Libor...WTF?

[digimon7068]

Are you saying that having the rich pay tax is fair, and having them pay more than the poor is fair, but having them pay a larger % than they currently do isn't fair? Well, then we agree on basic principle, and simply disagree on where to set the tax rate.

Why is the current 35% the limit? When Republicans used reconciliation to pass the Bush tax cuts, they set a 10 year limit on it, knowing that depending on the state of the economy and the state of the deficit, the tax cuts may no longer be appropriate.
And they were right, and todays Republicans are a whole different breed who can't see the practicality of that expiration under the current circumstances. 35% is really really low. Raising it to 39% Obama wants to set it back to is still really low, historically speaking.

A whole different problem is the capital gains rate at 15%. the richest people make most of their money in capital gains anyway, and are paying closer to 15% instead of the 35% for ordinary income. That's just wrong.




It depends on how you look at it. We all use the same roads, but some paid more in taxes than others to fund those roads. The same could be said of defense, etc. Sounds like redistribution to me. As for Entitlement programs, they are designed not just to give people free money, but to benefit society as a whole. Republicans tend to only look at the abuse of those programs, and democrats tend to only see the positives of them. The truth lies in between, but overall, I think the richest country on earth without welfare, social security, or unemployment insurance would be immoral, and I think overall it works, despite some abuse.



People with private healthcare already pay for those who don't have it! The AHA (Obamacare)would actually help to fix that, by making people pay for what they will sooner or later need to have.

No one redistributes wealth like private healthcare insurance. And the first cut, right off the top, goes into the yachts and mansions of the executives. In some countries that is illegal and immoral.


But the best thing about social healthcare is that countries that have it have lower costs and better outcomes than we do. So it fits perfectly with what taxes should be used for, like you said: To pay for something that will benefit us all.

actually? i totally agree with you there.

but, i also believe that all of these special credits, especially the refundable ones, are wrong too. your theories on who is really paying taxes in this country are a bit skewed. because, almost no one is. you have kids?? you get a tax credit. are any of them in college?? you get another tax credit. is your household income less than $80,000 a year too?? you get a refundable tax credit...that means you get back more than you paid in. is your household income less than $50,470 too?? you get a refundable earned income credit...that means you get a LOT more back than you paid in.

if our citizens are really as bad off financially as you believe, do you have any idea how many of them are receiving "refunds" that significantly exceed the taxes that they paid in during the year???

 

[Jack steel]

Are you saying that having the rich pay tax is fair, and having them pay more than the poor is fair, but having them pay a larger % than they currently do isn't fair? Well, then we agree on basic principle, and simply disagree on where to set the tax rate.

Why is the current 35% the limit? When Republicans used reconciliation to pass the Bush tax cuts, they set a 10 year limit on it, knowing that depending on the state of the economy and the state of the deficit, the tax cuts may no longer be appropriate.
And they were right, and todays Republicans are a whole different breed who can't see the practicality of that expiration under the current circumstances. 35% is really really low. Raising it to 39% Obama wants to set it back to is still really low, historically speaking.

A whole different problem is the capital gains rate at 15%. the richest people make most of their money in capital gains anyway, and are paying closer to 15% instead of the 35% for ordinary income. That's just wrong.





It depends on how you look at it. We all use the same roads, but some paid more in taxes than others to fund those roads. The same could be said of defense, etc. Sounds like redistribution to me. As for Entitlement programs, they are designed not just to give people free money, but to benefit society as a whole. Republicans tend to only look at the abuse of those programs, and democrats tend to only see the positives of them. The truth lies in between, but overall, I think the richest country on earth without welfare, social security, or unemployment insurance would be immoral, and I think overall it works, despite some abuse.



People with private healthcare already pay for those who don't have it! The AHA (Obamacare)would actually help to fix that, by making people pay for what they will sooner or later need to have.

No one redistributes wealth like private healthcare insurance. And the first cut, right off the top, goes into the yachts and mansions of the executives. In some countries that is illegal and immoral.


But the best thing about social healthcare is that countries that have it have lower costs and better outcomes than we do. So it fits perfectly with what taxes should be used for, like you said: To pay for something that will benefit us all.

Yes I guess we do agree there then. But other countries having better outcomes is just wrong. In fact we already have socialized healthcare here for veterans, and let me tell you they don't even come close to being decent, and that's about 1% of the country (not counting illegals). There's not a snowballs Chance in hell that socialized healthcare is a good idea.

 

[redsamurai]

i live in a small town and i have lots of clients that are in the upper 5% of household incomes...and most of them are desperately looking to hire people right now too but they can't because obama keeps extending unemployment and no one wants to go back to work...the unemployment statistics are significantly skewed.

oh that's such bullshit...sorry Digi i like you but fuck man i am so tired of that. If there's companies hiring it's in manual labor stuff which still requires "skills". Nobody's going to hire people to run CNC or Welders who have never in their life operated such machines. For "decades" this society has been steering people to a certain skillset, and now we're paying for it. The jobs that people can do, they ain't hirin and you know that. This argument so called job creators are putting forth that nobody wants to work cause it's just soooo good to be on unemployment...you fucking kidding? C'mon digi you're smart enough to smell bullshit there. These "job crreeeters" are just trying to strongarm the govt. If they hired now, which they utterly could cause they're swimming in cash....it would prove that they could operate just fine in higher tax environments. It's pure propaganda on their part.

 

[redsamurai]

I actually 35% should be the absolute maximum anyone pays, but they shouldn't be able to hide their money anywhere. I would even go so far as to say lower it to 30% BUT THEY FUCKING PAY IT OR THEY GO TO FEDERAL POUND ME IN THE ASS PENITENTIARY where guess what is mandatory? I'm serious, people who are worth hundreds of millions of dollars hiding their money should be sodomized...dead serious. THe problem is what the govt does with the tax pool as it is. Even if you lowered the tax rate, or implimented a flat tax...which i'm down for....the govt would still be "rolling" in cash. And priority number one with all that cash is providing the socialized programs which are necessary for our society, places where the free market fails miserably. Education as just one example, if privateers ran education in this country they would only open up schools in the area's where people could afford what would amount to current private school fees. Nobody is going into the poor neighborhoods to educate anybody....and suggestions to the contrary are a product of a delusional fugue like stupor you should crack your skull inot the nearest brick wall immediately in order to remediate. It's in societies best interest to give people baseline educations. The sytem sucks currently because our society sucks, if there's a problem we feel the answer is to throw more cash at it. NObody gives a fuck about anything is the issue.

Are you saying that having the rich pay tax is fair, and having them pay more than the poor is fair, but having them pay a larger % than they currently do isn't fair? Well, then we agree on basic principle, and simply disagree on where to set the tax rate.

Why is the current 35% the limit? When Republicans used reconciliation to pass the Bush tax cuts, they set a 10 year limit on it, knowing that depending on the state of the economy and the state of the deficit, the tax cuts may no longer be appropriate.
And they were right, and todays Republicans are a whole different breed who can't see the practicality of that expiration under the current circumstances. 35% is really really low. Raising it to 39% Obama wants to set it back to is still really low, historically speaking.

A whole different problem is the capital gains rate at 15%. the richest people make most of their money in capital gains anyway, and are paying closer to 15% instead of the 35% for ordinary income. That's just wrong.





It depends on how you look at it. We all use the same roads, but some paid more in taxes than others to fund those roads. The same could be said of defense, etc. Sounds like redistribution to me. As for Entitlement programs, they are designed not just to give people free money, but to benefit society as a whole. Republicans tend to only look at the abuse of those programs, and democrats tend to only see the positives of them. The truth lies in between, but overall, I think the richest country on earth without welfare, social security, or unemployment insurance would be immoral, and I think overall it works, despite some abuse.



People with private healthcare already pay for those who don't have it! The AHA (Obamacare)would actually help to fix that, by making people pay for what they will sooner or later need to have.

No one redistributes wealth like private healthcare insurance. And the first cut, right off the top, goes into the yachts and mansions of the executives. In some countries that is illegal and immoral.


But the best thing about social healthcare is that countries that have it have lower costs and better outcomes than we do. So it fits perfectly with what taxes should be used for, like you said: To pay for something that will benefit us all.

 

[digimon7068]

oh that's such bullshit...sorry Digi i like you but fuck man i am so tired of that. If there's companies hiring it's in manual labor stuff which still requires "skills". Nobody's going to hire people to run CNC or Welders who have never in their life operated such machines. For "decades" this society has been steering people to a certain skillset, and now we're paying for it. The jobs that people can do, they ain't hirin and you know that. This argument so called job creators are putting forth that nobody wants to work cause it's just soooo good to be on unemployment...you fucking kidding? C'mon digi you're smart enough to smell bullshit there. These "job crreeeters" are just trying to strongarm the govt. If they hired now, which they utterly could cause they're swimming in cash....it would prove that they could operate just fine in higher tax environments. It's pure propaganda on their part.

i know half a dozen guys at the gym that are die-setters and press-operators/programmers that have been working 70 hours per week for the last 3 years...because they are the ones that want to work...the honda and toyota testing and approval (long, drawn-out process) was finalized at the end of 2008/beginning of 2009 and orders went through the roof at the height of "unemployment"...gkn and others have tried to lure the "unemployed" back to work with bonuses, etc. to no avail...apparently blue collar workers like to sit on their ass and drink beer instead of work...who knew?? and the secondary shops (where the cnc machines are that you referred to) are just as desperate as the primary manufacturer's, if not more (since the secondary shop wages tend to be a bit lower)...it really is a sad state of affairs and i wish i was exaggerating.

 

[redsamurai]

ok so there's a shortage of skill specific laborers, right? I totally agree with you on that, what I find incredulous is the claim that people are willing to sit at home for years on end barely scraping by instead of taking up these "luxurious" offerings. Unemployment benefits are not that high that people can afford not to work. I have no doubt that alot of those guys are basically taking an extended vacation, but we're going on what, 4 years now for most of these people..?? And they're not the ones that were worst hit by the recession. The mid level office jobs got hammered just as hard if not harder. People are showing in droves at job fairs. You can't tell someone that has a white collar degree and been working in an office for 20 plus years....sorry gotta go learn how to operate heavy machinery, so sorry. It just doesn't work.

 

[digimon7068]

i know half a dozen guys at the gym that are die-setters and press-operators/programmers that have been working 70 hours per week for the last 3 years...because they are the ones that want to work...the honda and toyota testing and approval (long, drawn-out process) was finalized at the end of 2008/beginning of 2009 and orders went through the roof at the height of "unemployment"...gkn and others have tried to lure the "unemployed" back to work with bonuses, etc. to no avail...apparently blue collar workers like to sit on their ass and drink beer instead of work...who knew?? and the secondary shops (where the cnc machines are that you referred to) are just as desperate as the primary manufacturer's, if not more (since the secondary shop wages tend to be a bit lower)...it really is a sad state of affairs and i wish i was exaggerating.

oh and, this place is ugly with youpissbilloff's people, due to the marcellus shale activity and they can't get fully staffed either, in spite of the fact that they are offering labor jobs that meet or exceed six figures...it really is fucked up...you should come up here sometime and take a ride around.

 

[redsamurai]

oh and, this place is ugly with youpissbilloff's people, due to the marcellus shale activity and they can't get fully staffed either, in spite of the fact that they are offering labor jobs that meet or exceed six figures...it really is fucked up...you should come up here sometime and take a ride around.

i got family in the steel business out in PA, New Castle specifically. They seem to be doing alright, like you said cause of the shale. They got no problems with labor but of course that has always been steel country, fuck the Steelers btw, so there's a labor base in place there already.

 

[digimon7068]

ok so there's a shortage of skill specific laborers, right? I totally agree with you on that, what I find incredulous is the claim that people are willing to sit at home for years on end barely scraping by instead of taking up these "luxurious" offerings. Unemployment benefits are not that high that people can afford not to work. I have no doubt that alot of those guys are basically taking an extended vacation, but we're going on what, 4 years now for most of these people..?? And they're not the ones that were worst hit by the recession. The mid level office jobs got hammered just as hard if not harder. People are showing in droves at job fairs. You can't tell someone that has a white collar degree and been working in an office for 20 plus years....sorry gotta go learn how to operate heavy machinery, so sorry. It just doesn't work.

honest to God...these sons-a-bitches figured out how to be satisfied with less (they modified their lifestyle) and they aren't gonna go back to work until they're made to go back to work...oh and, there's a big spike in disability claims (SSDI) because some of these folks have seen the writing on the wall and they are taking measures to make sure that they don't have to go back to work...i'm telling you, it's like living in a real-life farside episode.

 

[redsamurai]

I dunno Digi, it still sounds like elitist rhetoric. I just see too many people starving for jobs. 5 years ago it was unheard of to see people around where i live holding up signs saying will work for food.