Is there a specific insulin level at which anabolism is triggered?

[SteelWeaver]

I remember W6 saying there wasn't much point in less than about 100g carbs post workout because enough of an insulin spike couldn't be created with less. Is that correct, and if that is so, what is the insulin level at which anabolism is triggered? Is it different in each person? IS there a specific level?

Oh, wait, I suppose is IS different in each person because of different degrees of insulin resistance, right? In that case, is building muscle HARDER for those with insulin resistance?

 

[naturally anabolic]

Insulin as a whole provides anabolism at varying levels dependent on the person and there resistance to it, there is not a set level at which Insulin causes anabolism atleast nothing i have found in any study for one person using 1IU of insulin may be plenty while another may require 10IU's to achieve the same effect .

It would be my opinion that those who are more insulin resistant would have a tougher time building muscle because of the fact they are at a disadvantage of using insulins ability to increase glucose storage at the rate someone who is not as resistant would be.

that is my 2 cents on the issue

 

[MS]

Agree with naturally anabolic. I also personally think that postworkout it is less critical to 'spike' insulin to create anabolism. This is because the body is more receptive to insulin-independant glucose uptake. This is the single BIGGEST reason that intense exercise is even MORE important for insulin resistant folks. There are other ways to get glucose into muscles besides hammering them with insulin when they're not listening, though the biggest anabolic environment wll be created by high insulin, good insulin sensitivity, high blood glucose AND good insulin independant glucose uptake.

 

[wilson6]

100 grams of pure glucose or maltodextrin will give most a near maximal increase in insulin, but I'm less worried about insulin post-wo unless you're an endurance athlete and are glycogen depleted. For resistance athletes, even a heavy leg session will only use about 35 - 40% of muscle glycogen that will replaced to some extent from elevated blood glucose, lactate, etc. I prefer to make sure you get essential AAs in before and after the workout. That is what seems to be important for protein synthesis following resistance exercise. It doesn't take much either. 10 - 20 grams pre and post is enough. Of course, followed up with a high protein MEAL (not drink) before going to bed.

W6

 

[wilson6]

and.......that comment was probably related to creatine/insulin post-workout, not insulin and anabolism.

To enhance creatine uptake, it takes about 100 g of glucose to get the insulin high enough to make a difference, thus just adding creatine to some fruit juice isn't going to do it, and that high a dose of glucose isn't something you'd probably want unless you were glycogen depleted.

W6

 

[JJFigure]

Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly do you mean by essential AAs? The full gambit, or just BCAAs? In other words, should I be drinking a protein shake + creatine, or just take BCAAs, or some combination of them all?

I have to admit, this is the area I seem to find the most conflicting info and experiences.

 

[SteelWeaver]

Cool, thanks! Er, actually, I think you're right, W6 - it may have been about creatine. While on the topic, though, let's say one doesn't eat a whole lot of carbs, esp. not as many as 100g at one sitting ... how much of the creatine they're taking is actually being absorbed? It appears that there wouln't be much point in creatine supplementation if one's on, say, a total of 150g carbs a day, unless you took them all at the same time.

About insulin-independent glucose uptake - what governs the ratio of insulin-dependent vs. insulin-independent uptake? Is there a certain average ratio, or is this totally individual? What would be the norm? And if intense exercise is a way to improve insulin sensitivity, is there a way to improve insulin-independent glucose uptake?

Just interested. (And it's been a while since I dropped a ton of questions on the board )

 

[wilson6]

JJ,

Time for some student directed learning again. Your assignment is to look up the 9 essential AAs are and list them, and list the names of the BCAAs. Easy stuff for a net search.

and...yes essentials are the key, see below abstract.

Steel

Intense exercise is what stimulates insulin-independent glucose uptake by increasing GLUT-4 mobilization. The issue of the ratio of dependent vs independent is multifactorial and complex.

Title
Essential amino acids and muscle protein recovery from resistance exercise.

Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab vol. 283, no. 4 (2002 Oct): E648-57.

Abstract

This study tests the hypothesis that a dose of 6 g of orally administered essential amino acids (EAAs) stimulates net muscle protein balance in healthy volunteers when consumed 1 and 2 h after resistance exercise. Subjects received a primed constant infusion of L-[(2)H(5)]phenylalanine and L-[1-(13)C]leucine. Samples from femoral artery and vein and biopsies from vastus lateralis were obtained. Arterial EAA concentrations increased severalfold after drinks. Net muscle protein balance (NB) increased proportionally more than arterial AA concentrations in response to drinks, and it returned rapidly to basal values when AA concentrations decreased. Area under the curve for net phenylalanine uptake above basal value was similar for the first hour after each drink (67 +/- 17 vs. 77 +/- 20 mg/leg, respectively). Because the NB response was double the response to two doses of a mixture of 3 g of EAA + 3 g of nonessential AA (NEAA) (14), we conclude that NEAA are not necessary for stimulation of NB and that there is a dose-dependent effect of EAA ingestion on muscle protein synthesis.

 

[JJFigure]

BCAAs are leucine, isoleucine, and valine.
EAAs are isoleucine, leucine, valine, lysine, methionine, phenylalanine, threonine, and tryptophan.

I knew BCAAs were essential amino acids - just three of them though. That's why my question - I guess I was wondering which of the essential amino acids were more important. Your abstract answered that one. Thanks!

Now, on the same subject - this study administered AAs post workout - what about pre-workout? Is 12 grams post workout a viable dosage (assuming they meant 6 grams both 1 hr and 2 hrs post workout)?

 

[wilson6]

Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 281: E197-E206, 2001;

Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise

Kevin D. Tipton1,2, Blake B. Rasmussen1,2, Sharon L. Miller1,2, Steven E. Wolf1, Sharla K. Owens-Stovall1, Bart E. Petrini1, and Robert R. Wolfe1,2

The present study was designed to determine whether consumption of an oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement (EAC) before exercise results in a greater anabolic response than supplementation after resistance exercise. Six healthy human subjects participated in two trials in random order, PRE (EAC consumed immediately before exercise), and POST (EAC consumed immediately after exercise). A primed, continuous infusion of L-[ring-2H5]phenylalanine, femoral arteriovenous catheterization, and muscle biopsies from the vastus lateralis were used to determine phenylalanine concentrations, enrichments, and net uptake across the leg. Blood and muscle phenylalanine concentrations were increased by ~130% after drink consumption in both trials. Amino acid delivery to the leg was increased during exercise and remained elevated for the 2 h after exercise in both trials. Delivery of amino acids (amino acid concentration times blood flow) was significantly greater in PRE than in POST during the exercise bout and in the 1st h after exercise (P < 0.05). Total net phenylalanine uptake across the leg was greater (P = 0.0002) during PRE (209 ± 42 mg) than during POST (81 ± 19). Phenylalanine disappearance rate, an indicator of muscle protein synthesis from blood amino acids, increased after EAC consumption in both trials. These results indicate that the response of net muscle protein synthesis to consumption of an EAC solution immediately before resistance exercise is greater than that when the solution is consumed after exercise, primarily because of an increase in muscle protein synthesis as a result of increased delivery of amino acids to the leg.