My weak point?

[WelcomeToTheMachine]

I've been working out for about 5.5 months now, basically doing bodybuilding workouts (4 days, one body part a week). I started a westside-type routine this week, and worked up to a max single on bench yesterday. 315 went up, but 325 stalled about 4-5" off my chest, after VERY SLIGHT help, the lockout FLEW up. Basically I know my tricep strength is there, but how do I go about determining my weak point? Is it speed, chest strength, lats, shoulders? I'd like to do a competition on December 8 to set a state record in my class (350), but need to know what to work on hardest. Any suggestions? Thanks

 

[WelcomeToTheMachine]

background info

Oh yes, since I'm new I'll give some background info!

Name - Steve
Weight - 200lb
Age - 19 (Sophmore @ UCONN - computer engineering major)
Time training - Probably about 5 months
Height - 6'1"
Max Deadlift - 425
Max Squat - 405?
Max Bench - 320

I'm not that big physically, but I guess I have pretty good genetics

 

[Imnotdutch]

Re: background info

I'll take a stasb at this

Judging by your weight and height I'd say you are stalling where your shoulders are taking over. One option is to work on being explosive at the bottom of the lift so you blast straight through the sticking point. If you learn to use your lats effectively this will help alot.

The other option is to work the weak point using board presses or a power rack with the pins set at the sticking point.

I know this is a bit vague....I hope Benchmonster or someone similar will be able to give more details.

BTW nice lifts consider you've only been lifting 5.5 months.

Oh yes, since I'm new I'll give some background info!

Name - Steve
Weight - 200lb
Age - 19 (Sophmore @ UCONN - computer engineering major)
Time training - Probably about 5 months
Height - 6'1"
Max Deadlift - 425
Max Squat - 405?
Max Bench - 320

I'm not that big physically, but I guess I have pretty good genetics

 

[spatts]

Good post, imnotdutch. I'd like to add that 5 inches can be very misleading, depending on your bench stroke. If you have a wide grip, and 11 inch bench stroke, then 5-6 inches off the chest is tricep territory, IMO. The stronger and faster the tris/lats/shoulders, the better.

Also...where does the bar touch down on your torso? Chest? Sternum? Where is your grip?

 

[WelcomeToTheMachine]

My grip and stuff

Ok, thanks for the replies so far. If the bar is like this...

O||| ||||||------||||------|||||||| |||O

Where | is the grippy part, mine is about two inches out from the -------- on each side. (23" apart)

The bar touches down about 1 inch below the nipples. My theory is that since I was training for hypertrophy, my reps tended to be with heavy weight ALL THE TIME, and so obviously, low speed. I would usually do like 225 for 8, 245 for 6, 245 for 6, or something like that. I never really worked around the 185-200 range for speed. Could that be the culprit?

Thanks again,

Steve

 

[spatts]

IMHO, speed is always a factor. Can't be too fast.

LOVE the diagram...too cute. I suppose that's about a medium grip. Pinkies in the "rings" being "wide."

I think ONE of the problems could be your bench technique. It sounds like you are benching "like a bodybuilder," for lack of a better term. That's okay for a bodybuilder who isn't prone to shoulder trouble. If the goals is work the chest, then I can see a need for that form.

BUT

To bench heavy you will need to change your form. You will have greater strength potential AND less cause for injury (less shoulder rotation).

Try benching to your sternum, not your chest. Rather than your elbows going out wide to the side (to work chest) bring them in close to your body. Even for the widest allowable grip (index finger in the ring), the arms don't travel more than about 45 degrees from the body. If you put your arms next to your body, and bend them to 90 degrees, then without changing that position, swing them forward and back at the shoulder....that's the plane you should bench in. Notice the bar would hit about at the xyphoid process, and not just below your nipples.

Another key aspect is keeping the traps squeezed tightly together on the bench (decreases bench stroke and minimizes shoulder rotation). Leg drive is important too. When I get done benching, it's my left hamstring that's screaming at me.

 

[WelcomeToTheMachine]

hmm....

Well, luckily I have a bench right next to my computer, and tried this out. I brought it down lower on my chest (to sternum), and noticed how much easier it is to keep the elbows in.

What I don't understand is how to incorporate "leg drive". Is this simply pushing the legs down into the ground? Where should the legs be positioned? The only things I've ever felt after bench in other parts of my body were in the neck and lower back; never in the legs.

Also, which grip is more effective? Wide, medium, or close? I'm guessing this differs based on chest strength vs. tri strength. Thanks for the great input so far!

 

[spatts]

I'll answer these backwards. When we train, we use a variety of grips. Close, med, wide, extrawide, etc...and rotate them during work sets. When we make max effort attempts, unless it's grip specific move (like close grip 5 board) or something like that, we use the grip we can move the most weight with.

Leg drive is hard to explain, even harder to show, but once you feel it, you know it. I think of it like a crowbar, although I think that analogy only makes sense to ME. I use my legs to SMOOSH my upper back (which is pinched together tightly on the bench through the entire movement) into the bench. Then the "return force" is UP/OUT. Like with a crow bar...you push down on one end, but because of the curves and angles in the crow bar, the force goes up. One way to realize your leg drive is to do floor presses with your legs straight out in front of you. You may catch yourself wanting to use your heels, or bring your legs in to get the weight up...it's because the legs DO play a big part in the force behind a strong bench. It's a full body press.

Most of the guys I see keep there legs out and wide when benching. Getting stable footing, and driving into your upper back will help you keep your core tight, and might help alleviate some of that lower back strain you are feeling. Keeping the traps (which extend down to the middle of your back between your shoulder blades) tight will also help stabilize the head and neck.

 

[Screwball]

Even for the widest allowable grip (pinkies in the ring), the arms don't travel more than about 45 degrees from the body.

The widest allowable bench-grip is index fingers on the rings. I know that you know this, Spatts. The correction is purely for the sake of truth and knowledge.

 

[spatts]

Yeah, typo on my part. Thanks for spotting it.

 

[DOM]

Leg drive is hard to figure out... when you do figure it out, you'll figure it out on your own, and you'll know it instantly. I'll try to describe it, though, to help you out.

First, lie down on a bench, and without a bar or anything, just drive with your legs. You'll actually move your body down the bench toward your head. That is the same drive you want while benching, just without moving your body. So... it's not going to do you any good if you're sliding around the bench while you're trying to max out, so you need something to catch you, hold you in place while you're using your leg drive. To do this, pinch your shoulder blades together so your entire back is on the bench when you get under the bar. Try lying down on the bench again, this time pinching your shoulder blades together, and driving backward -- if you mess around, you should find a position where you can get your back to 'catch' or 'grip' the bench and keep you from sliding backward, although you may still slide if you use your full leg drive. Now you're on the right track. Now add a third factor to the equation. You get into that position where you have your back as a foundation, and then you unrack a maximal weight. Now your back has 300 lbs pressing it into the bench -- it's pinned down to the bench, and you've set yourself up so that your back is planted there, and it's gripping the bench. Now since your back is pinned down, you can push with full force with your legs and you won't slide an inch.

How does all this help? Imagine if you had a max bench press and you lowered it to your chest. If you could push your body away from the bar rather than pressing the bar up, it would obviously help the lift. This is the same sensation a leg drive gives. You feel not only that you're pressing the bar up, but also that you driving yourself away from the bar with your legs. Another way to describe the feeling is that since you're driving yourself backward and downward with your legs, the bar will seem to go forward and upward -- naturally the opposite of the direction you're driving your body. The bar will feel as if you're actually pressing from a decline... like you're pressing it down and away from you with better leverage.

It's very hard to describe, but if you get on your bench and feel around for it, hopefully you can identify with some of that description and figure it out yourself.

 

[spatts]

Imagine if you had a max bench press and you lowered it to your chest. If you could push your body away from the bar rather than pressing the bar up, it would obviously help the lift. This is the same sensation a leg drive gives. You feel not only that you're pressing the bar up, but also that you driving yourself away from the bar with your legs. Another way to describe the feeling is that since you're driving yourself backward and downward with your legs, the bar will seem to go forward and upward -- naturally the opposite of the direction you're driving your body. The bar will feel as if you're actually pressing from a decline... like you're pressing it down and away from you with better leverage.

AWESOME post! Never read it described better! Especially about pushing away from the bar...I've been trying to articulate that "feeling" for a while. I think I once referred to it as a reverse shrug, because it's almost as if the BAR is stationary, and you are shoving your body away from it.

DEAD ON, MAN. I will probably quote you on this from time to time, if you don't mind.

 

[DOM]

Thanks Spatts! It's definitely a difficult idea to articulate, feel free to quote it anytime.

Machine, you might benefit from reading the bench form articles over on elitefts.com if you haven't already. And if you already have... go back and read them every few months. Each time I go look at it, there's been one more thing that I can say "Oh yeah, I get that now," and implement it into my bench.

 

[natural-mike]

DOM,

To agree, I think that was an excellent description of leg drive, you painted quite a picture with that description. But a point to ponder.

The whole idea of pushing the weight away from you, wouldnt an exercise like weighted dips or even lets say a decline press become extremely applicable here?. Just from an idea standpoint. I know weighted dips can be known to cause shoulder problems, but if you angle yourself just right wouldnt it simulate the path of the bar (almost). I'm just pondering the thought, I have no evidence to back it up, I'm sure the Westsiders don't do it.

I for one, do heavy heavy weighted dips, I mean I go balls to the wall, we ALL have a pet peeve exercise which we simply excel at, for each person its different, for me, its weighted dips. I know a lot of people do not do them and advocate not doing them, yet some have called this "The Upper Body Squat" if any of you have read literature by Ken Leistner a.k,a Dr. Ken. .

Just being curious here after reading the notion of pushing the bar away from you, it almost ( key word is almost) simulates like a dip or decline press.

Any thoughts?

Naturally Weak Mike

 

[WelcomeToTheMachine]

nice!

First of all Dom, great description! I tried this out, and now understand how it'll help. Basically any EXTRA force pushing down (your legs) will help push UP more weight (just like in physics) because your body is in equilibrium and applies an equal force (weight going up). Alright I'll stop babbling.

And yes, I have read the elitefts articles, ALL OF THEM, haha. Another thing that sucks is that my gym won't allow bands and chains and boxes and shit. (I guess insurance reasons) Oh well!

As for heavy dips, I've done them, but for some reason they hurt my ELBOWS. I don't know what that's all about, but I don't like it. Hopefully with all this new advice I'll hit that 350 in two months, wish me luck!

Thanks a shyteload
Steve

 

[spatts]

Heavy dips aren't a bad move if you can handle the shoulder rotation. I, presonally, can't. We just started doing declines, and that feeling of pushing up and away toward your feet would be totally applicable. I can also see where this would assist in shirted lifting, where you need to be in a groove and practically pushing toward your feet to get the bar to go straight up.

 

[DOM]

natural-mike,

I'm no expert on the subject. But I'll tell you what I know. First off I haven't done weighted dips for years since I started out and had no idea what I was doing in the gym.. so I ca'nt really comment. As for decline, I know a lot of people don't use it because they can use more than they bench, and they don't think they're hitting a weak point. Personally I can decline about 5 lbs more than I can bench, so I continue to use them for ME days. Do they carry over well to flat bench because of the leg drive issue? Maybe. The decline will give you the same sensation as benching with a good leg drive does. Yet you have to remember that even with the sensation of pushing the bar forward on flat bench, it is still truly going straight up in a vertical line. So it helps to learn that feeling, but I'm not going on the record saying it's a great ME exercise -- that's up to every individual lifter.

 

[natural-mike]

DOM,

I agree with you. I happened to luckily get a good carryover on weighted dips, and I never go too low or risk shoulder injury, at least I hope and of course I rotate them in and out of my routine, I do not always do them.

In the end I guess there is no substitute for a motion like the motion itself. Lets face it, if you rock on the decline bench and can't back it up on flat bench then you got problems come comp time.

 

[Imnotdutch]

This thread made for some interesting reading

I think you are right in saying how difficult it can be to predict what the sticking point is. I just figured Welcometothemachine (and I thought my handle was kinda long!! ) had a similar build to me and only recently turned to powerlifting so it would be shoulders. I shoulda made that more explicit.........

Like I said........great thread.

Good post, imnotdutch. I'd like to add that 5 inches can be very misleading, depending on your bench stroke. If you have a wide grip, and 11 inch bench stroke, then 5-6 inches off the chest is tricep territory, IMO. The stronger and faster the tris/lats/shoulders, the better.

Also...where does the bar touch down on your torso? Chest? Sternum? Where is your grip?

 

[rebelflagkisser]

I have the exact same sticking point.
my power clean & row lag behind other lifts, which leads me to believe I need stronger lats, shoulders & traps: ah, the overlooked muscle group for the bench, The Traps!
speaking of traps, doesn't that dude, Glen Chabot have some ungodly monsters for traps, amazing, scary.
Ive yet to purchase bands, but plan to do so very soon, hoping these puppies are the ticket to a speedy 400 BP soon. it will however be done either raw or in a single poly shirt. although I have to admit, those armor-like double denims sure look cool-- and I may try one someday.