ketogenic diets- advice please

[Max Expansion]

hey guys i want to drop like 10 pounds of stubborn fat

i am going to increase my cardio to 4 days a week- but diet wise i was wondering how helpful guys had found going into ketosis to be

i have a few questions.

1. is true ketosis (where you cut out almost all carbs) notably more effective than just low carb dieting.

2. is it true that you can eat as much protein as you want when in a state of ketosis

3. is it it a bad idea to have things like cheese when on ketosis, even though they dont contain carbs.

4. what can one take as a supplement for constipation and to increase dietry fibre, which wont effect the state of ketosis- (i was thinking along the lines of a fibre pill if such a thing existed)

5. what are peoples thoughts about artificial sweetners and diet soft drinks when in ketosis- will they slow down the fat loss

cheers guys to anyone who can help me out

 

[10001110101]

If you've never done ketosis, you are missing out. IMO, It is, hands down, THE most effective way to burn fat while sparing muscle, that being said, it has its drawbacks.

Drawback #1 - Working out loses all its flavor. Everything is a struggle in the gym and it pretty much takes all the joy out of working out. Training is tough even with a targeted ketogenic diet where pre and post workout carbs are allowed.

#2 - You will miss carbs.
#3 - You will not want to eat, will have zero appetite.
#4 - Leaves me feeling foggy and emotionally flat especially in the beginning.

That being said it is very effective, even for short periods of time. I'm ectomorphic but I do have some stubborn fat around my waist and love handle area that i was able to get rid of with ketosis in just 2 weeks (approx 7 pounds, strength was IMPROVED following ketosis).

here's some answers to your questions.

1. The type of ketogenic diet they use for epileptics is not recommended. That protocol calls for something like 92% of your calories to come from fats with 7% from protein, and <1% from carbs. Something like 80% fat cals and 20% protein is best for someone trying to spare muscle and burn fat.

2. Eating as much protein is not a good idea but you can eat as much meat as you want (red meat, bacon, fish, eggs, chicken anything that doesnt have carbs really (i.e, beef jerky). Like i said around 20% protein is good if you are trying to keep muscle and train while on the diet.

3. Cheese, now cheese supposedly doesn't have any carbs, but it actually does have a very small amount of lactose i believe. And for some reason it always reduces my level of ketosis when i eat it. Not to mention the fact that if you are prone, cheese will constipate you like nothing in this world. That being said I often crave cheese and do not limit my intake of it during ketosis.

4. I didn't end up needing any fiber for my first round of ketosis, but yes fiber pills do exist in chewable and pill form (metamucil makes one) and these are recommended as the drink mixes (i.e. citrucel, metamucil) have artificial sweetener, maltodextrin, and citric acid and will generally make you feel like shit during keto.

5. Artificial sweeteners, citric acid, etc. I wouldn't worry too much about them "slowing down" ketosis, they will temporarily reduce the amount of ketosis but it's not significant enough to affect your goals over a period of a couple weeks or more. You will avoid these things however, because aspartame can trigger the insulin response, and without any sugar being added to your bloodstream you will instantly feel the effects (no energy, mental fog). I only drink tea and water while in keto, once i had a diet cherry vanilla dr. pepper, never again. Also if you are trying to transition into ketosis, drinking diet drinks will only make everything much harder for you.

Cardio will be more difficult in ketosis, i recommend doing it for about 30 mins or so but reduce your resistance or speed (i.e. if you run on the treadmill at 6 mph reduce it to 5 or 4) because you won't have the same intensity, you can actually do lower intensity cardio for a longer period of time on keto however. Honestly I didn't even need to do cardio as much in keto, i only did it maybe 2x a week and had great results.

I recommend that you get Ketostix or an off-brand of ketone urinalysis strips, they will let you know if your diet is appropriate and what level of ketosis you are in, don't let the level bother you too much as it switches depending on whether or not you just ate a high fat meal etc. but use it to check periodically to make sure you are in ketosis. After you get used to the diet you can really tell whether your are in keto just by feel generally, but at first the strips help, but they are not 100 percent necessary.

Also if you are going to do it for more than 2 weeks, consider a targeted ketogenic diet (TKD) , or a cyclical ketogenic diet (CKD), both allow carbs at selected times to maintain workout intensity (somewhat) and your sanity. Search for them in the diet section on these boards you will find tons of info.

Hope this helps.

 

[timtim]

If you've never done ketosis, you are missing out. IMO, It is, hands down, THE most effective way to burn fat while sparing muscle, that being said, it has its drawbacks.

Drawback #1 - Working out loses all its flavor. Everything is a struggle in the gym and it pretty much takes all the joy out of working out. Training is tough even with a targeted ketogenic diet where pre and post workout carbs are allowed.

#2 - You will miss carbs.
#3 - You will not want to eat, will have zero appetite.
#4 - Leaves me feeling foggy and emotionally flat especially in the beginning.

That being said it is very effective, even for short periods of time. I'm ectomorphic but I do have some stubborn fat around my waist and love handle area that i was able to get rid of with ketosis in just 2 weeks (approx 7 pounds, strength was IMPROVED following ketosis).

here's some answers to your questions.

1. The type of ketogenic diet they use for epileptics is not recommended. That protocol calls for something like 92% of your calories to come from fats with 7% from protein, and <1% from carbs. Something like 80% fat cals and 20% protein is best for someone trying to spare muscle and burn fat.

2. Eating as much protein is not a good idea but you can eat as much meat as you want (red meat, bacon, fish, eggs, chicken anything that doesnt have carbs really (i.e, beef jerky). Like i said around 20% protein is good if you are trying to keep muscle and train while on the diet.

3. Cheese, now cheese supposedly doesn't have any carbs, but it actually does have a very small amount of lactose i believe. And for some reason it always reduces my level of ketosis when i eat it. Not to mention the fact that if you are prone, cheese will constipate you like nothing in this world. That being said I often crave cheese and do not limit my intake of it during ketosis.

4. I didn't end up needing any fiber for my first round of ketosis, but yes fiber pills do exist in chewable and pill form (metamucil makes one) and these are recommended as the drink mixes (i.e. citrucel, metamucil) have artificial sweetener, maltodextrin, and citric acid and will generally make you feel like shit during keto.

5. Artificial sweeteners, citric acid, etc. I wouldn't worry too much about them "slowing down" ketosis, they will temporarily reduce the amount of ketosis but it's not significant enough to affect your goals over a period of a couple weeks or more. You will avoid these things however, because aspartame can trigger the insulin response, and without any sugar being added to your bloodstream you will instantly feel the effects (no energy, mental fog). I only drink tea and water while in keto, once i had a diet cherry vanilla dr. pepper, never again. Also if you are trying to transition into ketosis, drinking diet drinks will only make everything much harder for you.

Cardio will be more difficult in ketosis, i recommend doing it for about 30 mins or so but reduce your resistance or speed (i.e. if you run on the treadmill at 6 mph reduce it to 5 or 4) because you won't have the same intensity, you can actually do lower intensity cardio for a longer period of time on keto however. Honestly I didn't even need to do cardio as much in keto, i only did it maybe 2x a week and had great results.

I recommend that you get Ketostix or an off-brand of ketone urinalysis strips, they will let you know if your diet is appropriate and what level of ketosis you are in, don't let the level bother you too much as it switches depending on whether or not you just ate a high fat meal etc. but use it to check periodically to make sure you are in ketosis. After you get used to the diet you can really tell whether your are in keto just by feel generally, but at first the strips help, but they are not 100 percent necessary.

Also if you are going to do it for more than 2 weeks, consider a targeted ketogenic diet (TKD) , or a cyclical ketogenic diet (CKD), both allow carbs at selected times to maintain workout intensity (somewhat) and your sanity. Search for them in the diet section on these boards you will find tons of info.

Hope this helps.

good info there. k to you.

ckd's are pretty outdated now, afew years ago they were the big thing. the info above is solid stuff. i have done ckds for years. now using carb cycling and the results are better than my ckd days.

 

[holy ghost]

www.c-k-d.com

got that from a mod on antoher site

bring a snickers bar to the gym with you incase you feel woozy bro

your blood sugar gets low on CKD diets

 

[st8grad]

Make sure to keep your fats up at like 1.5-1.8g per pound of bodyweight. You will feel weaker in the initial two weeks, but then should get a nice surge of energy after that. Cardio and lifting will become easier and you actually will notice better performance in cardio than when using carbs as a main source of energy. I don't think you need to hit ketosis for it to be effective at all, however it does act as a good primer to beginning more of a low carb eating plan.

Most people feel shitty because their fat intake is not high enough. Basically they do a high protein - low fat - low carb diet and that is stupid.

Fats are a better source of energy even though carbs are a more efficient source.

Check out some recommendations from Charles Poliquin, Johnny Bowden, Cassandra Forsythe and Jeff Volek.

Volek is at UCONN and I believe has studies that prove low carb performance to be superior to higher carb.

For lifting, I never felt a difference in strength or endurance because honestly lifters don't use that much glycogen anyway.

You WILL notice a great improvement in your lipid profile as well. I would get your blood drawn before and then like 2 months into it. Your jaw will hit the floor with the improvements.

 

[Max Expansion]

wow- what an amazing response

a few points of interest

1. i was really interested in your observations about lactase in cheese slowing ketosis- also cheese is very calorific, so i guess i should just keep clear of it a bit.

2. thanks for the points about the fibre- however now that i am going easy on the cheese (a little mozzarella once a day or so) i doubt ill have so much trouble

3. stay off the artificial sweetners-= point taken

the one thing i didnt totally understand from your very helpful answer, was the ratios of fat to protein. you said that i could eat as much meat as i want, but that you shouldnt have so much protein or something. you also suggested that a diet of 80 percent fat to 20 percent protein was good.
wow, how am i going to get that kinda fat content in my diet.
at the moment for lie the last 4 days i have been going quite easy on the fats.

my diet at the moment

morning- eggs and egg whites and lean ham
lunch- grilled fish, eggs whites, ham- extra virgin olive oil
dinner- steak, perhaps some tuna etc- all covered in olive oik

ive been going easy on the fat, so where should i get the rest of my fats from- i mean i guess im getting quite a bit from all the olive oil, but without a doubt the majority of my diet is mostly lean protein

any ideas

cheers

If you've never done ketosis, you are missing out. IMO, It is, hands down, THE most effective way to burn fat while sparing muscle, that being said, it has its drawbacks.

Drawback #1 - Working out loses all its flavor. Everything is a struggle in the gym and it pretty much takes all the joy out of working out. Training is tough even with a targeted ketogenic diet where pre and post workout carbs are allowed.

#2 - You will miss carbs.
#3 - You will not want to eat, will have zero appetite.
#4 - Leaves me feeling foggy and emotionally flat especially in the beginning.

That being said it is very effective, even for short periods of time. I'm ectomorphic but I do have some stubborn fat around my waist and love handle area that i was able to get rid of with ketosis in just 2 weeks (approx 7 pounds, strength was IMPROVED following ketosis).

here's some answers to your questions.

1. The type of ketogenic diet they use for epileptics is not recommended. That protocol calls for something like 92% of your calories to come from fats with 7% from protein, and <1% from carbs. Something like 80% fat cals and 20% protein is best for someone trying to spare muscle and burn fat.

2. Eating as much protein is not a good idea but you can eat as much meat as you want (red meat, bacon, fish, eggs, chicken anything that doesnt have carbs really (i.e, beef jerky). Like i said around 20% protein is good if you are trying to keep muscle and train while on the diet.

3. Cheese, now cheese supposedly doesn't have any carbs, but it actually does have a very small amount of lactose i believe. And for some reason it always reduces my level of ketosis when i eat it. Not to mention the fact that if you are prone, cheese will constipate you like nothing in this world. That being said I often crave cheese and do not limit my intake of it during ketosis.

4. I didn't end up needing any fiber for my first round of ketosis, but yes fiber pills do exist in chewable and pill form (metamucil makes one) and these are recommended as the drink mixes (i.e. citrucel, metamucil) have artificial sweetener, maltodextrin, and citric acid and will generally make you feel like shit during keto.

5. Artificial sweeteners, citric acid, etc. I wouldn't worry too much about them "slowing down" ketosis, they will temporarily reduce the amount of ketosis but it's not significant enough to affect your goals over a period of a couple weeks or more. You will avoid these things however, because aspartame can trigger the insulin response, and without any sugar being added to your bloodstream you will instantly feel the effects (no energy, mental fog). I only drink tea and water while in keto, once i had a diet cherry vanilla dr. pepper, never again. Also if you are trying to transition into ketosis, drinking diet drinks will only make everything much harder for you.

Cardio will be more difficult in ketosis, i recommend doing it for about 30 mins or so but reduce your resistance or speed (i.e. if you run on the treadmill at 6 mph reduce it to 5 or 4) because you won't have the same intensity, you can actually do lower intensity cardio for a longer period of time on keto however. Honestly I didn't even need to do cardio as much in keto, i only did it maybe 2x a week and had great results.

I recommend that you get Ketostix or an off-brand of ketone urinalysis strips, they will let you know if your diet is appropriate and what level of ketosis you are in, don't let the level bother you too much as it switches depending on whether or not you just ate a high fat meal etc. but use it to check periodically to make sure you are in ketosis. After you get used to the diet you can really tell whether your are in keto just by feel generally, but at first the strips help, but they are not 100 percent necessary.

Also if you are going to do it for more than 2 weeks, consider a targeted ketogenic diet (TKD) , or a cyclical ketogenic diet (CKD), both allow carbs at selected times to maintain workout intensity (somewhat) and your sanity. Search for them in the diet section on these boards you will find tons of info.

Hope this helps.

 

[mattdan]

All very good info above, buy your mileage may vary. Personally I feel great on keto and think it's the best way overall.

Regarding the fat intake. If you don't get enough fat, you can get protein poisoning - aka rabbit fever (because rabbits are so low in fat).

Plenty of fat intake, mostly healthy fats.

 

[st8grad]

Yeah, you have to get a lot of fat on that diet. I guess you have to be somewhat careful with the high protein so that it is not converted to energy.

You may want to rethink the fiber and do it anyway. Cheese or not, you will be more backed up that usual.

wow- what an amazing response

a few points of interest

1. i was really interested in your observations about lactase in cheese slowing ketosis- also cheese is very calorific, so i guess i should just keep clear of it a bit.

2. thanks for the points about the fibre- however now that i am going easy on the cheese (a little mozzarella once a day or so) i doubt ill have so much trouble

3. stay off the artificial sweetners-= point taken

the one thing i didnt totally understand from your very helpful answer, was the ratios of fat to protein. you said that i could eat as much meat as i want, but that you shouldnt have so much protein or something. you also suggested that a diet of 80 percent fat to 20 percent protein was good.
wow, how am i going to get that kinda fat content in my diet.
at the moment for lie the last 4 days i have been going quite easy on the fats.

my diet at the moment

morning- eggs and egg whites and lean ham
lunch- grilled fish, eggs whites, ham- extra virgin olive oil
dinner- steak, perhaps some tuna etc- all covered in olive oik

ive been going easy on the fat, so where should i get the rest of my fats from- i mean i guess im getting quite a bit from all the olive oil, but without a doubt the majority of my diet is mostly lean protein

any ideas

cheers

 

[10001110101]

Basically what I mean is avoid lean meats (i.e. turkey, tuna etc.) and if you eat them, make sure you have fat to go along with them at a meal, high protein/low fat meals are a no-no.

the comment about rabbit poisoning is correct, the native americans found that if they ate too much rabbit (since they subsisted on a meat only diet) that they got sick because it was a lean meat, they weren't getting enough fat and so they would lose ketotic efficiency as you can really only burn so much of your own fat at once, without an external fat source you feel ill.

Stick with the fattier meats as much as possible, chicken and fish are good, but make sure you include some red meat in there (ground beef is excellent, and i mean the cheap high-fat stuff, not ground round or sirloin). and if you don't get enough fat from your meat from a meal... just take a shot or two of olive oil and chase that with some omega-3's, btw this is a great opportunity to include plenty of healthy fats as well.

the thing you need to remember is, if you start feeling tired this means you need to eat, your appetite is no longer your clue to eat (well it is, but it's less noticeable) so eat if you are tired and don't know why, trust me, you'll feel better.

 

[mattdan]

1000 knows his keto.

I'd add that if you get an uncontrollable sweet tooth, the low carb sugar free candies aren't bad at all these days. Only in moderation tho, they not only aren't exactly health food, they can give you the runs.

 

[Max Expansion]

im eating a good sized steak every day, plenty of italian ham with the fat left on, and then lots of fish all covered in extra virgin olive oil.

however, the only real source of fat i am getting is the olive oil. i stopped doing the cheese and cream style stuff as i thought it would be too calorific or would impede ketosis due to the lactase.

what other good sources of fat are there apart from the flax seed oils and olive oils.

should i really be staying away from the cheese- i seem to have stalled diet wise and yet i am being seriously strict and doing plenty of cardio

cheers 1000 for all the advice (and to the others)

Basically what I mean is avoid lean meats (i.e. turkey, tuna etc.) and if you eat them, make sure you have fat to go along with them at a meal, high protein/low fat meals are a no-no.

the comment about rabbit poisoning is correct, the native americans found that if they ate too much rabbit (since they subsisted on a meat only diet) that they got sick because it was a lean meat, they weren't getting enough fat and so they would lose ketotic efficiency as you can really only burn so much of your own fat at once, without an external fat source you feel ill.

Stick with the fattier meats as much as possible, chicken and fish are good, but make sure you include some red meat in there (ground beef is excellent, and i mean the cheap high-fat stuff, not ground round or sirloin). and if you don't get enough fat from your meat from a meal... just take a shot or two of olive oil and chase that with some omega-3's, btw this is a great opportunity to include plenty of healthy fats as well.

the thing you need to remember is, if you start feeling tired this means you need to eat, your appetite is no longer your clue to eat (well it is, but it's less noticeable) so eat if you are tired and don't know why, trust me, you'll feel better.

 

[mattdan]

Cheese is fine as long as you don't over do it. Remember, as long as you don't exceed your carb goal you're fine no matter where they came from. Cheese does have some carbs. On days you work out and/or cardio you can up the carbs a bit.

It's really important to not get bored on the diet.

If the cheese plugs you up, just take some sugar free fiber with plenty of water.

 

[Max Expansion]

so is the reason that the atkins diet suggests one limits the amount of cheese, due to the calory content rather than the effect it will have on ketosis.

the kind of cheese i eat is full fat, almost no carb cheese, like real english cheddar and real buffallo milk moza.

this stuff contain like no carbs so by the sound of it it should be ok.

i was just concerned about something 1000 said about lactic acid in cheese impeding ketosis

cheers

Cheese is fine as long as you don't over do it. Remember, as long as you don't exceed your carb goal you're fine no matter where they came from. Cheese does have some carbs. On days you work out and/or cardio you can up the carbs a bit.

It's really important to not get bored on the diet.

If the cheese plugs you up, just take some sugar free fiber with plenty of water.

 

[mattdan]

Full fat cheese is the way to go - period. Never eat low fat cheese.

Have you read the Atkins book? I did and I really don't remember reading that, but it's been several years since I read it.

It gets tricky to keep the diet from getting boring so the bottom line is do whatever works for you.

Also - go to your local drug store and get some ketosis sticks. That is the definitive way to make sure you're not eating too many carbs. As long as they show you're in ketosis, you're fine.

 

[BigCracker]

If you've never done ketosis, you are missing out. IMO, It is, hands down, THE most effective way to burn fat while sparing muscle, that being said, it has its drawbacks.

Drawback #1 - Working out loses all its flavor. Everything is a struggle in the gym and it pretty much takes all the joy out of working out. Training is tough even with a targeted ketogenic diet where pre and post workout carbs are allowed.

#2 - You will miss carbs.
#3 - You will not want to eat, will have zero appetite.
#4 - Leaves me feeling foggy and emotionally flat especially in the beginning.

That being said it is very effective, even for short periods of time. I'm ectomorphic but I do have some stubborn fat around my waist and love handle area that i was able to get rid of with ketosis in just 2 weeks (approx 7 pounds, strength was IMPROVED following ketosis).

here's some answers to your questions.

1. The type of ketogenic diet they use for epileptics is not recommended. That protocol calls for something like 92% of your calories to come from fats with 7% from protein, and <1% from carbs. Something like 80% fat cals and 20% protein is best for someone trying to spare muscle and burn fat.

2. Eating as much protein is not a good idea but you can eat as much meat as you want (red meat, bacon, fish, eggs, chicken anything that doesnt have carbs really (i.e, beef jerky). Like i said around 20% protein is good if you are trying to keep muscle and train while on the diet.

3. Cheese, now cheese supposedly doesn't have any carbs, but it actually does have a very small amount of lactose i believe. And for some reason it always reduces my level of ketosis when i eat it. Not to mention the fact that if you are prone, cheese will constipate you like nothing in this world. That being said I often crave cheese and do not limit my intake of it during ketosis.

4. I didn't end up needing any fiber for my first round of ketosis, but yes fiber pills do exist in chewable and pill form (metamucil makes one) and these are recommended as the drink mixes (i.e. citrucel, metamucil) have artificial sweetener, maltodextrin, and citric acid and will generally make you feel like shit during keto.

5. Artificial sweeteners, citric acid, etc. I wouldn't worry too much about them "slowing down" ketosis, they will temporarily reduce the amount of ketosis but it's not significant enough to affect your goals over a period of a couple weeks or more. You will avoid these things however, because aspartame can trigger the insulin response, and without any sugar being added to your bloodstream you will instantly feel the effects (no energy, mental fog). I only drink tea and water while in keto, once i had a diet cherry vanilla dr. pepper, never again. Also if you are trying to transition into ketosis, drinking diet drinks will only make everything much harder for you.

Cardio will be more difficult in ketosis, i recommend doing it for about 30 mins or so but reduce your resistance or speed (i.e. if you run on the treadmill at 6 mph reduce it to 5 or 4) because you won't have the same intensity, you can actually do lower intensity cardio for a longer period of time on keto however. Honestly I didn't even need to do cardio as much in keto, i only did it maybe 2x a week and had great results.

I recommend that you get Ketostix or an off-brand of ketone urinalysis strips, they will let you know if your diet is appropriate and what level of ketosis you are in, don't let the level bother you too much as it switches depending on whether or not you just ate a high fat meal etc. but use it to check periodically to make sure you are in ketosis. After you get used to the diet you can really tell whether your are in keto just by feel generally, but at first the strips help, but they are not 100 percent necessary.

Also if you are going to do it for more than 2 weeks, consider a targeted ketogenic diet (TKD) , or a cyclical ketogenic diet (CKD), both allow carbs at selected times to maintain workout intensity (somewhat) and your sanity. Search for them in the diet section on these boards you will find tons of info.

Hope this helps.

Welp, no real need for me to chime in here. Who the fuck is this guy? He needs to post up more often. Good 411.

All I have to add is that there is a book I recommend called "Sliced" by Negrita Jayde that is not only an excellent source of 411 for bodybuilding nutrition and the different phases of the dieting process, it also has a cycle carb diet that seems to be much more bodybuilder-friendly. It actually modifies the CKD where you go low carbs for 3 days (in order to get into ketosis) and is followed by 3 moderate carb intake days. Advantages are that you won't feel like shit in the gym as much as with the CKD and you can schedule it so you don't work on the days that you really feel like shit. My tolerance for assholes in the workplace is minimal on low carbs, so if I can schedule my diet in a way that I only feel like shit on my days of from work life is much easier.

 

[Max Expansion]

yeah the reply was sick- definatley one im going to remember

i guess perhaps i have been going about my diet the wrong way. i was trying to kinda restrict the calories. so i was eating like 90 percent lean meet, ham, chicken etc, with a fair amount of olive oil- but i wasnt really eating much in the way of fat.

i was going easy on the butter and stuff, and completely cut out the cheese, as i thought what is the point of doing something so calorific when one is already cutting carbs almost completely. i know that fat fuels ketosis, but full fat cheese like italian creamy mozarella and british chedder and parmasan are so calorific, it just seemed dumb.

i guess my question is whether i would benefit from having this kind of full fat, yet very calorific dairy in my diet. is cream cheese, cheddar and parmasan the way to go. (ps i also read that cheese can stall ketosis)

any opinions

 

[Nelson Montana]

I didn't read the whole thread and maybe should wait until I have the time to elaborate, but I think the keto diet is horseshit. It's very unhealthy and not very effective. Of course someone will always say IT WORKED FOR ME. But if it worked it was most likely due to eating less calories and not being in ketosis (which is catabolic).

Anyone ever see the Ronnie Coleman video where he's on the keto diet and eating just chicken breasts -- with barbacue sauce! He obvioulsy overlooked the fact that BBQ sauce is 90% sugar. But hey, he looked awesome! Does that mean the keto diet works? No. It means the training and drugs and genetics and high protein lower calorie intake worked.

I know this won't be a popular answer because it's natural to think that the next approach is the one that will work. And if it's based on a complicated system and you have the will power to do it the hope and belief is that it must work. And it will. But lots of ways will work. Thousands of guys have gotten more ripped than you'll ever hope to be without going into ketosis. Being in ketosis is unnecessary and ultimately not preferable, but I'm sure you want to follow this through so I wish you the best of luck.

 

[BigCracker]

Nelson is right. I think it's better to surf right along the edge of actual ketosis a few days max before consuming a maintenance level of carbs a few days. By bouncing back and forth like this you will spare more muscle and after a few practice runs you will be able to time your weight loss by the week. Conventional diets never got me the peeled look needed to win a show. Once I dialed in cycling in and out of ketosis not only could I time my weight loss, but I learned how to control my water weight in a way that I could be as dry as I needed to be on contest day. Basically I could time myself to look my best on Saturday AM's (which is usually when pre judging is)every week, week after week. I've had other guys follow this diet and it eliminated a lot of the guesswork in peaking on contest day. I'm still amazed how some guys will diet their asses off for 12 weeks and the last week before the show they'll do this pre-contest voodoo of sodium loading/depletion, carb depletion/loading, diuretics, etc. By doing this I feel they are just rolling the dice with their hard work and hoping to get a 7 or 11. Personally I want better odds than that as opposed to hoping some hocus pocus type shit makes me look my best when I need to. After doing shows where I looked better 3 days later, I felt that I needed to focus on looking my absolute best when I needed to because how you look the days before or after the show doesn't mean a thing.

 

[mattdan]

Sorry Nelson but this is the one time I'm going to flat out disagree.

Keto works - period.

The real reason Americans are so fat is not fat - it's sugar, white flour and processed foods.

Atkins did NOT have it all right. He made mistakes for sure. If you want to really fill in the holes and understand keto better, read sugarbusters.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Sorry Nelson but this is the one time I'm going to flat out disagree.

Keto works - period.

The real reason Americans are so fat is not fat - it's sugar, white flour and processed foods.

Atkins did NOT have it all right. He made mistakes for sure. If you want to really fill in the holes and understand keto better, read sugarbusters.

I never said it didn't work and I never said people don't get fat from sugar so there's no disagreement.

 

[10001110101]

I agree w/Mattdan.

Keto diets are hard for some people because they do not fully commit. Honestly for me it was always best when I was at almost ZERO carbs. Also people aren't honest with themselves about stuff like diet soda and whatnot, and will unwittingly fuck with their own ketosis. Diet soda and anything with citric acid is actually WORSE than a small amount of carbs. And BBQ sauce, depending on the type may have 1-3 grams of carbs which to be honest doesn't have much of an effect, I mean I use mayonnaise which has corn syrup, ketchup which has sugar, lots of things during ketosis that have almost no effect.

I dont know what it is about cheese, it has almost no carbs but something about it just seems to make ketosis harder, that being said I include a decent amount of cheese of the full fat variety.

and RED MEAT is THE BEST FOOD for ketosis. (eggs and bacon are probably the two second best, my breakfast everymorning is 4 sunny-side up eggs and 4 strips of bacon) Cheap 77/23 ground beef will never treat you wrong in ketosis. get your fill. I have spent a lot of time monitoring my levels and what effects various meals have on them. Best way to trick out your ketosis is to skip a meal, then eat a hamburger (no bun of course) in fact Hardee's (Carl's Jr.) low-carb burgers (it's a burger with everything but the bun) are perfect if you are out of the house. Basically you get your body calorie deprived, throw all these fats at it, it reacts by breaking them down and carries that on until you start to eat carbs again. I use this method to get in the deep purple (+160mg/dl) on the ketostix. Granted you should probably stay somewhere in the middle pink or light purple area.

And for people who aren't energetic in the gym, you can get over this, eat red meat before you work out, make sure you get some water and just push yourself. You'd be surprised. I've even broken PR's while in ketosis. It is downright effective if you know what you're doing.

Listen to your body, when you eat too much carbs or eat too fast acting of carbs in the wrong context you will know it because you will feel lethargic, then as you switch back you get a nauseous headache shit feeling that fades for me in about an hour. You will know when you are breaking ketosis and when you are reentering. The worst experience I ever had during ketosis was taking a fiber supp (metamucil) afterwords i read the label, it has citric acid, aspartame, and maltodextrin listed as ingredients, i thought I was going to pass out. once again Artificial sweeteners, citric acid, and the like are the absolute worst things you can put in your body during ketosis IMO. If you take fiber supps, make sure these aren't included, personally I never needed them, but took them as precaution only, I no longer do.

TKD's this is really true as you will break ketosis or at least severely reduce it when you drink your PWO carbs, then it can be rough as your body switches back, something you just get used to though, I do recommend TKD completely as it gives you plenty of power for heavy lifts (at least for your major lifts at the beginning of your workouts).

All of that being said, keto is not necessary, you can get ripped on any reduced calorie diet (esp. if you're using anabolic androgenic steroids, T3, and Clenbuterol ), but for me its about five hundred times more enjoyable and easier than any conventional diet that leaves you starving and fantasizing about your next meal, especially when raw unprocessed carbs are not the mainstream, but ground beef is plentiful. Plus you may find no need for any fat burning supps, thermogenics, eca - ephedrine - caffeine - aspirin - ephedrine - caffeine - aspirin or any of that crap which so many people end up resorting to when they could just do keto.

Eat foods that most calories come from fat and drink water. less than 20g carbs (as close to zero as you can get). No diet soda. Tea or coffee is fine (not the shit you buy in the store, i mean real tea like the brits drink and BLACK COFFEE.) but you might find you don't even need caffeine because of all the extra energy you have.

Sorry that was long. It's this damn ketosis gives me all this focus and energy!

ps. keto diets have been shown to improve blood lipid profiles when healthy fats are consumed, have been used by the medical community for years to control epilepsy symptoms (often having a permanent curative effect) and are being studied currently for their anti-depressant effects.

 

[10001110101]

im eating a good sized steak every day, plenty of italian ham with the fat left on, and then lots of fish all covered in extra virgin olive oil.

however, the only real source of fat i am getting is the olive oil. i stopped doing the cheese and cream style stuff as i thought it would be too calorific or would impede ketosis due to the lactase.

I dont see how you are concluding that you only get the fat from the olive oil. Steak is plenty fatty (depending on the cut), ham is plenty fatty, many types of fish are fatty.

Fat has 9 calories per gram, carbs and pro only have 4, it must only be the largest constituent on a calorie basis, not by raw material. For example 75/25 ground beef even though it is 75% lean meat and 25% fat still gets 60% of its calories from fat.

 

[Max Expansion]

so if i upped my red meat, i woudlnt need to go crazy on the cheese then to get my fat content.

cheers (or should i say cheese)

I dont see how you are concluding that you only get the fat from the olive oil. Steak is plenty fatty (depending on the cut), ham is plenty fatty, many types of fish are fatty.

Fat has 9 calories per gram, carbs and pro only have 4, it must only be the largest constituent on a calorie basis, not by raw material. For example 75/25 ground beef even though it is 75% lean meat and 25% fat still gets 60% of its calories from fat.

 

[Triple-G]

Keto works

best for people who are *not* working out. The average chump is not fat because of carbs but because of excess carbs. And carbs can induce overeating, sugar cravings, and the body is very efficient in converting glucose into fat. Eliminating the carbs can help to regain a normal appetite. Who has ever heard of protein cravings?

For bodybuilders ketosis happens on its own after an intense workout if you just limit your carbs somewhat. Here low carb is fine for dieting but ketosis is unnecessary.

Testing for ketosis with urine stripes is helpful to those who never heard of carbs and protein and fat before. Most people have no clue. If they do Atkins and use this test stripes they get feedback about how well they are doing in being able to know which food contains carbs. It however does not indiciate that you are actually losing fat.

 

[Max Expansion]

I dont see how you are concluding that you only get the fat from the olive oil. Steak is plenty fatty (depending on the cut), ham is plenty fatty, many types of fish are fatty.

Fat has 9 calories per gram, carbs and pro only have 4, it must only be the largest constituent on a calorie basis, not by raw material. For example 75/25 ground beef even though it is 75% lean meat and 25% fat still gets 60% of its calories from fat.

mate that is really helpful- i assumed that most meat and protein was lean, ie protein, unless it was clearly fatty or had marbling.

so what is the fat content of something like smoked salmon.

these are the kinds of things i like to eat

steak
italian smoked ham
chicken
tuna

salad with olive oil

full fat italian mozzarella
cheddar cheese
cream cheese

is this enough stuff with a high fat content

cheers

 

[Max Expansion]

one more thing dude, what are your thoughts on caffeine, as in an espresso

will it effect ketosis

also alchohol, if its zero carbs, is it ok to have the odd drink of vodka (even though it will slightly impede weightloss as it gets broken down first) will it effect the state of ketosis

cheers

 

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i suggest going somewhere like nutritiondata.com anytime you have a query about nutrition content of what you're eating, after a few checks you'll have a pretty good idea about the basic foods and what they're composed of, which is knowledge you'll carry into the rest of your life and will improve your eating permanently, as you'll know what's in your food without having to look at a nutrition chart.

i would stay away from high doses of caffeine such as in espresso, but it's something i haven't really tested too much in personal experience, try it out, see how you feel, caffeine can affect your metabolism and could possibly cause hypoglycemia and rebound cravings for sugar (i'm not 100 percent sure about this, so see how it works for you)

the problem with alcohol is that it almost always contains carbs (even vodka) and to be honest you might get proper pissed off a drink or two, sometimes drinking in ketosis i tend to act irresponsibly as if i'm a different person, but sometimes i'm fine, these are just my experiences so you need to figure out what works for you. I will tell you this, every time i drank in ketosis i felt like i wasted an entire day or two of dieting, it adversely effects your lipolysis for an extended period of time because of the extensive processing that alcohol goes through in your liver. i dunno, i stay away from the sauce on keto...

this is probably the worst part about keto to me, generally what i do is give myself one day/night every week where i drink a little and have some carbs just to act like a normal sociable person, it helps keep you sane and makes you not seem like a wacko on some crazy diet to your friends and family. for example last keto for me fell on the fourth of july and i had a hamburger a few beers and a bourbon and coke (not diet) i got pretty sloshed i think mostly from the crazy insulin ups and downs from what i was doing but it was good to keep me in the real world i suppose.