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MS, Wilson6, WarLobo: thoughts on possible supps to combat fluid retention ...

THeMaCHinE

New member
I'm looking at coumarin and/or hydroxyethylrutosides to combat bloat; the thought is that they would be taken on a daily basis.

Coumarin interferes with vitamin K absorption and has some anti-coagulant properties, but it seems extra K supplementation at a separate time might offset this effect.

Hydroxyethylrutosides look pretty good on paper, but I'm having a heck of a time finding a place to buy them, considering buying rutin or even buckwheat, but don't know if once you take a step back from the HERs, if there are other flavonoids with intrinsic activity to watch for in large doses...

Also looking somewhat at a mixture of disomin and hesperidin, but not quite as interesting in terms of combatting fluid retention as the two above-named compounds.

Any of you have practical experience or thougths on these compounds?
 
Ok, I'm none of the listed people, but I'm curious. Has she exhasuted the herbal route? Like dandelion, etc? Increased her water intake?

I hold tons of water all the time, and as a lifter, I don't mind that so much, but I have noticed that when I take my minerals regularly it's not as bad.

Back to the gurus...
 
I've recently jumped on the dandelion root bandwagon and so far so good. Only thing is...it keeps me running back and forth to the ladies room! I guess that means it's working!
 
I have never used any of those.

It is enough for most women to try
1) increasing potassium and fluid intake,
2) stuff like dandelion root works well for me too,
3) ALA, or
4) reduce her carbohydrate intake which has a similar effect to ALA

Combining all of the above is guaranteed to work in most cases. Not too mention all of the above are probably good for her general health too, unlike most pharmaceutical drugs!
 
I find that something as simple as water intake can deal with the issue of water rentention. Especially with me.

I have yet to try dandelion or anytype of herbal remedies. I'm no guru, either; just thought I'd throw in my one cent, yen, dinar, peso, whatever.
 
Dandelion Root
Vitamic C at 3-5 grams per day
Caffeine
Drink lots of water
potassium sup
 
Yes, there is bc involved here.

I should have been more specific. Coumarin, hydroxyethylrutosides, diosmin and hesperidin are all flavonoids -- they are natural supplements, not pharmecuticals (actually, hydroxyethylrutosides are a derivative of rutin, which is a derivative of buckwheat, so it's not exactly natural, but it is considered an herbal supp, much like ala).

I already harvest dandelion leaves (add the leaves right to your green leaf salad!) (it's the leaves that potentiate the water retention, they are high in potassium; the root structure is used more for constipation), however, dandelion is thought to be far less effective than the above-mentioned compounds. Hence, my interest.


Some info that got me interested:

Edema:
Several double-blind trials2 3 4 5 have found that 400 mg per day of coumarin, a flavonoid found in a variety of herbs, can improve many types of edema, including lymphedema after surgery. However, a large double-blind trial detected no benefit using 200 mg coumarin twice daily for six months in women who had arm edema after mastectomy (surgical breast removal).6 (Coumarin should not be confused with the anticlotting drug Coumadin®.)

A group of semi-synthetic flavonoids, known as hydroxyethylrutosides, are also beneficial for some types of edema.7 One double-blind trial found that 2 grams per day of hydroxyethylrutosides reduced ankle and foot edema in people with venous disorders after four weeks.8 Another double-blind trial found that 3 grams per day of hydroxyethylrutosides significantly reduced lymphedema of the arm or leg and lessened the associated uncomfortable symptoms.9

A combination of the flavonoids diosmin (900 mg per day) and hesperidin (100 mg per day) has been investigated for the treatment of a variety of venous circulation disorders.10 However, in a double-blind trial, this combination was not effective for lymphedema caused by breast cancer treatments.11


Some info on other herbals:
Herbs that stimulate the kidneys were traditionally used to reduce edema. Herbal diuretics do not work the same way that drugs do, thus it is unclear whether such herbs would be effective for this purpose. Goldenrod (Solidago cnadensis) is considered one of the strongest herbal diuretics.15 Animal studies show, at very high amounts (2 grams per 2.2 pounds of body weight), that dandelion leaves possess diuretic effects that may be comparable to the prescription diuretic furosemide (Lasix®).16 Human clinical trials have not been completed to confirm these results. Corn silk (Zea mays) has also long been used as a diuretic, though a human study did not find that it increased urine output.17 Thus, diuretic herbs are not yet well supported for use in reducing edema.


2. Becker HM, Niedermaier G, Orend KH. Benzopyrone in the therapy of postreconstructive edema. A clinical double-blind study. Fortschr Med 1985;103:593–6 [in German].
3. Casley-Smith JR, Morgan RG, Piller NB. Treatment of lymphedema of the arms and legs with 5,6-benzo- [a]-pyrone. N Engl J Med 1993;329:1158–63.
4. Chang TS, Gan JL, Fu KD, Huang WY. The use of 5,6 benzo-[alpha]-pyrone (coumarin) and heating by microwaves in the treatment of chronic lymphedema of the legs. Lymphology 1996;29:106–11.
5. Casley-Smith JR, Wang CT, Casley-Smith JR, Zi-hai C. Treatment of filarial lymphoedema and elephantiasis with 5,6-benzo-alpha-pyrone (coumarin). BMJ 1993;307:1037–41.
6. Loprinzi CL, Kugler JW, Sloan JA, et al. Lack of effect of coumarin in women with lymphedema after treatment for breast cancer. N Engl J Med 1999;340:346–50.
7. Wadworth AN, Faulds D. Hydroxyethylrutosides. A review of its pharmacology, and therapeutic efficacy in venous insufficiency and related disorders. Drugs 1992;44:1013–32 [review].
8. Renton S, Leon M, Belcaro G, Nicolaides AN. The effect of hydroxyethylrutosides on capillary filtration in moderate venous hypertension: a double blind study. Int Angiol 1994;13:259–62.
9. Piller NB, Morgan RG, Casley-Smith JR. A double-blind cross over trial of o-beta-hydroxyethyl-rutosides (benzopyrones) in the treatment of lymphoedema of the arms and legs. Br J Plast Surg 1988;41:20–7.
10. Struckmann JR. Clinical efficacy of micronized purified flavonoid fraction: an overview. J Vasc Res 1999;36 Suppl 1:37–41 [review].
11. Pecking AP, Fevrier B, Wargon C, Pillion G. Efficacy of Daflon 500 mg in the treatment of lymphedema (secondary to conventional therapy of breast cancer). Angiology 1997;48:93–8.
15. Tyler V. Herbs of Choice: The Therapeutic Use of Phytomedicinals. New York: Pharmaceutical Products Press, 1994, 74 [review].
16. Racz-Kotilla E, Racz G, Solomon A. The action of Taraxacum officinale extracts on the body weight and diuresis of laboratory animals. Planta Med 1974;26:212–7.
17. Doan DD, Nguyen NH, Doan HK, et al. Studies on the individual and combined diuretic effects of four Vietnamese traditional herbal remedies (Zea mays, Imperata cylindrica, Plantago major and Orthosiphon stamineus). J Ethnopharmacol 1994;36:225–31.
 
Water intake is good; she has tried racemic ALA, but perhaps R-ALA is worth a go; she is fairly low carb at the moment, but that could probably be improved over the long haul. I think the bc plays a fairly large part. I'm going to check into the bc the MS was talking about on another thread.
 
Is one kind of potassium better than another for fluid retention? Citrate, gluconate, does it matter? And what quantities are effective?

Thanks
 
spatts said:
Is one kind of potassium better than another for fluid retention? Citrate, gluconate, does it matter? And what quantities are effective?

Thanks

*snip*

How much is usually taken?
The best way to obtain extra potassium is to eat several pieces of fruit per day, as well as liberal amounts of vegetables. The amount of potassium found in the diet ranges from about 2.5 grams to about 5.8 grams per day. The amount allowed in supplements—99 mg per tablet or capsule—is very low, considering that one banana can contain 500 mg. One should not attempt to achieve higher potassium levels by taking large numbers of potassium pills. This concentrated form of potassium can irritate the stomach—a problem not encountered with the potassium in food.

Are there any side effects or interactions?
High potassium intake (several hundred milligrams at one time in tablet form) can produce stomach irritation. People using potassium-sparing drugs should avoid using potassium chloride-containing products, such as Morton Salt Substitute®, No Salt®, Lite Salt®, and others and should not take potassium supplements, except under the supervision of a doctor. Even eating several pieces of fruit each day can sometimes cause problems for people taking potassium-sparing drugs, due to the high potassium content of fruit.

Potassium and sodium work together in the body to maintain muscle tone, blood pressure, water balance, and other functions. Many researchers believe that part of the blood pressure problem caused by too much salt (which contains sodium) is made worse by too little dietary potassium.

People with kidney failure should not take potassium supplements, except under careful medical supervision.

http://www.gnc.com/health_notes/
 
Well, then I already get a ton of potassium, so that must not be my problem.

That could be a problem for someone low carbing (no fruit) too.
 
Those flavinoids are all basically anticoagulants, which may help reduce edema in folks with poor circulation. This is not the same kind of edema that you get with hormonal/mineral imbalances, so I doubt they would do anything other than increase a woman's risk of bleeding.

"dandelion leaves possess diuretic effects that may be comparable to the prescription
diuretic furosemide (Lasix®)."....................nuff said, although that research wasn't don in humans, the experience of the female board members here is that dandelion leaves work pretty well.

Maybe time to change birth control methods??? Has she had a medical checkup recently?
 
Another herbal remedy is Uva Ursi. I have a product from Planetary Formulas called Uva Ursi Diurite that contains Cleavers leaf, dandelion root, ginger root, marshmallow root, parsley root, and uva ursi leaf extract. It works fairly well, although I try to use it as a last resort.

Another product I found from Planetary Formulas is a digestive aid called Digestive Comfort - it's a chinese blend of herbs also known as Kan Ning Wan (healthy peaceful pills). I've found this helps with bloating/upset digestion when I'm PMS'ing.

I get both of these from iherb.com, BTW, in case you want to read more about them.
 
MS said:

Maybe time to change birth control methods??? Has she had a medical checkup recently?

She's really only open to oral b/c methods at this point; we have discussed vasectomy on my end, so that may be a possibility. It is my understanding that a male b/c pill will be coming to market in about a year, so that may be a possibility too.

Yes, she's regular with her checkups ... Is there anything specifically she should ask?
 
MS said:
Those flavinoids are all basically anticoagulants, which may help reduce edema in folks with poor circulation.

Don't a lot of women have problems with circulation in the lower body? Or is this still a mismatch?

What are the ladies here finding as an effective dose for dandelion?
 
JJFigure said:
Another herbal remedy is Uva Ursi. I have a product from Planetary Formulas called Uva Ursi Diurite that contains Cleavers leaf, dandelion root, ginger root, marshmallow root, parsley root, and uva ursi leaf extract. It works fairly well, although I try to use it as a last resort.

Another product I found from Planetary Formulas is a digestive aid called Digestive Comfort - it's a chinese blend of herbs also known as Kan Ning Wan (healthy peaceful pills). I've found this helps with bloating/upset digestion when I'm PMS'ing.

I get both of these from iherb.com, BTW, in case you want to read more about them.

Thanks for the information :) I frequent iherb, so I will read about them. Are you using the Uva Ursi Diurite mostly as a pre-competition agent or on a daily basis (as needed)?
 
Uva Ursi Diurite

Uva Ursi Diurite unites some of the most specific Western and Chinese botanicals for supporting the body's normal elimination of fluid. This complex was carefully formulated to include herbs that are rich in important trace minerals.

For Uva Ursi Diurite Products :
Uva Ursi Diurite

For More Information Nutrovita
 
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