Millions can't find family doctor (Ah, The Joys of socialized medicine)

[Lao Tzu]

>"A Canadian hospital negotiates its annual budget with the provincial health plan and >receives a single check each month to cover virtually all of its expenses,"

Yeah, that's EASY to do when 80% of your health-care budget is like 5 hospitals in the province. It's pretty easy to drive up and check up on how things are going.

Add another few HUNDRED MILLION people to the mix, a few THOUSAND more hospitals, INCREASE crime, and add MILLIONS of illegals hellbent on abusing the hell out of it -- and even Canada's beloved "wait 8 hours to see a doctor" health system would crash and burn.

And we're not EVEN getting into the logistics of pricing levels, profit incentives, and administrative costs like Matt explained exhaustively.

I've used that Canadian system. Honestly, the only advantage it gives is for people who live in rural far away areas who don't have much money to be able to fly in a helicopter from Yukon to Calgary for a heart transplant. The rest of the 90% of the population -- it is a nightmare system based around 1950's technology. Toronto is probalby the worst place to get medical treatment right now.

While you're doing your little internet searches -- look up "Canadian hospital crisis financial fund drive" while you're at it.

I can't look up "canadian hospital financial fund drive" im busy looking up "nerdy IT guys with bands that go nowhere". All my browsers are busy.

And Canada isn't hte only developed country with universal access. all developed countries except the US have this, you can compare the US to other countries too. Robert Jan seems to like his system more than ours. So does Vynalgroover.

I still don't see how this applies/matters about Canada being provinces. The US is a nation that is urban as well. It wouldn't suprise me if over half our people live in the 100 most populated towns here. I think about 5% live in LA and NYC alone.

Canada (i think) has an immigration problem. So does most/all of europe, australia and new zealand. they still have universal access and still spend less to give heatlhcare to everyone than we do here in the US.

As far as Matts viewpoints on administration costs and their relationship to government spending, i've posted 2 articles that said the opposite. I trust harvard medical professionals more than he and you combined for some reason.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Yup, thats clear. Its also not something i agree with for 2 reasons.

The first is medical care costs 10x more because there is 10x more of it to use. We also spend much more on many more types of entertainment. You can't compare the world of 40 years ago to the world of today as there are many more options and processes to choose from nowadays. Treatments were not as advanced and there weren't as many of them, this makes up a large % of medical cost increases.

This all fits the model I have described.

The availability of things increases proportionally to the money spent on it. Think of efficiency as a multiplier. If I spend $1T, I get huge improvements. If I spend $1T inefficiently, I still get improvement. With that kind of money, something good happens, right? If I spend $1T efficiently, I get the maximum benefit.

From the provider end, it matters not where the money comes from. There is still lots of money for R&D and treatment. This is a good thing, but not an argument you ever advanced. This is what happens when you plug in a source of unlimited money.

In ignoring this argument, you overlooked its corollary downside: You raise the cost of everything for everyone. The government's money (really, our money, confiscated) has made some real breakthroughs possible. It has also made health care super expensive for people who have to pay.

The 40 years ago stuff is irrelevant. The unlimited payor is the difference.

Your explanation still doesn't hold water because no other country spends as much as the US does on healthcare even though government pays a larger percentage of healthcare costs in those places. Am i to understand more privitization will end this? You are skirting the issue on the fact that an independent article says your idea of privitization is more corrupt and inefficient than a government sponsored program.

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsArticle.jhtml?type=healthNews&storyID=5365605&section=news

I'm not skirting shit, brother.

When the free market sets the cost of something, efficiency is maximized and prices are as low as they can get. When something is socialized, prices are controlled by extra-market forces, namely, legislation. When people bitch, government acts.

But it acts in a heavy handed across the board manner. So you will get policies like "you need a referral for a specialist" for EVERYTHING. Referrals will get harder to get, lines at the doctor's office will be 4 hours long to get a referral (!) and fewer people will use the system. Some fat woman who has been there 20 years, and is waiting for that lifetime pension will tell you she cannot help you until you have a "Form 34, Form 36, and Form 112B. And your gateway physician didn;t notarize it. Come back tomorrow."

Costs will drop. So will quality of care.

In both a free market and a socialized scenario, there is a cap on expenditures: market forces and legislation, respectively. Our US model is a hybrid. The government pays for some, and not for others. So, some people have an unlimited payor, which means they use what they need with no regard.

Prices skyrocket. And unlike the socialized model, government has no recourse to legislatively lower prices. Private insured's want the same treatment, and prices goup up up. So do premiums. That's why Velvett pays $500 a month when she is young and healthy. We could ask her, but I doubt her healthcare cost $6000 last year. I know mine didn't. I don;t even know what I pay.

It;s Grandma's fault. And Big brother. Your family is just screwing you.

We have the worst of all worlds from a cost standpoint: partial socialization - for the most expensive group, with no recourse to force prices down.

You want to drop costs: get Grandma off the dole pronto. I could actually live with socialized healthcare for everyone under 25. There is a logic to it.

"And experts who wrote a commentary on the study said converting all investor-owned hospitals to nonprofit status could have saved $6 billion in 2001............Investor-owned hospitals charge outrageous prices for inferior care"

Garbage. Show me an economic thought process behind anything you are posting, not just stats.

As far as your views on medicare overhead, I don't consider you unbiased enough to be a trustworthy person on issues of government interventions (its like asking Rush Limbaugh who i should vote for) so i don't take your explanations seriously without independent proof. 'your explanation' is just that as far as i'm concerned until i see independent evidence. I am trying to find something online by using the words 'medicare 3% overhead myth' but can't find anything.

Try looking up "CAPITALISM". Learn to love it.

I didn;t give you "evidence", I gave you a rationale behind why things break down the way your stats tell you. What evidence do you need?

You know a claim is processed. That is unchanged for any provider.

 

[Razorguns]

>with bands that go nowhere

I never knew "tribute" bands where even supposed to go somewhere. Newsflash to me...

 

[bluepeter]

>"A Canadian hospital negotiates its annual budget with the provincial health plan and >receives a single check each month to cover virtually all of its expenses,"

Yeah, that's EASY to do when 80% of your health-care budget is like 5 hospitals in the province. It's pretty easy to drive up and check up on how things are going.

Add another few HUNDRED MILLION people to the mix, a few THOUSAND more hospitals, INCREASE crime, and add MILLIONS of illegals hellbent on abusing the hell out of it -- and even Canada's beloved "wait 8 hours to see a doctor" health system would crash and burn.

And we're not EVEN getting into the logistics of pricing levels, profit incentives, and administrative costs like Matt explained exhaustively.

I've used that Canadian system. Honestly, the only advantage it gives is for people who live in rural far away areas who don't have much money to be able to fly in a helicopter from Yukon to Calgary for a heart transplant. The rest of the 90% of the population -- it is a nightmare system based around 1950's technology. Toronto is probalby the worst place to get medical treatment right now.

While you're doing your little internet searches -- look up "Canadian hospital crisis financial fund drive" while you're at it.

I thought I cleared some of this up earlier but I guess not. You may have lived in Canada at one time but you have no clue what you're talking about. I've lived in Toronto all my life and I have NEVER had to wait to see a doctor for anything. I have 2 children and they have NEVER had to wait for any medical care whether it be a case of the sniffles or a fever or what.

5 hospitals per province? Are you 150 years old? Those numbers appear to be based in the 19th century. There are hospitals everywhere, in every damn little shitkicker town all across the province. I can't speak for other provinces but I'm relatively sure it's no different. On top of that, if it is not an emergency and you can't get an immediate appointment with your regular physician, walk down the street to one of the HUNDREDS of walk-in clinics, pass them your health card and you can see a physician in less than 15 minutes..........and you don't get billed for it.

I have had eye surgery, my mother has had numerous complicated back operations, many people in my extended family have had major surgery. NEVER ONCE did any of them have to wait months for these procedures.

We do have long wait times at many of our hospital emergency rooms but that is due to idiots going to emergency when they have a fucking cold and to government cutbacks (I mentioned before that any current deficiencies in the system are 95% due to government waste and incompetency - I see where Matt is coming from here..........). This is only in urban centers though. If I go to my parents house in the country (by the way Razor, they live in a small community with about 500 people and they have a 1st class hospital with all the latest technology - what were you saying again?), I breeze into emergency and see a doctor within 10 minutes most days.

You want to debate the relative merits of the 2 differing systems? Go ahead but stop making it seem like my country lives in the fucking dark ages where it comes to medical care. I can get the same quality care as you do every day and I don't have to pay for it.

I have said a million times that both systems have drawbacks. I like the universal healthcare system better because it fits into my value system better. Those of you that disagree have different ideologies. Let's try and keep the ideological away from the actual machinations of the 2 systems.

Carry on.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

I have said a million times that both systems have drawbacks. I like the universal healthcare system better because it fits into my value system better. Those of you that disagree have different ideologies. Let's try and keep the ideological away from the actual machinations of the 2 systems.

Carry on.

For the sake of clarification, the US does not have a private system. It has a partially socialized system.

 

[bluepeter]

For the sake of clarification, the US does not have a private system. It has a partially socialized system.

Right.

 

[c-sharp minor]

I thought I cleared some of this up earlier but I guess not. You may have lived in Canada at one time but you have no clue what you're talking about. I've lived in Toronto all my life and I have NEVER had to wait to see a doctor for anything. I have 2 children and they have NEVER had to wait for any medical care whether it be a case of the sniffles or a fever or what.

5 hospitals per province? Are you 150 years old? Those numbers appear to be based in the 19th century. There are hospitals everywhere, in every damn little shitkicker town all across the province. I can't speak for other provinces but I'm relatively sure it's no different. On top of that, if it is not an emergency and you can't get an immediate appointment with your regular physician, walk down the street to one of the HUNDREDS of walk-in clinics, pass them your health card and you can see a physician in less than 15 minutes..........and you don't get billed for it.

QUOTE]

Exactly.


I have been in and out of Hospitals (mostly due to having a disabled ex g/f) literally HUNDREDS of times in the last 4 years.

We NEVER had to wait...EVER.

Heck, my mom had a heart attack just last week and is getting excellent treatment at a brand spanking new healthcare facility in her town.

I honestly do not know anyone, personally, who has ever had problems with our healthcare system.

It has it's drawbacks, obviously, but seems to be working well enough.

Need coffee....too early for me.

 

[Code]

Have you ever had to get major surgery?
The waiting list for heart surgery is pretty long, which is why cardio-thorasic surgeons in America make so much damn money of your froggy cannucks.

Ever have to get radiation or chemotherapy? Some of the people who sit beside me at the chemotherapy stations are Canadian. The one I talk the most with said she was on a waiting list for chemo that extended beyond her prognosis. Cool thing free medical is huh??

I thought I cleared some of this up earlier but I guess not. You may have lived in Canada at one time but you have no clue what you're talking about. I've lived in Toronto all my life and I have NEVER had to wait to see a doctor for anything. I have 2 children and they have NEVER had to wait for any medical care whether it be a case of the sniffles or a fever or what.

 

[bluepeter]

Have you ever had to get major surgery?
The waiting list for heart surgery is pretty long, which is why cardio-thorasic surgeons in America make so much damn money of your froggy cannucks.

Ever have to get radiation or chemotherapy? Some of the people who sit beside me at the chemotherapy stations are Canadian. The one I talk the most with said she was on a waiting list for chemo that extended beyond her prognosis. Cool thing free medical is huh??

I'm sounding like a broken record here. Yes, there are wait times at our emergency rooms and for some surgery. It is due to government cutbacks on staffing because our government idiots do not know how to run a country without wasting billions on administrative and other bullshit. It IS NOT due to our 'free medical' system. Our 'free medical' system worked like a well oiled machine for decades before the last 10 years of govermental fuckups.

and read my previous post. I and much of my family have had major surgery, eye, back, kidney, heart etc. and none have ever had to wait a protracted time. My uncle died from liver cancer last year but his initial prognosis was to only live 6 months. He lasted nearly 2 years because he got into chemo immediately..........

For the last time, our country has healthcare problems (as does the US and every other country) due to government mismanagement. It does not have problems due to our 'socialized, universal healthcare system'. That has been proven over and over again in our country to work beautifully.

Thank you

 

[Razorguns]

I wish i could post articles, news stories and government reports on the waiting times for emergencies and various medical services throughout various parts of Canada. I do not just "pull facts out of a hat". This is from actual investigative news sources. It's NOT uncommon to wait 8 hours in some cities to get emergency medical treatment. And are you NOT in agreement -- that Canada's hospitals are lagging in modern technology and availabilty of funds for expansion, more personnel and better treatment??? Most hospitals I read are still in crisis mode when it comes to finances.

Great by-product of the socialist healthcare system. All that money and they're STILL broke and under-staffed.

>before the last 10 years of govermental fuckups.

No, the problem is the government never took into accordance the insertion of 300,000+ immigrants every single year. All which puts a major strain on the healthcare system as soon as they get here. The amount of medical services, hospital beds, availablity of well-trained doctors, medical equipment as well as budgets for most provinces have NEVER kept up accordingly with the population increases. In some cases it has DECREASED.

If i went to Cedars-Sinai here in Beverly Hills -- trust me, i do NOT expect to be told they only have *1* doctor right now on staff and to come back in 8 hours.

And let's NOT even get into the huge disparity in salaries and incentives between US and Canadian doctors. Another reason many of the country's brightest head south.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

I'm sounding like a broken record here. Yes, there are wait times at our emergency rooms and for some surgery. It is due to government cutbacks on staffing because our government idiots do not know how to run a country without wasting billions on administrative and other bullshit. It IS NOT due to our 'free medical' system. Our 'free medical' system worked like a well oiled machine for decades before the last 10 years of govermental fuckups.

You are sounding like a broken record. It is appreciated though, some people will listen, others won't.

You are missing one point, though. The issue is not "the last 10 years of government fuck-ups". It is not as if your government of 10 years ago was somehow smarter, better, more talented, and they have been replaced by zoo animals.

Rather, the expenses associated with the system are growing and - I suspect - voters are clamoring for some sort of cost control. So the politicians give it to them. As government always does, they act in a heavy handed manner and make across the board cuts without awareness of the specific outcomes. Government never trims spending without people clamoring for it.

Reduced staff and the like are the result of these cuts. Canadians are willing to bear a high tax burden. However, the costs of the health care programs will continue to go up, since there are no MARKET forces acting to control them, only legislation.

Note that legislation acts by cutting staff, (or whatever) not by increasing efficiencies, which is how a market fixes costs.

The cost of services is the same (to government, the payor) yet the amount of people providing them has decreased. Assuredly, this will continue. Eventually, there will be cuts in other areas, in order to meet the public's cry for "affordable healthcare".

The price of the services (drugs, hospitals, whatever) NEVER come down absent the action of a free market. If the price is forced down, you can be assured that quality will follow by definiton.

This is why universal healthcare is inherently flawed. You either get reduced amounts of services (happening in Canada now, according to you, staff cuts) or you get reduced quality of service...which, is coming. The last option is a tax increase, meaning that maintaining the same level of care costs more. However, without market forces, the same dollar cannot deliver MORE.

There is no corrective market action. The system is innately inefficient.

For the last time, our country has healthcare problems (as does the US and every other country) due to government mismanagement. It does not have problems due to our 'socialized, universal healthcare system'. That has been proven over and over again in our country to work beautifully.

Thank you

I am repeating myself too. It is not "mismanagement". It is, economically, the only possible outcome in a universal system.

 

[bluepeter]

I wish i could post articles, news stories and government reports on the waiting times for emergencies and various medical services throughout various parts of Canada. I do not just "pull facts out of a hat". This is from actual investigative news sources. It's NOT uncommon to wait 8 hours in some cities to get emergency medical treatment. And are you NOT in agreement -- that Canada's hospitals are lagging in modern technology and availabilty of funds for expansion, more personnel and better treatment??? Most hospitals I read are still in crisis mode when it comes to finances.

Great by-product of the socialist healthcare system. All that money and they're STILL broke and under-staffed.

>before the last 10 years of govermental fuckups.

No, the problem is the government never took into accordance the insertion of 300,000+ immigrants every single year. All which puts a major strain on the healthcare system as soon as they get here. The amount of medical services, hospital beds, availablity of well-trained doctors, medical equipment as well as budgets for most provinces have NEVER kept up accordingly with the population increases. In some cases it has DECREASED.

If i went to Cedars-Sinai here in Beverly Hills -- trust me, i do NOT expect to be told they only have *1* doctor right now on staff and to come back in 8 hours.

And let's NOT even get into the huge disparity in salaries and incentives between US and Canadian doctors. Another reason many of the country's brightest head south.

*sigh* read my previous posts. It has nothing to do with the 'socialist' system we operate under and everything to do with government mismanagement. We have had huge influxes of immigrants for years and none of this was a problem. It only became a problem in the last 8 years under our Federal Liberal government and their excellent handling of our tax dollars.

 

[Razorguns]

The reason your "new" government is struggling to keep up a respectable level of health-care in the country, is, as Matt succintly described -- due to the system itself.

It's akin to trying to package a pinto for a car race. It's futile, frustrating and involves just tacking on more and more expensive additions to try to make it faster.

Now if Canada had tried to reach a balance of socialist and market-driven in terms of the industry -- that I could understand to a point. And perhaps could be even commendable. But just merely solving the problem by wastefully throwing out taxpayer dollars and getting VERY LITTLE back for that dollar, is a disservice for every Canadian out there.

Nothing like paying 15% sales tax and exoburent income taxes and still getting second-rate health-care compared to the US. Not bad compared to the rest of the world, but still second-rate.

You'd be surprised at how well a free market, profit-driven, capitalist industry can result in efficiency and advances that beforehand, was unheard of. Ask any government agency that decided to "outsource" certain elements of their department to the private industry and all the benefits they got out of it. Which of course, speaks volumes of the INEFFICIENCY of government workers as well. But that's another discussion.

 

[bluepeter]

The reason your "new" government is struggling to keep up a respectable level of health-care in the country, is, as Matt succintly described -- due to the system itself.

Nope. As I have repeated ad nauseum on this thread, the system functioned perfectly FOR DECADES with huge influxes of immigrants. In the last decade, we have had increasing problems with our government farting tax dollars out of their ass rather than putting them where they need to go. This does not only affect healthcare, it affects our education system, it affects our social programs, it affects our road systems, if affects everything. We just recently had a government scandal where it was discovered they pissed away over a billion dollars. That's just the tip of the iceberg and you don't think if that money was allocated correctly that our staffing levels would have increased and our wait times would decrease? We pay essentially the same in taxes we did 20 years ago and our population hasn't increased tenfold so do the fucking math.

It's akin to trying to package a pinto for a car race. It's futile, frustrating and involves just tacking on more and more expensive additions to try to make it faster.

See above.

wastefully throwing out taxpayer dollars and getting VERY LITTLE back for that dollar, is a disservice for every Canadian out there.

I know, I believe that's what I've said 15 times already.

Nothing like paying 15% sales tax and exoburent income taxes and still getting second-rate health-care compared to the US. Not bad compared to the rest of the world, but still second-rate.

It isn't 2nd rate to anybody. It isn't perfect as I've said 20 times. I reiterate again, we pay the same taxes we pay now that we paid 20 years ago and our system then was IMO, one of if not the best around.

You'd be surprised at how well a free market, profit-driven, capitalist industry can result in efficiency and advances that beforehand, was unheard of. Ask any government agency that decided to "outsource" certain elements of their department to the private industry and all the benefits they got out of it. Which of course, speaks volumes of the INEFFICIENCY of government workers as well. But that's another discussion.

I believe government inefficiency is something I have mentioned a few times on here.....can't remember exactly where.

I would not be surprised how it works because I have lived in the US and have family that lives there.

In terms of government agencies privatizing services, I've seen this happen many times and sometimes benefits are derived from it but many other times, the cost of that service goes through the roof.

 

[bluepeter]

As an example to you Razor, residents of Toronto paid 9 billion more in taxes to our federal government last year than we got back in services. How's that for a bunch of shit? How do you think that money would have served to fix some of the problems I have outlined?

 

[Razorguns]

> I reiterate again, we pay the same taxes we pay now that we paid 20 years ago

The fact that such a grossly incorrect statement is being passed around like fact in your argument, is beyond amazement.

Care to back that statement up with facts?

You still seem to be clutching to your "let's blame the politicians" agenda. You sure you aren't American? In that case -- i can only refer you back to Matt's well though-out and definatively explained explanation above. No sense in me re-iterating the same logic in pretty much the same words.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Nope. As I have repeated ad nauseum on this thread, the system functioned perfectly FOR DECADES with huge influxes of immigrants. In the last decade, we have had increasing problems with our government farting tax dollars out of their ass rather than putting them where they need to go.

You've just hit the core of the problem of socialization; there is no free market to determine where the dollars need to go.

The heart of capitalism is that money flows where returns are greatest. Therefore, inefficiencies in the system are corrected as money seeks the highest return. Inefficiency produces a lower return than efficiency, every time.

This is why a true free healthcare market is the only way to reduce costs as low as they can go to everyone.

Will everyone be able to afford them? No. Never. Capitalism is not idealism, idealism has no place in this world when setting policy. However, when prices are set by the free market, they are as low as they can possibly be without decreasing quality.

This should be any government's aim.

I really appreciate all of your posts on this thread bluepeter.

 

[bluepeter]

> I reiterate again, we pay the same taxes we pay now that we paid 20 years ago

The fact that such a grossly incorrect statement is being passed around like fact in your argument, is beyond amazement.

Care to back that statement up with facts?

You still seem to be clutching to your "let's blame the politicians" agenda. You sure you aren't American? In that case -- i can only refer you back to Matt's well though-out and definatively explained explanation above. No sense in me re-iterating the same logic in pretty much the same words.

How can I not blame the politicians when I see them not returing my tax dollars in services? How can I not blame them when the result of that is healthcare cuts, education cuts, deteriorating roads etc.? The evidence is all around me and I actually live here.

In terms of how much I pay in taxes, I'm sorry if you apparently know my paycheque better than I.

 

[Razorguns]

How can I not blame the politicians when I see them not returing my tax dollars in services? How can I not blame them when the result of that is healthcare cuts, education cuts, deteriorating roads etc.? The evidence is all around me and I actually live here.

You *should* blame them. It *IS* their job to ensure PROPER healthcare to all, and ensure it is of the HIGHEST quality possible. That's what they're paid for.

But what the real issue is just HOW to go about getting it. Having the government sticking their hand and controlling an industry which, in all other industries in the free world, a free market capitalist run design -- places undue limitations in almost every sector of that industry. All of which results in inadequecies, inefficiencies, lack of investment capital and gross misuse of funds. Systematic dysfunctions, which as you have described, are pretty well-documented.

The knee-jerk reaction is of course throw more money at it, lay off people, hire people, etc. But the simpleton's band-aid solution isn't the *best* solution. The problem goes deeper than that. Understanding the root of the problem is the *key* to fixing it.

 

[bluepeter]

You've just hit the core of the problem of socialization; there is no free market to determine where the dollars need to go.

The heart of capitalism is that money flows where returns are greatest. Therefore, inefficiencies in the system are corrected as money seeks the highest return. Inefficiency produces a lower return than efficiency, every time.

This is why a true free healthcare market is the only way to reduce costs as low as they can go to everyone.

Will everyone be able to afford them? No. Never. Capitalism is not idealism, idealism has no place in this world when setting policy. However, when prices are set by the free market, they are as low as they can possibly be without decreasing quality.

This should be any government's aim.

I really appreciate all of your posts on this thread bluepeter.

You must spread some karma around before giving it to MattTheSkywalker again