IT jobs...are the gonna last for ever?

[out_at_sea]

I used to have my own business which I sold it 3 months ago...got tired of it and wanted to travel and kick back for a while.....I went to Europe for two months and now I have to start doing something in terms of jobs ....I thought of buying another business....but i would like to get some feedback fro those who have knowledge about IT field.


I have little knowledge about IT jobs and as I can see these jobs seem to be in hihg demand....

Is the market ever gonna be saturated with so many IT jobs?

What does it take to get into IT field in terms of education?

 

[SoreArms]

There's already a bit of saturation

about 5 years ago, an MCSE would have payed major bank, now it is like a requirement for some jobs.

The other problem is that you have to keep upgrading your knowledge as systems change. You can't jsut learn what's in use today and roll with it, you will be obsolete in a few years.

But if you like to keep learning and are into technology, it's cool.

I'm down with IT.

 

[Razorguns]

start an online casino with your IT skills.

sit back in a nice remote island and watch profits just soar in.

Can you THINK of a better job???

 

[Code]

Right now, the market is saturated with under-qualified, over-certified goobers.

Meaning, I put out an ad on monster for the following...
Requirements:
Linux, Red Hat & SuSe 5 years Admin experience.
BGP Routing 3 years experience
Complete understanding of OSPF
7 years Solaris administration

And I get....
3000 applicants who have less than 5 years experience in ANYTHING IT related.
2990 of whom don't know what OSPF or BGP is.
2000 of whom have never seen a router.
2900 of whom can't figure out how to do anything in linux/unix from the command line.

 

[out_at_sea]

There's already a bit of saturation

about 5 years ago, an MCSE would have payed major bank, now it is like a requirement for some jobs.

The other problem is that you have to keep upgrading your knowledge as systems change. You can't jsut learn what's in use today and roll with it, you will be obsolete in a few years.

But if you like to keep learning and are into technology, it's cool.

I'm down with IT.

Is still an MCSE certification in demand?

 

[strongsmartsexy]

Right now, the market is saturated with under-qualified, over-certified goobers.

Meaning, I put out an ad on monster for the following...
Requirements:
Linux, Red Hat & SuSe 5 years Admin experience.
BGP Routing 3 years experience
Complete understanding of OSPF
7 years Solaris administration

And I get....
3000 applicants who have less than 5 years experience in ANYTHING IT related.
2990 of whom don't know what OSPF or BGP is.
2000 of whom have never seen a router.
2900 of whom can't figure out how to do anything in linux/unix from the command line.

Oh, so they were fully MSCE certified!

 

[B0ARDIN087]

so basicly, if u graduate from a good 4 year university with and IT degree ull get a good job?

 

[Code]

Oh, so they were fully MSCE certified!

MSCE
CNE
A+
A+ Internet

It's all shit. Get a CS degree and while at school intern with a large company in their IT dept.

I've interviewed far too many "certified" people who freeze up when they are asked questions specifically related to their cert.

 

[strongsmartsexy]

MSCE
CNE
A+
A+ Internet

It's all shit. Get a CS degree and while at school intern with a large company in their IT dept.

I've interviewed far too many "certified" people who freeze up when they are asked questions specifically related to their cert.

I've hired 3 IT managers/directors in the last few years. I tell them each the same thing. You and your organization are OVERHEAD. At any point you forget that, you're fired. If anyone under you forgets that, they're fired, followed by you for not enforcing that.

IT departments that suddenly crop up as the know it all policy creation unit drives me insane. Taking the lowest common denominator knowledge and having them make coporate wide policy based on their unwillingness to do the work they're paid to do is counterproductive to a corporation.

 

[Code]

As to whether or not the niche will last?

Yes and no.

If you consider programming IT, no (unless your Irish, Israeli or Indian).

If you consider IT to be infrastructure related, both physical and logical networking. Yes. Outsourcing your infrastructure only works for firms that don't need 99.999% uptime. And there are business' out there that don't require much uptime at all.

Will it be off-shored? Not unless the off-shore firm operates during the comapny's business hours. People demand immediate repsonse from IT depts, it's on of the reasons the job sucks.

 

[Code]

The greatest tragedy of the Tech Bubble was that it allowed, even fostered, the surliness of IT staff.

I tell all my people, you are customer service. You provide your work with a smile and in a timely and courteous manner. Or you can go work at Burger King for 10 months while looking for another job.

I've hired 3 IT managers/directors in the last few yearsbbl I tell them each the same thing. You and your organization are OVERHEAD. At any point you forget that, you're fired. If anyone under you forgets that, they're fired, followed by you for not enforcing that.

IT departments that suddenly crop up as the know it all policy creation unit drives me insane. Taking the lowest common denominator knowledge and having them make coporate wide policy based on their unwillingness to do the work they're paid to do is counterproductive to a corporation.

 

[strongsmartsexy]

The greatest tragedy of the Tech Bubble was that it allowed, even fostered, the surliness of IT staff.

Well, that and the notion that people who knew HTML and Javascript were programmers.

 

[MissJanet79]

Hmm I see that IT has fallen in the past few years... it was booming in for a while...but a lot has changed. You have a lot of 20 somethings out of a job & forced to get jobs that is not IT related. You can blame places like Tata Consulting... a lot of jobs are taken by Indian workers who have an arrangement made - visas etc. & a job but they take the normally $55K-60K job at a fraction - like $30K. At my last job, the Director had Tata replace 80% of IT. You can really blame the government for that who approved it... Everything is outsourced now. Hence why the unemployment rate keeps on growing.

 

[Y_lifter]

IMO, being successful in I.T. these days almost requires a long work history in I.T.

Walking in off the street and expecting to be successfull in I.T. is rare.. (see code above)

You need to have seen all of the failures and pitfalls that have come over the years to know what to do and more important what NOT to do..

If you want to come into I.T. from another field anywhere than Entry level, I say look at Project/Program Mgmt after getting grounded in the basics of I.T. and very savy at Project/Program Management skills..

You will have a team of techies that you are driving to cost, tasks and schedule, and if you are good at that, you don't need the technical skills.
As long as you have good mid level people on your team that is..
If not then you need the history and the skills to call BS when they try to bamboozle you on what's going on with the project..

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Hmm I see that IT has fallen in the past few years... it was booming in for a while...but a lot has changed. You have a lot of 20 somethings out of a job & forced to get jobs that is not IT related. You can blame places like Tata Consulting... a lot of jobs are taken by Indian workers who have an arrangement made - visas etc. & a job but they take the normally $55K-60K job at a fraction - like $30K. At my last job, the Director had Tata replace 80% of IT. You can really blame the government for that who approved it... Everything is outsourced now. Hence why the unemployment rate keeps on growing.

Yeah, or you could "blame" market forces for realzing that a job was overpaid...followed by the ensuing correction.

 

[Code]

See, this is the problem with most folks. You simply cannot outsource infrastructure. Programmers != IT.

Hmm I see that IT has fallen in the past few years... it was booming in for a while...but a lot has changed. You have a lot of 20 somethings out of a job & forced to get jobs that is not IT related. You can blame places like Tata Consulting... a lot of jobs are taken by Indian workers who have an arrangement made - visas etc. & a job but they take the normally $55K-60K job at a fraction - like $30K. At my last job, the Director had Tata replace 80% of IT. You can really blame the government for that who approved it... Everything is outsourced now. Hence why the unemployment rate keeps on growing.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Right now, the market is saturated with under-qualified, over-certified goobers.

Meaning, I put out an ad on monster for the following...
Requirements:
Linux, Red Hat & SuSe 5 years Admin experience.
BGP Routing 3 years experience
Complete understanding of OSPF
7 years Solaris administration

And I get....
3000 applicants who have less than 5 years experience in ANYTHING IT related.
2990 of whom don't know what OSPF or BGP is.
2000 of whom have never seen a router.
2900 of whom can't figure out how to do anything in linux/unix from the command line.

Thats becuase most of the IT industry dosen't use Linux\unix. As far as OSPF and BGP, I would say the market for communications equipment engineers is hot because there still aren't a lot around that know their stuff. And if they do your going to have to pay six figures to get them.

 

[Code]

Thats becuase most of the IT industry dosen't use Linux\unix.

HUH?!?!

As far as OSPF and BGP, I would say the market for communications equipment engineers is hot because there still aren't a lot around that know their stuff. And if they do your going to have to pay six figures to get them.

Yes, it is hard to find someone proficient in BGP and OSPF. And Yes, it's a six figure position.

 

[strongsmartsexy]

Yes, it is hard to find someone proficient in BGP and OSPF. And Yes, it's a six figure position.

So are Oracle DBAdmins *shudder*

 

[Code]

So are Oracle DBAdmins *shudder*

Now THAT you can outsource Wicked cheap.

I have a PhD CS, Oracle DB admin I pay 11 bucks an hour in the Philippines.

 

[strongsmartsexy]

Now THAT you can outsource Wicked cheap.

I have a PhD CS, Oracle DB admin I pay 11 bucks an hour in the Philippines.

If we were doing any more Oracle stuff I'd hit you up. But as it is most of the folks I do work with canned Oracle in favor of MS's DB and or postgresql.

 

[Code]

I'm not usually a fan of outsourcing. But in this case, we have an office in the philippines already, and we do our data processing there. Just felt natural to have the DB co-located there and get an DB admin on site there.

If we were doing any more Oracle stuff I'd hit you up. But as it is most of the folks I do work with canned Oracle in favor of MS's DB and or postgresql.

 

[strongsmartsexy]

I'm not usually a fan of outsourcing. But in this case, we have an office in the philippines already, and we do our data processing there. Just felt natural to have the DB co-located there and get an DB admin on site there.

I can absolutely grok that! I've done outsource programming at a couple of previous companies. And have also watched "comptetive" products appear out of nowhere that were surprisingly similar... Any mathematicians here?

 

[Code]

I used to do a LOT of mathematics in my old job. But that was like 5 years ago.

I can absolutely grok that! I've done outsource programming at a couple of previous companies. And have also watched "comptetive" products appear out of nowhere that were surprisingly similar... Any mathematicians here?

 

[strongsmartsexy]

I used to do a LOT of mathematics in my old job. But that was like 5 years ago.

Um, errrr, "Swing and a miss!"

Take off the serious glasses and put on the jaded glasses.

 

[mordy]

Hey Code, would you hire me? I have 3 1/2 years switch/router software developement on leading edge devices. Worked on many areas including layer 2, driver level software, microcode, MPLS type services. I'm not a BGP OSPF guru, but i can become one quickly

 

[Lestat]

There will always be some IT jobs.

I work in IT. I have a Masters in Telecommunications.. I took classes on web design, Data Base Admin, etc.. I now specialize in business intelligence..a fancy way of saying reporting. I could get a job almost anywhere with my formal education and experience. (5+ yrs at a fortune 500 company).

 

[Code]

One of the interview tests involves hacking layer 2 to get access to servers behind a switch.
Think you can do it?

But honestly, I'm not looking for a guru of BGP/OSPF, just someone who knows the ins and outs of it. Knows the peering layers really well.

Hey Code, would you hire me? I have 3 1/2 years switch/router software developement on leading edge devices. Worked on many areas including layer 2, driver level software, microcode, MPLS type services. I'm not a BGP OSPF guru, but i can become one quickly

 

[Lumberg]

I've hired 3 IT managers/directors in the last few years. I tell them each the same thing. You and your organization are OVERHEAD. At any point you forget that, you're fired. If anyone under you forgets that, they're fired, followed by you for not enforcing that.

IT departments that suddenly crop up as the know it all policy creation unit drives me insane. Taking the lowest common denominator knowledge and having them make coporate wide policy based on their unwillingness to do the work they're paid to do is counterproductive to a corporation.

I'm in IT and I am trying to jump to a line division ASAP for that exact reason.

We are in the same category as support services (ie maintenance and custodial workers).

 

[mordy]

thats a pretty general description of a challenge. Is there authentication? tagged VLANs? learn security?

 

[Lumberg]

Mathematicians are more desirable than CS majors I have heard.

I agree with whoever said get a BS in CS and do internships.

 

[strongsmartsexy]

I'm in IT and I am trying to jump to a line division ASAP for that exact reason.

We are in the same category as support services (ie maintenance and custodial workers).

That is because that job is INTERNAL Customer Support.

 

[Code]

A managed switch, straddling two subnets. Class A to Class C. Both subnets are common criteria compliant.
Authentication is Xradius.
The challenge isn't to gain access to the servers, simply to see how far you can get using ONLY layer 2 hacks.

There are two challenges, most people simply say they can't do either.

Write a perl script to hijack an SSL session.

thats a pretty general description of a challenge. Is there authentication? tagged VLANs? learn security?

 

[Razorguns]

Okay let me tell you about it. This is from someone who started from a Commodore Vic-20, C64, IBM XT, DOS Assembly, Windows C Libraries, MFC, DBase IV, SQL, and now .NET/ASP. So i've seen it all..:

First of all, the arrogance and greed of IT folks these days (and in the past) is freakin' annoying. Just BECAUSE you sit behind a desk, and wear a tie doesn't entitle you to $80k or $110k a year. Somewhere, SOMEONE in the company has to f'n earn the money to pay your over-inflated revenue. And it sure ain't you writing your little code drinking your starbucks that's gonna do it. It'll probably be some over-worked, sweaty sales guys, bustin' his ass trying to secure the $800,000 contract just to pay your overpaid ass for the next year.

I tell IT folks -- you're an EXPENSE to the company. The purpose of expenses is to CUT THEM. Unless you work at a gaming company, where your IT Development is your CORE revenue stream -- just be happy with what you have.

Yes back in 1983, IT was very technical. It required machine language type scientific skills. Speciailized training and knowledge. But nowadays, you can pick up a simple book and be a master in 7 days. Any monkey can go write a c/s app that hits a database.

We're paying $75k for a job here. In the IT field in today's market that's a LOT for a programmer f/t. What have we got out of 3 offers?

1) I need more time (want to keep interviewing, seeking more)
2) I want more money
3) Turns it down, now changes mind and wants it.

Good f'n lord. Do these people know I can say screw you all -- go to Tata or Wipro and get some L1 indian to come work for us for $40k?? it's freakin' PROGRAMMING. There's 10,000 unemployed IT guys. I can get a Canadian to run down here to do the job by next week.

They're all greedy. They want the most amount of money and they think their skills are impossible to find. And when manager's treat that same greed with the respect it deserves (ie: outsource to save THEM money) -- then they're the first ones to bitch.

Even when I was a simple programmer -- i did my best to provide the BEST for my company. I *earned* my pay, to the best i can for the cmpany. So i was never just an *expense*. I even helped create initiaves that generated REVENUE for the company.

IT is replacable. Knowledge is global. Positions are interchangeable. Nowhere does it say IT has to pay upper 5 figures. It doesn't. You want $40/hr. I can find $12/hr elsewhere. WHO do you thik i'll hire.

Outsourcing is not just for the bottom line -- it's also because it's needed. High salaries are never a *RIGHT* in this country. You have to EARN it and PROVE it to a company to get it.

And don't forget Loyalty. We've kept guys on who've stayed during the high teams on low salaries. Companies WILL repay loyal employees back. Ship jumpers get little sympathy on my part.

 

[Code]

Again, more people confusing IT with programmers.

Everyone except sales is overhead.

Okay let me tell you about it. This is from someone who started from a Commodore Vic-20, C64, IBM XT, DOS Assembly, Windows C Libraries, MFC, DBase IV, SQL, and now .NET/ASP. So i've seen it all..:

First of all, the arrogance and greed of IT folks these days (and in the past) is freakin' annoying. Just BECAUSE you sit behind a desk, and wear a tie doesn't entitle you to $80k or $110k a year. Somewhere, SOMEONE in the company has to f'n earn the money to pay your over-inflated revenue. And it sure ain't you writing your little code drinking your starbucks that's gonna do it. It'll probably be some over-worked, sweaty sales guys, bustin' his ass trying to secure the $800,000 contract just to pay your overpaid ass for the next year.

I tell IT folks -- you're an EXPENSE to the company. The purpose of expenses is to CUT THEM. Unless you work at a gaming company, where your IT Development is your CORE revenue stream -- just be happy with what you have.

Yes back in 1983, IT was very technical. It required machine language type scientific skills. Speciailized training and knowledge. But nowadays, you can pick up a simple book and be a master in 7 days. Any monkey can go write a c/s app that hits a database.

We're paying $75k for a job here. In the IT field in today's market that's a LOT for a programmer f/t. What have we got out of 3 offers?

1) I need more time (want to keep interviewing, seeking more)
2) I want more money
3) Turns it down, now changes mind and wants it.

Good f'n lord. Do these people know I can say screw you all -- go to Tata or Wipro and get some L1 indian to come work for us for $40k?? it's freakin' PROGRAMMING. There's 10,000 unemployed IT guys. I can get a Canadian to run down here to do the job by next week.

They're all greedy. They want the most amount of money and they think their skills are impossible to find. And when manager's treat that same greed with the respect it deserves (ie: outsource to save THEM money) -- then they're the first ones to bitch.

Even when I was a simple programmer -- i did my best to provide the BEST for my company. I *earned* my pay, to the best i can for the cmpany. So i was never just an *expense*. I even helped create initiaves that generated REVENUE for the company.

IT is replacable. Knowledge is global. Positions are interchangeable. Nowhere does it say IT has to pay upper 5 figures. It doesn't. You want $40/hr. I can find $12/hr elsewhere. WHO do you thik i'll hire.

Outsourcing is not just for the bottom line -- it's also because it's needed. High salaries are never a *RIGHT* in this country. You have to EARN it and PROVE it to a company to get it.

And don't forget Loyalty. We've kept guys on who've stayed during the high teams on low salaries. Companies WILL repay loyal employees back. Ship jumpers get little sympathy on my part.

 

[mordy]

Those are hard interview questions. Dang. I have ideas (guesses) but no concrete methods.

you can't really mimic authenticated hosts, so maybe flood arps on various tagged vlans, see if anythings common and unauthenticated. Maybe theres a ip phone system on its own vlan.

highjack ssh? maybe by changing output to a diff terminal. i dunno.

Security is not my area of specialty.

 

[Code]

The whole concept of both questions, isn't really to see if they can do it. But to find out two things:

1.) The candidate's ability to troubleshoot and think through a problem.

2.) The candidate's knowledge of layer 2.

Those are hard interview questions. Dang. I have ideas (guesses) but no concrete methods.

you can't really mimic authenticated hosts, so maybe flood arps on various tagged vlans, see if anythings common and unauthenticated. Maybe theres a ip phone system on its own vlan.

highjack ssh? maybe by changing output to a diff terminal. i dunno.

Security is not my area of specialty.

 

[Apöllo]

I know how to work Windows XP.

 

[mordy]

The whole concept of both questions, isn't really to see if they can do it. But to find out two things:

1.) The candidate's ability to troubleshoot and think through a problem.

2.) The candidate's knowledge of layer 2.

In that respect they are good questions. I'd probably do better at showing my knowledge as to why they are hard to solve, but i don't have time to type that out hehe.

 

[out_at_sea]

I used to do a LOT of mathematics in my old job. But that was like 5 years ago.

I may go back to my old pimpin' job.....doesnt require lot of math ....

 

[ProtienFiend]

Mathematicians are more desirable than CS majors I have heard.

I agree with whoever said get a BS in CS and do internships.

Wheres good to intern? IBM?

I have weekly opportunities to intern there...

 

[EnderJE]

First of all, the arrogance and greed of IT folks these days (and in the past) is freakin' annoying.
...
I tell IT folks -- you're an EXPENSE to the company. The purpose of expenses is to CUT THEM.

How is this different from other departments? HR can be outsourced. Product Forecasting / Replenishment can be outsouced. Transportation Planning can be outsourced. Marketing can be outsourced. The physical picking / packing / shipping of product can be given to a third party logistics provider.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I just think that everyone can be outsourced.

 

[mordy]

How is this different from other departments? HR can be outsourced. Product Forecasting / Replenishment can be outsouced. Transportation Planning can be outsourced. Marketing can be outsourced. The physical picking / packing / shipping of product can be given to a third party logistics provider.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I just think that everyone can be outsourced.

Then you don't have a company.

 

[Lumberg]

Wheres good to intern? IBM?

I have weekly opportunities to intern there...

Definitely.

Basically any of the big IT companies and also It departments in very well known companies like say an insurance company or General Motors.

 

[almost-pro]

open shortest path first and border gateway protocols, or something to that effect. i agree with someone earlier in this post who said that your work history and experience determine pay in the IT field. Its not like it use to be. Certs don't mean shit anymore and u gotta work your way up slowly.

 

[DcupSheepNipples]

Sorry man nothing lasts forever except diseased beaver! It's been here since the dawn of man and will continue to haunt our love muscles untill the end of time!

 

[B0ARDIN087]

I'm not usually a fan of outsourcing. But in this case, we have an office in the philippines already, and we do our data processing there. Just felt natural to have the DB co-located there and get an DB admin on site there.

hehe when i graduate from case western wanna hire me in all seriousness im looking to go there next year and do thier accellerated masters in IT and management. sound like a good plan or no? lemme know

 

[Lestat]

Everyone except sales is overhead.

I'm sorry man, but I can't really respect any of your opinions on this thread if that is truly what you believe.

We have a LOT more non-overhead personel in my company then just sales. Who do you think is DESIGNING, DEVELOPING, and TESTING our products?

 

[Jay Sean Juggy D]

Right, but the product can't "move" itself , can it?!!!!!!

 

[Razorguns]

>Who do you think is DESIGNING, DEVELOPING, and TESTING our products?

They all fit into the category of "production". All elements of production can be replaced, modified, tinkered, etc.

However, the folks who actually TRANSFORM that product into cold hard CASH (profit) are the most important parts of the organization.

What's the purpose of a great product, if it's just sitting there on a shelf in a warehouse. It's all the #1 reason why work-at-home schemes fail. People buy into this "let me paint great pictures at home, and create great widgets, and SOMEHOW i'll make millions". Then they paint the pictures, and forget the big part. How they're going to get money now. Welcome to the world of sales, marketing, distribution and management. The parts of the company that can make or break it. You can't outsource that shit to habib.

I try to teach this phiosophy to bands all the time to no avail. They spend all their time "creating the greatest songs in the world". Then they get pissed cuz they're not signed and playing in front of millions. I almost have to teach them a 40 hour course on how the rest of the "music world" works.

 

[Code]

The new idea(and process of making one) of a new(or better) product, is not a revenue earner. In fact, it's more of a risk than, say hiring an IT employee.

R&D is indeed overhead.

I'm sorry man, but I can't really respect any of your opinions on this thread if that is truly what you believe.

We have a LOT more non-overhead personel in my company then just sales. Who do you think is DESIGNING, DEVELOPING, and TESTING our products?