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Let's Lose This Myth Once And For All!!!

Nelson Montana

Nelson Montana

Chairman of Board
Chairman Member
I think on a site that has so many knowledgeable people and where others come for advice, it isn't too much to ask that certain information be accurate.

There are lots of issues where people will disagree, but facts are facts. And this one is the most commonly promulgated.


STEROIDS DO NOT TAKE WEEKS TO "KICK IN"!!!


That is not an opinion. It is not debatable. A fact is fact and this one is for sure. It is provabale. It is indisputable.

Blood levels of testosterone will be increased within hours of injection. You are then in an anabolically enhanced environment. Start making good use of it! Nitrogen retention has begun.

It's at the point where I get the feeling guys don't even train hard for the first few weeks because "the gear hasn't kicked in yet." What a waste. And it's all because of a notion which has been repeated so many times it's become regarded as truth. It isn't .

Of course, you may not see results for a while, but that doesn't mean the stuff isn't working. Personally, I always felt it after a few days.

If test is active for appox 10 days until the half life is essentially inert, what do you think happens to the first shot you take? Does anyone think it doesn't work because it knows you'll be doing other shots for the next 12 weeks? That's ridiculous! What is the reasoning here? I can't blame them though. That's what they've heard and that's what they believed and that's what they've passed on. It's time to let it go though.

Steroids do not "build up" in the system. They come and go. At week one you can have a T level of 2000ngs and at week 6 you can have a T level of 2000ngs. So why do you think week 6 is more productive? If anything, it's LESS productive because your natural T will be lower and your receptors will have downgraded more.

Sure, some guys will swear it doesn't "hit" them for a while. But it's a mistaken perception. Blood tests don't lie.

Prop acts a little faster (actually it's instant) but it's more a matter of being a short acting ester. That doesn't mean it necessarily works quicker, it just doesn't last as long. That has certain advantages, but not one that is applicable to long term use. Oh sure, guys will say how they got great gains form prop. No shit. EVERYTHING works. But there's a mechanism in which it works and isn't necessarily the way one may THINK it works.

The gains you make in week 2 will be the same gains you make in week 8 -- but of course, you've ammassed more gains over time. Get it? That doesn't mean they only came at the end. They've been building up for weeks!

This misinfomation is akin to a site about medicine debating the merits of voodoo. Enough already.

I don't want to make this a debate over short cycles vs long. Short cycles work if implimented correctly but they may not yield the results some people desire. Some guys need more time to build the muscle they want. That's fine. But it isn't because the gear hasn't kicked in for them. IT'S IN!

Now get to work.
 
ive alaways said that

newbies equate kicking in = gains

i feel my nips burn on enanthate 5-6 days in first shot !!!!!!!
 
You should stick to talking about training. At least there you have some understanding. Steroids do start working right away. HOWEVER, many of the effects of steroids are not apparent until weeks of high level exposure. Also with esterified steroids to reach even peak plasma levels of the drug can take weeks. And the amount of testosterone in your blood in week 1 with enanthate is much lower than the amount of enathate in your blood in week 6.
 
This may be true, but when people refer to "kicking in" they are referring to when you actually feel it and see it working.
It has nothing to do w/ how hard you're training, training harder will not make you feel it sooner.
Some may half ass training while they are waiting for it to "kick in", but once again that is a generalization on your part.
 
steroid is a broad term.. before you slam someone for amking a comment that generally does apply across the board, you may want to consider if it applies to most or just a couple u happen to have stuck in your mind
 
i dont think it's a myth but more of a misunderstanding on the term kicking in...i think when someone says it takes 3 weeks for something to kick in it really means it takes 3 weeks to see noticeable visual gains or to be able to tell visually that it is working
 
Nelson Montana said:
I think on a site that has so many knowledgeable people and where others come for advice, it isn't too much to ask that certain information be accurate.

There are lots of issues where people will disagree, but facts are facts. And this one is the most commonly promulgated.


STEROIDS DO NOT TAKE WEEKS TO "KICK IN"!!!


That is not an opinion. It is not debatable. A fact is fact and this one is for sure. It is provabale. It is indisputable.

Blood levels of testosterone will be increased within hours of injection. You are then in an anabolically enhanced environment. Start making good use of it! Nitrogen retention has begun.

It's at the point where I get the feeling guys don't even train hard for the first few weeks because "the gear hasn't kicked in yet." What a waste. And it's all because of a notion which has been repeated so many times it's become regarded as truth. It isn't .

Of course, you may not see results for a while, but that doesn't mean the stuff isn't working. Personally, I always felt it after a few days.

If test is active for appox 10 days until the half life is essentially inert, what do you think happens to the first shot you take? Does anyone think it doesn't work because it knows you'll be doing other shots for the next 12 weeks? That's ridiculous! What is the reasoning here? I can't blame them though. That's what they've heard and that's what they believed and that's what they've passed on. It's time to let it go though.

Steroids do not "build up" in the system. They come and go. At week one you can have a T level of 2000ngs and at week 6 you can have a T level of 2000ngs. So why do you think week 6 is more productive? If anything, it's LESS productive because your natural T will be lower and your receptors will have downgraded more.

Sure, some guys will swear it doesn't "hit" them for a while. But it's a mistaken perception. Blood tests don't lie.

Prop acts a little faster (actually it's instant) but it's more a matter of being a short acting ester. That doesn't mean it necessarily works quicker, it just doesn't last as long. That has certain advantages, but not one that is applicable to long term use. Oh sure, guys will say how they got great gains form prop. No shit. EVERYTHING works. But there's a mechanism in which it works and isn't necessarily the way one may THINK it works.

The gains you make in week 2 will be the same gains you make in week 8 -- but of course, you've ammassed more gains over time. Get it? That doesn't mean they only came at the end. They've been building up for weeks!

This misinfomation is akin to a site about medicine debating the merits of voodoo. Enough already.

I don't want to make this a debate over short cycles vs long. Short cycles work if implimented correctly but they may not yield the results some people desire. Some guys need more time to build the muscle they want. That's fine. But it isn't because the gear hasn't kicked in for them. IT'S IN!

Now get to work.
Click to expand...

I agree with almost everything and good post, however, there is a cumulative affect know as "effective or active dose" based on the half-life of the medication. If one s injecting several times a week there is an overlap and "active dose" can be higher at times, especially with longer acting esters.

Nice job man!
:p
 
MTS said:
i dont think it's a myth but more of a misunderstanding on the term kicking in...i think when someone says it takes 3 weeks for something to kick in it really means it takes 3 weeks to see noticeable visual gains or to be able to tell visually that it is working
Click to expand...


I don't dispute what Nelson is saying... what I personally mean when saying "kicking in" is when I actually start to FEEL it coursing through me... when I feel the increase in strength and energy and libido.
 
well then if we are talking about FEELING strength then, how long does it take for you to feel winny strength nj? hmm?

pretty quickly right?
 
worldclass said:
You should stick to talking about training. At least there you have some understanding. Steroids do start working right away. HOWEVER, many of the effects of steroids are not apparent until weeks of high level exposure. Also with esterified steroids to reach even peak plasma levels of the drug can take weeks. And the amount of testosterone in your blood in week 1 with enanthate is much lower than the amount of enathate in your blood in week 6.
Click to expand...


You should stick to not commenting on what you don't understand.

Why are you being confrontational when you're essentially agreeing with me?

On week two you will have more T in you because the shot from week one will still be in you. But by week 6, the shot from 5 weeks ago will be gone.
 
floridalife said:
well then if we are talking about FEELING strength then, how long does it take for you to feel winny strength nj? hmm?

pretty quickly right?
Click to expand...

can't answer that, I've never done winny....

as for "feeling" AAS, I definitely do "feel" it... kinda like a caffiene rush or buzz... that starts happening anywhere from 4-6 weeks into the cycle (with test enth that is)... with prop, usually by 2nd or 3rd week... not sure why it takes that long.

the weird thing about feeling strength, the one time I feel considerable strength from the cycle is right at the end of it, and for 1-2 weeks after... very strange, but it happens to me every time.
 
one time i accidentally drew up too much suspension and i figured it probably wouldnt be that bad so i injected in ne wayz. 75-100 mg i think. yeah i felt it when i was lifting. never felt like that before. what a rush. i would have put it back in the vial but i had something else in the syringe. tren i think.
 
mr.nitro said:
oh ya, seconds after I take my shot of testosterone enthanate my lifts improve, and my muscles get bigger.
Click to expand...

Hey, my squat went up 50 pounds after the first week of my first cycle. This is not unusual for guys who've been long time nattys.

Again, it's true that there's some accumlative effect, but still, you're more "anabolic" on day two than you were beforehand. To a guy who'd fought for every ounce of muscle, that's a tremendous advantage. It's a shame that it's so often wasted.
 
he is talking about active life and half life
every chemical substance has one to my understanding

this is one of the reasons i prefer shorter burst cycles. the stuff is working in you quickly, the body intitiates countermeasures(mainly estrogen and cortisol) after 2-3 weeks of constant exposure
get in quick, hit it hard, and get out
 
MTS said:
i dont think it's a myth but more of a misunderstanding on the term kicking in...i think when someone says it takes 3 weeks for something to kick in it really means it takes 3 weeks to see noticeable visual gains or to be able to tell visually that it is working
Click to expand...

:supercool
 
obviously something is happening the very second you finish injecting, but to have a 50lb strenth increace the first wek sounds like the placibo effect to me.

I would never wait for it to kick in to train hard, I train hard no mater what, but I have never ever seen results that fast. maybe an extra rep, but I can get that from just being in the zone, so to speak.
 
The anabolic environment from testosterone and other anabolics is, in several recent articles, felt to be due to the migration and activation of satellite cells, leading to their fusion and donation of nuclei.[Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2004 May;7(3):271-7. Review; J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci. 2003 Dec;58(12):M1103-10. Review; Endocrinology. 2003 Nov;144(11):5081-8. Epub 2003 Jul 24] The activation of the satellite cells is thought to occur by second messenger systems such as inositol triphosphatase, which can take about 2 weeks to activate. Immediate blood levels do not correlate to immediate activity. This phenomenon is seen frequently in pharmaceutics. For example, brain levels of serotonin 1/2 hour after taking an antidepressant are sky high (from reuptake inhibition at the receptor), but it takes weeks for the second messenger system that actually has the desired effect to work. In short, most graduate scientists studying anabolics will disagree with you, as you seem to be unaware of the work done on second messenger cascades. Nevertheless, you brought forth a good question, one that certainly requires more research. As for the individual reporting feeling suspension, that is because the "high" aspects of steroids can be activated very quickly, more so than the biochemical effects, especially with suspension forms. But the amount of mass put on the first week with any anabolic, even with suspension, is pretty negligible. And pps, speaking of recycling myths, down-regulation of androgen receptors does not occur with treatment as you stated in your original post, but rather clear up-regulation has been shown repeatedly [J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Oct;89(10):5245-55] It is, in fact, the same second messenger cascades being worn and maximized that results in anabolics' diminishing returns over time.
Lastly, it could be dangerous and criminally negligent to pass yourself off as an authority on FDA approved medications when you are not a pharmacist, MD or other health practicioner. And perhaps doing so for financial gain and self-aggrandizement, while risking hurting someone greatly, should be cause for moral concern.
 
majutsu said:
The anabolic environment from testosterone and other anabolics is, in several recent articles, felt to be due to the migration and activation of satellite cells, leading to their fusion and donation of nuclei.[Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2004 May;7(3):271-7. Review; J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci. 2003 Dec;58(12):M1103-10. Review; Endocrinology. 2003 Nov;144(11):5081-8. Epub 2003 Jul 24] The activation of the satellite cells is thought to occur by second messenger systems such as inositol triphosphatase, which can take about 2 weeks to activate. Immediate blood levels do not correlate to immediate activity. This phenomenon is seen frequently in pharmaceutics. For example, brain levels of serotonin 1/2 hour after taking an antidepressant are sky high (from reuptake inhibition at the receptor), but it takes weeks for the second messenger system that actually has the desired effect to work. In short, most graduate scientists studying anabolics will disagree with you, as you seem to be unaware of the work done on second messenger cascades. Nevertheless, you brought forth a good question, one that certainly requires more research. As for the individual reporting feeling suspension, that is because the "high" aspects of steroids can be activated very quickly, more so than the biochemical effects, especially with suspension forms. But the amount of mass put on the first week with any anabolic, even with suspension, is pretty negligible. And pps, speaking of recycling myths, down-regulation of androgen receptors does not occur with treatment as you stated in your original post, but rather clear up-regulation has been shown repeatedly [J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Oct;89(10):5245-55] It is, in fact, the same second messenger cascades being worn and maximized that results in anabolics' diminishing returns over time.
Lastly, it could be dangerous and criminally negligent to pass yourself off as an authority on FDA approved medications when you are not a pharmacist, MD or other health practicioner. And perhaps doing so for financial gain and self-aggrandizement, while risking hurting someone greatly, should be cause for moral concern.
Click to expand...
I thought this post really added to the thread till I got to the last part and so that it was just another bash....o well better luck next time.
 
Actually the answer is Yes. Yes, AAS start their effect immediately. However, it DOES take two-three weeks for you oil-bases to kick in. A basic chemistry lesson: AAS increase protein synthesis on a molecular level. Before the synthesis of a protein begins, the Amino Acids for the corresponding muscle protein "recipe" must be made. This is done through a process called transcription. The RNA molecule is produced and then this code is multiplied several times over. It is this process which is sped up by AAS. The next thing to occur is called RNA translation. This is where the "muscle code" is sent out to the manufacturer "the liver, etc." who then calls in the nutrients in the bloodstream into the cell so the muscle can be made. That was a super short lesson in something that would take 4-5 years of study. I will be happy to explain it in more detail if desired.
 
majutsu said:
The anabolic environment from testosterone and other anabolics is, in several recent articles, felt to be due to the migration and activation of satellite cells, leading to their fusion and donation of nuclei.[Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2004 May;7(3):271-7. Review; J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci. 2003 Dec;58(12):M1103-10. Review; Endocrinology. 2003 Nov;144(11):5081-8. Epub 2003 Jul 24] The activation of the satellite cells is thought to occur by second messenger systems such as inositol triphosphatase, which can take about 2 weeks to activate.
..........................................................

"Which CAN..." AND EVEN THEN, IT'S ONLY TWO WEEKS. MEANWHILE, T LEVELS ARE ELEVATED AND NITROGEN IS BEING RECIRCULATED.


...............................................................


Immediate blood levels do not correlate to immediate activity.

.................................................


Hmm, THIS IS ARGUABALE. BUT, AT ANY RATE, I NEVER SAID IMMEDIATE.


.........................................................

This phenomenon is seen frequently in pharmaceutics. For example, brain levels of serotonin 1/2 hour after taking an antidepressant are sky high (from reuptake inhibition at the receptor), but it takes weeks for the second messenger system that actually has the desired effect to work.

...............................................................

A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MECHANISM. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT BRAIN CHEMESTRY NOW AND THE CHANGES THAT TAKE PLACE. THAT'S A FAR CRY OF ANABOLISM.



...................................................................


In short, most graduate scientists studying anabolics will disagree with you, as you seem to be unaware of the work done on second messenger cascades. Nevertheless, you brought forth a good question, one that certainly requires more research.


.................................................


SO WHICH IS IT?


.....................................................
As for the individual reporting feeling suspension, that is because the "high" aspects of steroids can be activated very quickly, more so than the biochemical effects, especially with suspension forms. But the amount of mass put on the first week with any anabolic, even with suspension, is pretty negligible.
........................................................

AGAIN, IT'S THE SECOND OR THIRD WEEK WHERE THE BEST GAINS COULD BE MADE. AND THEY WOULD BE AT LEAST AS GOOD AS THE GAINS MADE IN WEEK 12. IF YOU PUT ON 4 POUNDS A WEEK , THAT'S NEGLIGABLE, BUT OVER TIME, IT'S QUITE A BIT.

...........................................................

And pps, speaking of recycling myths, down-regulation of androgen receptors does not occur with treatment as you stated in your original post, but rather clear up-regulation has been shown repeatedly [J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Oct;89(10):5245-55] It is, in fact, the same second messenger cascades being worn and maximized that results in anabolics' diminishing returns over time.

......................................................

SIX OF ONE -- HALF A DOZEN OF THE OTHER. THE BODY PRODUCES A TOLERANCE TO ANY EXOGENOUS SUBSTANCE.


...........................................................

Lastly, it could be dangerous and criminally negligent to pass yourself off as an authority on FDA approved medications when you are not a pharmacist, MD or other health practicioner. And perhaps doing so for financial gain and self-aggrandizement, while risking hurting someone greatly, should be cause for moral concern.
........................................................................

OH, YOU MEAN LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE ON THIS BOARD?!?!?!

GIVE ME A BREAK!

CRIMINAL? FIRST OF ALL I NEVER SAID I WAS A PHARACIST OR ANY SUCH THING. BUT I KNOW SOME THINGS AND YOU CAN ASK MOST ANY EXPERT IN PHARMACOLOGY AND THEY'LL AGREE WITH WITH MY INITIAL STATEMENT. (PERHAPS WITH AOME ADDENDUMS, BUT BASICALLY AGREE. AND REMEMBER, MUSCLE GROWTH THROUGH THE USE OF ANABOLICS IS NOT HIGH ON THE LIST OF MEDICAL STUDIES).

AND ONE MORE THING. I THINK I'VE PROBABLY DONE MORE TO DISUADE THE MISUSE OF EXCESSIVE DRUG USE AND TO PROMOTE A HEALTHY LIFESTYLE THAN MAYBE ANY BODY ELSE ON THIS BOARD. SO DON'T PULL THE PIOTY CARD ON ME BRO. THIS POST DOES NOTHING TO PROMOTE MY PERSONAL GAIN NOR DOES IT PUT ANYONE AT RISK. IF ANYTHING IT PROMOTES A MORE RESPONSIBLE APROACH. SO YOU CAN TAKE YOUR "MORAL CONCERN" AND KEEP IT TO YOURSELF.
Click to expand...

..
 
All I can say Nelson, is you must really enjoy all of this. You had to have known you were going to start something with that post. Oh well, it's your thread. You are right about active timing. The ester really has no bearing on the time it takes to activate, it is how long it takes to clear that is dictated by the ester attached. Have fun, man.
 
Nelson Montana said:
You should stick to not commenting on what you don't understand.

Why are you being confrontational when you're essentially agreeing with me?

On week two you will have more T in you because the shot from week one will still be in you. But by week 6, the shot from 5 weeks ago will be gone.
Click to expand...
No, the shots will not be all gone from 5 weeks ago. None of this takes into account that blood levels of test are meaningless in this context. In the first weeks of an estered test your body hasn't had time to respond to the test. It hasn't had time to make the increase in protein synthesis amount to anything. If your body built mass as quickly as you injected high blood levels you would only need a 3 day cycle of suspension. The steroids DO build up and so does the response from them. It's a cascading effect that needs time to build up and take place. You will NOT have the same effect in week 2 as week 8. That's ridiculous.
 
needtogetaas said:
I thought this post really added to the thread till I got to the last part and so that it was just another bash....o well better luck next time.
Click to expand...
I enjoyed it.
 
Mac173 said:
I enjoyed it.
Click to expand...
lol I know you did.I see you in every sponsor,advertiser thread there is bashing it up just for fun.....some times I think you do it more for shits and giggles then any thing else lol
 
needtogetaas said:
lol I know you did.I see you in every sponsor,advertiser thread there is bashing it up just for fun.....some times I think you do it more for shits and giggles then any thing else lol
Click to expand...

I've never bashed derma.
 
needtogetaas said:
cant say that I have seen you bashing.but I see you up in all the threads. :evil:
watching,lurking,having fun.....your a good bro.
Click to expand...
I try not to instigate, but when I see certain people saying things like "no one ever built a muscular physique with a good diet" then you're just asking for trouble.
 
todoveritas said:
Actually the answer is Yes. Yes, AAS start their effect immediately. However, it DOES take two-three weeks for you oil-bases to kick in. A basic chemistry lesson: AAS increase protein synthesis on a molecular level. Before the synthesis of a protein begins, the Amino Acids for the corresponding muscle protein "recipe" must be made. This is done through a process called transcription. The RNA molecule is produced and then this code is multiplied several times over. It is this process which is sped up by AAS. The next thing to occur is called RNA translation. This is where the "muscle code" is sent out to the manufacturer "the liver, etc." who then calls in the nutrients in the bloodstream into the cell so the muscle can be made. That was a super short lesson in something that would take 4-5 years of study. I will be happy to explain it in more detail if desired.
Click to expand...

Well said
 
I agree with Nelson that as soon as you injest AAS that it increases your T blood levels. For me though, and I am training hard the whole time, I never feel it "Kick In" until weeks 3-4. Everyone reacts differently, some 2 day and some 1 month.
 
worldclass said:
No, the shots will not be all gone from 5 weeks ago. None of this takes into account that blood levels of test are meaningless in this context. In the first weeks of an estered test your body hasn't had time to respond to the test. It hasn't had time to make the increase in protein synthesis amount to anything. If your body built mass as quickly as you injected high blood levels you would only need a 3 day cycle of suspension. The steroids DO build up and so does the response from them. It's a cascading effect that needs time to build up and take place. You will NOT have the same effect in week 2 as week 8. That's ridiculous.
Click to expand...



Faulty reasoning. Muscle needs time to accumulate. That is sepearte from the effectiveness of the steroid.

There comes a point where the half life is inconsequential. If the half lives continued ad infitum, then guys on HRT, who never go off, would start amassing amazing gains after 6 months or so because they've had all that accumulation. It doesn't work that way.


MAC 173 once again shows his disregard for the facts and his eagerness to argue before accessing the facts. I never said what you claim. You're taking it out of context just to be annoying. The point of THAT remark was that "No one ever built a great body SOLELY from eating well."

Apparently everyone got it but you. Or maybe you didn't want to.

Which proves one of two things. You're either just looking for troube. Or you're just dumb. Which is it?
 
Nelson Montana said:
Faulty reasoning. Muscle needs time to accumulate. That is sepearte from the effectiveness of the steroid.

There comes a point where the half life is inconsequential. If the half lives continued ad infitum, then guys on HRT, who never go off, would start amassing amazing gains after 6 months or so because they've had all that accumulation. It doesn't work that way.


MAC 173 once again shows his disregard for the facts and his eagerness to argue before accessing the facts. I never said what you claim. You're taking it out of context just to be annoying. The point of THAT remark was that "No one ever built a great body SOLELY from eating well."

Apparently everyone got it but you. Or maybe you didn't want to.

Which proves one of two things. You're either just looking for troube. Or you're just dumb. Which is it?
Click to expand...
What your point was and what you said are two differant things.
Say what you mean, don't make rediculous statements like that and expect people to think, "well he probably means something differant". That's foolish, I would assume that you wouldn't disregard diet but don't post in such a way that makes it sound like you do.
 
I don't dispute what Nelson is saying... what I personally mean when saying "kicking in" is when I actually start to FEEL it coursing through me... when I feel the increase in strength and energy and libido.
Click to expand...


NELSON MONTANA WOULD YOU FUCKING GROW UP
OR SHUT THE FUCK UP,
YOU ARE REALLY STARTING TO PISS PEOPLE OFF.

FOR THE LOVE OF CHRIST.




Kicking in for most people is not a technical issue, and it is of course
VERY Debatable, Very much an opinion, and very, very disputable.


Are you tying to say I FEEL deca at the exact same time as someone else does?
Maybe some one 35 years younger than me, who is on gear for the first time.

Again your statement is inane, as always

Why do you have to lean in to a punch on every fricken tread, Why do you have to be the all knowing expert, the only authority? Hasn’t that bothered you before, it would bother normal people.


That is not an opinion. It is not debatable. A fact is fact and this one is for sure. It is provable. It is indisputable.----Why ----because nelson montanta say so, that’s why,
Click to expand...


A fact is a fact, give me a break, global warming will kill us all- All gore,

It is indisputable, gear does not take weeks to kick in—nelson Montana,



Er except, ah, well, I don’t know because ah I don’t use gear, but I wonder about Test E, Test C, Deca and EQ, do they kick in well as fast as d-bol, well er, I don’t know, because, well I don’t know, I am nelson montanta just buy my books.
Click to expand...

Has nothing to do with the guys on gear but it is nelson’s opinion again, nothing more just his opinion.


Why again is it SO IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO BE THE AUTHORITY!!!!


In the past the information that most of received and learned from was not crammed down our throats as the only way, because “I” am an expert, but by guys that tried and experimented with gear and it worked for them.

You are not going to gain respect by demanding it, criticizing everyone who does not agree with you, and constant stating the obvious in esoteric terms.


And pissing everyone off.
 
solidspine said:
NELSON MONTANA WOULD YOU FUCKING GROW UP
OR SHUT THE FUCK UP,
YOU ARE REALLY STARTING TO PISS PEOPLE OFF.

FOR THE LOVE OF CHRIST.




Kicking in for most people is not a technical issue, and it is of course
VERY Debatable, Very much an opinion, and very, very disputable.


Are you tying to say I FEEL deca at the exact same time as someone else does?
Maybe some one 35 years younger than me, who is on gear for the first time.

Again your statement is inane, as always

Why do you have to lean in to a punch on every fricken tread, Why do you have to be the all knowing expert, the only authority? Hasn’t that bothered you before, it would bother normal people.





A fact is a fact, give me a break, global warming will kill us all- All gore,

It is indisputable, gear does not take weeks to kick in—nelson Montana,





Has nothing to do with the guys on gear but it is nelson’s opinion again, nothing more just his opinion.


Why again is it SO IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO BE THE AUTHORITY!!!!


In the past the information that most of received and learned from was not crammed down our throats as the only way, because “I” am an expert, but by guys that tried and experimented with gear and it worked for them.

You are not going to gain respect by demanding it, criticizing everyone who does not agree with you, and constant stating the obvious in esoteric terms.


And pissing everyone off.
Click to expand...

I can see this thread is going to get hot quick.
Time for me to lean back in the recliner and get the popcorn.
 
solidspine said:
NELSON MONTANA WOULD YOU FUCKING GROW UP
OR SHUT THE FUCK UP,
YOU ARE REALLY STARTING TO PISS PEOPLE OFF.

FOR THE LOVE OF CHRIST.




Kicking in for most people is not a technical issue, and it is of course
VERY Debatable, Very much an opinion, and very, very disputable.


Are you tying to say I FEEL deca at the exact same time as someone else does?
Maybe some one 35 years younger than me, who is on gear for the first time.

Again your statement is inane, as always

Why do you have to lean in to a punch on every fricken tread, Why do you have to be the all knowing expert, the only authority? Hasn’t that bothered you before, it would bother normal people.





A fact is a fact, give me a break, global warming will kill us all- All gore,

It is indisputable, gear does not take weeks to kick in—nelson Montana,





Has nothing to do with the guys on gear but it is nelson’s opinion again, nothing more just his opinion.


Why again is it SO IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO BE THE AUTHORITY!!!!


In the past the information that most of received and learned from was not crammed down our throats as the only way, because “I” am an expert, but by guys that tried and experimented with gear and it worked for them.

You are not going to gain respect by demanding it, criticizing everyone who does not agree with you, and constant stating the obvious in esoteric terms.


And pissing everyone off.
Click to expand...

Well, now you're just ranting like an idiot.

I am doing nor saying none of the things you claim and the only people I seem to be pissing off is you and MAC. Which in a way, is kind of a compliment.
 
I was not ranting simply and obviously disagreeing with your statement of “fact”s simply because you say they are facts.
You are a very frustrating person to try and communicate with,


Have a wonderful life, I hope you win a Pulitzer Prize for fiction









Oh yes it is your turn now to say something witty,

I know you like to have the last word on these significant issues of myths vrs facts
 
Nelson Montana said:
I think on a site that has so many knowledgeable people and where others come for advice, it isn't too much to ask that certain information be accurate.

There are lots of issues where people will disagree, but facts are facts. And this one is the most commonly promulgated.


STEROIDS DO NOT TAKE WEEKS TO "KICK IN"!!!


That is not an opinion. It is not debatable. A fact is fact and this one is for sure. It is provabale. It is indisputable.

Blood levels of testosterone will be increased within hours of injection. You are then in an anabolically enhanced environment. Start making good use of it! Nitrogen retention has begun.

It's at the point where I get the feeling guys don't even train hard for the first few weeks because "the gear hasn't kicked in yet." What a waste. And it's all because of a notion which has been repeated so many times it's become regarded as truth. It isn't .

Of course, you may not see results for a while, but that doesn't mean the stuff isn't working. Personally, I always felt it after a few days.

If test is active for appox 10 days until the half life is essentially inert, what do you think happens to the first shot you take? Does anyone think it doesn't work because it knows you'll be doing other shots for the next 12 weeks? That's ridiculous! What is the reasoning here? I can't blame them though. That's what they've heard and that's what they believed and that's what they've passed on. It's time to let it go though.

Steroids do not "build up" in the system. They come and go. At week one you can have a T level of 2000ngs and at week 6 you can have a T level of 2000ngs. So why do you think week 6 is more productive? If anything, it's LESS productive because your natural T will be lower and your receptors will have downgraded more.

Sure, some guys will swear it doesn't "hit" them for a while. But it's a mistaken perception. Blood tests don't lie.

Prop acts a little faster (actually it's instant) but it's more a matter of being a short acting ester. That doesn't mean it necessarily works quicker, it just doesn't last as long. That has certain advantages, but not one that is applicable to long term use. Oh sure, guys will say how they got great gains form prop. No shit. EVERYTHING works. But there's a mechanism in which it works and isn't necessarily the way one may THINK it works.

The gains you make in week 2 will be the same gains you make in week 8 -- but of course, you've ammassed more gains over time. Get it? That doesn't mean they only came at the end. They've been building up for weeks!

This misinfomation is akin to a site about medicine debating the merits of voodoo. Enough already.

I don't want to make this a debate over short cycles vs long. Short cycles work if implimented correctly but they may not yield the results some people desire. Some guys need more time to build the muscle they want. That's fine. But it isn't because the gear hasn't kicked in for them. IT'S IN!

Now get to work.
Click to expand...


so your saying with a half life of 10 days that enanthate will be as strong week 1 as week 6? Doesn't add up. Possibly after 20 days it will maintain the same strength. Maybe I'm remedial but I know how to add stubtract multiply and divide.
 
cboogsrun said:
so your saying with a half life of 10 days that enanthate will be as strong week 1 as week 6? Doesn't add up. Possibly after 20 days it will maintain the same strength. Maybe I'm remedial but I know how to add stubtract multiply and divide.
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I'm NOT saying.
 
solidspine said:
I was not ranting simply and obviously disagreeing with your statement of “fact”s simply because you say they are facts.

..............................................................

NO. FACTS ARE FACTS WHEN THEY CAN BE PROVEN. HAVE BLOOD DRAWN 24 HOURS AFTER YOU TAKE AN INJECTION OF TESTOSTERONE. IF YOUR T ISN'T ELEVATED I'LL GIVE TO TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS. HENCE -- IT DOES NOT TAKE 6 WEEKS TO KICK IN. IT'S CALLED PROOF BRO.


................................................


You are a very frustrating person to try and communicate with,

................................................

I CAN IMAGINE -- FOR YOU. YOU'RE TRYING TO MAKE A POINT WITH NO LOGIC. THAT MUST BE FRUSTRATING.


..........................................................


Have a wonderful life, I hope you win a Pulitzer Prize for fiction

...........................................................

DOES THIS MEAN YOU'LL STOP YOUR POINTLESS POSTS?




..............................................................



Oh yes it is your turn now to say something witty,

I know you like to have the last word on these significant issues of myths vrs facts
.........................................................................

SOMETIMES.

...
Click to expand...

..
 
rg78 said:
Nelson not sure if i read your thread correctly but does'nt this graph contradict what your are saying about T levels?

http://www.elitefitness.com/reports/steroidcycles/
Click to expand...

Not sure how. Sus is an interesting drug and he uses that for an example. Remember, it has prop (gone in 4 days) and decanoate which is a little longer lasting than cyp or enth. (But not enough to be a big deal).

I haven't read Dino's book but it looks interesting.
 
Nelson Montana said:
I think on a site that has so many knowledgeable people and where others come for advice, it isn't too much to ask that certain information be accurate.

There are lots of issues where people will disagree, but facts are facts. And this one is the most commonly promulgated.


STEROIDS DO NOT TAKE WEEKS TO "KICK IN"!!!


That is not an opinion. It is not debatable. A fact is fact and this one is for sure. It is provabale. It is indisputable.

Blood levels of testosterone will be increased within hours of injection. You are then in an anabolically enhanced environment. Start making good use of it! Nitrogen retention has begun.
Click to expand...

I have to disagree with you bro, from a scientific standpoint.

The crux of the debate is not what your blood levels are or even the "stability of them", infact, there is research taht shows varying troughs and peaks in dosing can have an anabolic effect itself and help provent HPG shutdown (hypothal-pit-gonadal).

The way that androgens work is poorly understood from a molecular biological standpoint. Several other factors, namely GH, IGF-1, IGF-2 (now more data backing this up), as well as the downregulation of SHBG (steroid hormone binding globulin) in the serum increase, increase and decrease respectiuvely over the course of many weeks. Keep in mind that physiologic androgens are 99% bound in the serum by albumin and SHBG. Downregulating these has a massive impact, but takes a while.

Also the adaptive musculature response takes a while to kick in. Androgen are, above all, transcription factors (ligands to nuclear receptors), or antagonize pathways that are repressors of androgen receptor mediated activation (Cortisol, for example), and gene activation, transcription, translation forming SECONDARY tx factors or repressor/corepressor complexes can take a week if not more to fully form.

The serum [] of seroids is not equivalent to response, there are a plethora of poorly understood physiologic adaptations that have to take place over a time period before you really "get going". I don't think this is explainable by people not training hard enough or "not feeling it" in the first two weeks because of their diet/training. I think it is a valid report of people who have experienced this time and again, and coming from someone in medicine, should not be dismissed or overlooked.

NFG


It's at the point where I get the feeling guys don't even train hard for the first few weeks because "the gear hasn't kicked in yet." What a waste. And it's all because of a notion which has been repeated so many times it's become regarded as truth. It isn't .

Of course, you may not see results for a while, but that doesn't mean the stuff isn't working. Personally, I always felt it after a few days.

If test is active for appox 10 days until the half life is essentially inert, what do you think happens to the first shot you take? Does anyone think it doesn't work because it knows you'll be doing other shots for the next 12 weeks? That's ridiculous! What is the reasoning here? I can't blame them though. That's what they've heard and that's what they believed and that's what they've passed on. It's time to let it go though.

Steroids do not "build up" in the system. They come and go. At week one you can have a T level of 2000ngs and at week 6 you can have a T level of 2000ngs. So why do you think week 6 is more productive? If anything, it's LESS productive because your natural T will be lower and your receptors will have downgraded more.

Sure, some guys will swear it doesn't "hit" them for a while. But it's a mistaken perception. Blood tests don't lie.

Prop acts a little faster (actually it's instant) but it's more a matter of being a short acting ester. That doesn't mean it necessarily works quicker, it just doesn't last as long. That has certain advantages, but not one that is applicable to long term use. Oh sure, guys will say how they got great gains form prop. No shit. EVERYTHING works. But there's a mechanism in which it works and isn't necessarily the way one may THINK it works.

The gains you make in week 2 will be the same gains you make in week 8 -- but of course, you've ammassed more gains over time. Get it? That doesn't mean they only came at the end. They've been building up for weeks!

This misinfomation is akin to a site about medicine debating the merits of voodoo. Enough already.

I don't want to make this a debate over short cycles vs long. Short cycles work if implimented correctly but they may not yield the results some people desire. Some guys need more time to build the muscle they want. That's fine. But it isn't because the gear hasn't kicked in for them. IT'S IN!

Now get to work.[/QUOTE]
 
NFG123reborn said:
I don't necessarily disagree with you. I'm just not sure how it changes anything. The process you describe can happen at any time. You can be in week 16 and be at "a low point." So, sure, it make take some time before you "catch a nice anabolic wave" but that doesn't change the fact that you may have that pretty quickly as well.

Good post.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
I just realized you don't understand the first thing about how steroids work do you? How they change the gene activity to increase protein synthesis? How long that takes? That a half-life and an elimination rate are not the same. That esters like Enanthate compound and create higher and higher blood levels from week one to week 4. The more I read the more I understand you. If I may borrow, you lack even basic understanding of pharmacology and drug pharmacokinetics. When it comes to metabolic impacts and modifications induced by AAS you're at a complete loss.
No wonder people yell at you.
 
When self-proclaimed experts with absolutely no background in science start talking like they know everything you get Nelson Morontana.
 
I just realized you don't understand the first thing about how steroids work do you? How they change the gene activity to increase protein synthesis? How long that takes? That a half-life and an elimination rate are not the same. That esters like Enanthate compound and create higher and higher blood levels from week one to week 4. The more I read the more I understand you. If I may borrow, you lack even basic understanding of pharmacology and drug pharmacokinetics. When it comes to metabolic impacts and modifications induced by AAS you're at a complete loss.
No wonder people yell at you.
Click to expand...


People yell at him because he does not know how to communicate and takes offense if you challenge his stated “expert opinion” and seems to be wrong most of the time, even on petty issue like this one, and he started the thread.

Fortunately I have never seen Nelson Montana speak about anything of any importance to body building, or if it is important he simply states the obvious, as if he were the first person to conclude a position.

Unfortunately his platitudes as his opening remarks of this tread, besides being incorrect are simply insulting to many of us, who unlike him, are in fact body builders and appreciate informative, useful information.

Hypothetical knowledge can be useful, but it is still assumptive and certainly not practical, just because he has seen some one or interviewed someone, so what,

It basically is irrelevant, especially when it is half correct and entirely self congratulatory

No one cares for a boastful, braggart, who can not help on this forum,
 
cboogsrun said:
so your saying with a half life of 10 days that enanthate will be as strong week 1 as week 6? Doesn't add up. Possibly after 20 days it will maintain the same strength. Maybe I'm remedial but I know how to add stubtract multiply and divide.
Click to expand...
You'll have to bear w/ him. He has trouble communicating his thoughs into writing.
They seem to constantly contradict themselves.
Just wait around and he'll get to it.
And NM, me and SS are the only people you are pissing off around here?
Doesn't look that way to me.
 
worldclass: Have you got a point to make besides criticism about nothing?

nisser: I am not self proclaimed since I have credentials. What are yours? I also am not admittedly an expert in science. Never said I was, so you're wrong there too. This is a seperate issue. You don't need to be an expert in nautical engeneering to know if you have a hole in your boat.

Solidspine: You know nothing of my work, nor do you offer any contrarian theories of your own. You just complain. It's almost as if you resent having to think beyond your narrow framework. Of course, you will always find someone with an equally narrow point of view to agree with you. I guess it makes you all feel bigger if you stick together.

I welcome other perspectives. And I stand by my statements because they are correct. I have yet to hear any evididence to the contrary, though there have been some adendums that have been insightful. But not from any of you. I have, however, heard a lot of whining about a thread none of you can seem to stop paying attention to.


I
 
Everybody knows all about your work, that’s all you do is talk about how wonderful you are, when you are not arguing over something, as mindless and as unimportant as this meaningless thread you started. And it is one of the most meaningless threads I have seen in the past 8 or 10 years I have been on this board.

You are not a body builder, go some where they want you, maybe the roid store.


It is very tiresome,

You argue, criticize, brag and say nothing constructive, you treat everyone like there experience and there lives are worthless,

but everything you have to say should be etched in stone. Why,

Stop your arguing and try, I know it is difficult but try to say one thing constructive, on any thread, even an important thread, just try it, you might feel better.

I don’t think you can do it, I don’t think you have the experience, I don’t believe you know what F body building is all about,

Just be cause you read some book or met some body builder does not make you an expert,

Go to your moms house tomorrow, sit in your office an prove me wrong,

Be constructive, I will say it again, I don’t think you could even if you wanted
 
Blood levels are peaked within a day or two...the initial post is totally correct. The ester mostly delays the time that it stays with you (active), not the time that it takes to peak.

The Genomic effects occur over the first maybe 24 hours or so and continue, while the non-genomic effects can occur immediately or over the course of time.

As for "feeling" effects, that's subjective, and not really...well, accurately quantifiable in this regard.
 
solidspine said:
Everybody knows all about your work, that’s all you do is talk about how wonderful you are, when you are not arguing over something, as mindless and as unimportant as this meaningless thread you started. And it is one of the most meaningless threads I have seen in the past 8 or 10 years I have been on this board.
..................................................................

YET YOU CAN'T SEEM TO KEEP COMING ON AND DISRUPTING IT. HOW OLD ARE YOU?


You are not a body builder, go some where they want you, maybe the roid store.

.................................................................

YEAH, REAL BODYBUILDERS DO TWO GRAMS OF GEAR A WEEK LIKE YOU, RIGHT? IF NOT, THEY'RE NOT SERIOUS. DUMBASS.

.............................................................................

It is very tiresome,

You argue, criticize, brag and say nothing constructive, you treat everyone like there experience and there lives are worthless,


.................................................................

I PREFER TO TREAT PEOPLE WITH RESPECT. MAYBE YOU'RE UPSET BECAUSE YOU THINK YOUR LIFE IS WORTHLESS BUT YOU SHOULDN'T PROJECT THAT ON OTHERS.


..........................................................................

but everything you have to say should be etched in stone. Why,

Stop your arguing and try, I know it is difficult but try to say one thing constructive, on any thread, even an important thread, just try it, you might feel better.

................................................

HOW ABOUT "SHUT UP."


..............................................................

I don’t think you can do it, I don’t think you have the experience, I don’t believe you know what F body building is all about,


.......................................................

LET ME GUESS, IT'S ABOUT BEING 57 YEARS OLD AND TRYING TO GAIN 40 POUNDS IN THREE MONTHS WITH ENOUGH GEAR TO KILL A HORSE. OOH, YOU'RE SUCH A REAL BODYBUILDER.


........................................................

Just be cause you read some book or met some body builder does not make you an expert,

...............................................................

WHAT? DUDE, I WROTE TWO BOOKS, PLUS HUNDREDS OF ARTICLES AND KNOW AND HAVE WORKED WITH SOME OF THE TOP PEOPLE IN THE INDUSTRY. I GET IT NOW. YOU'RE CONFUSING ME WITH SOME OF THE OTHER IDIOTS LIKE YOURSELF WHO PRETEND THEY ARE A SOMEBODY. YOU DON'T HAVE TO AGREE WITH ME BUT TRY TO GET YOUR FACTS STAIGHT.

.............................................................................

Go to your moms house tomorrow, sit in your office an prove me wrong,


.......................................................

THAT SENTENCE DOESN'T EVEN MAKE SENSE.


..............................................................

Be constructive, I will say it again, I don’t think you could even if you wanted

................................................................

YOU WANT TO HEAR SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE? NEVER REPRODUCE.
Click to expand...

..
 
Techinically I suppose you can say that they kick in immediately on a molecular level if you were to wait a day and measure levels... however does this registration of the AAS by the human body equate into body changes or improved gym performance right away? That is subjective. Some people will say no as they don't see benefits until week two or three. Some people will say yes. OF course some of the ones saying yes really are not seeing the gym benefits right away from the AAS but rather from the just the idea of "being own" (newbies.)
 
AAP said:
Techinically I suppose you can say that they kick in immediately on a molecular level if you were to wait a day and measure levels... however does this registration of the AAS by the human body equate into body changes or improved gym performance right away? That is subjective. Some people will say no as they don't see benefits until week two or three. Some people will say yes. OF course some of the ones saying yes really are not seeing the gym benefits right away from the AAS but rather from the just the idea of "being own" (newbies.)
Click to expand...


That's true too.
 
Although I have to admit that if I was on 3 weeks and it hadn't kicked in yet... I would be wondering if my shit was fake.
 
Day: Plasma Levels of injected hormone Peak
(Regardless of Ester or lack therof)

Following days:
Ester (or lack therof) determines the rate of decline

Period.
 
Blood levels are peaked within a day or two...the initial post is totally correct. The ester mostly delays the time that it stays with you (active), not the time that it takes to peak.

The Genomic effects occur over the first maybe 24 hours or so and continue, while the non-genomic effects can occur immediately or over the course of time.
Click to expand...




As for "feeling" effects, that's subjective, and not really...well, accurately quantifiable in this regard.

How you look is also well subjective and not really well, accurately quantifiable in this regard,


Just coincidentally the overwhelming single most important aspect of body building. Not how much test is in your system or if it is there on day 2 or day 2.5 or the same day as your Fina or ¼ of a day after the day you inject your 2nd deca shot.

Guess what Ain,t important, almost irrelevant at least to 99% of the body builders in the world.

Do you think we do this because we are trying to improve our health?

No one wants to intentionally abuse, hurt or damage them selves, but we all come damm close on a regular basis,

Fina, Dnp, T3, HCG, Clen --- did you think we take these products to improve our health,


I hate to be the one to break it to you and the boy from Montana, but body building is about appearance

sorry to shake your world, but as some sage man said (Plagiarized )

“Facts are facts” or translated from NM jargon to English,,, ah duh?
 
solidspine said:
Do you think we do this because we are trying to improve our health?

No one wants to intentionally abuse, hurt or damage them selves, but we all come damm close on a regular basis,

Fina, Dnp, T3, HCG, Clen --- did you think we take these products to improve our health,


I hate to be the one to break to you and the boy from Montana, but body building is about appearance sorry to shake your world, but as some sage man said

“Facts are facts” or translated from NM jargon to English,,, ah duh?
Click to expand...

I would prefer people to do things in a healthy way, if they choose to use steroids. Abuse is different than use.

I abused steroids, and now I use them.

Put another way (apologies to Chris Rock):

I love steroid users, but I hate Juice-Heads.
 
solidspine said:
Why not lose the myth that the nonsense you have been pushing is important to most of use.
Click to expand...
I enjoy Nelson's post whether I agree with them or not. Maybe his statements are not 100% accurate, but their is truth to them. I think these posts stimulate thought and raise people's awareness. These are both good for the board. I would rather read this thread then the other 50 threads on the front page like "do I need PCT for this cycle" or dbol only cycles.
 
solidspine said:
As for "feeling" effects, that's subjective, and not really...well, accurately quantifiable in this regard.

How you look is also well subjective and not really well, accurately quantifiable in this regard,


Just coincidentally the overwhelming single most important aspect of body building. Not how much test is in your system or if it is there on day 2 or day 2.5 or the same day as your Fina or ¼ of a day after the day you inject your 2nd deca shot.

Guess what Ain,t important, almost irrelevant at least to 99% of the body builders in the world.

Do you think we do this because we are trying to improve our health?

No one wants to intentionally abuse, hurt or damage them selves, but we all come damm close on a regular basis,

Fina, Dnp, T3, HCG, Clen --- did you think we take these products to improve our health,


I hate to be the one to break it to you and the boy from Montana, but body building is about appearance

sorry to shake your world, but as some sage man said (Plagiarized )

“Facts are facts” or translated from NM jargon to English,,, ah duh?
Click to expand...

Okay, I'm really starting to worry about you. You are an example of someone obsessed. I'm sorry that at fifty-something your life is so vacuous that all that matters is how much gear you can use and how much more space you can take up. You think that's what bodybuilding is? Maybe if you're a pro. You ain't.

Look at the picture in your sig. It's Steve Reeves. All 190 pounds of him. Beautiful. He was most probably a life time natty. (If not, we're talking tiny, tiny dosages. He wasn't that big at all). Are you saying he wasn't a bodybuilder?

I'm fully aware that health isn't the number one concern in bodybuildig these days. But the total disregard of it seems stupid. You can have both.

Personally, I'd rather have women like the look of my body than be the biggest guy with no life at the squat rack. I'd rather be healthy than sitting in a hospital bed saying "Yippee! I made it to 275 with 6% body fat!"


The whole point of this thread was for informational purposes. (The posts made by Anthony and AAP have been excellant, by the way). It turned into a feeble effort to discredit me or AR or anybody within range. But now, I think we can all see why. Sometimes, there's a frightened child crying for attention -- needing to be bigger so no one can hurt him anymore. And if he thinks he's been wrong, he becomes more scared and lashes out. That's all this is.

Seriously bro. Take a step back. Don't become yet another casulaity of what is otherwise a great activity.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Okay, I'm really starting to worry about you. You are an example of someone obsessed. I'm sorry that at fifty-something your life is so vacuous that all that matters is how much gear you can use and how much more space you can take up. You think that's what bodybuilding is? Maybe if you're a pro. You ain't.

Look at the picture in your sig. It's Steve Reeves. All 190 pounds of him. Beautiful. He was most probably a life time natty. (If not, we're talking tiny, tiny dosages. He wasn't that big at all). Are you saying he wasn't a bodybuilder?

I'm fully aware that health isn't the number one concern in bodybuildig these days. But the total disregard of it seems stupid. You can have both.

Personally, I'd rather have women like the look of my body than be the biggest guy with no life at the squat rack. I'd rather be healthy than sitting in a hospital bed saying "Yippee! I made it to 275 with 6% body fat!"


The whole point of this thread was for informational purposes. (The posts made by Anthony and AAP have been excellant, by the way). It turned into a feeble effort to discredit me or AR or anybody within range. But now, I think we can all see why. Sometimes, there's a frightened child crying for attention -- needing to be bigger so no one can hurt him anymore. And if he thinks he's been wrong, he becomes more scared and lashes out. That's all this is.

Seriously bro. Take a step back. Don't become yet another casulaity of what is otherwise a great activity.
Click to expand...

The best example of this was when Jay Cutler did an interview with FHM. He spoke about being a joke to the general population and getting made fun of.

I'm just not into that "look"...
 
Nelson Montana said:
worldclass: Have you got a point to make besides criticism about nothing?

nisser: I am not self proclaimed since I have credentials. What are yours? I also am not admittedly an expert in science. Never said I was, so you're wrong there too. This is a seperate issue. You don't need to be an expert in nautical engeneering to know if you have a hole in your boat.

Solidspine: You know nothing of my work, nor do you offer any contrarian theories of your own. You just complain. It's almost as if you resent having to think beyond your narrow framework. Of course, you will always find someone with an equally narrow point of view to agree with you. I guess it makes you all feel bigger if you stick together.

I welcome other perspectives. And I stand by my statements because they are correct. I have yet to hear any evididence to the contrary, though there have been some adendums that have been insightful. But not from any of you. I have, however, heard a lot of whining about a thread none of you can seem to stop paying attention to.


I
Click to expand...

What credentials? You got your BSc and PhD from wherE? Mama's basement suite? Seriously, stfu. If you want to have civil discussions, then do so with tact but dont' come here acting all high and mighty when you're far from it. Your "facts" are nothing more than uneducated opinions.
 
nisser512 said:
What credentials?
.........................................................

BEEN INVOLVED IN THE INDUSTRY FOR OVER 30 YEARS. OVER 300 ARTICLES PUBLISHED. TWO BOOKS. ENDORSED BY SOME OF THE TOP PEOPLE IN THE FIELD. RAN TRAINING BUSINESS FOR YEARS. BEEN QUOTED IN MAGAZINES, BOOKS AND ON NATIONAL TELEVISON. HEY, YOU ASKED. THERE'S MORE IF YOU LIKE.


.............................................................................................




You got your BSc and PhD from wherE? Mama's basement suite?


................................................................

DON'T CONFUSE ME WITH KNOW-NOTHING KIDS BRO. YOU'RE MAKING YOURSELF LOOK FOOLISH.


...............................................................................

Seriously, stfu. If you want to have civil discussions, then do so with tact but dont' come here acting all high and mighty when you're far from it.

...............................................................

I REALLY DON'T THINK I DO THAT, DO I? SURE, I HAVE A FLAIR FOR THE DRAMATIC AND I LIKE TO PRESENT THINGS IN AN ENTERTAINING FASHION. I MAY EVEN BE MORE PROVOCATIVE THAN THE NORM. JUST TRYING TO KEEP THINGS INTERESTING. IT SURE BEATS POSTS LIKE "WHAT'S THE BEST TESTOSTERONE." (HAVE YOU NOTICED HOW MANY HITS THIS THREAD HAS GOTTEN?) BUT I UNDERSTAND THAT SOME PEOPLE FIND IT THREATENING. BUT ONLY IF THEY'RE INSECURE. MOST BROS ARE COOL WITH IT, EVEN IF THEY DON'T AGREE 100%.


......................................................................

Your "facts" are nothing more than uneducated opinions.

...............................................................

A GROUNDLESS STATEMENT. IF YOU HAVE A RETORT , MAKE IT. SPOUTING UNJUSTIFIED CLAIMS AND BASELESS INSULTS JUST WEAKENS YOUR POINT -- NOT THAT YOU HAD ONE.
Click to expand...

..
 
solidspine said:
NELSON MONTANA WOULD YOU FUCKING GROW UP
OR SHUT THE FUCK UP,
YOU ARE REALLY STARTING TO PISS PEOPLE OFF.

FOR THE LOVE OF CHRIST.




Kicking in for most people is not a technical issue, and it is of course
VERY Debatable, Very much an opinion, and very, very disputable.


Are you tying to say I FEEL deca at the exact same time as someone else does?
Maybe some one 35 years younger than me, who is on gear for the first time.

Again your statement is inane, as always

Why do you have to lean in to a punch on every fricken tread, Why do you have to be the all knowing expert, the only authority? Hasn’t that bothered you before, it would bother normal people.





A fact is a fact, give me a break, global warming will kill us all- All gore,

It is indisputable, gear does not take weeks to kick in—nelson Montana,





Has nothing to do with the guys on gear but it is nelson’s opinion again, nothing more just his opinion.


Why again is it SO IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO BE THE AUTHORITY!!!!


In the past the information that most of received and learned from was not crammed down our throats as the only way, because “I” am an expert, but by guys that tried and experimented with gear and it worked for them.

You are not going to gain respect by demanding it, criticizing everyone who does not agree with you, and constant stating the obvious in esoteric terms.


And pissing everyone off.
Click to expand...

I think you need to drop the tren down a bit. ;)
 
Nelson Montana said:
Personally, I'd rather have women like the look of my body than be the biggest guy with no life at the squat rack. I'd rather be healthy than sitting in a hospital bed saying "Yippee! I made it to 275 with 6% body fat!"
Click to expand...

LOL
 
good post bro. at last someone who has said this that most will listen to.

personally i normally take a shot 2 to 3 hours before hitting the gym and i feel that shot when im there.

i can understand the thought that it may take a little while to stablise in your system as other meds do, for example my blood pressure meds took three weeks to get my level stable, they worked staright away but took time to get a stable level, same with my cholestrol meds.

good post bro.


Nelson Montana said:
I think on a site that has so many knowledgeable people and where others come for advice, it isn't too much to ask that certain information be accurate.

There are lots of issues where people will disagree, but facts are facts. And this one is the most commonly promulgated.


STEROIDS DO NOT TAKE WEEKS TO "KICK IN"!!!


That is not an opinion. It is not debatable. A fact is fact and this one is for sure. It is provabale. It is indisputable.

Blood levels of testosterone will be increased within hours of injection. You are then in an anabolically enhanced environment. Start making good use of it! Nitrogen retention has begun.

It's at the point where I get the feeling guys don't even train hard for the first few weeks because "the gear hasn't kicked in yet." What a waste. And it's all because of a notion which has been repeated so many times it's become regarded as truth. It isn't .

Of course, you may not see results for a while, but that doesn't mean the stuff isn't working. Personally, I always felt it after a few days.

If test is active for appox 10 days until the half life is essentially inert, what do you think happens to the first shot you take? Does anyone think it doesn't work because it knows you'll be doing other shots for the next 12 weeks? That's ridiculous! What is the reasoning here? I can't blame them though. That's what they've heard and that's what they believed and that's what they've passed on. It's time to let it go though.

Steroids do not "build up" in the system. They come and go. At week one you can have a T level of 2000ngs and at week 6 you can have a T level of 2000ngs. So why do you think week 6 is more productive? If anything, it's LESS productive because your natural T will be lower and your receptors will have downgraded more.

Sure, some guys will swear it doesn't "hit" them for a while. But it's a mistaken perception. Blood tests don't lie.

Prop acts a little faster (actually it's instant) but it's more a matter of being a short acting ester. That doesn't mean it necessarily works quicker, it just doesn't last as long. That has certain advantages, but not one that is applicable to long term use. Oh sure, guys will say how they got great gains form prop. No shit. EVERYTHING works. But there's a mechanism in which it works and isn't necessarily the way one may THINK it works.

The gains you make in week 2 will be the same gains you make in week 8 -- but of course, you've ammassed more gains over time. Get it? That doesn't mean they only came at the end. They've been building up for weeks!

This misinfomation is akin to a site about medicine debating the merits of voodoo. Enough already.

I don't want to make this a debate over short cycles vs long. Short cycles work if implimented correctly but they may not yield the results some people desire. Some guys need more time to build the muscle they want. That's fine. But it isn't because the gear hasn't kicked in for them. IT'S IN!

Now get to work.
Click to expand...
 
To the fellas who posted about the transcription and accumulated effects - Its definitely a fact, but not a good reason to half ass it in the gym.

To further agree with you two (I think it was worldclass and nfg), even nasal allergy steroids (non anabolic) take time to "build-up" in the system.
 
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