an open study involving infertile women, TLSE (750 to 1500 mg) was administered every day for 2 to 3 months (Group 1), only on days 5 to 14 of the menstrual cycle for 2 to 3 months (Group 2), or used in the preovulatory phase in combination with an ovulation stimulant for 3 months (Group 3). (15) Group 1 did not show improvement in the ovulation parameters measured and side effects were observed, especially when the treatment was abruptly terminated. Of the 36 women in Group 2, 6% of women experienced normalized ovulation with resultant pregnancy, 61% demonstrated normalized ovulation without pregnancy and 33% demonstrated no effect from treatment. Parallel control studies on a comparable cohort were carried out utilizing three conventional ovulation stimulants. The best results were obtained with 62 women treated using epimestrol: 39% had normalized ovulation with pregnancy, 35% had normalized ovulation without pregnancy and 26% demonstrated no effect from treatment. No side effects were recorded for the TLSE group, compared with an incident rate of 6.5%, 10.6% and 38% in women treated with the ovulation stimulants. For the 20 women treated with TLSE and an ovulation stimulant (Group 3), the effect from their combined use was better than treatment with either single agent.
Menopause
In an open study, 98% of 50 menopausal women experienced some symptom improvement after TLSE treatment, but not after placebo. Fifty-two percent of patients were experiencing natural menopause and 48% had postoperative symptoms after removal of their ovaries. Predominant symptoms included hot flashes, sweating, insomnia and depression. The dosage prescribed varied, but generally a maintenance dose of 500 to 750 mg/day of TLSE was reached after higher initial doses. Treatment did not result in significant changes in FSH, LH, prolactin, estradiol, progesterone and testosterone, although FSH tended to be lower. (15)
Body Composition and Exercise Performance
TLSE given for 8 weeks at a daily dose of 3.21 mg/kg did not enhance body composition or exercise performance in eight resistance-trained males when coupled with a resistance-training program in a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial. The authors concede that the lack of improvement in body composition in both groups may be attributed to the fact that these subjects were already lean and may not have consumed enough protein or calories to gain lean body mass. In addition, the method chosen to assess exercise performance was not the most objective measure available. (40) The dose of TLSE used was low (240 to 260 mg/day).
Other Conditions
In an open trial of 406 patients with coronary artery disease treated with saponins isolated from Tribulus, improvement was observed for angina pectoris and for ECG readings of myocardial ischemia. The saponin fraction was said to dilate the coronary arteries and improve coronary circulation. No side effects or adverse reactions on blood, hepatic or renal functions were observed. (41)
Mechanism of Action
TLSE (750 mg/day for 5 days) increased serum FSH and estradiol compared to baseline values in human female volunteers and increased the level of LH and testosterone in male volunteers, (42) thus demonstrating increased sex hormone production in both men and women. In other words, the sexual and tonic activities of Tribulus may not result from a direct hormonal activity of the saponins or direct effects on the gonadal tissue. Instead, they could be mediated at the level of the hypothalamus or pituitary.
It has been suggested in one article that protodioscin is converted in the human body into DHEA. (43) There is no sound evidence to support such a speculation.
Quality Issues
Two studies have highlighted that most Tribulus products on the market are quite different from the Bulgarian extract (TLSE). (44,45) The first study, conducted in the US, found that the level of protodioscin varied substantially with the plant part (leaf, stem or fruit) and origin (Bulgaria, India or China) of the Tribulus. (44) Only leaf from Bulgaria was high in protodioscin. Analysis of products selected from the US market found deficiencies of protodioscin in the majority.
The second study from Australia produced similar results. (45) An Eastern European variety of Tribulus (from Slovakia) contained high levels of protodioscin in the leaf but none in the fruit. Leaf from Australia and India did not contain protodioscin.
The principle of phytoequivalence dictates that, if the benefits demonstrated in a clinical trial are claimed for a herbal product, then that product must closely match the one used in the clinical trial. The Bulgarian clinical trials which have shown that Tribulus boosts libido and fertility and alleviates menopausal symptoms, all used Tribulus leaf rich in protodioscin collected from Bulgaria. Therefore only similar products might reasonably be expected to have the same effects. If a Tribulus product is made from the root or fruit of the plant, or is sourced from anywhere else other than Eastern Europe, it will probably contain low levels of protodioscin and so will be quite different from the Bulgarian standardized extract. This is despite what might be claimed on the label for such products, because often inferior methods of analysis have been used to measure the furostanol saponins, such as gravimetric or colorimetric techniques. The quality of Tribulus products is best assessed by high performance liquid chromatography as used in the two studies cited above.
Clinical Summary
Actions
Tonic, aphrodisiac, estrogenic in females (indirectly), androgenic in males (indirectly), fertility agent.
Recommended Therapeutic Uses
** Male erectile dysfunction
** Male and female infertility
** Menopausal symptoms
** Decreased libido in men and women
** To restore or build vitality (especially during convalescence or after surgery) and to assist in responding to stress; to improve physical performance.
Dosage and Administration
The recommended adult dosage for the hormonal effects is one tablet of standardized concentrate, containing 100 mg of furostanol saponins (calculated as protodioscin), three to four times per day. Higher doses may be necessary in some cases, especially for male impotence.
Suggested Combinations
Tribulus combines well with damiana, Korean ginseng, saw palmetto or ashwaganda (Withania somnifera) in male sexual inadequacy and infertility and low libido in women; black cohosh or wild yam in menopause; and ashwaganda, Eleutherococcus or Korean ginseng for tonic use.
Adverse Reactions
As with all saponin-containing herbs, oral intake may cause esophageal reflux and irritation of the gastric mucous membranes.
Contraindications and Cautions
According to Traditional Chinese Medicine, Tribulus should be used with caution in pregnancy. (46) If Tribulus is being used to promote fertility in women, its use is best stopped after pregnancy is established. While it is unlikely that normal human doses of Tribulus leaf would cause cholestasis, this should be considered in unexplained cases of cholestasis in patients taking Tribulus. Steroidal saponin-containing herbs such as Tribulus are best kept to a minimum in patients with pre-existing cholestasis.
Male Infertility: Clinical Anecdotes
These have been provided by Dr. Therese Lovell, MD. (47)
Case 1
A 42-year-old male with very low sperm count, 38% abnormal forms and poor motility. No pregnancy with unprotected sex (same partner) for last 7 years.
Therapy: One tablet* b.i.d. Wife was pregnant before the 3 months when I planned to repeat his semen analysis.
Case 2
A 59-year-old male unable to fertilize his partner's egg outside of the IVF laboratory using ICSI (intracytoplasmic sperm injection). To date only one successful pregnancy resulted from ICSI which miscarried before/at 9 weeks.
Therapy: One tablet* b.i.d. At the 3 month review week we discovered his partner is pregnant ... with no IVF intervention! A natural cycle, spontaneous insemination had occurred.
Acknowledgments
The contribution of Michelle Morgan and Janice McMillan in the preparation of this article in gratefully acknowledged.
*This tablet contained Tribulus terrestris herb, standardized for 100 mg furostanol saponins as protodioscin.
References
1. Kapoor LD, CRC Handbook of Ayurvedic Medicinal Plants. Boca Raton: CRC Press, 1990; p 325
2. Frawley D, Lad V. The Yoga of Herbs: An Ayurvedic Guide to Herbal Medicine, 2nd Edition. Santa Fe: Lotus Press, 1988: pp 169-170
3. Thakur RS, Puri HS, Husain A. Major Medicinal Plants of India. Lucknow: Central Institute of Medicinal and Aromatic Plants, 1989: pp 506-509
4. Bensky D, Gamble A. Chinese Herbal Medicine Materia Medica. Seattle: Eastland Press, 1986: pp 607-608
5. Gjulernetowa R, Tomowa M, Simowa M et al. Pharmazie 1982; 37: 296
6. Tomova M, Gyulemetova R, Zarkova S et al. Int Conf Chem Biotechnol Biol Act Nat Prod (Proc) 1st. 1981; 3: 298
7. Yan W, Ohtani K, Kasai R et al. Phytochem 1996; 42: 1417
8. Mahato SB, Sahu NP, Ganguly AN et al. J Chem Soc Perk Trans 1981; 1: 2405
9. Bourke CA, Stevens GR, Carrigan MJ. Aust Vet J 1992; 69: 163
10. Personal communication from Dr R Lehmann, General Manager Research & Development, MediHerb Research Laboratories, September 2004.
11. Hostettmann K, Marston A, Chemistry & Pharmacology of Natural Products: Saponins. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1995.
12. Zarkova S. Rev Port Ciencias Vet 1984; 79: 117
13. Georgiev P, Dimitrov M, Vitanov S. Vet Sb 1988; 3: 20
14. Dimitrov M, Georgiev P, Vitanov S. Vet Med Nauki 1987; 24: 102
15. Zarkova S. Tribestan: Experimental and Clinical Investigations. Chemical Pharmaceutical Research Institute, Sofia, Bulgaria.
16. Gautharnan K, Adaikan PG, Prasad RN. Life Sci 2002; 71: 1385
17. Gauthaman K, Ganesan AP, Prasad RN. J Altern Complement Med 2003; 9: 257
18. Toshkov A, Dimov V, Zarkova S. MBI: Medicobiologic Information 1985; p 28
19. Taskov M. MBI: Medicobiologic Information 1988; 1: 3
20. Taskov M. MBI: Medicobiologic Information 1988; 1: 4
21. Tyutyulkova N, Taskov M, Manolova B. MBI: Medicobiologic Information 1988; 6: 27
22. Dikova N, Ognyanova V. Anniversary Scientific Session: 35 Years Chemical Pharmaceutical Research Institute, Sofia, Bulgaria, March 22-23, 1983.
23. Tanev G, Zarkova S. Toxicological studies on Tribestan, cited in Zarkova S. Tribestan: Experimental and Clinical Investigations. Chemical Pharmaceutical Research Institute, Sofia, Bulgaria.
24. Gendzhev Z. Tr Nauchnoizsled Khim Farm Inst 1985; 15: 241-250
25. Tapia MO, Giordano MA, Gueper HG. Vet Hum Toxicol 1994; 36(4): 311-313
26. Glastonbury JR, Doughty FR, Whitaker SJ et al. Aust Vet J 1984; 61(10): 314-316
27. Waller GR, Yamasaki K (eds). Saponins used in Food and Agriculture. Advances in Experimental Medicine and Biology, Volume 405. New York: Plenum Press, 1996: pp 381-382
28. Protich M, Tsvetkov D, Nalbanski B et al. Akush Ginekol 1983; 22: 326
29. Kumanov F. Bozadzhieva E, Andreeva M et al. Savr Med 1982; 4: 211
30. Viktorov IV, Kaloyanov AL, Lilov L et al. MBI: Medicobiologic Information 1982, cited in Zarkova S. Tribestan: Experimental and Clinical Investigations. Chemical Pharmaceutical Research Institute, Sofia, Bulgaria.
31. Nikolova V, Stanislavov R. Dokl Bolg Akad Nauk 2000; 53: 113
32. Stanislavov R, Nikolova V. Dokl Bolg Akad Nauk 2000; 53: 107
33. Nikolaeva LF, Dedov II, Kurbanov VA. Kardiologiia 1986; 26: 82
34. Nigam P, Mukhija RD, Gupta AK et al. Hansenol Int 1984; 9: 10
35. Sathyanathan TJ. Indian Med Gaz 1985; 119: 196
36. Sankaran JR. J Natl Integ Med Ass 1984; 26: 315
37. Misra DN, Shukla GD. Indian Med Gaz 1984; 118: 322
38. Pardanani DS, Delima RJ, Rao RV et al. Indian J Surg 1976; 38: 34
39. Dandapat MC, Mohapatro SK, Patro SK. Indian Med Gaz 1985; 119: 14
40. Antonio J, Uelmen J, Rodriguez R et al. Int J Sport Nutr Excer Metab 2000; 10: 280
41. Wang B, Ma L, Liu T. Chung His I Chieh Ho Tsa Chih 1990; 10: 85
42. Milanov S, Maleeva E, Taskov M. MBI: Medicobiologic Information 1985; 4: 27
43. Adimoelja A. Int J Androl 2000; 23 Suppl 2 82-84
44. Ganzera M, Bedir E, Khan IA. J Pharm Sci 2001; 90: 1752
45. Lehmann RP, Penman KG, Halloran KG. Revista de Fitoterapia 2002; 2(S1): 217 (Abstract B006)
46. Bensky D, Gamble A, Chinese Herbal Medicine Materia Medica. Seattle: Eastland Press, 1986.
47. Lovell T. Modern Phytotherapist 2001; 6(2): 21
by Kerry Bone, FNIMH, FNHAA
P.O. Box 713 * Warwick QLD 4370, Australia
+61 7 4661 0700 * Fax +61 7 46610788 * www.mediherb.com
FNIMH = Fellow, National Institute of Medical Herbalists (UK)
FNHAA = Fellow, National Herbalists Association of Australia
Nelson, you possess a WEALTH of valuable bodybuilding information.
You KNOW that I respect you BOTH....
Having said that, I FERVENTLY disagree with your assessment of Tribulus.
Aside from the clinical studies, I have had MANY GREAT PERSONAL EXPERIENCES with several different high QUALITY TRIBULUS EXTRACTS( Tribex, Tribestan, Tribosten)
Believe it or not, Tribulus DOES increase strength and libido, most likely, via an increase in LH.
PLEASE READ THIS. It's essentially irrefutable:
Pharmacodynamics
Hormonal and Sexual Activity
Oral doses of TLSE have demonstrated the following effects in vivo:
** Marked stimulation of spermatogenesis, increased density of Sertoli cells, increased tenacity and viability of spermatozoa, and accelerated and emphasized sexual activity in rats (70 mg/kg/day). (12) Female rats treated with the saponin fraction produced more offspring. (6)
** Increased plasma testosterone concentrations compared to controls in male lambs and rams (250 mg/day); acceleration of sexual development, activation of spermatogenesis and stimulation of seminiferous tubule growth in immature sheep. (13)
** Increased testosterone levels, improved semen production and normalized sexual activity in rams with sexual impotence; no morphologic changes in the structure of either testes or epididymides were observed during the treatment period. (14)
** Restored libido and sexual reflexes in 71% of boars suffering absence of libido. Five animals with prolonged poor libido also improved (70 mg/kg/day). (15)
** Aphrodisiac activity in a rat model, which was attributed to an androgenic effect (5 mg/kg/day orally). (16)
** A dose-dependent increase in body weight, penile intracavernous pressure (related to improved erectile function) and sexual activity in rats given oral doses ranging from 2.5 to 10 mg/kg/day. (17)
Tonic and Adaptogenic Activity
TLSE increased the nonspecific resistance in mice with experimental lung infection. The protective effect was based on the activation of alveolar macrophages. (18) Studies indicate that TLSE intensifies protein synthesis and enhances the activity of some enzymes connected with energy metabolism. (19)
TLSE (oral; 100 mg/kg/day for 5 days) increased static physical endurance in rats. Treatment with a related formulation (oral; 300 mg/kg/day for 1 month) markedly increased endurance and (by injection) accelerated the restoration process after heavy exercise. (20) The mechanism of improved endurance was probably not directly connected with the adrenergic system. The preparation did not stimulate the CNS and its mechanism of action was different from that of psychostimulants. (19,20) The same formulation improved resistance to stress and endurance in vivo compared to controls. It increased the concentration of dopamine and serotonin metabolites and the levels of noradrenaline in the hypothalamus. (21)
Pharmacokinetics
Pharmacokinetic studies of TLSE in rats indicated that 12 to 14% of administered protodioscin is excreted in the bile and 6 to 7% in the urine (at 24 hours) when delivered intravenously (50 and 200 mg/kg). After oral administration of the same individual doses, 2 to 4% of protodioscin was apparently excreted in the bile, but protodioscin was not detected in the urine. (22) However, the researchers may have mistaken glucuronide conjugates of furostanol aglycones for protodioscin (see Toxicology below).
Toxicology
LD50 values for acute oral administration of TLSE in both mice and rats were greater than 10 g/kg, indicating very low toxicity. No lethality, change in behavior or changes in biochemical indices were observed in rats orally administered doses ranging from 75 mg/kg to 300 mg/kg for 30 and 90 days, or dogs receiving 75 mg/kg for 180 days. (23) Oral administration of TLSE at 50 mg/kg/day or 150 mg/kg/day for 93 weeks did not induce evidence of carcinogenicity. (24)
Consumption of Tribulus by livestock, especially sheep, has lead to the photosensitization syndrome known as geeldikkop (yellow thick head) in South Africa, Australia and Argentina. (25-27) The ingested saponins are rapidly hydrolyzed in the rumen, releasing free sapogenins. Most of the sapogenins (especially diosgenin and yamogenin) are rapidly converted by ruminal microflora to epismilagenin and episarsapogenin which are absorbed. These are conjugated with glucuronic acid in the liver and excreted in the bile as calcium salts of the sapogenin glucuronides. These salts are insoluble in high amounts and precipitate in the bile ducts as crystals. The resultant disruption of bile excretion results in retention of phylloerythrin (a photodynamic chlorophyll metabolite) and induction of photosensitization. (27) This reaction has not been observed in humans and is unlikely, given the large quantities needed to trigger this process and the unique link with ruminant digestive flora.
Ingestion of Tribulus can also cause a unique neuromuscular disorder in sheep, known as tribulus staggers which has been attributed to the accumulation of the harmala alkaloids in the blood over a period of time. (9) This has not been observed in humans and is highly unlikely at the recommended dosage. Also the presence of harmala alkaloids in Tribulus is disputed. (10)
Clinical Studies
Male Infertility and Impotence
The results of open clinical trials conducted by four Bulgarian research teams, including a total of 363 men, indicated that TLSE had a stimulating effect on sexual function. (28-32)
** Treatment with 750 mg for 60 days significantly increased motility and rate of movement of spermatozoa from 38 men with idiopathic oligospermia. In some cases, after repeated treatment at a dosage of 1500 mg/day, a normalization of the sperm profile was observed, accompanied by an increased serum level of LH and testosterone and decreased estradiol.
** Two groups of men with oligospermia after varicocele operation were treated with either 750 mg for 60 days or 1500 mg for 90 days. Significant improvement in sperm motility was observed in both groups. Treatment with 1500 mg also resulted in an increase in ejaculate quantity in all patients.
** Patients with unilateral or bilateral hypotrophy of the testes and oligospermia demonstrated improvement in ejaculate volume, spermatozoal concentration and motility after treatment (1500 mg/day, 60 days). Testosterone levels were also increased. A light palpable pain in the testicular region with slight edema was reported by patients during the treatment, which abated 2 to 3 months after treatment.
** Treatment of 51 infertile males with 750 mg/day TLSE for 3 months significantly increased ejaculate volume, spermatozoa concentration, motility and velocity. Spermatozoa morphology normalized and ejaculate liquefaction time decreased. Semen immune parameters decreased: leukocyte counts, [alpha]-amylase values (an enzyme involved in ejaculate liquefaction), and secretion of local immunoglobulins. Cholesterol, LDL, triglycerides and VLDL decreased and HDL increased. Libido was normalized or enhanced in those reporting poor libido.
** Thirty-one pregnancies were recorded for 100 couples with infertility involving an immunological cause within 12 months of initiating TLSE treatment. The average time taken to conceive was 5.2 months. Prior to treatment spermatozoa number and quality varied between males, but all males and 74% of females had abnormal results for sperm-agglutinating antibody tests. The dosage used was 750 mg/day for males and 750 mg/day from days 21 to 27 of the menstrual cycle for females until conception.
** Improvement in sperm profile was not observed in patients with chronic prostatitis (750 to 1500 mg/day).
** Of 14 patients suffering reduced libido, 12 showed considerable improvement after 30 days (1500 mg/day) and one patient was slightly improved after 60 days' treatment. Libido was improved in 27 of 36 patients with chronic prostatitis. The other nine patients, with chronic prostatitis for over 5 years, demonstrated no improvement. Libido was incidentally improved in patients with hypotrophy of the testes and idiopathic oligospermia.
** Libido and sexual activity were improved in some patients with Klinefelter's syndrome (genetic hypogonadism), Noonan syndrome (a multifaceted disorder which includes cryptorchidism) and simple cryptorchidism.
** TLSE was well-tolerated in all of the above studies.
Tribulus has been part of a number of herbal formulations successfully used in uncontrolled clinical trials in India and Russia to treat sexual dysfunction or sexual inadequacy in men. The main formulations contained 7 to 12.5% of Tribulus by weight. Improvement in sexual function was observed in convalescing postmyocardial infarction male patients, (33) and in leprosy patients experiencing testicular and epididymal changes. Patients with oligospermia showed objective improvement. (34) Impotence and loss of libido improved in male diabetics. (35) Improvement was observed in men with impotence. (36,37) Sperm count and motility improved in approximately 60 to 70% of subfertile and oligospermic men. (38,39)
Female Infertility
In an open study involving infertile women, TLSE (750 to 1500 mg) was administered every day for 2 to 3 months (Group 1), only on days 5 to 14 of the menstrual cycle for 2 to 3 months (Group 2), or used in the preovulatory phase in combination with an ovulation stimulant for 3 months (Group 3). (15) Group 1 did not show improvement in the ovulation parameters measured and side effects were observed, especially when the treatment was abruptly terminated. Of the 36 women in Group 2, 6% of women experienced normalized ovulation with resultant pregnancy, 61% demonstrated normalized ovulation without pregnancy and 33% demonstrated no effect from treatment. Parallel control studies on a comparable cohort were carried out utilizing three conventional ovulation stimulants. The best results were obtained with 62 women treated using epimestrol: 39% had normalized ovulation with pregnancy, 35% had normalized ovulation without pregnancy and 26% demonstrated no effect from treatment. No side effects were recorded for the TLSE group, compared with an incident rate of 6.5%, 10.6% and 38% in women treated with the ovulation stimulants. For the 20 women treated with TLSE and an ovulation stimulant (Group 3), the effect from their combined use was better than treatment with either single agent.
Menopause
In an open study, 98% of 50 menopausal women experienced some symptom improvement after TLSE treatment, but not after placebo. Fifty-two percent of patients were experiencing natural menopause and 48% had postoperative symptoms after removal of their ovaries. Predominant symptoms included hot flashes, sweating, insomnia and depression. The dosage prescribed varied, but generally a maintenance dose of 500 to 750 mg/day of TLSE was reached after higher initial doses. Treatment did not result in significant changes in FSH, LH, prolactin, estradiol, progesterone and testosterone, although FSH tended to be lower. (15)
Body Composition and Exercise Performance
TLSE given for 8 weeks at a daily dose of 3.21 mg/kg did not enhance body composition or exercise performance in eight resistance-trained males when coupled with a resistance-training program in a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial. The authors concede that the lack of improvement in body composition in both groups may be attributed to the fact that these subjects were already lean and may not have consumed enough protein or calories to gain lean body mass. In addition, the method chosen to assess exercise performance was not the most objective measure available. (40) The dose of TLSE used was low (240 to 260 mg/day).
Other Conditions
In an open trial of 406 patients with coronary artery disease treated with saponins isolated from Tribulus, improvement was observed for angina pectoris and for ECG readings of myocardial ischemia. The saponin fraction was said to dilate the coronary arteries and improve coronary circulation. No side effects or adverse reactions on blood, hepatic or renal functions were observed. (41)
Mechanism of Action
TLSE (750 mg/day for 5 days) increased serum FSH and estradiol compared to baseline values in human female volunteers and increased the level of LH and testosterone in male volunteers, (42) thus demonstrating increased sex hormone production in both men and women. In other words, the sexual and tonic activities of Tribulus may not result from a direct hormonal activity of the saponins or direct effects on the gonadal tissue. Instead, they could be mediated at the level of the hypothalamus or pituitary.
It has been suggested in one article that protodioscin is converted in the human body into DHEA. (43) There is no sound evidence to support such a speculation.
Quality Issues
Two studies have highlighted that most Tribulus products on the market are quite different from the Bulgarian extract (TLSE). (44,45) The first study, conducted in the US, found that the level of protodioscin varied substantially with the plant part (leaf, stem or fruit) and origin (Bulgaria, India or China) of the Tribulus. (44) Only leaf from Bulgaria was high in protodioscin. Analysis of products selected from the US market found deficiencies of protodioscin in the majority.
The second study from Australia produced similar results. (45) An Eastern European variety of Tribulus (from Slovakia) contained high levels of protodioscin in the leaf but none in the fruit. Leaf from Australia and India did not contain protodioscin.
The principle of phytoequivalence dictates that, if the benefits demonstrated in a clinical trial are claimed for a herbal product, then that product must closely match the one used in the clinical trial. The Bulgarian clinical trials which have shown that Tribulus boosts libido and fertility and alleviates menopausal symptoms, all used Tribulus leaf rich in protodioscin collected from Bulgaria. Therefore only similar products might reasonably be expected to have the same effects. If a Tribulus product is made from the root or fruit of the plant, or is sourced from anywhere else other than Eastern Europe, it will probably contain low levels of protodioscin and so will be quite different from the Bulgarian standardized extract. This is despite what might be claimed on the label for such products, because often inferior methods of analysis have been used to measure the furostanol saponins, such as gravimetric or colorimetric techniques. The quality of Tribulus products is best assessed by high performance liquid chromatography as used in the two studies cited above.
Clinical Summary
Actions
Tonic, aphrodisiac, estrogenic in females (indirectly), androgenic in males (indirectly), fertility agent.
Recommended Therapeutic Uses
** Male erectile dysfunction
** Male and female infertility
** Menopausal symptoms
** Decreased libido in men and women
** To restore or build vitality (especially during convalescence or after surgery) and to assist in responding to stress; to improve physical performance.
Dosage and Administration
The recommended adult dosage for the hormonal effects is one tablet of standardized concentrate, containing 100 mg of furostanol saponins (calculated as protodioscin), three to four times per day. Higher doses may be necessary in some cases, especially for male impotence.
Suggested Combinations
Tribulus combines well with damiana, Korean ginseng, saw palmetto or ashwaganda (Withania somnifera) in male sexual inadequacy and infertility and low libido in women; black cohosh or wild yam in menopause; and ashwaganda, Eleutherococcus or Korean ginseng for tonic use.
Adverse Reactions
As with all saponin-containing herbs, oral intake may cause esophageal reflux and irritation of the gastric mucous membranes.
Contraindications and Cautions
According to Traditional Chinese Medicine, Tribulus should be used with caution in pregnancy. (46) If Tribulus is being used to promote fertility in women, its use is best stopped after pregnancy is established. While it is unlikely that normal human doses of Tribulus leaf would cause cholestasis, this should be considered in unexplained cases of cholestasis in patients taking Tribulus. Steroidal saponin-containing herbs such as Tribulus are best kept to a minimum in patients with pre-existing cholestasis.
Male Infertility: Clinical Anecdotes
These have been provided by Dr. Therese Lovell, MD. (47)
Case 1
A 42-year-old male with very low sperm count, 38% abnormal forms and poor motility. No pregnancy with unprotected sex (same partner) for last 7 years.
Therapy: One tablet* b.i.d. Wife was pregnant before the 3 months when I planned to repeat his semen analysis.
Case 2
A 59-year-old male unable to fertilize his partner's egg outside of the IVF laboratory using ICSI (intracytoplasmic sperm injection). To date only one successful pregnancy resulted from ICSI which miscarried before/at 9 weeks.
Therapy: One tablet* b.i.d. At the 3 month review week we discovered his partner is pregnant ... with no IVF intervention! A natural cycle, spontaneous insemination had occurred.
Acknowledgments
The contribution of Michelle Morgan and Janice McMillan in the preparation of this article in gratefully acknowledged.
*This tablet contained Tribulus terrestris herb, standardized for 100 mg furostanol saponins as protodioscin.
References
1. Kapoor LD, CRC Handbook of Ayurvedic Medicinal Plants. Boca Raton: CRC Press, 1990; p 325
2. Frawley D, Lad V. The Yoga of Herbs: An Ayurvedic Guide to Herbal Medicine, 2nd Edition. Santa Fe: Lotus Press, 1988: pp 169-170
3. Thakur RS, Puri HS, Husain A. Major Medicinal Plants of India. Lucknow: Central Institute of Medicinal and Aromatic Plants, 1989: pp 506-509
4. Bensky D, Gamble A. Chinese Herbal Medicine Materia Medica. Seattle: Eastland Press, 1986: pp 607-608
5. Gjulernetowa R, Tomowa M, Simowa M et al. Pharmazie 1982; 37: 296
6. Tomova M, Gyulemetova R, Zarkova S et al. Int Conf Chem Biotechnol Biol Act Nat Prod (Proc) 1st. 1981; 3: 298
7. Yan W, Ohtani K, Kasai R et al. Phytochem 1996; 42: 1417
8. Mahato SB, Sahu NP, Ganguly AN et al. J Chem Soc Perk Trans 1981; 1: 2405
9. Bourke CA, Stevens GR, Carrigan MJ. Aust Vet J 1992; 69: 163
10. Personal communication from Dr R Lehmann, General Manager Research & Development, MediHerb Research Laboratories, September 2004.
11. Hostettmann K, Marston A, Chemistry & Pharmacology of Natural Products: Saponins. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1995.
12. Zarkova S. Rev Port Ciencias Vet 1984; 79: 117
13. Georgiev P, Dimitrov M, Vitanov S. Vet Sb 1988; 3: 20
14. Dimitrov M, Georgiev P, Vitanov S. Vet Med Nauki 1987; 24: 102
15. Zarkova S. Tribestan: Experimental and Clinical Investigations. Chemical Pharmaceutical Research Institute, Sofia, Bulgaria.
16. Gautharnan K, Adaikan PG, Prasad RN. Life Sci 2002; 71: 1385
17. Gauthaman K, Ganesan AP, Prasad RN. J Altern Complement Med 2003; 9: 257
18. Toshkov A, Dimov V, Zarkova S. MBI: Medicobiologic Information 1985; p 28
19. Taskov M. MBI: Medicobiologic Information 1988; 1: 3
20. Taskov M. MBI: Medicobiologic Information 1988; 1: 4
21. Tyutyulkova N, Taskov M, Manolova B. MBI: Medicobiologic Information 1988; 6: 27
22. Dikova N, Ognyanova V. Anniversary Scientific Session: 35 Years Chemical Pharmaceutical Research Institute, Sofia, Bulgaria, March 22-23, 1983.
23. Tanev G, Zarkova S. Toxicological studies on Tribestan, cited in Zarkova S. Tribestan: Experimental and Clinical Investigations. Chemical Pharmaceutical Research Institute, Sofia, Bulgaria.
24. Gendzhev Z. Tr Nauchnoizsled Khim Farm Inst 1985; 15: 241-250
25. Tapia MO, Giordano MA, Gueper HG. Vet Hum Toxicol 1994; 36(4): 311-313
26. Glastonbury JR, Doughty FR, Whitaker SJ et al. Aust Vet J 1984; 61(10): 314-316
27. Waller GR, Yamasaki K (eds). Saponins used in Food and Agriculture. Advances in Experimental Medicine and Biology, Volume 405. New York: Plenum Press, 1996: pp 381-382
28. Protich M, Tsvetkov D, Nalbanski B et al. Akush Ginekol 1983; 22: 326
29. Kumanov F. Bozadzhieva E, Andreeva M et al. Savr Med 1982; 4: 211
30. Viktorov IV, Kaloyanov AL, Lilov L et al. MBI: Medicobiologic Information 1982, cited in Zarkova S. Tribestan: Experimental and Clinical Investigations. Chemical Pharmaceutical Research Institute, Sofia, Bulgaria.
31. Nikolova V, Stanislavov R. Dokl Bolg Akad Nauk 2000; 53: 113
32. Stanislavov R, Nikolova V. Dokl Bolg Akad Nauk 2000; 53: 107
33. Nikolaeva LF, Dedov II, Kurbanov VA. Kardiologiia 1986; 26: 82
34. Nigam P, Mukhija RD, Gupta AK et al. Hansenol Int 1984; 9: 10
35. Sathyanathan TJ. Indian Med Gaz 1985; 119: 196
36. Sankaran JR. J Natl Integ Med Ass 1984; 26: 315
37. Misra DN, Shukla GD. Indian Med Gaz 1984; 118: 322
38. Pardanani DS, Delima RJ, Rao RV et al. Indian J Surg 1976; 38: 34
39. Dandapat MC, Mohapatro SK, Patro SK. Indian Med Gaz 1985; 119: 14
40. Antonio J, Uelmen J, Rodriguez R et al. Int J Sport Nutr Excer Metab 2000; 10: 280
41. Wang B, Ma L, Liu T. Chung His I Chieh Ho Tsa Chih 1990; 10: 85
42. Milanov S, Maleeva E, Taskov M. MBI: Medicobiologic Information 1985; 4: 27
43. Adimoelja A. Int J Androl 2000; 23 Suppl 2 82-84
44. Ganzera M, Bedir E, Khan IA. J Pharm Sci 2001; 90: 1752
45. Lehmann RP, Penman KG, Halloran KG. Revista de Fitoterapia 2002; 2(S1): 217 (Abstract B006)
46. Bensky D, Gamble A, Chinese Herbal Medicine Materia Medica. Seattle: Eastland Press, 1986.
47. Lovell T. Modern Phytotherapist 2001; 6(2): 21
by Kerry Bone, FNIMH, FNHAA
P.O. Box 713 * Warwick QLD 4370, Australia
+61 7 4661 0700 * Fax +61 7 46610788 * www.mediherb.com
FNIMH = Fellow, National Institute of Medical Herbalists (UK)
FNHAA = Fellow, National Herbalists Association of Australia
VooDooChild said:
What difference does it make if he's 160 pounds?
PLENTY!!! WHEN YOU"RE JUICING AS MUCH AS A FUCKING IFBB PRO!!!
Funny how people are so apt to knock someone down who has cred yet be willing to defend soemone else with none because they feel some sort of allegience. It's fascinating.
Anyway...
Hey, I'm no mass monster -- never was. But I made great gains both naturally and with tiny bits of gear. It would be easier for me to take massive amounts and be bigger but that's not my goal.
BUT YOU CAN"T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!!!
You can't take 2 grams a week and be "fit" and claim to be an expert. At age 41 I'd say I looked AT LEAST as good as Ulter and I have shit genetics.
And I was NATURAL.
On a cycle of 200 mgs of Deca a week and 20 mgs of Dbol a day I placed in the NPC Championships. With his non stop 2000 mg plus slin and GH cycle Ulter wouldn't be let in the building.
If you can't see the signifigance of the comparison you're hopelessly lost.
.
Nelson Montana said:
Bears repeating. Am I wrong?
.
A
Anthony Roberts
Guest
- Ross - said:
Dude...instead of making the whole thing red, can you just highlight the relevant parts (like I did with the abstract I posted).
I don't mind dialogue, but I can't read 5 pages to get to one paragraph which is relevant. I also looked at some of those references at the bottom...hardly credible citations some of them are very dodgy...one of the organizations listed as a chemical research company is owned by the original company to market Tribulus...also many of the important claims aren't actually properly cited, and others aren't cited at all. Other references don't even support the claim made which cites them...it's really...if you look up the references a lot of them don't check out, others are in Bulgarian, etc....barely any are on medline, or in legitimate peer reviewed medical journals...sketchy stuff...
Just do me a favor and highlight the specifics that you think are important.
R
Ross
Guest
Anthony Roberts said:
Anthony, everything that I highlighted in RED I considered to be of great importance. if you have a moment to browse through it all, I think you will be impressed as well.
Sorry for the extensive posts, I will try to be more CONCISE.
A
Anthony Roberts
Guest
VooDooChild said:Wow, 1 member posted bloodwork. Thats enough for me, Im sold!
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?referrerid=100848&t=527359
Refreshing, huh?
silver_shadow
New member
not trying to stir shit... but we have no way of knowing how low he'd be after 1.5 mths (a pretty good amount of time - i remember nelson or someone saying a long time ago that it takes nearly 2 mths to for levels to stabilize) without myogenx.Anthony Roberts said:
wellbilt
New member
i will give credit wheere credit is dueneedtogow2007612 said:
i ahve used unleashed and post cycle in the poast during my post cycle and thought the worked weel
i have no blood work to prove it i only know how i felt
i will be including them in my upcoming pct
and i think the prices of these products are reasonable
dont knock it untill you try it
peace
A
Anthony Roberts
Guest
silver_shadow said:
I guess that's possible. Maybe he'd recover fully on his own without myogenx, and it's possible that his libido and strength would have randomly improved within 5 days of starting my product also...
All of the results he felt may have coincidentally occured within 5 days of taking MyoGenX also. All of that is possible, but...is it probable? This guy is in his 40's and he did a full pct and had no results before he tried Myo...
V
VooDooChild
Guest
Anthony Roberts said:
Well, the results were not that amazing in my opinion. I mean where is this guy at now? Is he still using myogenx? What are his levels at now? (3-4 months later)
I havent seen any bloodwork for AIFM either, your right about that. But you have 1 person posting bloodwork. I dont think you can draw any definite conclusions with these results as of yet, dont you agree?
You said his normal hcg/clomid pct failed, well this is only 1 case that ive heard of. I mean, we dont even know this guys history of steroid use. What was he using the last 3 or 4 years? We all respond differently to each compound.
I just dont think its wise, pushing myogenx as an alternative pct. Especially with some of these harsh cycles, us members put our bodies through.. test/tren/dbol/drol, etc..
A
Anthony Roberts
Guest
VooDooChild said:
I don't push MyoGenX as an alternative PCT. I never have. I think it should be used along with PCT.
If you want to read about people's MyoGenX experiences, try Steroid.com's supplement forum. It's got plenty.
