my 5x5 practice run, and a couple questions

[Island Son]

This is NOT a proper 5x5, I didn't do any squats. My knee's been giving some problems and my chiros forbid it until I got my flexibility and balance handled. This was my own fault, and if you want to learn from my experience without taking 4 months off and 4 months of uncomfortable squats before that...... STRETCH AFTER WORKOUTS!!! STRETCH ON YOUR DAYS OFF!!! LEARN ITB, HIP FLEXOR, HAMSTRING AND QUAD STRETCHES!!! My core strength was shit, using my erectors to lift the big weight and compensating for weak spinal muscles... ITB's were so tight they called in students to look at me and videotaped me later... probably labelled the tape "generic dumbass".

Anyway. Been stretching and the chiros say that when I can get my ass to the floor with proper form my squat weight will be much, much higher because my erectors won't be firing constantly to maintain the balancing job my core muscles should be doing. With no squat, I figured I'd take a couple months to run through this to get a feel because madcow2 keeps emphasizing "you WILL screw up something your first time through". Heh. So this was just for practice.

some history; i'm 6'2", 34, was 155lb when i left HS, roughly 164lb when I left university, was working out off and on between HS and Univ, for a few months after univ. My exgf got me back into working out about 7 years ago and i've been consistent since then. Started out at 5-6 days a week constantly, no problem with one bodypart a day, plateaued after a few years (made it up to 170lb a year later). A couple of years ago I read Poliquin's 5x5, tried to do it constantly and exclusively and kept burning out and falling behind... then i read Westside and tried to split my 5x5 that way, burned out in 4 weeks. (max lower, max upper, rest day, lighter lower body, rest, lighter upper body, rest 2 days). Kept doing that for at least a year, the most I could manage was 6 full weeks at the time before I zombied out from the exhaustion that started in week 4.
The first round of my invented program I maxed out at 3x2 reps @ 225 and 3 sets 4 reps at 315, max of 90 seconds rest. I dropped bench for awhile, switched to incline press to "strengthen the upper chest" and came back to bench a few months later, much much weaker.
For the past year i've been doing the "chest/back, legs, bi/tri, shoulders" 4-day split and not making any progress.... one week a rep more, next time 2 reps less... no weight gain or composition change.

when i read a little on madcow2's variation (the first few and last few pages) I already knew about the CNS fatigue, but I thought it was something to work through or maybe i should just flip some exercise days around to get more rest time. Overall it matched up with my experiences over the past few years.

I'm not taking any supplements (was kind of poor lately). I'll start 2 months of creatine when I start the next cycle in a few weeks. Overall I keep remembering the saying (is is BFold's?) "everything works. Nothing works for long." I'm already committed to doing this till December 31 before I pass final judgement on how it works for me. So far, I'm impressed.. keep in mind my previous unassisted best bench was 235 a few years ago.

The following log is set up as: week #, sets x reps @ weight, notes on what happened or how i felt afterwards. Bench and row always start with 10 reps on the bar to stretch.
I made some MISTAKES (of course) so do not use this as a guide, educational purposes only. I substituted SLDLs for the normal deadlift on chiro's recommendation, taking my back to parallel with a little arch.
rest in between is generally 1 minute to 90 seconds maximum unless written otherwise

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wk 1: sunday
Bench 8@95, 5@115, @125, @135, @145, @155 (felt wimpy)
Row 8@95, 5@115, 135, 155, 175 (heavy!)
crunches 4x20 30 sec rest, cardio 10 min

Wk 1: tuesday
sldl 5x5 @ 115
standing military press 5x5@80 (felt fresh so just jumped in)
pullups 5x5 bodyweight
seated calf press 8@50, 5@100, 5x5@140 (a pretty big jump from my old weight, calves started to contract)

wk 1: thursday
bench 10@95, 5x5@135
row 8@95, 5x5@135 (hard on the lower back, lack of flexibility maybe?)
skull crushers 8@30, 5x5@60
standing db curl, 2 3/4 sets of 21's at 20 lbs. (forgot how much I hate bi's. And 21's).

----
wk 2: sunday
bench 8@95, 5@125, 135, 145, 155, 165, 175, 185 (did much more than planned, but next week should be a record)
row 5@105, 125, 145, 165, 185 (trying to keep back weights same as bench)
lat raise 5x5 at 22.5 (moderate)


wk 2: Tuesday
sldl 5@85, 5x5@125 (lower back fatigued again)
mil press 8@90, 5x5@90
pullups 5x5, 5lb hanging between ankles
calves 8@50, 7x10@125 (trying for more volume, less spasm)
crunches 5x20, 30 sec rest

wk 2: friday
bench 8@95, 6@135, 5x5@165
row 8@95, 6@135, 5x5@165
skulls 8@40, 5x5@70
db curl, 2 3/4 sets of 21's at 22.5lb (i still hate 21's)

---
wk 3: sunday
bench 8@95, 5@125, 145, 165, 185, 205, 225
row 8@95, 5@125, 145, 165, 185, 205, 215 (made it but too damn heavy)
lat raise 8@15, 5x5@25

wk 3: tuesday
sldl 5@85, 5x5@145 (grinding them out)
mil press 8@50, 4x5@110, 4@110 (first miss)
pullups 5x5, 10lb hanging between ankles
calves 8@50, 7x10@125 (20 sec interval)
crunches 5x20, 30 sec rest

wk 3: friday
bench 8@95, 8@135, 5x5@195
row 8@95, 8@135, 5x5@195
skulls 8@40, 5x5@70
ez curl barbell, 3x5@80, 30 sec rest (gym closing)

------------------
wk 4
wk 4: sunday
bench 8@95, 8@135, 5@155, 175, 195, 215, 235
row 8@95, 8@135, 5@155, 175, 195, 215, 2@235 (second miss, grip failed)


wk 4: tuesday
sldl 5@85, 5x5@155 (grinding them out)
mil press 10@30, 8@80, 2x5@130, 4@130, (third miss, switched from preweighted bar to setting up my own bar on the last sets, miscalculated the weight of the bar), 5@110, 4@110
pullups 5x5@15lb hanging between ankles
calves 8@50, 75@125 (20 sec interval, as many as possible each set)


wk 4: thursday
bench 8@95, 8@155, 5x5@205
row 8@95, 8@155, 4x5@205, 3@205 (fourth miss, back and grip tired)
skulls 8@40, 5x5@70
ez curl barbell, 8@40, 5x5@70

--------------------
wk 4+1 since i'm not doing squats, i'm probably less fatigued so I'll do an extra volume week
wk 4+1: sunday
bench 8@115, 8@155, 5@175, 195, 215, 235, 4@245 (fifth miss)
row 8@115, 5@155, 175, 195, 215, 4@235 (sixth miss, grip failed)
crunch 5x30, 20 sec rest

wk 4+1: tuesday
sldl 5@85, 5x5@165 (took a little time to recover afterwards)
mil press 10@30, 8@80, 2x5@130, 4@130, (third miss, switched from preweighted bar to setting up my own bar on the last sets, miscalculated the weight of the bar), 5@110, 4@110
pullups 5x5@20lb
calves 8@50, 75@125 (20 sec interval, as many as possible each set)

wk 4+1: thursday
bench 8@115, 8@155, 5x5@205, 5x5@215
row 8@115, 8@155, 5x5@205 (grip is killing me)
tri pressdown with the rope 12@70, 12@120, 2x8@150, 7@150, 5@150
ez curl barbell 8@40, 5x5@80 (underside of forearm is aching from the grip position, switch to db's next week)

--------------------

wk 5 first deloading week
wk 5: sunday
bench 8@115, 3@155, 3@205, 225, 245
row 8@115, 5@155, 205, 225, 245 (tough today)
calves 8@50, 75@125 (20 sec interval, as many as possible each set)

wk 5: thursday
sldl 8@115, 3x3@165 (still f'ing hard)
mil press 10@40, 8@80, 3x3@130 (moderate)
pullups 3x3@20lb (way too easy. feeling wimpy)


--------------------

wk 6: sunday
bench 8@115, 3@185, 3@205, 3@225, 3@245, 3@255 (major grind)
row 8@115, 5@155, 3@205, 2@245, 1@255, (last rep was 'just to see how it felt', stay at 245 next wk)
calves 8@50, 80@125 (20 sec interval, as many as possible each set)

wk 6: wednesday
sldl 8@115, 5@145, 3x3@175 (maybe stay here next week)
mil press 8@80, 3@100, 3x3@140 (stay here next week)
pullups 5@bodyweight, 3x3@30lb (better but still doesn't feel like enough of a workout)

--------------------

wk 7: sunday
bench 8@115, 3@155, 3@175, 3@195, 3@215, 3@235, 3@255 (still a grind, but much better acceleration than last week)
row 8@115, 5@155, 3@175, 3@195, 3@215, 3@235, 3@255 (bad form on last set)
standing db curl 8@20, 3x8@30 (good form, go to 35lb next week)
skull crushers 8@30, 3x8@50
ball crunches 3x20, 20 sec rest (gym was closing)


so I've got 3 workouts left

 

[Island Son]

I've read the first 21 pages of the main thread... it's taken a long time, this ain't no C&C reading. These are some changes to make for the next cycle
- add squatting. But I may save the deadlifts for the 3rd cycle depending on how the squats feel.
- I'm going to try to increase my flexibility to be able to sldl from the floor. My ex used to do that with heavier weights, and i'll be damned if i let a girl beat me even if it was 4 years ago
- I should make bigger jumps when ramping up, I forgot that it's 3 sets to the max 1x3, 5 sets for the max 1x5. I'm probably doing too much volume too close to the max, this may be why the second phase has felt as hard as the first all the way through.
- lat raises for shoulders, just say no
- calf work will be dropped when i start squatting
- according to most posters I should leave more time between sets, maybe 5 minutes instead of 1 minute to 90 seconds.
- going to buy straps for the second cycle and learn how to use them


a few questions for madcow2, blut wump et al
- when doing the warmup pyramid, do you go strictly linearly (20%, 40%, 60%, 80%, target) or break it out a bit (20%, 30%, 50%, 70%, target)?
- the warmup sets, am i doing too much volume? should I just do doubles or triples till I hit the working sets?
- for the 'wednesday" workout, sometimes i see pullups (lats only), sometimes it's referred to as chins(bis get worked), which one should it be, palms facing out or in?
- the pullups, 3x3, that's it? 9 reps? really? total? I've been trying hit 25, 30 reps at bodyweight for YEARS so 9 seems too easy and too short, should I just add more weight?
- cardio.. i know it causes fatigue, and you've recommended swimming & walking instead of going crazy with it for hours. How about short spells, like 10-15 minutes on elliptical a couple times a week after the workout? In the past, when I stopped it entirely my ability to grind out reps went way down on other programs.

thanks in advance guys, your experience is appreciated

 

[Guinness5.0]

Just my thoughts:

-Rest interval isn't an exact acience: don't be lazy but don't sacrifice weight for the sake of keeping a torrid pace going. Also, go by feel, not %. As it relates to ramping, I often only did triples/doubles on the way to my record sets just so I'd have more in the tank for the one the "mattered". BTW my rest intervals got progressively longer as the cycle progressed.

- the 1x3/1x5 scheme is a tool for volume/workload regulation. If you can handle more volume than most, it's OK to have your ramping weights pretty high (one way to adjust the 5x5 if you have significantly improved your capacity is to simply run all 5x5/3x3 in place of the 1x5/1x3.

-Pullup q: yes, just add weight to stay in the desired rep range. Pullups are a compound movement just like the other exercises used in the program. Whether you choose palms in or out, stick with that version throughout that cycle.

-IMHO hiit would be a good cardio option. I have NO first-hand experience with how it would effect recovery, but like you siad if you don't go nuts you should be fine

 

[blut wump]

I personally wouldn't count a set as low as 20% as a working set. How you ramp that pyramid is one of the personal variables that you can play with. There's no advice anyone can give you on that at your stage. It's down to you individually and often how you're feeling on a particular day. Those percentages are also another factor that you can work to increase as you run the program again.

A bit of cardio is a good thing, especially when it makes you feel good and you know it works for you.

 

[TheOak84]

i think u should squat, try using a wide powerlifting stance, using more hams and glutes, they are bigger more powerful muscles anyway. you wont feel it in ur knees at all.

 

[Jim Ouini]

Another suggestion, in his book Ripptoe recommends sumo deads as a way to work around a knee injury until you can squat.

 

[Island Son]

i'll go more by feel for the last 3 workouts, i was trying not to cool down too much because I thought it increased chance of injury. besides I get antsy at 2 minutes. pullups, i can add another 10lb tomorrow then but i'll do a warmup triple first.
i'll practice squats with a wider leg stance, means the hip flexors need some more loosening
thanks bros, sorry for the extra-long post