Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below I allways have/ still will allways lean bulk. But I'm completely retarded when it comes to cardio. Is there a certain time or certain thing I should do If I wanted to burn fat only (not calories) once or MAYBE twice a week to go along with my 4 day split? I ask this because it would probably help me in my lean bulking.
Lean bulking and cardio?
- Thread starter tommboy
- Start date
So many people say to do cardio first thing in the morning. But does anyone know why?
Actually I know the answer to that, but it is a misconception, though an understandable one since it's been promulgated by so many for so long. (Even in the absence of evidence).
Cardio in the morning and/or on an empty stomach does not burn any more fat than cardio at any other time. It is, however, more catabolic.
Actually I know the answer to that, but it is a misconception, though an understandable one since it's been promulgated by so many for so long. (Even in the absence of evidence).
Cardio in the morning and/or on an empty stomach does not burn any more fat than cardio at any other time. It is, however, more catabolic.
needtogetaas
New member
hmmmmmmmNelson Montana said:
Catabolism is the metabolic process that breaks down molecules into smaller units. It is made up of degradative chemical reactions in the living cell. Large polymeric molecules (polysaccharides, fatty acids, nucleic acids and proteins) are processed into their constituent monomeric units (i.e. monosaccharides, carbon units, nucleotides and amino acids, respectively).
Cells use monomers to construct new polymeric molecules and disassemble them to simple cellular metabolites (lactic acid, acetic acid, carbon dioxide, ammonia, urea, etc.). The creation of cellular metabolites is an oxidation process involving a release of chemical free energy, not all of which is lost as heat, but some of which is partially conserved through the coupled synthesis of adenosine triphosphate. The hydrolysis of this compound is subsequently used to drive almost every energy-requiring reaction in the cell. Catabolism provides the chemical energy necessary for the maintenance of the living cell. Examples of catabolic processes include breakdown of muscle protein in order to use amino acids as substrates for gluconeogenesis and breakdown of fat in adipose to fatty acids.
Because it is counterproductive to have anabolic and catabolic processes occurring in cells simultaneously, there are many signals that switch on anabolic processes while switching off catabolic processes and vice versa. Most of the known signals are hormones and the molecules involved in metabolism itself. Endocrinologists have traditionally classified many of the hormones as anabolic or catabolic.
digimon7068
New member
muscleup said:
. . .and don't eat for one full hour after you finish. . .works wonders for me. . .
Yeah, the "don't eat" part works well.
jackangel
New member
thank you for that completely relevant and enlightening cut and paste, need2.
my impression is that morning/fasted-state cardio is catabolic primarily because of the presence of higher cortisol levels upon waking. i don't know if it does much good, but i've recently taken to having a high-gi carb and whey mix immediately after a run, as if i had just come back from the gym.
as for the reason people do it, i thought it had to do with the ease with which one will go through stored glycogen or freely-circulating sugar as sources fuel and then tap into stored fat as a steady fuel source. i don't know the effect of metabolic processes during sleep on muscle glycogen, though.
or if fat will be preferentially targeted as opposed to muscle tissue via gluconeogenesis or something like that.
my impression is that morning/fasted-state cardio is catabolic primarily because of the presence of higher cortisol levels upon waking. i don't know if it does much good, but i've recently taken to having a high-gi carb and whey mix immediately after a run, as if i had just come back from the gym.
as for the reason people do it, i thought it had to do with the ease with which one will go through stored glycogen or freely-circulating sugar as sources fuel and then tap into stored fat as a steady fuel source. i don't know the effect of metabolic processes during sleep on muscle glycogen, though.
or if fat will be preferentially targeted as opposed to muscle tissue via gluconeogenesis or something like that.
jackangel said:
That was all theory hypotized by pundits back in the 90's. There is no evidence it works though. But the theory itself is flawed. The body does not go into "fat burning mode" because glycogen levels are low. That's also the theory of the Atkins diet and it's horseshit. The body still has glycogen even in the morning. At any rate, even if you were completely depleted of glycogen the body will more likely use muscle tissue for energy -- hence it's catabolic.
LOLOL
Well Nelson your not going to undo our "Theories" which tend to work.
some of us cant lose fat unless we do AM cardio and we have been around the block.
I also distinctly remember you being some what Ectomorphic which can to a degree explain you experiences with cardio.
being the Endo/ Mesomorph I am I am going to cling to my morning cardio if its the last thing I do, its simply woks TOO well for us.
Now that being said we are just disagreeing, its not a communist manifesto.
I enjoy your point of view as much as I enjoy my own
Cardio for people like us will raise BMR to a marked degree if done in the AM asap, the earlier in the day you do it, the earlier in the day you've raised your BMR. You will burn calories for a longer period of waking-hours .Hence more Net calories burned.
ADD a PM lifting session and good by fatty
Well Nelson your not going to undo our "Theories" which tend to work.
some of us cant lose fat unless we do AM cardio and we have been around the block.
I also distinctly remember you being some what Ectomorphic which can to a degree explain you experiences with cardio.
being the Endo/ Mesomorph I am I am going to cling to my morning cardio if its the last thing I do
, its simply woks TOO well for us.Now that being said we are just disagreeing, its not a communist manifesto.
I enjoy your point of view as much as I enjoy my own
Cardio for people like us will raise BMR to a marked degree if done in the AM asap, the earlier in the day you do it, the earlier in the day you've raised your BMR. You will burn calories for a longer period of waking-hours .Hence more Net calories burned.
ADD a PM lifting session and good by fatty
Last edited:
OMEGA said:LOLOL
Well Nelson your not going to undo our "Theories" which tend to work.
some of us cant lose fat unless we do AM cardio and we have been around the block.
I also distinctly remember you being some what Ectomorphic which can to a degree explain you experiences with cardio.
being the Endo/ Mesomorph I am I am going to cling to my morning cardio if its the last thing I do
Now that being said we are just disagreeing, its not a communist manifesto.
I enjoy your point of view as much as I enjoy my own
Cardio for people like us will raise BMR to a marked degree if done in the AM asap, the earlier in the day you do it, the earlier in the day you've raised your BMR. You will burn calories for a longer period of waking-hours .Hence more Net calories burned.
ADD a PM lifting session and good by fatty
No problem. I do think it's simply burning more calories and being aware of ingesting less calories that's "working." This is a case of one "theory" vs another. What makes more sense? Obviously if something works, it works, but there are many things that work. I've had clients who were endos who dropped a considerable abount of bodyfat with more weight training and less food. No cardio.
Having more muscle raises BMR far better than cardio. Cardio only burns calories while you're doing it and muscle burns calories throughout the day because it requires more energy to sustain muscles greater weight. That doesn't mean cardio won't do anything. I just think it isn't the best approach, especially for guys looking to put on muscle. And the "morning on an empty stomach " thing is, as mentioned, a theory. Have you tried doing an equal amount of cardio at another time of the day with the same exact training and diet?
This debate will go on forever. I guess the best thing is to say "Lots of things work -- what sounds best to you?" I can live with that. But when someone says running on an empty stomach forces the body to use more fat than usual...well, I can't take that as fact.
Thanks, I think your point of view is technically MORE correct then my own, especially if we truly number crunch calories in vs calories expended referenced over ones true LBM.
I just have never been able to translate that INTO reality
and that seems to hold true generally for alot of people, enough so where we almost religiously believe in am cardio at to hell with everyone else hehe
I just have never been able to translate that INTO reality
and that seems to hold true generally for alot of people, enough so where we almost religiously believe in am cardio at to hell with everyone else
hehe
ProtienFiend
New member
the theory is true, with a clause.... run in the morning on an empty stomach, only if youre juicing, otherwise you will lose too much muscle.
Nelson Montana said:
Ya I don't know Nelson, the Atkins diet dropped a lot of weight from a lot of people, I've seen it work. Now personally I think something like the southbeach diet is healthier but still...
So are you one of those guys that says "calories in calories out", it's just a matter of eating less than you burn no matter when you eat and when you train? Or do you have a different suggestion for optimal muscle retention and fat loss during a lean bulking cycle?
D_Mac said:
Okay, this is what I mean. The Atkins diet worked, but it wasn't because it suddenly altered tens of thousands of years of biolocal evolution and the people using it started using fat as a primary fuel source. It worked because THEY ATE LESS CALORIES. (You'd be surprised how many calories you'd drop if didn't eat carbs). Sure, there are some people who didn't eat less calories on the ATkin's diet. They're the ones who didn't lose weight.
I know it isn't the theory in vouge, but yes, it's about calories.
DISCALIMER: That doesn't mean you can eat nothing but crap and it's just as good as anything else. But once healthy dietary needs are met, yep, calories, calories, calories -- at least in terms of weight gain or loss.
It ain't fancy, modern, scientific sounding, or what the latest guru is saying, but it's the absolute undeniable truth. And I say that after studying and espousing many of those fancy theories.
Calorie surplus -- you gain weight. Calorie deficit -- you lose weight. Works every time.
I also think it's very possible to gain muscle and lose fat. But if you want to get the best results from one or the other you need to concentrate on doing one or the other.
jackangel said:
I think the post workout window of opportunity has some merit but is overrated.
To answer your question, high volume training/high protein diet. Pretty simple.
ProtienFiend
New member
Nelson Montana said:
And train to failure or no?
ProtienFiend said:
There are many ways to reach "failure." And the term is nebulous. That's a discussion in itself.
I did take a personal training course that was accredited by a national orginization, I think it was W.I.T.S (world instructing training school). And they definately went over that you cannot burn fat only food/calories you eat any other time of day but in the morning. They also said that in the morning on an empty stomach you don't burn stuff you ingested that day but rather body fat. But you can lose weight by working out any other time of the day and burning calories.
tommboy said:
It seems to make sense that this would be the case, I mean you only have a limited amount of stored sugars and then your body has to eat its own fat to get energy. The question is, does your body just pack that fat back on as soon as you eat, leading to the same amount of fat loss in the day anyway, also there is the question of wether or not the body burns more muscle during morning periods as well.
Morning cardio would have the benefit of jumpstarting the metabolism early, although that wouldn't be dependant on an empty stomach, just on an early workout...
Hey guys I posted a poll related to this here:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=540488
so go weigh in and we'll see what the people say...
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=540488
so go weigh in and we'll see what the people say...
D_Mac said:
Absolutely wrong. Here's why.
For one thing it would take DAYS to be completely deprived of any carbohydrate source. Just because you have an "empty" stomach doesn;t mean there's no glycogen in your body.
And even if you were completely carb deprived, it's easier to use 4 calorie energy units that 9. Fat is 9, muscle and carbs are 4. The body is very efficient. If you tell it to run long distances with no fuel it will react in the most logical way imaginable -- by losing weight. But muscle weighs more than fat and is easier to burn. Hence -- catabolic.
heavy_duty
New member
Nelson you're starting to sound like my IART pals 
