Learning something new everyday...

[Sassy69]

Winny, diet, cardio, Lobo's Legs - what am i missing???

I'm in week 3 of my first ever cycle - clen alt w/ ECA every other week and 25 mg injectible winny eod. Eating clean, 6 meals / day, watching the carbs because they like me more than I like them. And thanks to Lobo's "Killer Posts" repost, I started that evil training schedule w/ the 43 sets of legs on Day 5 (day 6 = crawl to work and then crawl to the elliptical machine for "light cardio"!)

I've been lifting naturally for several years, very hard core the last 2 years. Worked with a trainer at the end of last year for a competition, used 10 days worth of clen & T3 to push some bodyfat off, then blew up like a balloon after going off. Been having lousy time losing the fat since. My muscle mass is definintely up, but this fat stuff is getting ridiculous. My current stats are 5'7", 170 lb, 18%bf. Was 145lb, 12% bf in November.

Even with the training, diet and cardio, the fat isn't going away very fast. I don't want to get "bigger" anymore - already scare most of the guys in my gym w/ my calves. I just went to a new doc and ran blood tests for thyroid or anything else funny going on. Results in 2 weeks. Not sure of the short stint of T3 & clen screwed up anything (*this is where I found out how important it is to educate THYSELF instead of letting someone else administer for you*) but 5 months later it shouldn't matter. I definitely feel the effects of the winny as far as hardness / tightness, but not sure about leaning out.

The doc made an interesting comment about how much they don't understand about metabolism, once all other obvious medical causes of weight gain have been eliminated... Well, we'll see what the blood tests say.

Wondered if there's something in the above story that stands out to you guys as an obvious no-no that I have missed by obsessing too much about my weight. Or if any suggestions on altering anything. The frustration level has been high for a couple months now and I see it reflected in my relationships with other people now.

Lobo - I've been lifting hard for a year and half and that workout schedule of yours has left me feeling more pumped and more satisfied when I leave the gym than anything has in a while! Thx man - U ROCK!


~sassy arty:

 

[Sassy69]

Well, gee, yea I guess you could say i'm big.... but, "HUGE"??? Well, I brought it up. They tell me I wear it well. (Is that a compliment?? LMAO!) But actually I do - no heavy fat deposits - just kinda "thick" like retaining water. (God, the more I write the worse I make it sound... sorry)

Here's a sample meal plan:

<3 x / week AM cardio = 45 min>

7 am - 5 egg whites & 1/2 c oatmeal (or oatmeal w/ protein mix instead) + vitamins

11 am - 4-5 oz chicken, spinach + flax seed oil & vinegar

2 pm - nonfat cottage cheese + protein mix (Isopure, 0 carb)

5 pm - 4-5 oz chicken, broccoli + salsa (sometimes a protein bar if starving on the drive home)

<workout + cardio (alt w/ AM cardio)>

8/9 pm - protein mix + 4 oz sweet potato

11-12 midnight - 4-5 egg whites if hungry


BUT WAIT - I admit, its bumming me out to not be seeing bf loss, so my "emotional crutch" is ice cream or when I do better, natural peanut butter. But only on occassion. Diet coke is probably my biggest vice.

So maybe one question is, given a generally consistent clean, 6 meal/day diet, just how damaging is a few breaks? Sometimes I just can't look at another chicken....


I guess not sure if I'm asking questions or letting off steam while impatiently waiting for my blood tests.... But thanks for the board space guys.

 

[Sassy69]

Cardio at night is 45 min. (Yes, I did read the "30 + 30 NOT = 60" thread and loved it...) I generally do this schedule, though sometimes the morning and night cardio sessions get changed around depending on my work schedule, etc.

Is it possible to get so overtrained that you end up rebounding? The full history is a natural competition I did in August, competed at 133 lb 8-9% bf, bad post competition week ate junk, blew up to 150, 16%. Then started training w/ a new guy in September back down to 144, 12% bf by November. This trainer had me eating a lot more carb and protein in general, less cardio, introduce some desperation t3 & clen the last 10 days, definitely built more muscle. Also using ephedrine / NoDoz / Aspirin instead of the usual Ripped Fuel for 4 months 2 days on , 1 day off. Then, in frustration after going into a show I shouldn't have gone into at that wt/bf, I trained even harder through December planning on a competition in March. By the end of December I couldn't get my heartrate past 135 during cardio and could barely make it through a training session. I got some blood work done - everything normal. Then I went to see a guy about GH - one of those anti-aging places. So for huge amounts of money I decided to just go back to the gym. I did get more blood work done - my IGF-1 is on the low side of normal. And higher estrogen levels. So I took 10 days off from training, ECA, everything and started over w/ Adipokinetics. And been stumbling through the diet, training, cardio and frustration (= ice cream moments) ever since. My weight has held steady around 165 and 18-19% bf since December.

What gives?? So after all that, is it possible that I got really screwed up by the end of December from overtraining (or under recovery ...) and I'm rebounding now???

I dont' get it. So that's why I'm off to the doc again, more blood work, continued cardio, etc. I'm very healthy, haven't been sick in 2 years, stopped taking my birth control 3 months ago with no weird side effects, eat clean (except for the times when I just don't see any results) and generally sleep good (except when I get frustrated about the whole thing). This is an evil cycle that I have to get out of because it just perpetuates itself. And BTW, bb is a "lifestyle" and you can get too deep into it sometimes, as TWISTED STEEL noted. I"ve only just stepped into the AS side of it, but don't plan to just rely on that to address my issues here.

I'd be interested to hear if anyone has experienced a bad rebound effect from training.

~sassy

 

[Sassy69]

Yea you other guys - chime in!

WarLobo - you have mail.

~sassy

 

[Sassy69]

bump - any experiences? ideas?

 

[Sassy69]

bump bump!

Maybe I should've used a better teaser line on this thread, like "Winny gave me big b( o )( o )bs - wanna see??"

~ sassy

 

[Drifter]

LOL Sassy! That would definitely have gotten more views but I'm not sure the replies would have been what you wanted.

Good luck on getting the info you need.

 

[Superfrk]

Hi am a novice new to all this so take this not as advice but may be presenting this question to the board that I have it might help you. I saw a post by you earlier that you came off birth control with no problems a few months ago. Also you posted that you were on a cycle. it my understanding that birth control acts like an anti estrog. and was wondering if you were useing it on your cycle wouldn't it make you have really high levels of test in your system? Also you said alot of the weight was like bloating. So I wonder if this is a test rebound, or a continueing affect of high test levels. I am new to AS and am male so do not have much experince on this subject just thought I would post so that some of you guys could help her.

 

[mikki(hbdywi)]

wow!
sassy i couldn't have read your post at a better time.
I am fully and thoroughly frustrated. My circumstances aren't exactly the same but i can definitely relate. (right down to the diet coke and natural peanut butter...which are NOT regular things in my diet)
I am training hard, eating clean, drinking massive amounts of water, muscles feel good, muscles grow, fat won't leave
I had a friend suggest getting some bloodwork done. I would think i would have more symptoms than fatonmythighs if i was having some sort of medical problem.
i have to wonder if maybe there is a lot more fat IN my muscles than i thought and i am feeling that difference and not seeing it....
I have gone over everything i am doing 1001 times and can't figure out what it is that *I* am doing wrong other than obsessing
I truly love training but i get so frustrated that i want to say f-it....which i in fact did do last night because of this mind-F of feeling great and looking like a Mimi....

hopefully we can figure this out!
thanks for posting!!

 

[Sassy69]

COOL! Someone read my post!

Superfrk: I went off my bc before starting my cycle, so no interaction there. I actually didn't experience any bloating going off. My ob-gym said if anything I should lose wt from going off. Also my cycle is winny only - which is known for its non-bloating affect.

Mikki: Have you gotten your body fat measured? That's usually a good place to start. Its funny - like this one girl at work is my height and has a very cute shape but no muscle - her bf is like 26% and mine is 18% and I feel like a complete cow. So "feeling fat" is really a relative thing. If you are eating clean and lifting, I would say look at your cardio first - the only thing that really ever made a major difference for me was when I started doing morning cardio on an empty stomach 4 days/week. And with your diet, you might try "cycling" carbs - go a couple days w/ low carb and then a high carb day so your body doesn't get too comfortable working with the same dietary input all the time.

I admit my diet isn't as clean as I'd like right now - this is where the pyschological part of bodybuilding/weight lifting comes into play. Its depressing as hell not being able to drop fat despite doing all the "right" things. And frankly its a lame excuse to say "i am depressed therefore I eat junk". I personally need to refocus and set my sights on a goal. The one thing that is screwing all this up is the fact that I am experiencing some sort of rebound effect from my training last year and I don't know how long it would be before my body actually decides its safe to start letting some of the fat go.

And to top it all off, I got sick - waaaaaaaaaah. I've been out of the gym for 4 days now and hate it. But no one wants you sneezing all over the free weights, so probably better I stay home. Hopefully tomorrow. And also still waiting on my blood tests. At least if you get the blood work done, you will have a baseline and know that you are ok. Blood work from earlier this year showed that I had low (though still normal) DHEA and low GH levels. This would support the fact that I just naturally have a hard time losing weight. It helps to be able to see the physiological reasons why you are the way you are.

Good luck as well and I will keep my status posted.

~ sassy

 

[MS]

Well this is my first read of this thread, and I'm not clear on everything that's going on. Do you have a goal in mind? I mean, 18%bf isn't exactly fat for a woman! I am similar to you in that I go from 8(ish)% bf to 16-18%bf after a competition. I consider this 'normal' rebound weight gain and don't worry about it until I'm gonna compete again. Now when I decide to start dieting for a competition then I have to get strict with my diet. Just watching what I eat and eating clean won't get me there. I NEED that definite goal/deadline to lose the fat. And I have noticed most 'natural' women find it harder to lose the fat each time they diet. Maybe the winny will help in this respect? But if you don't have a specific goal in mind then staying lean will be very hard.

What does your diet look like right now (excluding the unplanned ice cream attacks)?

One other thing that a lot of people don't understand about %bf which can throw folks.....at 170lbs 18%bf you're carrying around 32 lbs of fat. Your friend may be 26% bf, but only 130lbs dripping wet (or less). She would be carrying 32 lbs of fat as well. If she is your height and you both carry the same thickness of subcutaneous fat over your muscles, then guess who's gonna look fatter? You are! And I am It's not a pleasant feeling for sure, but you musn't let it get to you. You're strong, fit and healthy. Be happy.

So......when's your next show??

 

[Sassy69]

MS - yes, definitely I DO appreciate where I am - I could be 350 w/ a heart condition. My frustration is that I follow the diet/training regimen but no results. I consider myself a "victim" of overtraining. Had a trainer who taught me much better posing and definitely gave me more thickness & mass, but also didn't adjust his usual diet/cardio to match my needs - carbs LOVE me. Maybe the biggest thing I missed from my competitions was a solid, reliable support system around me. (But that's another topic.)

As far as my goals - being fairly new to the whole competition thing, I have realized that it is a long prep process and better done on maybe a 6 month schedule instead of a 4 month schedule since I haven't achieved a lower maintenance weight yet. I would like to do another competition either by the end of this year or early next year. I would like to compete around 138 lb, 7-8 % bf. In the shorter term, just to be happy with my body again, and also as a starting point to approach competition shape, I want to be around 145-150 lb, 12-14% BF. So actually, I don't really have that far to go - but it just isn't budging at all. I've never been this heavy before, so its definitely not my usual "plateau". Seems like my metabolism is just "stuck" at the moment.

I am frustrated with the whole thing, but it is also getting me to look more closely at the chemistry and physiology of what is going on - and damn, am I learning lots....!

(Now if only I could toss this cold..... )

~ sassy

 

[skydancer]

I can relate!! I've been gaining muscle over the past year but BF is staying the same seemingly no matter what I do.

Looking at your sample diet...how many calories is that? Perhaps your body is rebelling against too little calories for too long? I've just begin to cycle my calorie intake...2 weeks at a low calorie rate, 2 weeks at a high calorie rate. This is reported to help keep your body guessing so it doesn't adapt to your caloric intake...

You might try it...its too soon for me to tell if its working or not but I'll keep you posted.

 

[Fennec]

I think Skydancer may be right - that doesn't look like enough calories for your height & weight. Have you tried having a good trainer/nutritionist evaluate your diet recently?

Also, you're eating clean, you're training hard, but are you getting in your cardio? When you do cardio, do you feel like it's a pretty high amount of effort you are putting out? How much cardio are you doing per/week?

And if those ice-cream, coke, and peanut butter slips are happening regularly (like every day?), and your calories ARE too low, your body is grabbing every chance to store it away.... I went through that vicious cycle for a good long time.

Hang in there! I just got over being sick too, so I feel for ya!

Fennec

 

[Sassy69]

hi fennec

yea being sick sucks big time - i think I'm treating myself to a good workout tomorrow finally!

Its hard to include the whole menu, training, etc. in a single post - I have been following a menu that is variations of the same one I have used in early stages of contest prep for about a year now. (I.e. blessed by 3 diff trainers) And more importantly, I've been following it since 6 months ago when I expected to see some body fat loss - or at least since then. Also cardio has been 5-6 45 min sessions / week plus roughly 3 days on , one day off of lifting. In the last 2 months I've moved some of that cardio to empty stomach early morning cardio, up to 60 min when I have the time (per Lobo's 30 + 30 NOT = 60 post!).

Granted the consistency of all this has been good for like 3 weeks at a time, then I get frustrated, plus a near loss this week (sick)... I definitely experienced major overtraining at the end of December - so I'm wondering what is the extent of the recovery period. Hopefully getting blood test results back after Memorial Day to verify nothing weird is going on physically. Then, dammit, I'll quit whining about it and just do it!



But it does suck when it just doesn't work like you expect it to. So patience, good friends and constant focus will bring back to where I want to be. (Starting to sound like the AA prayer...) But its true....

Thx for your input tho! Here's a toast to all the sis's and bros who keep the faith! (raises a glass of fizzing creatine with a zero carb protein mix chaser...)

~ sassy

 

[MS]

Sassy, I've had to read this post several times to try and figure out what's going on. It WOULD help if you posted all those obnoxious details about diet. But if I read this right, you've been "dieting" for a long time. If that's true then I can assure you that you're body has stopped responding to the diet. In this case you will need to increase your calories, probably drop your cardio (I recommend sprint intervals as a replacement) and basically stop "dieting" for a while until your body recovers from all the stress and trauma it's been through. Stopping your diet does not mean you eat anything and everything you want! It just means that you eat all you want of unprocessed, unsalted and in season whole foods. Try to limit you grain intake, especially in the second half of the day. Other than that eat what your body asks for. But I would still like to see what your current diet is like (I'm nosey and want to know what other trainer's are giving a thumbs up to).

 

[Temple]

MS - as you know I took off 50# last year and then the weight loss stalled out. IG told me to take my caloric intake to 2500 per day which I split into 250g protein, 188g carbs, 83g fat, I was going to do 2 days per week of 60 min moderate cardio with that but ended up doing no cardio and just eating and lifting my butt off. After the initial God awful water weight gain and a fat gain of a couple of pound my body stabilized, the water weight came off, strength went thru the roof and I felt like a new woman. I added 10mg of anavar about 7 weeks into that so I am a bit different and I started from a different place than what we are talking about here but my point is that after about 13 weeks on alot of calories I have now added 4 days of cardio in and my body is responding quite well without changing the diet. It has been rough as I was working my tail off and watching the scale go the wrong way and the clothes get tighter but I really think in the end I will end up leaner with more calories and less effort in the cardio department than if I had kept trying to force my body to do it on 1500 calories a day.

 

[Sassy69]

obnoxious details...

hey MS, Temple, all - thx for the responses. (I've been sick all week so I've been a little slow at getting around to things...)

Training:
generally lift about 2 days on / 1 day off

Cardio:
2-3 morning sessions (empty stomach)/week, 45 min
3-4 45 min sessions after lifting if not done in the morning
1-2 60 min sessions on non lifting days

Diet: (typical day)
7 am
- 5 egg whites (85 cal, 17.5g P, 1.5g C 0 F)
(or substitute 1 scoop protein mix (100 cal, 25g P, 0 C, 0 F)
- 1/2 c oatmeal (130 cal, 5g P, 23g C, 2.5g F)
+ vitamins

11 am
- 5 oz chicken (160 cal, 32g P, 0 C, 4g F)
- 2 cup spinach (24 cal, 2.5g P, 4g C, 0 F)
- 1 tbsp flax seed oil & vinegar (135 cal, 135g F)

2 pm
- nonfat plain yogurt (substituting for cottage cheese)
(140 cal, 11g P, 23g C, 0 F)
- protein mix (Isopure) (200 cal, 50g P, 0 C, 0 F)

5 pm
- 5 oz chicken (160 cal, 32g P, 0 C, 4g F)
- 2 c broccoli (48 cal, 5g P, 9g C, 1g F)
- salsa (2 g C)
- 4 oz sweet potato (118 cal, 2g P, 28g C, 0 F)

(sometimes a protein bar if starving on the drive home -
270 cal, 30 g P, 7g C, 5 gF)

<workout + cardio (alt w/ AM cardio)>

8/9 pm
- protein mix (200 cal, 50g P, 0 C, 0 F)
- 4 oz sweet potato (118 cal, 2g P, 28g C, 0 F)

11-12 midnight
- 4-5 egg whites if hungry (85 cal, 17.5g P, 1.5g C 0 F)
- optional 1 c broccoli (24 cal, 2.5g P, 4.5g C, 0.5g F)


Totals: 1787 cal, 259g P, 130g C, 151g F
------------------
And about 1.5 - 2 gal water / day

And get this! Getting down to like 5-6 diet cokes per WEEK!!!!!! (Got a great iced tea maker for xmas!)

One of the questions I have had is what are the long-term effects of overtraining? I've read that it can take weeks to months to "recover", with symptoms of depression, "slowed" thyroid, etc - though I haven't really found much on the topic... That's what my trip to the doc was for.

That's about it. Changed up my training last week to go more sets and more reps/lighter weights, upped some of the cardio to 60 min when I have the time.

Past experience and common sense say to just keep the diet more strict, but the hard part is I'm not really in contest prep, so just eating like a normal person is a challenge for me as I was in "contest prep" for 8 months last year and floundering around this year. Food is definitely my "crutch" when I get bummed out - so my short term goal is to stop that and relax about the diet a little (not the food schedule, just less obsessing about it) and work on getting to bed earlier so I can make those AM cardio sessions!

~ sassy

 

[Sassy69]

Bump for comments... anyone?

 

[MS]

Just quickly eyeballing your diet I get about 23g fat all up. I would rather see you inrease your fat and drop your carbs or protein. Your calories are also pretty low overall at around 10 cals per pound. Considering how much exercise you're doing, I think you may need more cals. I still think you should take a break from 'dieting' and just eat clean foods as your body dictates. Cut back on the cardio and increase weight training. At the rate you're going, you'll be unable to lose fat come time for your next show because you'll have nothing up your sleeve to trick your metabolism with. My $0.02

 

[Sassy69]

MS -

Did you catch the flax oil = 14.5 g fat (I called it 135 g F - that's what I get for counting calories late at night...) for a total of 31g fat.

This is a typical day, maybe alternate in some steak a couple times / week - I do this more out of habit - after training for 2 comps last year and just following the diet the trainer gave me, I kinda forgot how to eat like a normal person. Still working on that "moderation in everthing", so I tend to be better off with a well-laid out diet or maybe better term would be "eating plan". I live with the 6 meal/day thing pretty well. Try to keep the protein mix to after my workout (used to train over lunch so that moved the protein mix to later in the day). Sometimes I will cut the oatmeal out in the morning and just do eggs w/ broccoli or something like that.

I train pretty hard now, trying to get more out fewer, but 15 min longer cardio sessions and finally getting comfortable with "less time in the gym, more focus on diet". My goals are a little conflicting, being I want to fit in my swim suit this summer and then do a competition maybe in 6-8 months (depending on how the summer "diet" goes). As a result of training for my last comp in November and continued training (had been training much heavier with more carbs in the diet), frankly I feel like I made a switch in "body type" from body builder to power lifter - NOT what I wanted. I'd be very happy around 150 and 12-14% bf for the summer. Mostly I just feel "thick" right now. Of the two goals, the more important to me is the fit-in-the-swimsuit because I'm tired of not fitting in 80% of my clothes right now. The competition can wait if it has to.

Given that, what would you recommend I change in the diet? Note also I'm on the back side of my first winny cycle with clen alt w/ ECA. Considered a keto-style approach, but was told that defeat the cycle.

~ sassy

 

[Sassy69]

Bump for diet adjustments? comments?

~ sassy

 

[Sassy69]

Warlobo - you have mail.

 

[MS]

Well no one else seems to have any advice so you're stuck with my stubborn opinion. Yes I did catch the flax, and I think you could triple that for a start. I clock you at under 30g fat. By my reckoning that's 7-8% fat in your diet. Your total calories are barely over 10 cals per pound. Your carb intake is at 35%, you condiser this to be more 'normal' dieting so I'm assuming your diet has been even more extreme than this. You've been dieting for a very long time, and you wonder why your thyroid is on the low side of normal and your body no longer wants ot lose fat!!!!

I understand not wanting to feel 'thick' in a swimsuit, but I see you as having only a few choices. 1)Stop weight training and drop your protein down very low. You'll lose lots of muscle, and if you restrict your calories like you are at the moment then hopefully you might even lose a bit of fat. Increase you cardio to facilitate fat and muscle loss. In no time at all you can look like your nice shapely friend at 26%bf and no muscle.
2)Take lots of thyroid, clen, DNP, amphetamines or whatever you can get your hands on. Increase your winny and maybe throw in some EQ. Even though the EQ may increase your hunger, the amphetamines will blunt this effect.
3) Change you goals. Eat more, weight train more, cardio less to increase your metabolism to burn fat. Be a lean mean stunning machine in a swimsuit.

Any other ideas folks?

 

[Sassy69]

MS:

I think I'll opt for #3 - have a shit load of mass now I don't want to lose and can't afford the full battery of chemical help (not to mention the sides). I'm going to up the calorie intake and keep the lifting program I'm on.

Temple - you said you had to up the calories after a stall out - I've been on a pretty strict diet for over a year, except for the junk breaks - still follow roughly the same schedule as listed with the weighed out portions, etc. What was a typical day's menu when you did 2500 cals?
Seems the challenge is keeping carbs down, fat up and protein about the same....

~ sassy

 

[Temple]

I don't have the totals on this at the moment but it adds up to 2500 give or take:

protein shake with 1.5c skim milk + 2 scoops protein and 1 slice whole grain toast

protein pancakes or 1/2c oatmeal w skim milk

4 oz chicken breast, 1c yams, 4oz veges

protein shake

4 oz meat, 1/2 c brown rice, 1 c veges

protein shake

plus flaxseed oil and natural peanut butter

It will take nerves of steel to get thru the first three weeks of this as you will retain water like a MOFO but 3 moderate intensity 60min cardio sessions help. That is how long it takes for your metabolism to adjust, now I have trouble not eating more than that. After the first 3 weeks I dropped the cardio and just lifted my butt off.

Low rep/high weights on a 4 day split
10mg anavar ed

So far have added 11# lean mass, still have the fat over the top of it but am keeping the cals the same and am now adding 4 60min cardio sessions plus topical yohimbine hcl, will do this until fat loss stops and will look at carb cycleing at that point.