Misconceptions and Errors in Thought On Nolvadex (Tamoxifen)

[dylangemelli]

I just want to start off by saying that I, like every other human, am not perfect... One of the things that has set me apart in my life and allowed me to become what I am now is my willingness to learn, listen and admit when I am wrong... This board turned into an anti Nolva board for many reasons that I will abstain from getting into... I fell into this trap as well, admittedly, after only trying it once and not doing enough of my own research into it... I still am under the firm belief that nolva alone is not enough for pct but there are FAR MORE instances and indications that it has MULTIPLE benefits that not... A lot of the problem is that either people abuse the dosage or do not understand how to utilize it properly... It should not be depended upon as a main source of a pct but it does have its place... It just needs to be ran along with other products to make a through and complete recovery... Nolva also has a very strong place when it comes to treating and preventing gyno... Running it in conjunction with letro is a very strong combination and there are far more that can vouch for this...

Nolvadex actually has quite a few applications for the steroid using athlete. First and foremost, its most common use is for the prevention of gynocomastia. Nolvadex does this by actually competing for the receptor site in breast tissue, and binding to it. Thus, we can safely say that the effect of tamoxifen is through estrogen receptor blockade of breast tissue, especially since total body estradiol increases with use of tamoxifen. Clearly, if you are on a cycle which includes steroids which convert to estrogen, you may want to consider nolvadex as a good choice to run along side them.

Nolvadex, increases in the serum levels of LH, FSH, and most importantly, testosterone were all observed. If you take Nolvadex after a cycle, when you are trying to raise your levels of testosterone, LH, and FSH back to normal, it will greatly aid recovery. If you want a comparison, it would require 150mgs of clomid to accomplish that type of elevation in testosterone, but nolvadex also significantly increased the LH response to LHRL after 6 weeks.

There are possible side effects with nolva. The main problem is that it can be linked to reduced gains because it is possible that it could reduce IGF levels. This is why it should not be fully depended upon for a complete pct and should be ran at the proper dosage. Generally I would recommend 40/20/20/20 and running it in conjunction with clomid at 50/50/25/25. Then you throw in the excellent products like unleashed/post cycle or hcgenerate and phytoserms and you are on a serious recovery and keeping gains in pct.

For more in depth information, please go to Nolvadex (Tamoxifen Citrate) use with Anabolic Steroids and read the excellent writeup by my boy WolfPackAlpha...


I want to apologize for being wrong in the past but I feel like I should admit my mistakes and educate everyone on proper usage... Noone is always 100% right (even though at times we like to think that) but learning is an everyday process... I hope that I have helped you in some way with this information... You know I am always here for all of you, whenever you need anything! I have always given you guys my best knowledge and feel like I always owe you my very best... I have devoted as much time as I can to help each and every one of you and that is why I am bringing new and updated facts for all of you... Keep working hard and pm me with any questions that you may have...

 

[bonacris]

You dont owe anyone an apology. I still believe that the OTC products help me recover better than clomid nolva. I would still stand by that advice. Nolva has Its place to get rid of gyno

Sent from my GT-N7100 using EliteFitness

 

[Jbranken]

You dont owe anyone an apology. I still believe that the OTC products help me recover better than clomid nolva. I would still stand by that advice. Nolva has Its place to get rid of gyno

Sent from my GT-N7100 using EliteFitness

Agreed, and great post dylan. I've always said that serms do have a specific purpose in pct, but its gambling with your recovery when solely relying on them. There is much more to pct than just serms

 

[dylangemelli]

thanks guys... absolutely... they ALL have their place in pct... its when just one thing is solely relied upon, there is where the problem occurs, but when utilized in conjunction, there is a very strong recovery...

 

[Mr.GoodNice]

I applaud that somebody with your knowledge and experience is still open minded and not absorbed by their own ego. Respect.

 

[dylangemelli]

I applaud that somebody with your knowledge and experience is still open minded and not absorbed by their own ego. Respect.

thank you bro, i truly appreciate that...

 

[stevesmi]

the whole 19nor mixing with nolva does have merit. i know a guy just recently who used nolva in pct after a 19nor run and he got gyno while on the nolva during pct. but since this doesn't occur with everyone (some guys can do everything wrong and never ever get gyno no matter what) and there aren't 'studies' a lot of people believe this to be a myth. but it does happen to guys and has happened to plenty of guys on here

the problem is like you said Dylan everyone is different. for me nolva did not recover me and made me feel shitty on pct. so i won't recommend it over other pct's. but that is just me. someone else can do nolva and love it, hey if it works and you believe it works, then go for it.

i know hcg will raise total T and smash LH. but it is temporary. does the nolva raise LH permanently or do you crash right after stopping it? if so then it should be used as a stop gap during pct to artificially raise LH, but i wouldn't depend on it to recover at all like you said

 

[dylangemelli]

the whole 19nor mixing with nolva does have merit. i know a guy just recently who used nolva in pct after a 19nor run and he got gyno while on the nolva during pct. but since this doesn't occur with everyone (some guys can do everything wrong and never ever get gyno no matter what) and there aren't 'studies' a lot of people believe this to be a myth. but it does happen to guys and has happened to plenty of guys on here

the problem is like you said Dylan everyone is different. for me nolva did not recover me and made me feel shitty on pct. so i won't recommend it over other pct's. but that is just me. someone else can do nolva and love it, hey if it works and you believe it works, then go for it.

I absolutely agree... I would not run it with any 19-nors and would not solely depend upon it for pct... It does have a lot of benefit that is being overlooked but definitely, different people respond to different things

 

[WolfpackAlpha]

IMO, there is a lot of misconceptions about the use of Tamoxifen, and a lot of "broscience" parroted on the forums with negativity about it's use. We tend to forget that this is a steroid forum, people use anabolic steroids here not whey protein and granola bars - guys are talking about trenbolone + anadrol cycles (Anadrol is linked to cancer!). At the same time, the same 'good' bros are saying tamoxifen is "dangerous", how's that possible? Let's face it, everything we do comes with a level of risk, we have to face that fact.

Furthermore, I've taken 100s of clients through Nolvadex+Aromasin PCT runs with amazing results (+/- HCG/IGF-1 depends on the person).

 

[El Hefe]

It's nice to see this board warm up a little to Nolva.

I personally believe a large part of the negativity surrounding Clomid and Nolva comes from the difficult period in which they're used - PCT.

Even with a good, dynamic PCT, most feel like sh1t compared to the peak of their cycle. I think this skews their judgement towards Nolva and Clomid. Of course there are some who are very sensitive to Serms (and may feel poorly even on a low dose). But I think a lot of those cases are due to higher doses.

Placebo also plays a role in PCT. if your using 10 different things, some guys will be so stoked that they have all bases covered. If your not in the right mind set, you'll lose.

I always keep Nolva on hand, but don't always use it. For me, Nolva works GREAT at stopping gyno or pre-gyno symptoms. I went over 10 years and never experienced a single gyno symptom. Now, I experience pre-gyno symptoms with almost every cycle.

I use an AI to control estrogen, but I usually start low and adjust the dose as I go so that I don't crash. Well, sometimes during the cycle or into PCT, gyno symptoms begin. I'll take 20 mg of Nolva and by the 2nd day, everything's good. Im always impressed at how well and fast it works. At this time, I'm also increasing my AI dose (because Nolva doesn't reduce estrogen) and slowly tapering (2 weeks) off the Nolva so there is no rebound. The Nolva is so fast and effective in this situation that I see not reason for any other protocol.

I used to use Nolva in PCT and somewhere along the line I stopped and only used Clomid (along with other stuff). At the time it seemed like Clomid was a superior serm and I didn't see the need for both.

Well, in a recent PCT I tried using both Nolva and Clomid like in the old days. It wasn't my original intention. I usually run a 4 week PCT with maybe a slow 2 week tapering down of the serm(s). I feel this greatly reduces the crash and eases me off with high test levels.

My intent was to use Clomid only (with a bunch if other crap). But 2 weeks into PCT, I started experiencing gyno symptoms. So, as mentioned above, I immediately took 20 mg of Nolva and upped the AI. Of course, within 2 days, I felt great.

At this point, I decided to change the PCT a little towards the old school method. Ultimately I ran Clomid for 4 weeks and Nolva for 4 weeks with 2 weeks overlapping of the 2 serms.

As usual, I felt good on low dose Clomid (I usually run 50/25/25/12/12), nuts were full and functioning, etc. but the noteworthy part is that when I started the Nolva, there was an additional boost. Yes, I actually felt better than when I ran the Comid alone. Part of this is due to the fact that Clomid and Nolva act on different receptors and effect the feedback loop differently.

Nolva, maybe it's worth a second look.

 

[dylangemelli]

It's nice to see this board warm up a little to Nolva.

I personally believe a large part of the negativity surrounding Clomid and Nolva comes from the difficult period in which they're used - PCT.

Even with a good, dynamic PCT, most feel like sh1t compared to the peak of their cycle. I think this skews their judgement towards Nolva and Clomid. Of course there are some who are very sensitive to Serms (and may feel poorly even on a low dose). But I think a lot of those cases are due to higher doses.

Placebo also plays a role in PCT. if your using 10 different things, some guys will be so stoked that they have all bases covered. If your not in the right mind set, you'll lose.

I always keep Nolva on hand, but don't always use it. For me, Nolva works GREAT at stopping gyno or pre-gyno symptoms. I went over 10 years and never experienced a single gyno symptom. Now, I experience pre-gyno symptoms with almost every cycle.

I use an AI to control estrogen, but I usually start low and adjust the dose as I go so that I don't crash. Well, sometimes during the cycle or into PCT, gyno symptoms begin. I'll take 20 mg of Nolva and by the 2nd day, everything's good. Im always impressed at how well and fast it works. At this time, I'm also increasing my AI dose (because Nolva doesn't reduce estrogen) and slowly tapering (2 weeks) off the Nolva so there is no rebound. The Nolva is so fast and effective in this situation that I see not reason for any other protocol.

I used to use Nolva in PCT and somewhere along the line I stopped and only used Clomid (along with other stuff). At the time it seemed like Clomid was a superior serm and I didn't see the need for both.

Well, in a recent PCT I tried using both Nolva and Clomid like in the old days. It wasn't my original intention. I usually run a 4 week PCT with maybe a slow 2 week tapering down of the serm(s). I feel this greatly reduces the crash and eases me off with high test levels.

My intent was to use Clomid only (with a bunch if other crap). But 2 weeks into PCT, I started experiencing gyno symptoms. So, as mentioned above, I immediately took 20 mg of Nolva and upped the AI. Of course, within 2 days, I felt great.

At this point, I decided to change the PCT a little towards the old school method. Ultimately I ran Clomid for 4 weeks and Nolva for 4 weeks with 2 weeks overlapping of the 2 serms.

As usual, I felt good on low dose Clomid (I usually run 50/25/25/12/12), nuts were full and functioning, etc. but the noteworthy part is that when I started the Nolva, there was an additional boost. Yes, I actually felt better than when I ran the Comid alone. Part of this is due to the fact that Clomid and Nolva act on different receptors and effect the feedback loop differently.

Nolva, maybe it's worth a second look.

Nice post bro... I like how you did a trial and error and found what worked for you... I feel that it needs to be ran in conjunction with clomid and ran properly with others to really shine and work as it is supposed to... Thank you for the info on your experience...

 

[tha_Waco_kid]

I just want to start off by saying that I, like every other human, am not perfect... One of the things that has set me apart in my life and allowed me to become what I am now is my willingness to learn, listen and admit when I am wrong... This board turned into an anti Nolva board for many reasons that I will abstain from getting into... I fell into this trap as well, admittedly, after only trying it once and not doing enough of my own research into it... I still am under the firm belief that nolva alone is not enough for pct but there are FAR MORE instances and indications that it has MULTIPLE benefits that not... A lot of the problem is that either people abuse the dosage or do not understand how to utilize it properly... It should not be depended upon as a main source of a pct but it does have its place... It just needs to be ran along with other products to make a through and complete recovery... Nolva also has a very strong place when it comes to treating and preventing gyno... Running it in conjunction with letro is a very strong combination and there are far more that can vouch for this...


I want to apologize for being wrong in the past but I feel like I should admit my mistakes and educate everyone on proper usage... Noone is always 100% right (even though at times we like to think that) but learning is an everyday process... I hope that I have helped you in some way with this information... You know I am always here for all of you, whenever you need anything! I have always given you guys my best knowledge and feel like I always owe you my very best... I have devoted as much time as I can to help each and every one of you and that is why I am bringing new and updated facts for all of you... Keep working hard and pm me with any questions that you may have...

^^^^much respect bro

 

[Oatmeal12]

Thanks for clearing this up dylangemelli! No need for apologies, We are all here to learn.

 

[WolfpackAlpha]

Thanks for clearing this up dylangemelli! No need for apologies, We are all here to learn.

Dylan really went outside the box with this thread, he's a real stand up bro. True asset to the community.

 

[phil34]

Dylan really went outside the box with this thread, he's a real stand up bro. True asset to the community.

Well said wolfpack.

 

[dylangemelli]

thank you guys, i truly appreciate it...

 

[superturkey]

Wow what a turnaround for Nolva!

I have a question regarding the following:

1) Taking Nolva during cycle will not lower estrogen, but will keep estrogen from binding to receptors allowing one to run it in conjunction with multiple aromatising compounds without any issue. Since estrogen is necessary to build muscle, Nolvadex can be used on cycle to maximize gains without lowering estrogen and hindering muscle gain.

That being said, could one allow a moderate level of aromatase so estrogen is still produced to help build mass. While the nolva is blocking any gyno related side affcts.

In other words could you lower your AI dose to allow for some E and be safe from gyno using nolva?

Iv'e always wondered if i'm hindering my gains running 12.5 mg Aromasin EOD from day 1

 

[Lou Super Man 123]

could you lower your AI dose to allow for some E and be safe from gyno using nolva?

Iv'e always wondered if i'm hindering my gains running 12.5 mg Aromasin EOD from day 1

Any AI hinder gains, they also increase the risk of cardiovascular damage.

Each cycle has its history but AI's are definitely something to avoid, I would name them as "A call of emergency", I don't like how people is taking AI's as a must, that's just not correct.

People always take visible sides as important, testicles shrinkage, hair lose, gyno but what about invisible sides? what about clogged arteries for instance?

I will risk to sound heretic but I'm gonna take this board as a sample and say that most folks out there don't understand AI's, they are satisfied with the phrase "AI's lower estrogen by inhibiting the aromatase enzyme", I'm scared on how less of 1% of the guys running cycles or wanting to, have no idea what the sides of AI's are.

As for your first question, I would say that if you are taking an AI just because you wanted to, Nolva or no Nolva, you should take a very low dose, about 1/8 of mg.

The other day I saw a newbie here recommending to take up and more of 1 mg of Arimidex a day, I wanted to open my window and throw me down.

If anyone is thinking of asking me for a source: I'm short of time so I would recommend you to download an EAA's book (A respectable one) and read it.

Please don't ban me for promoting piracy LOL

 

[superturkey]

Any AI hinder gains, they also increase the risk of cardiovascular damage.

Each cycle has its history but AI's are definitely something to avoid, I would name them as "A call of emergency", I don't like how people is taking AI's as a must, that's just not correct.

People always take visible sides as important, testicles shrinkage, hair lose, gyno but what about invisible sides? what about clogged arteries for instance?

I will risk to sound heretic but I'm gonna take this board as a sample and say that most folks out there don't understand AI's, they are satisfied with the phrase "AI's lower estrogen by inhibiting the aromatase enzyme", I'm scared on how less of 1% of the guys running cycles or wanting to, have no idea what the sides of AI's are.

As for your first question, I would say that if you are taking an AI just because you wanted to, Nolva or no Nolva, you should take a very low dose, about 1/8 of mg.

The other day I saw a newbie here recommending to take up and more of 1 mg of Arimidex a day, I wanted to open my window and throw me down.

If anyone is thinking of asking me for a source: I'm short of time so I would recommend you to download an EAA's book (A respectable one) and read it.

Please don't ban me for promoting piracy LOL

Interesting, your correct I've never bothered to look into the negative sides of AI's.
Because the sides of high estrogen seem a lot worse than running no AI.

1/8 mg Aromasin EOD? This is the first I have heard of such a small dose.

But I am interested in knowing how to keep estrogen at a good level for growth, but low enough to keep bloat and gyno away.

Is low dosing an effective way of doing this?

 

[Lou Super Man 123]

1/8 mg Aromasin EOD?

Hey man, how you doing?
I don't know Aromasin, I was saying 1/8 mg of Arimidex EOD but for those using it from day 1 (1/4 mg tops), for treating gyno is another dose.

But I am interested in knowing how to keep estrogen at a good level for growth, but low enough to keep bloat and gyno away.
Is low dosing an effective way of doing this?

It all depends on how your body reacts, I would say that you need to know how your body reacts and that means not using AI's or SERMS during your cycle, there is no need to take drugs when you don't need it, the less drugs the better but if you really don't want to do that and you just want to sleep in peace while doing your cycle then yeah, a low dosed AI with or without Tamoxifen is a very nice idea.

For me, I would use Tamoxifen without an AI and I would have a blood work in between the cycle to check everything including estrogen levels, then I will know if adding an AI is a must or not.

You see, getting bloated, fat and big boobed is not funny but getting high LDL/low HDL is not fun either.

Blood works are your best friends

 

[ceo]

I been tellin ya...

 

[superturkey]

Hey man, how you doing?
I don't know Aromasin, I was saying 1/8 mg of Arimidex EOD but for those using it from day 1 (1/4 mg tops), for treating gyno is another dose.




It all depends on how your body reacts, I would say that you need to know how your body reacts and that means not using AI's or SERMS during your cycle, there is no need to take drugs when you don't need it, the less drugs the better but if you really don't want to do that and you just want to sleep in peace while doing your cycle then yeah, a low dosed AI with or without Tamoxifen is a very nice idea.

For me, I would use Tamoxifen without an AI and I would have a blood work in between the cycle to check everything including estrogen levels, then I will know if adding an AI is a must or not.

You see, getting bloated, fat and big boobed is not funny but getting high LDL/low HDL is not fun either.

Blood works are your best friends

Hey, Im doin great. Yourself?

I understand your logic here, which I am willing to play with low or no AI at the start of my cycle.
Nolva would be a good idea if I wasnt running tren. I dont feel like playing that hand.

Soooo without the use of nolva during cycle there is no way to immediatly stop/reduce gyno symptoms. The only thing you can do is reduce any further production of estro through an AI.

So with this logic it would be a safe bet running some sort of AI to prevent estro getting too high in the first place.

 

[dylangemelli]

I been tellin ya...

you absolutely have and i owe you an apology bro... forgive me?? =)

 

[ceo]

you absolutely have and i owe you an apology bro... forgive me?? =)

man that ain't necessary. No need to ask for forgiveness from me bro.

 

[dylangemelli]

man that ain't necessary. No need to ask for forgiveness from me bro.

your the man bro! Just a misjudgment too many made but that has been fixed and the effort to make it right through proper information and guidance is being made... =)

 

[infraredline]

While I may be putting myself at risk for some serious flaming I am still extremely against the use of nolvadex. Based on the research I've done I find it still is an outdated drug less superior then clomid or torem. I also feel formestane and aromasin do a better job at preventing gyno formation then nolvadex.

I am much more in favor of using more of an OTC pct consisting of products like unleashed, post cycle, d-aspartic acid, formastanzol, bridge ect. and only using 1 serm in pct, that being clomid or torem.

I respect your opinion and I appreciate that you are constantly trying to bring what you feel is the best information to the forum, so I hope you will show the same respect to my opinion.

 

[dylangemelli]

U

While I may be putting myself at risk for some serious flaming I am still extremely against the use of nolvadex. Based on the research I've done I find it still is an outdated drug less superior then clomid or torem. I also feel formestane and aromasin do a better job at preventing gyno formation then nolvadex.

I am much more in favor of using more of an OTC pct consisting of products like unleashed, post cycle, d-aspartic acid, formastanzol, bridge ect. and only using 1 serm in pct, that being clomid or torem.

I respect your opinion and I appreciate that you are constantly trying to bring what you feel is the best information to the forum, so I hope you will show the same respect to my opinion.

everyone is entitled to their own opinion but part of the problem is basing something on research, where there is contradicting research pointing in several areas and actually using the product, which you haven't yet... once you try it, and then you find it not for you, then that's one thing, but basing it on research alone without actual use, ESPECIALLY when there's contradictory research, FOR AND AGAINST, leads to errors that were obviously already made... I know this, there's too many people with good recovery, good bloods etc... from its use to not acknowledge it... There are people with bad experiences too... its just like anything else... there's guys that can't handle certain steroids and some that never get sides and love them... it will vary from person to person... Many of the most highly accomplished people in this field stand by it all the way and when you look at them and see their results and then listen to their knowledge, you tend to see they know what their talking about... Its all a learning process... You have a bright future and i know you do a lot of reading but you are very young and very inexperienced in your own use so you will have to do trial and error along the way to make the proper judgment...

 

[infraredline]

everyone is entitled to their own opinion but part of the problem is basing something on research, where there is contradicting research pointing in several areas and actually using the product, which you haven't yet... once you try it, and then you find it not for you, then that's one thing, but basing it on research alone without actual use, ESPECIALLY when there's contradictory research, FOR AND AGAINST, leads to errors that were obviously already made... I know this, there's too many people with good recovery, good bloods etc... from its use to not acknowledge it... There are people with bad experiences too... its just like anything else... there's guys that can't handle certain steroids and some that never get sides and love them... it will vary from person to person...

A very respectable response. I thank you for respecting my opinion. I will keep what you have said in mind.

 

[WolfpackAlpha]

U


everyone is entitled to their own opinion but part of the problem is basing something on research, where there is contradicting research pointing in several areas and actually using the product, which you haven't yet... once you try it, and then you find it not for you, then that's one thing, but basing it on research alone without actual use, ESPECIALLY when there's contradictory research, FOR AND AGAINST, leads to errors that were obviously already made... I know this, there's too many people with good recovery, good bloods etc... from its use to not acknowledge it... There are people with bad experiences too... its just like anything else... there's guys that can't handle certain steroids and some that never get sides and love them... it will vary from person to person... Many of the most highly accomplished people in this field stand by it all the way and when you look at them and see their results and then listen to their knowledge, you tend to see they know what their talking about... Its all a learning process... You have a bright future and i know you do a lot of reading but you are very young and very inexperienced in your own use so you will have to do trial and error along the way to make the proper judgment...

Well put Dylan, I wish more guys really understood the side effects of steroids (how about cancer with A50 use!) before they talk about "side effects" of nolvadex.

 

[Lou Super Man 123]

Well put Dylan, I wish more guys really understood the side effects of steroids (how about cancer with A50 use!) before they talk about "side effects" of nolvadex.

So true man and what about lipids?
I want to slap myself in the face on how HDL/LDL shifting is not a concern.

There are guys doing EAA's while bulking with fries and hamburguers and using ridiculous amounts of AI's.

At least you will be alive with cancer, gyno and shrunk balls...

 

[dylangemelli]

Well put Dylan, I wish more guys really understood the side effects of steroids (how about cancer with A50 use!) before they talk about "side effects" of nolvadex.

Very good point... All of this comes with a risk... Those companies HAVE to list ANY and ALL possible effects, even it has effected 1 out of 100 to simply cover their ass and that needs to be realized... There are POSSIBILITIES with pretty much everything out there, even over they counter medicines... That's just the way it is because we are all constructed differently...

 

[Machiavelli]

all I know is nolva made me feel like shit. i dont think it's a misconception at all to say most of the claims are bro-ology. i used it and stopped using it. when i tried the aromasin and unleashed route i recovered much better. i'd never go back.

 

[dylangemelli]

all I know is nolva made me feel like shit. i dont think it's a misconception at all to say most of the claims are bro-ology. i used it and stopped using it. when i tried the aromasin and unleashed route i recovered much better. i'd never go back.

Thats a great thing that you found what worked for YOU! That doesnt make it right for everyone

 

[Nelson Montana]

Thats a great thing that you found what worked for YOU! That doesnt make it right for everyone

Yeah, but nobody has a bad reaction to low dose Aromasin and UNLEASHED. That's part of the reason for making it the preferable option.

 

[dylangemelli]

Yeah, but nobody has a bad reaction to low dose Aromasin and UNLEASHED. That's part of the reason for making it the preferable option.

Last time i checked, i recommend unleashed in every pct protocol and do not recommend nolva each time so please, if you would, stop with this... If you bothered to thoroughly read, the point was that it has its place for some and certain situations and others it does not... You are entitled to your opinion and thats great but your point is CLEARLY stated OK???

 

[infraredline]

Last time i checked, i recommend unleashed in every pct protocol and do not recommend nolva each time so please, if you would, stop with this... If you bothered to thoroughly read, the point was that it has its place for some and certain situations and others it does not... You are entitled to your opinion and thats great but your point is CLEARLY stated OK???

I will confirm this, Dylan has always recommended unleashed in pct.

 

[ledhead]

I been tellin ya...

This is true!

Who on here still uses...

It's closed.. Open it back up!

 

[WolfpackAlpha]

Aromasin + Nolva works great on PCT, that's fact, add a few more PCT items like Ostarine and you're golden.

 

[bonacris]

So is
Clomid
Nolva
Aromasin
Unleashed
Post cycle
DAA

A decent PCT

Reason I ask is because I can get this stuff easier especially with irish customs clamping down lately

Sent from my GT-N7100 using EliteFitness

 

[stevesmi]

^^^ 1 SERM only is needed. and run at a low dose..

there are an assortment of natty supps that should be added to give you that on feeling. phyto-serms and T stack RX are my favorites but they are also heavy on the wallet. and then you have the cheaper natty's like test infusion, unleashed

and then something like TUDCA is a great idea to help cleanse your system as well.

 

[ceo]

Well put Dylan, I wish more guys really understood the side effects of steroids (how about cancer with A50 use!) before they talk about "side effects" of nolvadex.

As long as we are talking about misconceptions and errors...

That study you posted previously linking cancer with anadrol 50 use was done with a sample size of n=1. That single individual was already sick (Fanconi anemia) and had been receiving oxymetholone treatment for 9 years.

Most of those tumors that are somewhat common in FA pt's receiving androgen tx are androgen dependent benign adenomas (that subside if androgens are discontinued). This study cannot be compared to a healthy individual taking oxymetholone for 4-6 weeks.

 

[dylangemelli]

So is
Clomid
Nolva
Aromasin
Unleashed
Post cycle
DAA

A decent PCT

Reason I ask is because I can get this stuff easier especially with irish customs clamping down lately

Sent from my GT-N7100 using EliteFitness

more often i would recommend only one serm but if its an extensive cycle or very long then i would go with two...

if your going with two, here's what i would recommend...

clomid 50/50/25/25 AG-guys.com
nolva 40/20/20/20 AG-guys.com
unleahsed/post cycle combo ntbm.com
forma stanzol mrsupps.com
Keto burn MRSUPPS.COM
ostarine 25 mg day uniquemicals.com

Phytoserms and HCGenerate
can be used in place of the Unleashed/post cycle combo if they are out of stock

USE COUPON CODE DYLAN10 AT NEEDTOBUILDMUSCLE.COM FOR 10% OFF…

 

[bonacris]

Is nolva ok with 19nors. I'm relearning everything again I and I thought I seen ledhead say nolva with 19nors is ok

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[dylangemelli]

Is nolva ok with 19nors. I'm relearning everything again I and I thought I seen ledhead say nolva with 19nors is ok

Sent from my GT-N7100 using EliteFitness

There's articles and evidence showing its okay and Im not going to disagree with my boy led but im also going to abstain from answering that and let others chime in because there's going to be a variety of different answers pertaining to that question... I have a slight worry about that and would not fully recommend it but there is a lot of contradictory information in regards to it...

 

[Jbranken]

Like they say, one study contradicts another and blah blah but IMHO, its not worth the risk of using nolva with 19nors when there are other alternatives.


J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2005 May;95(1-5):83-9.

Aromatase inhibitors: cellular and molecular effects.

Miller WR, Anderson TJ, White S, Larionov A, Murray J, Evans D, Krause A, Dixon JM.

Breast Unit, Western General Hospital, Edinburgh, Scotland, UK. [email protected]

Marked cellular and molecular changes may occur in breast cancers following treatment of postmenopausal breast cancer patients with aromatase inhibitors. Neoadjuvant protocols, in which treatment is given with the primary tumour still within the breast, are particularly illuminating. In Edinburgh, we have shown that 3 months treatment with either anastrozole, exemestane or letrozole produces pathological responses in the majority of oestrogen receptor (ER)-rich tumours (39/59) as manifested by reduced cellularity/increased fibrosis. Changes in histological grading may also take place, most notably a reduction in mitotic figures. This probably reflects an influence on proliferation as most tumours (82%) show a marked decrease in the proliferation marker, Ki67. These effects are generally more dramatic than seen with tamoxifen given in the same setting.Differences between aromatase inhibitors and tamoxifen are also apparent in changes in steroid hormone expression. Thus, immuno-staining for progesterone receptor (PgR) is reduced in almost all cases by aromatase inhibitors, becoming undetectable in many. This contrasts with effects of tamoxifen in which the most common change on PgR is to increase expression. Changes in proliferation occur rapidly following the onset of exposure to aromatase inhibitors. Thus, neoadjuvant studies with letrozole in which tumour was sampled before and after 14 days and 3 months treatment show that decreased expression of Ki67 occur at 14 days and, in many cases, the effect is greater at 14 days than 3 months. These early changes precede evidence of clinical response but do not predict for it. However, this study design has allowed RNA analysis of sequential biopsies taken during the neoadjuvant therapy. Based on clustering techniques, it has been possible to subdivide tumours into groups showing distinct patterns of molecular changes. These changes in tumour gene expression may allow definition of tumour cohorts with differing sensitivity to aromatase inhibitors and permit early recognition of response and resistance.

 

[ledhead]

Is nolva ok with 19nors. I'm relearning everything again I and I thought I seen ledhead say nolva with 19nors is ok

Sent from my GT-N7100 using EliteFitness

Bro, if you are going to cite me, please cite me correctly. I been advocating for months on this site for people to get their ass in gear and start to: dose steroids correctly, eat clean, refrain from using steroids until BF is low, and do cardio; so they can control estrogen without having to use AIs and SERMS. Which I believe are totally counterproductive.

As for the 19-Nors, I been advocating for months that if estrogen is checked then prolactin will be checked, that is a biological law. Consequently, if a person can control estrogen naturally then AIs, Serms, and dopamine agonists will not be needed.

As for using aromatizing drugs in conjunction with 19-Nors; If it is imperative for that person to use something to control estrogen to prevent prolactin induced gyno, I say you can definitely run a serm like Nolva.

For every person who wants to get cute and post articles about how Nolva is not good to use while running 19-Nors I will counter them with an article that says Nolva works fine while running 19-Nors. There are thousands of articles that are conflicting about the subject.

This is where it gets good and where we get down to brass tacks because it becomes a neutral playing field, which I like because this forces people into conjuring up some balls to try out stuff through trial and error and finding out what works for them; instead of spouting out other people's opinions.

Remember, we are in a game where people react differently to different substances. Therefore, find out what you like and don't make the mistake of making it a universal truth.

Through my 20 years of BBing Nolva has done me right as a ant-E and PCT, which I figured out at this juncture in my BBing days that I don't need it at all...

 

[dylangemelli]

Bro, if you are going to cite me, please cite me correctly. I been advocating for months on this site for people to get their ass in gear and start to: dose steroids correctly, eat clean, refrain from using steroids until BF is low, and do cardio; so they can control estrogen without having to use AIs and SERMS. Which I believe are totally counterproductive.

As for the 19-Nors, I been advocating for months that if estrogen is checked then prolactin will be checked, that is a biological law. Consequently, if a person can control estrogen naturally then AIs, Serms, and dopamine agonists will not be needed.

As for using aromatizing drugs in conjunction with 19-Nors; If it is imperative for that person to use something to control estrogen to prevent prolactin induced gyno, I say you can definitely run a serm like Nolva.

For every person who wants to get cute and post articles about how Nolva is not good to use while running 19-Nors I will counter them with an article that says Nolva works fine while running 19-Nors. There are thousands of articles that are conflicting about the subject.

This is where it gets good and where we get down to brass tacks because it becomes a neutral playing field, which I like because this forces people into conjuring up some balls to try out stuff through trial and error and finding out what works for them; instead of spouting out other people's opinions.

Remember, we are in a game where people react differently to different substances. Therefore, find out what you like and don't make the mistake of making it a universal truth.

Through my 20 years of BBing Nolva has done me right as a ant-E and PCT, which I figured out this juncture in my BBing days that I don't need it all...

Once again, my good friend delivers a staggering bitch slap of reality...

 

[Anabolic Booster]

I think the only way to really judge the use of something is to try it . In my case I've done pcts with nolva and without nolva and it actually didn't seem to make a difference one way or the other. Using supplements seemed to help a little more so I'm sticking with that since using supps doesn't have any risk.

 

[bonacris]

I think the only way to really judge the use of something is to try it . In my case I've done pcts with nolva and without nolva and it actually didn't seem to make a difference one way or the other. Using supplements seemed to help a little more so I'm sticking with that since using supps doesn't have any risk.

I have had great success with test boosters but irish customs have really clamped down wherr even Hcgenerate arent getting through so I need other options

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[WolfpackAlpha]

As long as we are talking about misconceptions and errors...

That study you posted previously linking cancer with anadrol 50 use was done with a sample size of n=1. That single individual was already sick (Fanconi anemia) and had been receiving oxymetholone treatment for 9 years.

Most of those tumors that are somewhat common in FA pt's receiving androgen tx are androgen dependent benign adenomas (that subside if androgens are discontinued). This study cannot be compared to a healthy individual taking oxymetholone for 4-6 weeks.

You make a valid point, but the discussion about A50s causing cancer is more of a comparison. We have people complaining about "side effects" of a few mgs of nolva, while they forget that steroids have some nasty side effects. We shouldn't forget we are on a steroid forum and side effects are just a part of the business.

 

[Machiavelli]

You make a valid point, but the discussion about A50s causing cancer is more of a comparison. We have people complaining about "side effects" of a few mgs of nolva, while they forget that steroids have some nasty side effects. We shouldn't forget we are on a steroid forum and side effects are just a part of the business.

i dont think accepting side effects is part of business, i think avoiding them is. the whole point of pct is to avoid side effects. why take something that just gives more sides?

 

[Jbranken]

I think when it comes to your dick not working.. and the possibility of fluid leaking from your nipples.. it is better to be safe than sorry.

You can show me a million studies that says it's a myth.. but when it comes to Nolva with Tren or Nandrolone.. count me out.

That's how I feel about it. Im in no way saying that if someone uses nolva along side of a 19nor or in pct after a cycle including a 19nor that they'll inevitably get gyno, but after reviewing study after study, the scientific fact is that nolva does increase expression of the progesterone receptor. Knowing that I'm susceptible to gyno, ill steer clear of the combo. If you're someone who isn't normally prone then go ahead and roll the dice. If it works out for you then congrats, you're lucky, but that doesn't mean it won't effect others negatively.

 

[El Hefe]

People are always referring to the side effects of Nolva. 99% of the time, the side effect they're referring to is an emotional side effect.

I believe that's a very minor side effect and guys should be able to control their emotions - even on a serm.

Hell, aggression is an emotional side or by product of increased Test and we seem to manage. We don't run around killing people. We handle our sh1t.

And we shouldn't run around acting like girls because of a serm.

So, considering the numerous benefits of Nolva, and the very few sides, it can be very useful. Albeit not in every cycle or PCT, but it definitely has a place.

 

[WolfpackAlpha]

i dont think accepting side effects is part of business, i think avoiding them is. the whole point of pct is to avoid side effects. why take something that just gives more sides?

You're right, we are trying to avoid side effects; but in this game - no matter how much you try, you'll still get some sides. You can use all the AIs and diuretics you want, but you'll still get bloated from A50 use.

The whole point of this thread is to shed light on how tamox has been bashed to death without clear evidence or reason - over a claim of sides that pale in comparison to the side effects of anabolics we so often forget to discuss.

 

[Machiavelli]

You're right, we are trying to avoid side effects; but in this game - no matter how much you try, you'll still get some sides. You can use all the AIs and diuretics you want, but you'll still get bloated from A50 use.

The whole point of this thread is to shed light on how tamox has been bashed to death without clear evidence or reason - over a claim of sides that pale in comparison to the side effects of anabolics we so often forget to discuss.

yeah but anabolics build muscle .

 

[ceo]

You make a valid point, but the discussion about A50s causing cancer is more of a comparison. We have people complaining about "side effects" of a few mgs of nolva, while they forget that steroids have some nasty side effects. We shouldn't forget we are on a steroid forum and side effects are just a part of the business.

Now they cause cancer?!

 

[WolfpackAlpha]

Now they cause cancer?!

just saw this thread (must have missed it)....


Since oxymetholone was listed in the First Annual Report on Carcinogens, additional case reports, primarily of liver cancer, have been identified. Some of the reports were of patients with Fanconi’s anemia who developed leukemia, liver cancer, or esophageal cancer following oxymetholone treatment (IARC 1987, Linares et al. 1991); Fanconi’s anemia patients are at increased risk for acute myeloid leukemia and squamous-cell carcinoma of the head, neck, and ano-genital regions (Auerbach 2009). Case reports of liver cancer and one report of bile-duct cancer (ampullary carcinoma) also have been reported in patients undergoing oxymetholone treatment for other conditions (Kosaka et al. 1996, Nakao et al. 2000, Fujino et al. 2001, Socas et al. 2005).


..........a cancer study in rats has been identified. Administration of oxymetholone by stomach tube increased the combined incidence of benign and malignant liver tumors hepatocellular adenoma and carcinoma) in female rats. Benign lung tumors and benign and malignant skin tumors in female rats also were considered to be related to oxymetholone exposure (NTP 1999)

 

[stevesmi]

if i was prone to cancer i would not want to put anything in my body that caused any type of anabolism or growth. this would include certain foods, certain drugs, or yes hormones. obviously carcinogens and other environmental factors have a huge effect as well.

 

[ceo]

if i was prone to cancer i would not want to put anything in my body that caused any type of anabolism or growth. this would include certain foods, certain drugs, or yes hormones. obviously carcinogens and other environmental factors have a huge effect as well.

Especially if you were already sick and had a weak immune system. Then you really wouldn't want to take those drugs for, oh I don't know...like 9 years.

My point still stands. Throwing the same types of studies at it doesn't change anything.

 

[northernknight]

Tamoxifen is carcinogenic, so IMO it's strange to bring up A50 theoretically causing cancer as comparison to Nolva side effects. Just something I picked up from gazillion posts bashing Nolva, it doesn't cause cancer just in theory, but it's actual registered carcinogen (by USA FDA I suppose, don't remember specifically). I don't think Oxymethelone is officially listed carcinogenic same way like Nolva is. Not sure about this though, I could be wrong.
Everything linking it to cancer is just some very feeble studies conducted to subjects that were already pre exposed bc. of weakend immune system etc. I think those studies would have had same outcome if instead of Oxymethelone patients would have been treated for example with Oxadrolone, or any other similar drug. I just picked Anavar since it's usually considered "safe" and mild compound.

I still have nothing against Nolva, many things are carcinogenic to some degree just something that I didn't notice mentioned in this thread. It definitely has it's own place, and I personally always preferred it over Clomid. Now days I just keep it on hand in case of gyno flare up, or to run along side with AI if there's need to be extra cautious for some reason.

If I wasn't on TRT and would still use SERM in my PCT, I would try out some more recent SERMs like Torem or Ralox in place of Nolva/Clomid. What I have red about them, it seems that they both would work great for PCT.

Just my opinion/opinions.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 4

 

[ledhead]

Wow! This thread is still going on... Everyone just come in for the big win with Nolva..

 

[wootoom]

I've never used it I can't really respond to it

 

[WolfpackAlpha]

Wow! This thread is still going on... Everyone just come in for the big win with Nolva..

Nolvadex won the day. facts are facts

 

[ceo]

Nolvadex won the day. facts are facts

I've always stood by her. Head and shoulders above clomid too.

 

[WolfpackAlpha]

Great, glad to see people are looking at both sides of the coin. Great discussion Dylan.

 

[dylangemelli]

Great, glad to see people are looking at both sides of the coin. Great discussion Dylan.

Thanks bro... its great to have all the facts out there and for everyone to be able to compare everything for themselves... there are a lot of benefits that were overlooked in the past and they needed to be brought to the table for everyone to see...

 

[WolfpackAlpha]

Thanks bro... its great to have all the facts out there and for everyone to be able to compare everything for themselves... there are a lot of benefits that were overlooked in the past and they needed to be brought to the table for everyone to see...

Yup, you really opened people's eyes bro. Well done.

 

[WolfpackAlpha]

Just bumping this great classic for all to read.