kung fu....why bother?

[Spanky11]

normally I don't like to get into a discussion over what martial art is better than the other, but kung fu is really not effective at all.

if you go to kazaa, and try to find a vid from a japanese tv show where some kungfu guys challenged a kyokushin dojo in 3 matches in full contact . I don't think you have to imagine what happened to the kung fu guys.

seriously, kung fu is worthless in my opinion.

 

[NFL's4puffs]

what a loada bollocks! u reckon kung fu is useless? you wanna
take a look at the shaolin monks in training my friend. if you
allready have then youll know that they are the best fighters
in the world. the training they do is unbelievable. think before
you make a judgement cause saying kung fu is useless is
like saying osama bin laden and bush are the best of mates!
hehe! id like to see any of the top ufc fighters say yeh ill
have a bout with Shi xeng shou! none of them would last 1
minute! FACT

 

[Big Rick Rock]

normally I don't like to get into a discussion over what martial art is better than the other, but kung fu is really not effective at all.

if you go to kazaa, and try to find a vid from a japanese tv show where some kungfu guys challenged a kyokushin dojo in 3 matches in full contact . I don't think you have to imagine what happened to the kung fu guys.

seriously, kung fu is worthless in my opinion.

Kung Fu is big money.... where else is mom going the leave her kids while she goes to the supermarket on a saturday?

 

[danielson]

some places are, just like some Karate places are now financial superstores for the instructor in charge, but like all things it really depends on the style


there are styles of kungfu where conditioning involves kicking a tree, or smashing your hands onto iron, kicked punched and slapped in the abdomen and lats, forearm and arm condtioning for blocking etc

then add to the fact that the elbow strikes i learnt in kung fu were equally emphasised in thai.you can't discount an entire system of martial arts which have been slowly refined for thousands of years on the basis of people that havent trained practically or are inexpreienced in it...

 

[digger]

Different strokes for different folks. I do enough damage to my hands pounding a keyboard all day without adding knuckle pushups.

I'm never going to find myself in the ring with Mike Tyson. If I run into a punk who thinks one of my ears would look good on his keychain, I'm better off with a style that comes naturally to me, even if it's not "the ultimate style."

 

[DANABOLIC55]

normally I don't like to get into a discussion over what martial art is better than the other, but kung fu is really not effective at all.

if you go to kazaa, and try to find a vid from a japanese tv show where some kungfu guys challenged a kyokushin dojo in 3 matches in full contact . I don't think you have to imagine what happened to the kung fu guys.

seriously, kung fu is worthless in my opinion.

In a sport situation where you can't gouge eyes & throats-yes it's worthless.
Kung fu is effective in very close range- and used to strike first and stay on top of him. If not, the kung fu person will get out boxed.
There are certain sensetivities that are developed that will help you in the thai clinch. However, if I had to choose, I would choose Thai over kung fu any day.

That smack your arms on iron shit is crazy though. It may have been a cool ritual back in the day. But, now it's unneccesary.

I would never rely on KF by itself.

I

 

[illusionofsize]

normally I don't like to get into a discussion over what martial art is better than the other, but kung fu is really not effective at all.

seriously, kung fu is worthless in my opinion.

Really,????

Tell that to Dan Inosanto, PAul Vunak, Larry Hartsell.(JKD)
Tell it to Cicoy Canete, Tony Diego,Mark Wiley. (KALI/ESCRIMA)
Tell it to William Cheung, Jimmy Woo,Doc Fai Wong. (Kung FU)
Tell it to Hee il Choi, Jhoon Rhee ( TKD)
Tell it to Matsuma, the late JIgoro Kano. ( Okninawan Karate)
Tell it to Jean Yves Theriault, Don Wilson.(Kickboxing)

ALL OF WHOM credit their basis in martial arts to Chinese kung fu.

You do understand the "ART" part of martial arts???
Kung fu if not a valuable "street tool"(i disagree) is still the most beautiful and artful.

Don't bother with your reply" I'm talking about what works in a fight"
Christ, in that case forget any martial art....I'll take a gun.

Train in it before you speak to it.

 

[Babyfaced Assassin]

Whoa Illusionofsize!!!!
best answer ever!!

You are my new hero and role model!

 

[Spanky11]

Really,????

Tell that to Dan Inosanto, PAul Vunak, Larry Hartsell.(JKD)
Tell it to Cicoy Canete, Tony Diego,Mark Wiley. (KALI/ESCRIMA)
Tell it to William Cheung, Jimmy Woo,Doc Fai Wong. (Kung FU)
Tell it to Hee il Choi, Jhoon Rhee ( TKD)
Tell it to Matsuma, the late JIgoro Kano. ( Okninawan Karate)
Tell it to Jean Yves Theriault, Don Wilson.(Kickboxing)

ALL OF WHOM credit their basis in martial arts to Chinese kung fu.

You do understand the "ART" part of martial arts???
Kung fu if not a valuable "street tool"(i disagree) is still the most beautiful and artful.

Don't bother with your reply" I'm talking about what works in a fight"
Christ, in that case forget any martial art....I'll take a gun.

Train in it before you speak to it.

Actually, I have trained in it, and trained with alot of the guys that you mentioned above in seminars over the years. Regarding Kung Fu (the traditional styles at least), I found that there was just a little too much mysticism behind the whole thing, i mean Dim Mak, and all that crap.... I guess thats why I like Kyokushin karate - there is no bullshit, and it only uses what works. Kyokushin itself uses some KF movements, and nearly all modern arts rely on the circular movements in striking and blocking....but the thing is, its the traditional Kung Fu styles that haven't progressed, and thats why I think they are useless.

As for the other marital artists you named, I think you'll find that nearly all of them have incorporated many other styles into their arsenal - and not just "iron claw", and "preying mantis" (incidentally, where do they come up with these great names?).

I advise you to actually download the clip and see for yourself - trad KF is an "art" and yes, it does look beautiful, but I just find that it lacks any real power.

Just my (unasked for) .02c

 

[Big Rick Rock]

I think there are a lot of scam artist, or as Danabolics calls them "Strip Mall" senseis, that have damaged the reputation of Kung Fu... People just out to make money and not trying to advance the art. They will take their students monthly tuition and don't really care about their progress. They use the belt system as a retention tool and care nothing about advancing students based on skill.
What you get is a bunch of kids that have basicaly PAID for their belts and then get the snot beaten out of them by a good boxer, or wrestler or even a street fighter.

 

[illusionofsize]

I think there are a lot of scam artist, or as Danabolics calls them "Strip Mall" senseis, that have damaged the reputation of Kung Fu... People just out to make money and not trying to advance the art. They will take their students monthly tuition and don't really care about their progress. They use the belt system as a retention tool and care nothing about advancing students based on skill.
What you get is a bunch of kids that have basicaly PAID for their belts and then get the snot beaten out of them by a good boxer, or wrestler or even a street fighter.

I agree BRR.
But it's not just Fu. I have seen lots of Karate, Kick-boxing and TKD clubs that use strip mall tactics to make money. A black belt doesn't automatically make someone a good teacher. Nor does a good fighter.
I fight pretty good and hold rank in a few different styles but to be honest, I can't teach a class worth sh*t. One on one instruction with a smart person, yes but classroom/group training. I am all studders and misdirection.

 

[illusionofsize]

I found that there was just a little too much mysticism behind the whole thing, i mean Dim Mak, and all that crap....

but the thing is, its the traditional Kung Fu styles that haven't progressed, and thats why I think they are useless.

, I think you'll find that nearly all of them have incorporated many other styles into their arsenal -
and not just "iron claw", and "preying mantis" (incidentally, where do they come up with these great names?).

1.I agree with the mysticism, but all styles posees that to some degree.
Does the Thai grave dance make the sport more combat effective?? No, but it is an integral part of the style.
DOes counting " ich, ni, sun, sei," make any more sense than using 1,2,3,4??
No, but Most Japanese styles insist upon it as well as wearing gi's and Hakama even in a non-grappling environment where training in shorts an T would be much more comfortable.
DO you see what I'm saying? All styles contain tradition that IMHO, should not be forgotten in the name of combat effective practicality. Other wise we may as well all train American shoot or collegiate wrestling and boxing

2.How can you say that traditonal styles have not progressed? Some have some haven't. The same can be said for many styles of Karate.
William Cheung has certainly taken Wing Chun to new levels, introducing advanced blade and weapons work as well as modifing some hand sets to better defend and attack against modern boxing.

3.Yes they have incorporated many other arts. But remember Bruce Lee created JKD from 27 elements of which 12 were Kung fu styles. How can an such an art, proven combat effective, have a base of Kung fu that is IYO, useless.? There must have been some practical things in those 12 styles of Kung fu. Filipino arts melted Kung fu, Kun Tao, BOxing(boksing), Spanish sword(espada y daga) and whatever else they could find to create the escrima/Kali systems that are so respected for combat effectiveness for years.
I trained Mande Muda Silat with Herman Suwanda before he died. A blend of pure Indonesian Silats such as Harimau and cippecut. AND I'll put it up against any sytem out there for combat effectiveness.

Iron claw, Preying mantis comes from the old 5 animal syatems descriptions and from the nun(i forget her name) who invented Kung fu.
Yes the names are silly when translated, but so is jab, jab, double rack 1,2. overhand, bob.

Or "canopener, banana split, heel hook,"

Or ikari wagazi or whatever the japanese kicks are. It cracks me up when talking to a karatetka who uses the japanese terms for his moves.
Where I come from, a roundhouse is a roundhouse.

One last thing. You take kyo kushinkai?
SO you use a low horse stance with reverse punchs from the hip to build shoulder strength???
Cool, where's the practicality of holding your hands that low.
I protect the head, not the hip.

 

[illusionofsize]

Whoa Illusionofsize!!!!
best answer ever!!

You are my new hero and role model!

lol. Bro, you're the one doing K-1 next year. That's a MA role model.

Unless that was sarcasm^^^^.

 

[Spanky11]

One last thing. You take kyo kushinkai?
SO you use a low horse stance with reverse punchs from the hip to build shoulder strength???
Cool, where's the practicality of holding your hands that low.
I protect the head, not the hip.

You almost earned some respect as a knowledgeable martial artist, until I read those last last 3 sentences. Kyokushin is a full contact style of karate. Most of the top and past K1 fighters had their grounding in it. It is certainly not Shotokan, and no real deep stances are ever used. The hands are always up around the head - just like in kickboxing, to be ready to block the round house kicks that are aimed at your head, or knees.

Like I keep saying, go to kazaa and download the clip. Here's how to find it:

Go into Kazaa, hit the search button, and type in "kyokushin" in the "all" section, not just the video section.

a file will pop up that is 52, 936KB long called "Kyokushinkai vs Kung Fu", the artist is Alan do Nascimento.

 

[Mr.HeavyDuty]

what a loada bollocks! u reckon kung fu is useless? you wanna
take a look at the shaolin monks in training my friend. if you
allready have then youll know that they are the best fighters
in the world. the training they do is unbelievable. think before
you make a judgement cause saying kung fu is useless is
like saying osama bin laden and bush are the best of mates!
hehe! id like to see any of the top ufc fighters say yeh ill
have a bout with Shi xeng shou! none of them would last 1
minute! FACT

hahahahhahahahahaha!!! this one gets the dumbest comment of the month award. hahahahaha!!! c'mon bro, these guys are DEFINETLY well trained and EXTREMELY dedicated, but they would not last a minute inside of an octagon or a ring. while they are well versed in their art they are not a well rounded enough fighter to survive today's modern mma fighter. i don't believe any martial art is useless if you enjoy it, but saying that the monks are the best fighters in the world (when they don't fight at all anyway) is completely ludicrous. FACT!!!

 

[Babyfaced Assassin]

No sarcasm bro, i believe as a martial artist you can learn from anyone and anything
ANy style
I will listen to a total newbie critiqueing my technique if he says it with integrity and i listen without ego...

I can find role models in people better or worse than me... ntot hat there are people worse than me because i like to think that there's only better

 

[DANABOLIC55]

No sarcasm bro, i believe as a martial artist you can learn from anyone and anything
ANy style
I will listen to a total newbie critiqueing my technique if he says it with integrity and i listen without ego...

I can find role models in people better or worse than me... ntot hat there are people worse than me because i like to think that there's only better

Perfect attitude. Very well said.

 

[digger]

trad KF is an "art" and yes, it does look beautiful, but I just find that it lacks any real power.

China is not exactly Rhode Island. Yeah, you can find a slaps-like-a-girl style of KF if you look for one. So? Off the top of my head, you have Northern styles, Southern styles, times External vs. Internal, so there are four major categories right there before we even name a single specific school.

Beware anyone who lumps many different things together and then dismisses them all at once. It's a bad habit in oneself, and suspicious in others.

 

[illusionofsize]

Spanky, no offense. You posted the answer I was looking for. I was waiting for you to defend a hip chambered punch. The fact that you keep em up is good enough for me.
As far as respect goes..... This is internet. I seek no respect.The only way to truly know how good someone is is to train with them. Any one of us could be talking out our ass after reading a couple a BB magazines or inside kung-fu.

BFA, I agree with you completely. My sifu taught me humility a long time ago.

 

[Big Rick Rock]

Like I keep saying, go to kazaa and download the clip. Here's how to find it:

Go into Kazaa, hit the search button, and type in "kyokushin" in the "all" section, not just the video section.

a file will pop up that is 52, 936KB long called "Kyokushinkai vs Kung Fu", the artist is Alan do Nascimento.

Ok I just DL'ed the vid... I'm not sure if this is the one you are talking about...

It looked like a couple of guys doing some kind of "Drunken Style Kung Fu".
Both of the Kung Fu guys got Owned by supperior defense and kicks to the head... one caught an Axe kick to the face, didn't really hit him square otherwise it would have broken somthing serious.

 

[theoak01]

In a sport situation where you can't gouge eyes & throats-yes it's worthless.
Kung fu is effective in very close range- and used to strike first and stay on top of him. If not, the kung fu person will get out boxed.
There are certain sensetivities that are developed that will help you in the thai clinch. However, if I had to choose, I would choose Thai over kung fu any day.

That smack your arms on iron shit is crazy though. It may have been a cool ritual back in the day. But, now it's unneccesary.

I would never rely on KF by itself.

I

bro there are enough different styles you could incorperate a few different styles and be very effective inclose or on defense

 

[ManOfArms]

Kung Fu is big money.... where else is mom going the leave her kids while she goes to the supermarket on a saturday?

Not the school I attended, I was very lucky to have such a good instructer as the one I had. His style of teaching didn't really work out for a lot of people, which was the reason only about 6 of us remained year after year. Finally his rent on the studio was too high to cover with the number of students he had.

 

[araiber]

The monks comment, regarding them having the ability and strength to win in the octagon, or the ring in pride, is a bit farfetched. They are extremely powerful, extremely well trained because of they're belief and traditions, and as stated, dont ever use they're fighting ability to fight, simply to showcase the abilities on its own. There have been many "david vs. goliath" fights where the smaller, quicker, and possibly weaker guy won, but if vitor belfort comes out swinging towards a monk, I honestly dont think that the monk will block his shots, and do a roundhouse kick to his head.

Ive seen monks balance themselves on they're index fingers alone, and its an insane amount of strength that they exhibit, but that alone cannot determine a winner by today's standard.

If you place Bill Kazmier into a ring with Randy Couture, its hard to say who will win. Bill having the insane strength and ability to rip him apart, or Couture's magnificent fighting ability.

Its all how you apply a martial art, and it is what it is. There are always more effective ways to do things different ways. Some people see kicking someone in the balls during a fight as being a pussy, some see it as being ok, because it is a fight, and the opponent should be aware that his balls, too, are a target, and can be hit, just the same as his head, stomach, or face.

 

[Kane Fan]

what a loada bollocks! u reckon kung fu is useless? you wanna
take a look at the shaolin monks in training my friend. if you
allready have then youll know that they are the best fighters
in the world. the training they do is unbelievable. think before
you make a judgement cause saying kung fu is useless is
like saying osama bin laden and bush are the best of mates!
hehe! id like to see any of the top ufc fighters say yeh ill
have a bout with Shi xeng shou! none of them would last 1
minute! FACT

how old are you?

 

[Kane Fan]

some places are, just like some Karate places are now financial superstores for the instructor in charge, but like all things it really depends on the style


there are styles of kungfu where conditioning involves kicking a tree, or smashing your hands onto iron, kicked punched and slapped in the abdomen and lats, forearm and arm condtioning for blocking etc

then add to the fact that the elbow strikes i learnt in kung fu were equally emphasised in thai.you can't discount an entire system of martial arts which have been slowly refined for thousands of years on the basis of people that havent trained practically or are inexpreienced in it...

that's true
but if the system dosn't allow at least light contact sparring I think we can discount it alltogether
except for getting in generaly good shape

I would be interested in trying out some styles of Kung Fu but I wouldn't count on it to turn me into a fighting machine
I wouldn't count on any one style really
but I'd give it a try to say I had given it a try
I'd like to try Snake Style KungFu actually because I think it would help with hand speed
Tiger Style would be cool just cus you know Tigers
and there is some style that is a descendant of Tiger style I believe that is Bear style I love Bears so that would be awsome to

 

[BOSSDAWG]

first chinese boxing is still very effective.no 2 bear and fu jow pai are two different arts. Plus monks practice sanda all the time which a fight bare knuckles with no rules on an octagnal platform. The monks fight all surrounding schools because they hafta uphold thier fighting repution. An example of a sanda and sanshou stylist would be Cung lee. obovuoisly kane would not like fu jow do to no glove training and all bare knuckle heavy bag training in the style.

 

[Kane Fan]

The monks comment, regarding them having the ability and strength to win in the octagon, or the ring in pride, is a bit farfetched. They are extremely powerful, extremely well trained because of they're belief and traditions, and as stated, dont ever use they're fighting ability to fight, simply to showcase the abilities on its own. There have been many "david vs. goliath" fights where the smaller, quicker, and possibly weaker guy won, but if vitor belfort comes out swinging towards a monk, I honestly dont think that the monk will block his shots, and do a roundhouse kick to his head.

Ive seen monks balance themselves on they're index fingers alone, and its an insane amount of strength that they exhibit, but that alone cannot determine a winner by today's standard.

If you place Bill Kazmier into a ring with Randy Couture, its hard to say who will win. Bill having the insane strength and ability to rip him apart, or Couture's magnificent fighting ability.

Its all how you apply a martial art, and it is what it is. There are always more effective ways to do things different ways. Some people see kicking someone in the balls during a fight as being a pussy, some see it as being ok, because it is a fight, and the opponent should be aware that his balls, too, are a target, and can be hit, just the same as his head, stomach, or face.

I think what you say makes a lot of sence
the motivation factor
I am not convinced that doing tricks WITHOUT AN OPPONENT has any impact what so ever on what you can do against someone fighting you but even assuming the monks are actionmoviebadasses, they have nothing making them want to compete, no motivation
a police officer, doing his job, with that motivation can out grapple somebody that would destroy that same officer in a grappling tournament
motivation, whatathletes call hunger is a big impact
you can't assume because someone can shatter a brick with his ballsack he will defeat a fighter who can't do the same thing

 

[Sy Ali]

I once saw this video clip somewhere on the internet, I don't remember where so you have no idea what I'm talking about, so I'll be vague and say it had a title something like so and so but it featured some stuff with this one guy and this other guy where this one guy really kicked the crap out of this other guy and I don't who they were or what their credentials are or really why they were fighting, or where or what the rules were or really the point of the video but I'm going to make a broad statement with no supporting evidence.


Trolling? Yep!

 

[Kane Fan]

first chinese boxing is still very effective.no 2 bear and fu jow pai are two different arts. Plus monks practice sanda all the time which a fight bare knuckles with no rules on an octagnal platform. The monks fight all surrounding schools because they hafta uphold thier fighting repution. An example of a sanda and sanshou stylist would be Cung lee. obovuoisly kane would not like fu jow do to no glove training and all bare knuckle heavy bag training in the style.

do you think you could have this translated to English
all I got out of it was monks spar
and there is a whole paragraph there so it seems there should be more

 

[Spanky11]

I once saw this video clip somewhere on the internet, I don't remember where so you have no idea what I'm talking about, so I'll be vague and say it had a title something like so and so but it featured some stuff with this one guy and this other guy where this one guy really kicked the crap out of this other guy and I don't who they were or what their credentials are or really why they were fighting, or where or what the rules were or really the point of the video but I'm going to make a broad statement with no supporting evidence.


Trolling? Yep!

actually, i do know where that was filmed - hell, I have even trained at that dojo a few years ago. and yes, i have even seen the entire video from that network station...the local kung fu club challenged kyokushin karate on sparring, and so the instructor picked his best 3 guys who were training and that was the result.

trolling? yes. a moron that you are? definately.

dim mak to you

 

[Jacob Creutzfeldt]

Really,????

Tell that to Dan Inosanto, PAul Vunak, Larry Hartsell.(JKD)
Tell it to Cicoy Canete, Tony Diego,Mark Wiley. (KALI/ESCRIMA)
Tell it to William Cheung, Jimmy Woo,Doc Fai Wong. (Kung FU)
Tell it to Hee il Choi, Jhoon Rhee ( TKD)
Tell it to Matsuma, the late JIgoro Kano. ( Okninawan Karate)
Tell it to Jean Yves Theriault, Don Wilson.(Kickboxing)

ALL OF WHOM credit their basis in martial arts to Chinese kung fu.

You do understand the "ART" part of martial arts???
Kung fu if not a valuable "street tool"(i disagree) is still the most beautiful and artful.

Don't bother with your reply" I'm talking about what works in a fight"
Christ, in that case forget any martial art....I'll take a gun.

Train in it before you speak to it.

If Kung-Fu is so effective for their persuit, why did they change arts and dedicate their lives to promoting the new art over kung-fu?

Truthfully kung-fu is translates roughly as 'hard training' in some chinese dialect. It is an umbrella term used to describe any chinese martial art, thus encompases many different stylistically unrelated arts. I would not think anyone with martial art experience or even a casual observer would think San-Shou kickboxing is stylistically similar to tai chi, yet they both fall under the umbrella term 'Kung-fu'.

To answer the original question posted, their are probably many answers as evidenced by the fact that Kung Fu is practiced by hordes of people. Some people may be in it for love of the art itself and not strictly combat or self defense. Others may use it as a social outlet, the art being secondary. Others may truly believe that it is an effective combat system. I would recommend asking practitioners as I'm sure the answers are quite varied.

 

[Spanky11]

If Kung-Fu is so effective for their persuit, why did they change arts and dedicate their lives to promoting the new art over kung-fu?

Truthfully kung-fu is translates roughly as 'hard training' in some chinese dialect. It is an umbrella term used to describe any chinese martial art, thus encompases many different stylistically unrelated arts. I would not think anyone with martial art experience or even a casual observer would think San-Shou kickboxing is stylistically similar to tai chi, yet they both fall under the umbrella term 'Kung-fu'.

To answer the original question posted, their are probably many answers as evidenced by the fact that Kung Fu is practiced by hordes of people. Some people may be in it for love of the art itself and not strictly combat or self defense. Others may use it as a social outlet, the art being secondary. Others may truly believe that it is an effective combat system. I would recommend asking practitioners as I'm sure the answers are quite varied.

good post.

 

[Djimbe]

I would not think anyone with martial art experience or even a casual observer would think San-Shou kickboxing is stylistically similar to tai chi, yet they both fall under the umbrella term 'Kung-fu'.

This is a common Misconception . "San Da/San Shou" are RULESETS , not SYSTEMS . In fact one of the best San Da fighters that was sent over to Thailand by china was , in fact , a Taijiquan stylist himself .

 

[Djimbe]

You almost earned some respect as a knowledgeable martial artist, until I read those last last 3 sentences.

So did you before you started Style-Whoring .

Kyokushin is a full contact style of karate. Most of the top and past K1 fighters had their grounding in it.

So what youre BASICALLY saying is that the Promoters travel in the same social circles ? Or even that the same Ppl promote both styles of event in Japan ? Because who gts into an Event is FAR more about who you know than it is about Talent or Skill level . And exiting Fights arent about having the two best Fighters Matched up , its about having two ppl that nearly cancell each other out for whatever reason fighting . Watching two SUCKY fighters is just as fun , so long as they both suck equally .

It is certainly not Shotokan, and no real deep stances are ever used. The hands are always up around the head - just like in kickboxing, to be ready to block the round house kicks that are aimed at your head, or knees.

are you kidding me ? Did you just say that the best way to defend your knees with your hands is to keep them by your head ? Did you READ that to yourself before you Posted ?

Like I keep saying, go to kazaa and download the clip. Here's how to find it:

Go into Kazaa, hit the search button, and type in "kyokushin" in the "all" section, not just the video section.

a file will pop up that is 52, 936KB long called "Kyokushinkai vs Kung Fu", the artist is Alan do Nascimento.

Now to the meat of it .

You know of a good Kyoku school that beat up a bad "kung Fu' (whatever THAT means this week) school . Therefore ALL Chinese Martial Arts MUST suck , right ?

Thats the dumbest excuse for "Logic" EVAR .

And the fact that you know something about the GOOD school isnt enough . What do you know about the BAD one ? Like I said , Good Fights are set up by finding ppl of equal level , and its OBVIOUS that the training isnt of Equal levels here . And the fact that some Idiots that SUCK were the ones talking smack is truly Irrelevant . its no reflection on the THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of Hardworking CMA practitioners that Do The Work and keep their Mouths shut .

Many of whom could wipe the floor with your Kyokushin buddy without breaking a sweat .

Fighter > Training > Style .

 

[Judo Tom]

does kyokushin karate have submissions/chokes/armbars or ground fighting?

do you guys practice clinches and takedowns/throws at all?

when you 'spar' is it standing work only or standing and groundwork and what distances do you utilize more?

sorry for all the questions just curious

and kung fu is not worthless. maybe you havent trained or met the right people to help you in that art yet.

good luck

 

[Kane Fan]

does kyokushin karate have submissions/chokes/armbars or ground fighting?

do you guys practice clinches and takedowns/throws at all?

when you 'spar' is it standing work only or standing and groundwork and what distances do you utilize more?

sorry for all the questions just curious

and kung fu is not worthless. maybe you havent trained or met the right people to help you in that art yet.

good luck

I agree, even tho TKD is not a groundfighting style that dosn't mean you can't go to a TKD school where the teacher also has experience in a groundfighting art such as BJJ or Judo or whathaveyou that he also throws in to his classes
it's the same with KungFu etc
but I'd still want to try that Bear Style Kung Fu just to say I had done it cus I like Bears so much : o )
and I think SnakeStyle would help with handspeed so even if you couldn't use any of the techniques in a match/fight (and I think every style has at least afew usefull attacks)

 

[Jacob Creutzfeldt]

This is a common Misconception . "San Da/San Shou" are RULESETS , not SYSTEMS . In fact one of the best San Da fighters that was sent over to Thailand by china was , in fact , a Taijiquan stylist himself .

The techniques used in the San Shou ruleset must be rooted in a Chinese martial art or how would they be learned? Perhaps fighters in the San Shou ruleset come from varied chinese disciplines, but they generally will use the most effective techniques that can be displayed in the ruleset from their art. In the end they are using what they train and applying it to the ruleset to create an 'art with rules'.

 

[Djimbe]

The techniques used in the San Shou ruleset must be rooted in a Chinese martial art or how would they be learned? Perhaps fighters in the San Shou ruleset come from varied chinese disciplines, but they generally will use the most effective techniques that can be displayed in the ruleset from their art. In the end they are using what they train and applying it to the ruleset to create an 'art with rules'.

let me try to relate it to the more popular current trend ...

just like in Modern MMA rules a guy could be a boxer , or a wrestelr , or a BJJ stylist , the San Shou RULES fighter MIGHT be from Taijiquan , Wing Chun , Mantis , Xingyiquan or Baguazhang . They will all still have to wear the Gloves , be restricted to so many Sec on the ground , be allowed to Throw , etc . but their techniques , strategem footwork , etc will all come from their respective arts . do you understand my meaning now ?

 

[Jacob Creutzfeldt]

let me try to relate it to the more popular current trend ...

just like in Modern MMA rules a guy could be a boxer , or a wrestelr , or a BJJ stylist , the San Shou RULES fighter MIGHT be from Taijiquan , Wing Chun , Mantis , Xingyiquan or Baguazhang . They will all still have to wear the Gloves , be restricted to so many Sec on the ground , be allowed to Throw , etc . but their techniques , strategem footwork , etc will all come from their respective arts . do you understand my meaning now ?

I understood your point from the get go. So if someone competes and trains strictly in San Shou for San Shou they must have no style to claim as there own? The sport develops a style in this case and the style doesn't develop the sport. I would call modern MMA a style. Because there is a formalized judging and scoring process doesn't make something not a style. Judo is a style, but has loads of rules attached.

 

[Spanky11]

So did you before you started Style-Whoring .




So what youre BASICALLY saying is that the Promoters travel in the same social circles ? Or even that the same Ppl promote both styles of event in Japan ? Because who gts into an Event is FAR more about who you know than it is about Talent or Skill level . And exiting Fights arent about having the two best Fighters Matched up , its about having two ppl that nearly cancell each other out for whatever reason fighting . Watching two SUCKY fighters is just as fun , so long as they both suck equally .



are you kidding me ? Did you just say that the best way to defend your knees with your hands is to keep them by your head ? Did you READ that to yourself before you Posted ?



Now to the meat of it .

You know of a good Kyoku school that beat up a bad "kung Fu' (whatever THAT means this week) school . Therefore ALL Chinese Martial Arts MUST suck , right ?

Thats the dumbest excuse for "Logic" EVAR .

And the fact that you know something about the GOOD school isnt enough . What do you know about the BAD one ? Like I said , Good Fights are set up by finding ppl of equal level , and its OBVIOUS that the training isnt of Equal levels here . And the fact that some Idiots that SUCK were the ones talking smack is truly Irrelevant . its no reflection on the THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of Hardworking CMA practitioners that Do The Work and keep their Mouths shut .

Many of whom could wipe the floor with your Kyokushin buddy without breaking a sweat .

Fighter > Training > Style .

oh dear...what have I started here? I could pull apart your post, like you did mine, but I really couldn't be bothered. Check out the video, and see it for what its worth - a laugh at traditional martial arts against a more modern style.

As for your quote - "Many of whom could wipe the floor with your Kyokushin buddy without breaking a sweat ". Look around for any info on Akira Masuda. He is the real deal.

 

[gjohnson5]

Diversity. The kung fu guys I've worked with are versed in ways of ending a fight in a few seconds. Those generally involve striking a sensative spot on the body wheather it be a joint or a pressure point. To get at some spots you really need a knife or a spear, and hence knife fighting is an art in kung fu. Obviously in a tournament that has rules this isn't allowed so It's good to know grappling and the palms out style BRR is in to along with the kung fu.

 

[Djimbe]

I understood your point from the get go. So if someone competes and trains strictly in San Shou for San Shou they must have no style to claim as there own?

Actually , Im saying the complete OPPOSITE of that .

look , wether or not the guy KNOWS it or not , the way that San Da players kick , the way that , say Savate players kick , and the way that Muay Thai players throw THE SAME KICK is different .

Why ?

Because of the Base art that they came from .

IGNORING that art , letting its name be Forgotten , etc , dosent erase that fact in the least . A Northern Chinese San Shou camp , wether it likes it or not , is going to fight with some aspects of Xingyi (or whatever) flavour in their combat . They arent going to all of a sudden start kicking like the Thai or the French because they CHOSE to call themselves "San Da School" now . Militetch camp still grapples like Western Wrestling , and Boxes like W. Boxing . They can CALL themselves whatever the hell they like . Thats Ego , and Labelling . Basically just semantics . Whats the flavour of their Movement ? What Principles are their Techniques Rooted in ? THATS what matters .

The sport develops a style in this case and the style doesn't develop the sport. I would call modern MMA a style. Because there is a formalized judging and scoring process doesn't make something not a style.

So WHAT ?

When Team Gracie , American Top Team , Northern Lights Tai Chi , Militetch Camp , and Whatever the hell Sakuraba does all starts to look the same , Train the same , and fight the same , THEN it will be a "Style" . Until that time , its a ruleset , and nothing more .

Judo is a style, but has loads of rules attached.

You cant POSSIBLY compare the two things . Judo's techs were codified by ONE governing body , and taught from ONE wellspring . They , ALL of them come from the same system of JuJutsu . Judo is a style , and RANDORI is a Sport , or rather has a Sportive aspect to it . Even thought they CALL it that , youre not actually JUDGING a "Judo" youre judging a Randori between to compeditors . Its really just bad use of linguistics on the part of MAists , in the end .

 

[Djimbe]

oh dear...what have I started here? I could pull apart your post, like you did mine, but I really couldn't be bothered. Check out the video, and see it for what its worth - a laugh at traditional martial arts against a more modern style.

And actually I did watch you wee vid , and the fact is there was niothing to indicate that either school was more "Traditional" than the other , unless in your book "Traditional" is a codeword for "Sucky" .

One school has good training , the other did not . So what does that say about the style , exactly ? There are LOADS of Muay Thai schools out there , youre telling me ALL of their Students become Tony Jaas ?

Youre KIDDING , right ?

There are shite Boxing Gys , and Wrestling schools too *GHASP*

Sorry to introduce you to reality .

As for your quote - "Many of whom could wipe the floor with your Kyokushin buddy without breaking a sweat ". Look around for any info on Akira Masuda. He is the real deal.

So what ? Hes the baddest man on the planet now ?

No .

Im simply stating that there are DOZENS if not HUNDEREDS of good traditional MA schools in this country alone . And any of them have students that could stand up to anyone that he has trained .

YOU look up Ho Kam Ming , Wang Shu Jiin , David Bond Chan , or Wai Lun Choi . All of whom have full Contact experience above and beyond that that youre used to , and all of whom produce top quality students .

You saw a VIDEO that proves that one SCHOOL and perhaps one TEACHER produces better fighters than another . GOODY FOR YOU . The fact that you think that this says ANYTHING about their STYLE or SYSTEM is SO rediculous as to e laughable . Think upon this before the next time you issue a post calling ANYONE "retard" (as in another , now-closed thread) , will you ?

The fact is that while this particular school might be GREAT the best school in MY hometown might just be Capoiera , and in YOURS it might just be Tai Chi Chuan , and in NYC it just might be Xingyi . You sit around and start making blanket statements like you have and you may make someone miss out on a GREAT teacher and Mentor that was just within their grasp due to YOUR childish stylistic predjudices .

Grow Up , and GET OVER styles .

Teacher > Style

&

Individual > Training > Style .

ALWAYS .


Once again , you Regurgitate the popular as if it were fact , but its obvious that you lack the breath of experience needed to provide yhour own judgements on the issue . I have been involved in the Martial Arts for over 35 years , and The one thing I can tell you is that you cannot tell dedication to your Art by the name of the art itself .

And Ive TOO many times seen the "MMA ToughGuy" get embarrased by the ALLEGED "TKD Fool" .

 

[casualbb]

dudes, y'all are taking this too personally. end the fight, both of ya.

 

[Kane Fan]

can anyone put the vids here so I can download them I dont' have kazaa

 

[Djimbe]

dudes, y'all are taking this too personally. end the fight, both of ya.

I really dont see how , man . Im really just expressing my Opinion on MA , and the guy resorts to Name_calling/Personal Attacks without being able to defend his position on the matters/Issues at hand . I think that considering what was thrown at me I didnt swing back .

 

[gjohnson5]

the guy resorts to Name_calling/Personal Attacks without being able to defend his position on the matters/Issues at hand .

Get used to that...

 

[Djimbe]

Oh THAT part dosent bother me . I mean , when you shine the Light of Truth on someones Illusiory Heroes theyre bound to Buck at you , thats cool . Ive been in MA long enough to know that people tend to put the guys that get on the Mag Covers up on a peadestal wether they deserve it or not - but I dont like being told by a third party that IM the opne taking it badly when Im not even the one getting Personal .

 

[casualbb]

takes two to fight buddy. just don't make "you" statements and it doesn't become a big deal

 

[Djimbe]

The only "You " statements that i made were centered around me asking him NOT to call me a Retard without even having shown any demonstrable Critical Thinking skills himself .

 

[casualbb]

Good grief. The dude says nothing directed at you, and suddenly it's "blah blah, your logic is bad, you have no critical thinking skills, grow up, etc"

now you're making ME argue with you.

Slinky made some dumbass statements as well. Yet it was your involvement that escalated things to an argument.

You have 26 posts, negative karma, and arguments seem to cluster around you like crack addicts to the dealer. And somehow the problem isn't you? Adjust your attitude, and I mean SOON.

 

[Djimbe]

Good grief. The dude says nothing directed at you,

Actually , he DID start in with me . He did so RIGHT here :

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4566481&postcount=7

and suddenly it's "blah blah, your logic is bad, you have no critical thinking skills, grow up, etc"

And when does something have to be aimed directly at me to lack Critical thinking skills ?

The fact is that I consider his posts to be demeaning and damagin to the entire MA community . People come on here asking for help , and he claims that he can spot a good instructor by STYLE , basically , wich is rediculous .

now you're making ME argue with you.

Slinky made some dumbass statements as well. Yet it was your involvement that escalated things to an argument.

You have 26 posts, negative karma, and arguments seem to cluster around you like crack addicts to the dealer. And somehow the problem isn't you? Adjust your attitude, and I mean SOON.

Im not Making you do Anything . I simply sked you how you felt that I was raising the level of the argiment . I dont see why that should make you feel argumentative in any way . I asked you what you saw from your perspective , and to clarify yourself . How is that making you argue ? Im not even saying youre Incorrect ! I agree with you that Im arguing with him , Im just not in agreement with you that :

a) all arguing is bad
b) its unwarranted on my part
c) I was the one Escalating anything . I felt I kept it on the level HE went to .

You know , Argument in and of itself isnt that bad a thing . Its actually HOW you clear the air when there are two conflicting Ideas floating about . The fact is that wed eaither ALL have to be Right - and therefore all know everythign from Birth and therefore not even NEED Msg Boards , or at SOME point someone is going to say SONMETHING that needs correcting . And THEN is when an Argument ensues .

Or is it just preferable to you that the Truth takes a backseat so that there is no "Conflict" - in TEXT - on a Msg board . Should this guy get ripped off , and probably HURT in the future thinking he has the best skills his money can buy just so "Djimbe" dosent argue with "Spanky11" ? or should the two of us Flesh ourt whatever it is here , Popular Viewpoint or NOT , and when the lad has all the information at his disposal he can make an INFORMED choice on how to spend YEARS of his life and TENS OF THOUSANDS of his dollars ?

You see , thats the level of descision that "What School Should I End Up At" reaches . And I , as a CONSUMER , think that Im getting ripped off by anything that dosent best meet my needs .

YOU YOURSELF said it before , there are MANY things that a person can be looking to get out of MAs , and there os NO way to tell what that is by asking a question like "WHat Style is Better" because Ive seen all the variants YOU postes WITHIN THE SAME STYLE ! I know Taiji places that are REALLY about FIGHTING , I know ones ALL ABOUT "Chi" ort whatever , I know ones that are all about preserving the History and crap , and thats one System - but different TEACHERS . In fact , Systems have nearly nothign to DO with the focus of the class . Its the Trainers .

You ALSO should realise that there wasnt any real "Back And Forth" on this crap . He made ONE insulting post (see above Link) , and I responded , and FAR more respectfully than most people would have . but yeah , if youre goiong to call me a "Retard" yould better be prepared to prove that your I.Q. is higher than mine .

 

[casualbb]

1. Arguing the way you do it is bad
2. you take things too personally
3. There were at least 3 people the dude insulted... you were the only one whose wounded pride ended up dominating this thread

At this point I don't care anymore. Let it be, don't respond in kind, discuss and dont' attack.